527 posts • joined 30 Dec 2011
Yes, with VAT carousel, it could be either one 2 companies who bought and sold the goods onwards before you who committed the fraud, or one of the 2 companies who bought and sold the goods on after you sold them that could have committed the fraud.
Analogy, I could sell a crow bar today to a wholesaler, who a week later sells it to a building firm, who a week later gives it to one of their employees who uses it to break into a house. By HMRCs reasoning I didn't perform due-diligence that the end user wasn't going to be a criminal, and as proof they point to the use of the crow bar by a criminal ergo due-diligence couldn't have been performed. HMRC tend to use the same carousel reasoning when they decide who is guilty of carousel fraud.
All is not lost. The purpose of the tax tribunal is to always find in favour of HMRC so no real shock there. Real court however, where this will now appeal to, has a much higher bar when it comes to the burden of proof of intent. It's real court where the majority of carousel fraud cases fall down simply because the prosecution have rarely been able to prove that you can know what is going to happen to goods, once they are out of your possession, two or more transactions down the line, and sometimes the criminals just need a third party to buy and sell the goods on legitimately to complete the loop.
So what happens if...
A Morrison’s cleaner decides one day to take his mop, and bludgeon shoppers to death with it in store. Has the outcome for Morrison’s changed because of the degree of criminal behaviour.
I read this, then came up with the question, is the universe expanding, or are we shrinking within it?
Re: chemical plant?
I was thinking either ICL or Astra Zeneca from the given year.
Re: Sage 50!
It's correct. Sage 50 was for the small business, 200 was for the enterprise. However, I'm now thinking I meant Sage 100. It's been about a decade now and all I can remember is it was black and green and beeped like crazy.
Re: Sage 50!
Sage 200 was worse. It's dialogues produced a beep using the PC speaker. The only problem was that for the duration of the beep, there was no computer activity possible including keyboard buffering. We used to have touch typists that would be screwed up by the beep. If the beep didn't occur, they could enter an order without looking at the screen, they had all the sequences and key presses memorised, but at each beep they had to look at the screen to see how far through they had got, and how far back they had to rewind to carry on. The answer to the dialogue was always the same. We solved the problem by replacing it with Navision.
You’re all missing the point.
Remeber the Atos disability assessments were intended not to ensure that those with genuine disability retained obtained the correct benefits, but rather to remove as many people as possible, for as long as possible from any payments to relieve the public purse.
In the same way this system is working as intended by those at the top. 7000 annual salaries coming out of the coffers instead of 100000 salaries is the desired result. A one off payment to Capita of £50m for a job well done in saving £1.7bn is to be commended. Public servants the lot of them.
New Zealand border cops warn travelers that without handing over electronic passwords 'You shall not pass!'
Re: Mission Creep
And yet everyone forgets, Frodo ended up simply walking into Mordor!
I’m thinking maybe they should just pay someone anonymous to start a fire at the rear entrance while the CCTV is conspicuously down, that forces all the building occupants to be evacuated.
If assange still refuses to leave, then I’m sure that “firemen” are more than willing to administer a knockout gas mask, I mean an oxygen gas mask when they find his lifeless body inside, while they perform their fire fighting duties.
Come on, surely someone else has already thought of this? MI5? MI6? Special Branch? My old dinner ladies maybe?
"how are the ICO going to enforce the GDPR against a Canadian company?"
This is going to be a very unpopular answer, but, first of all I'll do what no other commentard on this topic has ever done, and post chapter and verse of the actual law rather than say, spout bollocks about how EU law applies abroad, or that to do business in the EU you must adhere to the GDPR:-
Enforcement Outside EU: Chapter 5 of the GDPR relates to handling of data by non-member countries or organizations. The relevant text relating to enforcement of fines is from Article 50, titled "International cooperation for the protection of personal data":
(1) In relation to third countries and international organisations, the Commission and supervisory authorities shall take appropriate steps to:
a) develop international cooperation mechanisms to facilitate the effective enforcement of legislation for the protection of personal data;
b) provide international mutual assistance in the enforcement of legislation for the protection of personal data, including through notification, complaint referral, investigative assistance and information exchange, subject to appropriate safeguards for the protection of personal data and other fundamental rights and freedoms;
c) engage relevant stakeholders in discussion and activities aimed at furthering international cooperation in the enforcement of legislation for the protection of personal data;
d) promote the exchange and documentation of personal data protection legislation and practice, including on jurisdictional conflicts with third countries.
