Posts by codejunky

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@Dr_N

"I'm saying that only a top 5%* elite can afford to move house to get better services like broadband, easy access to transport and education for their little darlings."

And I think that is total bull crap. Some people dont want to move, some dont have the means and yet we are talking about them wanting super fast internet. Considering houses get sold and people move house it is surely common sense to look for the facilities you want when you move.

"*Actual value may vary. Could be 5%, could be 1%. Could be 10%. The point being your average salary slave cannot"

So your average worker on the average wage cannot afford to live in a house or flat? Even though I saved my deposit on less than average wage while supporting a student and renting at the time. And I also acknowledge that people dont always buy but do rent, and still the same applies about looking at where you are moving to.

If you are right the average person must be a freaking moron. I give them far more credit than that.

"Have you not got any "poor friends" you can ask about this?"

Absolute poverty or relative? As we are talking about super fast internet I assume you mean relative?

"To go with your "foreign friends" and "racist remain voter friends"."

You cant seriously be envious that I have friends? If you are I suggest less trolling in your life might help.

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@Dr_N

"But one can. If one is part of an elite. That's the whole point. If you only consider the top 5% of the population, by wealth then these views make perfect sense."

Are you trying to claim only the top 5% or as you call it 'elite' have a home? I say have as some people choose to rent but most choose to buy. Do you troll from under a bridge?

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@IGotOut

"You make out like people can just move to get a better connection."

For the most part that is true. Again assuming they want or need such. Covid lockdown is an oddity so we should ignore that for the moment. The few people who need a super fast connection at home is pretty small out of the total population. The number gets bigger for those who want a super fast connection (e.g. playing games).

If you are choosing where to live do you pick near the school for your kids or do you expect taxpayers to stump up to make a new school wherever you choose to go? Its not a perfect comparison but for those who care they check the connection offerings as well as transport links and schools, distance from mother in law, etc.

"So you you propose a farmer moves a 5000 acre farm and a few thousand cattle into the centre of the city?"

Why? Do the few thousand cattle need to stream multiple video sources in HD all day? Do they need a super fast connection? Do they want a super fast connection? If so why wont they pay to have the cable connected to them? Because its so stupidly expensive for 1 man (or family of whatever) on a farm with a few thousand cattle. They can of course use the connection they have through the already provided phone line, or mobile data plan if they wish.

"Or the person that has owned a house for 50 years just sell up, just so they can get 1mbs?"

If it matters so much to them. Or pay to get it cabled up. Hell they could be patient like my parents and register their interest to virgin and wait.

"What about the kids of these people? You do know a HUGE amount of school / college work has to be done online?"

Ok, so at what point does this need any kind of super fast connection? My kids try that one too. They need a high powered computer with beefy graphics card and blazing processor so they can do school work. Hence the shooting noises from their speakers.

"Personally I don't use ANY trains or buses, so I think those that do should pay for them."

Good. If we stuck to that mentality HS2 probably wouldnt come to existence and we would have less money pissed away on a train set which might not even be high speed in the end.

I notice your amusing rant of other things public money goes on which sounds like you want everyone to pay for your toys. Waa. I have no sympathy for that. As I have said I can understand us techies caring and not understanding why someone wouldnt want super fast blazing speeds. But it is selfish to expect those who dont to pay for it and for those who actually need it, they are few.

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@Down not across

"You think terrain in mainland Europe (including Scandinavia) is somehow more helpful. You don't get out (of the country) much do you?"

In some countries yes it is easier. Others less so. That would be one reason of the few I mentioned and there are probably plenty more.

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@Dr_N

"You've still not explained how on one hand government stumping up for a service (in N.I.) is good, whilst for everyone else in the (Barely)United Kingdom they need to pay through the nose"

I didnt say so thats fine. First I dont say government stumping up for the service (N.I.) is good. I am guessing you are taking more meaning from 'good for them' than intended. Its fairly near equivalent being approximately but not quite 'whatever'. It doesnt affect me so I dont care.

Also wow that article is an old one and I have never seen it before. Thanks for the link I will have a read.

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@Dr_N

"Douché"

I will assume you now realise how far from what I was saying you believed and dont feel too bad even though I do consider you one as well.

"Sounds like that's just lifted from BTOpenreach's big book of rubbish excuses."

I am sure they probably have one. What does that have to do with the truth? Or you just trolling again?

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@sebbb

"Well... I didn't know that broadband was a toy... especially after 2020."

It really is. It is amazing to see (seriously) as I (and I guess you) are used to seeing people well connected with multiple devices and so on. I still find it strange but for some people the internet or even a computer is a toy. It is like a different world but plenty people live that way.

"enable small towns (which are the majority of where people live) to not die and stimulate innovation."

Cool. Good for them (Dr N is probably gonna have an aneurysm). In the UK we get what we are willing to pay for. That means instead of ripping off a load of people through tax or higher prices we get the service we want. It is a pretty good system of people parting with money willingly. Unfortunately not everything is like that and more people demand more of their toys at others expense which is a shame really.