So, to answer your question, they haven't a hope in hell.
Section 1a) says they will need to negotiate new agreements with other countries, so we can prosecute their citizens.
b) We'll offer to help other countries let us prosecute their citizens.
c) Ask nicely if we can prosecute their citizens,
and d) if all else fails, keep telling everyone involved what a great idea it would be if other countries would let us prosecute their citizens.
“I Presume that it is the fact that Ireland is playing he long game”
I presume it’s more likely that Ireland was participating in a long con!
Given the effective rate of tax for Apple prior to the investigation was 0.005%, I think that for Ireland to receive an equivalent 14 billion euros in tax revenue, they would have had to wait decades if not never.
Has any official source compared the current windfall to projected income had the state of affairs not changed. Including the cost of brown envelopes of course!
The same goes for Brexit. There seems to be a myth that because the UK voted to brexit, we have to go ahead with it end of discussion. Even if the referendum was legally binding (which it wasn't, but that's another story) it can be overturned simply by holding another referendum. A democracy can overturn any previous decision, simply by following the democratic process. Some of the people I hear on the news that state "the people have spoken, the government must carry their wishes out" are forgetting that in a democracy, the people can change their minds, otherwise we would have political parties that once in power, couldn't be voted out.
If another referendum was held now (lets just say it's a legally binding one to keep it simple) and the result of that referendum was to remain, then the previous decision to leave has no legal standing.
I think our government may just decide to hold another referendum if things are looking messy so business can carry on as normal. Better the devil you know than the one you don't.
“Given that we've already enacted GDPR into British law in the form of the Data Protection Act 2018, they're in for a shock.”
You’re forgetting that once we’re brexited, then a single Act of Parliament can repeal any EU legislation previously enacted using wording as simple as “Act of Parliament xxxxxxxx is now repealed this date of xxx of yyy year zzzz.”
As a sovereign nation any legislation or agreement we’ve entered into with other nations can simply be repealed by our democratically elected parliament.
Re: Penny pinching boss
I bought a Minolta CF900 around that time for about £19K with Fiery and A4 + A3 tray.
Re: Not the root problem
“Exposing your source code shouldn't be an issue, because your code should survive inspection”
I do recall a long time ago the architects of a large military base making the same assumption, the sheer power and technological supremacy of the base would render any weakness inconsequential.
Shortly after construction of the base, but before it became fully operational, a copy of the plans leaked, and a small group of non-conformists examined the blueprints discovered an exploit. Before they new it some farmer kid who had spent his teenage years bulls-eyeing womp rats came along and dropped a missile into an exhaust pipe that was only 2 meters wide, destroying the base in its entirety.
If only the architects had followed best practice in securing the design of the base, things would have turned out quite differently!
In other news, mega corporations around the world follow the Wayback Machines procedure as covered in the FAQ for purging all historical snapshots of their websites.
Re: Phones too
We have a period of several years where all our sales dept kept breaking their phones, and getting new ones on the insurance we were paying a premium for. Eventually we said enough is enough and sent round an email saying we were cancelling the insurance, everyone was responsible for keeping their hardware in good working order, and that we would be deducting from their wages the cost to replace them. We also provided Otterbox cases throughout, so there was no likelyhood of accidental breakage by dropping.
No-one believed it and many phones were removed from the cases because they didn't look good.... until the first breakage occurred, and sure enough he got a brand new latest model phone, and the cost deducted from his wage. Suddenly all the phones were back in their cases and we never had another breakage. Saved a fortune in yearly insurance.
Re: No Benchmarks
Within the UK that has already happened. A court ruled that the right to review outweighed the contractual clause forbidding it. I’m struggling to find it at the moment, but I’ll persist.
Can we please have the same for Google and Apple? Pretty please!
Re: I'm unexpectedly impressed
I pretty much came to the same conclusion, the pre and over hype hasn't done it any favours, but to someone born in the 70s when Robbie the Robot and Twiki was amazing, it's a lot of neat real tech in a pair of goggles.
Re: My carefully curated online presence
“Or if the BBC deleted the Dr. Who tapes because they wanted to reuse them?”
Or if Warner Brothers lost the Babylon 5 HD master tapes because they just didn’t care!
This happens so frequently that one of the first troubleshooting questions the helpdesk now asks clients is "could you check with your accountant if your hosting invoices have been paid up to date."
The answer is always an immediate "Yes it has", but half an hour later invariably we get a "the credit card expired" call back.
Re: No-one will ever...
“ long transparent crystals. That would be cool.”
I had a thought the other day, suppose a civilisation advanced enough that it could store data in stone tablets rather than crystals. Stone tablets always seem to survive the civilisations that created them and are always being unearthed in archaeological digs thousands of years later. I feel a sci-if story coming on.
Re: I don't understand why they need it
“Million to one”.
Yes but as any fule know, million to one chances happen 9 times out of 10!
Re: I've got a bad feeling about this.
I’m still holding out for the original Duke Nukem Forever. I’ll pretend that the hastily-cobbled-together-replacement never happened.
So good they commented it twice!
Who made this comment? Stu Wilson or Anonymous Coward? :p
"The Odeon in Preston is just terribly cold"
Try the Vue on Capitol Way instead of trapsing all the way to the Trafford. Every seat is a big reclining leather seat with tray-table. Oh and call in at the Waitrose next door for the sweets and snacks for 30% the Vue cost!
Re: Can you live/work in Holland just using English?
I worked there for a few years and never needed to learn the language. Everyone I met spoke perfect English. There is 2 types of English accent over there. American and Manchester. Which accent you have depends on the TV programmes you watch. If you have an American accent then it’s because you watch US sitcoms. If you have a Manchester accent, it’s because you watch Coronation Street. The Northwest “Granada” ITV channel was shown over there.
Re: Anybody who says their sapphire watch face scratched
“Tungsten carbide is a ceramic, not a metal”
Genuine question. Why is Iron alloyed with Carbon a metal (carbon steel) but Tungsten alloyed with Carbon a ceramic?
Re: Big red ball?
I'm actually surprised that the 2 week long fire on Winter Hill didn't knock out any communications. Here's a pic showing how close the fire got to the transmission tower goo.gl/ajskPr
For those not from Manchester, an area of about 4sq miles of parched moorland was burning for a couple of weeks until it rained last week resulting in the hill disappearing in a cloud of smokey mist. I drove up as close as the road blocks when it started raining, it smelt like a damp barbeque!
An Amazon spokeswoman told us...
..."I can confirm the statement from Cisco is accurate."
A line that will be maintained right up until the press conference where said switch is revealed!
I've been in this job too long :)
If they are struggling to report themselves, I’m sure there a few competent people on here that can do it for them.
Re: At least...
Where the i sounds as it does in “is”
At lease it was at my school. And Nike was pronounced like “Mike”, none of this Nik-ee rubbish.
Re: Really small systems
“I do have a casual use system in the bedroom ”
Along with some baby oil and a box of tissues?
How do I find out if i’ve been pwned?
Only if it’s reported and investigated!
If you are a business, yes it does, otherwise it’s fair use.
Re: why an extra 2 week extension...
That's just someone trying to get their product to show up when someone searches for Vega.
Re: It'll Never Happen
“For modern mega containerships and tankers, they already have the crew at bare minimum and it's mostly to check on the cargo.“
Suggest you watch the documentary about Emma Maersk. It was brand new yet something was and still is always breaking down almost daily. The maintenance crews are constantly needed.
Re: This will go nowhere in court...