"All of this with national but also EU funds"

As you brought up Italy I will mention they recently suggested a large portion of their debt be forgiven because they cannot pay. The recent covid bailout also caused budget issues for some who dont like to see their hard earned money pissed up a wall. This is after the EU decided to reframe its spending away from the more parasitical countries to those actually earning and paying the friggin bills.

Not wanting to take this to an EU rant but you are only giving me more joy at the prospect of leaving. And I wouldnt consider us taking EU money (tax payer earned and taken money) to piss away on openreach etc. If we dont want to do it with out money why should someone else spend it for us?

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@Dr_N

"Really? You were cheering on N.I.'s UK government backed, Magic Money Forest financed fibre just the other day. Changed your tune? (Again.)"

I havnt changed any tune. All I said was good for them. If you consider that cheering I hope you dont have kids. God help them on sports day for whatever little you might say.

"UK broadband broadly sucks compared to continental Europe. I wonder why that is ... ?"

Because we get what we are willing to stump up for plus having a massive legacy system in place from the last time we were pretty advanced. And as some mentioned, we have good distances of unhelpful terrain between populations.

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@anthonyhegedus

"We don't all have to use broadband, but those that want it should be able to have it"

And they can. They just have to pay for it. Via a cable or data contract or whatever. But the cost is on the person and where they choose to be.

"When I can get 80/20 (sometimes) but a customer of mine ten minutes away can literally get 0.5/0.2 if he's lucky, but people up the road can get 330/30 (and not 1000/1000 because BT's equipment can't deal with it), it literally makes no sense at all."

I get that. But it doesnt need to make sense. We can check how fast the internet is before we move somewhere and have to be responsible in our choices.

"I said 'aim' - there will always be properties that just aren't worth connecting."

But how do we aim for it? I know governments approach is to make 'aim' the target and throw money at it (missing the target and throwing more money) but how do we do it if not through customer demand?

"The point is that to prepare for the next 20 years, there's no point in leaving people on slow ADSL connections"

With the speed of technological change why would it last 20 years and in some places wont even pay for itself in that amount of time. Hell we may all be on some 10G wireless data connections by then.

"We'll all pay for it, because we all will need a connection."

And this is where I have an issue with it. Me and you might need a connection, maybe even a fast connection. But I worked with people who never owned a computer and didnt have one at home. One friend I still have uses an old capped out computer (makes me wanna cry) and I am not sure if he uses a modem still.

Some people have no interest in it whatsoever and have no need nor desire a connection. Even more people will be happy with the connection speed they have as it does what they want. And of course a few will want faster. So those few should cough up for what they want. As I said-

"Moving into the 21st century it would be nice if people stopped asking for their toys to be paid for by others, and thats the only way such huge expense would be made."

*no idea who downvoted you. I can see the reason of your argument even if I am not convinced

Re: Disingenuous advertising

@anthonyhegedus

"Just this week I spoke to someone who had 5Mbps down / 0.5 Mbps up, which he said was "fine" for his needs."

It probably is fine for his needs. This lockdown for an unexpected and rare occurrence will catch people off guard, but what is the point of billing everyone in tax or subscription costs for faster speeds people either dont want or dont care about. I would care and I am sure you would, but a lot of people are happy with slow connections or look for fast areas and move/pay for it.

"It's high time this country entered the 21st century and aimed for full 1Gbps / 1Gbps internet as a default."

Why? For who? Why are the people who want it not paying for it? What about people living in the middle of nowhere? Or with so few customers it is wildly uneconomical? Who coughs up for it? Those who dont use a computer? Those who dont need nor wish to pay for such speeds?

Moving into the 21st century it would be nice if people stopped asking for their toys to be paid for by others, and thats the only way such huge expense would be made.

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

"No - it's ours. We are the ones demanding a border by leaving the customs union."

Ok this is new. So we leave a voluntary group. We have an agreement between the UK and Ireland that no hard border will be made. We (the UK) agree to stick to that, the EU cries and says no and as the EU is in charge of Ireland dictate a border must exist. So how is that the UK demanding a border? That doesnt work at all.

"That means that the consequences of the border (i.e. the collapse of the good friday agreement and the return to 1980s violence) is *our* problem."

So you think we should go to war with the EU for dictating to Ireland that there must be a border? Or do we legally go after Ireland somehow for breaking the agreement because the EU dictates they must? You cant honestly think we cant leave the voluntary group because the EU would force a member to break an agreement?

"Import isn't trade, trade required both"

Very wrong. You give me something (import) I give you something (pay for it). Export is also trade. I give you something (export) you give me something (pay for it).

"we could allow anyone to export *to* us, but that doesn't give us any capacity to export."

Awesome so we can get what we want and we have to make stuff that is worth buying (which we do, that is why we export stuff).