I do believe this will be the purpose of the court case. Until a law has it's day in court, everything anyone says (including reg commentards) is opinion and speculation.
I feel obliged to point out yet again, that if a US company has no presence in the EU (i.e. an office) then it can feel free to ignore the GDPR and stick it's middle finger up at the ICO.
The GDPR is a law that only applies to entities within EU borders.
Re: Liquidate company to avoid paying
Where the ICO originally went wrong was the procedure it followed with companies attempting to liquidate voluntarily. There is a process where the ICO can force a stop to the voluntary liquidation, an administrator is brought in, and following an investigation of the administrator the director banned from starting another company within X years.
Only recently has the ICO started to do this and is now getting better results.
“And no one knows why”...
Of course they do. As long as IPV4 works without visible consequence, it will be used.
Only when things noticeably stop working will the rest of us grudgingly act.
The same happened with Netbeui and Windows networking. It was only when the internet became a thing and the visible consequence of using Netbeui was “no internet access for you” did small businesses make the effort to switch. Ditto to IPX on Novell networks.
Re: Ignorance of the law is not a defence...
I’ve partly changed my mind on the above, but only because I’ve spent the last 2 hours reading up on the workings of the First Tier Tribunal. It looks like right to trial by a jury of your peers has been abandoned for tax cases. I think that there is sufficient case for Aria to appeal due to the tribunal being incorrect on a point of law, but, I feel that only companies or persons with large enough pockets could afford to go down this route.
TLDR: the law it appears has been changed in favour of HMRC process because it appears the courts are too dumb to understand all these complex tax rules, and heck, HMRC must know what it is doing because it makes the rules, so simples!
Re: Ignorance of the law is not a defence...
As much as HMRC would not like this to be known, HMRC whilst an agency of government, it is not a court of law. Only a court can determine if the law has been broken.
The situation Aria finds itself in now, is that HMRC has determined that tax is due. This is it's purpose, it is the collector of tax. HMRCs determination however has no more legal standing than an opinion. It is a very highly regarded opinion within government, but it is still simply an opinion. If HMRC wishes to enforce it's determination, it must get a court order to do so, i.e. Aria must stand trial in court for tax evasion.
At this point in time today Aria is innocent of all charges (because there are non legally brought yet), and HMRC is simply following HMRC procedure that in theory is supposed to save the courts time.
At some point HMRC having exhausted all other avenues of revenue collection will take Aria to court. Up until this happens, the burden of proof at each stage of HMRC process is upon Aria to prove it's innocence. Again I'll say that HMRC is not a court, so the normal burden of proof such as innocent unless proven guilty is irrelevant at this point.
Once a court case is brought, the burden of proof changes. HMRC has lost many VAT carousel cases simply because it cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant wilfully committed tax fraud. By law, the burden of proof is placed upon HMRC to prove it's case, not Aria to prove it's innocence. However, if Aria accepts HMRCs determination before a court case, and pays the bill. It cannot appeal later regardless of truth.
I believe that El Reg is misleading the average-Joe reader via carefully crafted headlines into believing Aria is committing tax fraud. At most El Reg's actions have successfully resulted in a situation that non-criminal tribunal cases (i.e. procedural cases that if contested eventually lead up to a true court case) should be performed openly and not secretively and can be reported about.
I could go on for another few pages but instead:- TLDR. Aria are at another step in a long line of HMRC processes designed to get them to part with their cash prior to an actual criminal court case, in much the same way that dodgy debt collectors persue you relentlessly, constantly hoping you pay before a court says you don't have to.
Oh and at some point, a court decide that this process should be open to public scrutiny, and El Reg have taken credit. When did El Reg move to San Francisco?
Re: The particular issue around Open Source licensing
"IANAL but (at least in the UK) EULAs are not legally binding."
That is an assumption. It has never been tested in court.
Really they were just across the road ;-)
Obligatory Father Ted link https://youtu.be/MMiKyfd6hA0
Hey! Don’t go giving out the code to my luggage!!!