"That is why trade deals exist, to allow for countries who see a benefit to closer trade, maybe because of geography or specific industries, to trade better."

That would be the preference I mentioned. Trade deals to make up for the trade stance. Using your example would require being restrictive on trade to need a trade deal to reduce those restrictions.

"You completely missed the question I asked... How many times have you written to your MEP?"

Zero. Why would I write to my MEP (whoever that is). As far as I am concerned I am represented by those who want out, and I am happy with their work and voted for them each time.

"If they never hear from you then you cannot complain that they haven't heard you - that was the point I was making."

Ah ok. I dont bother with my MEP because I have no interest in being in the EU and so the only ones I have any interest in are leave MEP's. I dont even know who most of them are! I dont care. Every opportunity to vote leave I take.

"You'd better tell New Zealand, Taiwan, Iceland, Singapore... need I go on?"

Please do. Once you get to most of the world you might have a minor hope of being somewhere with a point. Otherwise nope. As soon as one of them open up they get hit again, because the virus hasnt gone. It has mutated apparently (second time?). So if we lock down to total eradication we will be infected on opening up again. Add illegals in dinghy's and we dont have a solid border to lock down in this country that exists on international trade and globalisation.

"The EU programme is defined, it just isn't set in stone since they will make changes right up until a vaccine is available"

And it is available in the UK already.

"which will likely include data from the countries currently acting as a reasonable scale trial."

Ok. So the EU will wait and wait and wait.

"the nations are free do do as they please"

Which sounds like whine, moan, complain and beg the EU to get a move on-

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-chafes-at-slow-pace-of-covid-19-vaccine-approval-11608036518

I love the words 'I hope that the EU too will get quick and unbureaucratic approval' since it is already slow due to the bureaucratic snail pace:

'EMA has been slower than the U.K., whose chief regulator started posing questions earlier in the process and was quicker to make follow-up queries, sometimes within minutes of an answer'

And its good to know what is most important:

'EU governments had agreed not to start a race for emergency authorization so as not to create tensions'

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

"You really don't get what a border is, and why it is needed do you?"

Yes. Thats why I am confused at why you seem to have an issue with the UK not being fussed and the EU absolutely being the ones who want and therefore its their problem. No matter how much toy throwing and screaming is done, its their problem.

"I don't know why politicians and brexiteers seem so confused by this."

Are we? Your the one saying that.

"Better trade *does* mean deals, and it means better deals."

At least we can see where you are getting it wrong, no. Trade deals are to make up for deficiencies in a countries trade stance. It could be custom agreements for preference but that preference is different to the countries trade stance. E.g. the EU is a protectionist trade block with high barriers which requires and relies on trade deals to exist.

"Erm - so you think that the literal worst available trade terms are going to improve our ability to trade internationally?"

Worst with who? Leaving could be seen as better trade terms since we can reduce the barriers we are forced to implement.

"We get to choose our elected representatives in westmister and europe. That they don't do what you want is not relevant"

Awesome! You have just shut down every argument of the remoaners. Shut up it doesnt matter the gov dont do what you want, shove off. Of course this is a situation leavers had to tolerate since we joined the EU, and now remainers must tolerate. On the other hand why elect people if they dont do what you want? Hence I voted for leave politicians.

"No - you see the doing fuck all was why we need lockdown"

This short lockdown is apparently going to be about a year long. Oddly enough no amount of lockdown getting rid of a persistent virus. Amazing that the experts were right to begin with and lockdown not gonna get rid of it. Sweden doing better than the UK yet not locking down. Sweden doing better than some of its heavily locked down neighbours.

Every time economies open up the virus spreads faster. In lockdown the virus spreads. With a vaccine it will still spread. How could it have been stopped? China getting its thumb out of its arse when it knew about it.

"We have 40 million doses on order, that's enough for ~30% of the population, not really mass vaccination."

Which is going to the vulnerable first. The ones who may actually be in danger. And the EU is still trying to figure out who and how.

"The EU are fractionally more cautious than the UK/US - that's not in itself a bad thing... what do we do if we find a 1 in 50k serious side effect?"

So state dictatorship that the population should shut up and die is ok but having the choice to have the vaccination is not? The EU can be cautious but make it available like the UK/US where people can choose for themselves. They dont need benevolent overlords telling people to shut up.

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

"The level playing field is one of those things that underpins the concept of frictionless trade"

Within the EU. Trade outside the EU does not require a level playing field.

"You can't leave the golf club and then complain that you aren't allowed in the bar any more."

Agreed. We get out of the EU and trade with them. Easy enough.

"Tax/Welfare/Legislation are not tariffs. Wales and Scotland diverge in both welfare and legislation from the UK, yet we have no tariffs, and therefore no border is required."

No tariffs with each other. Which is what such an agreement could be, or some sort of customs arrangement without a hard border. This is where Ireland and the rest of the UK/EU would have to be treated differently if the EU doesnt want to make a hard border. But thats their problem to work out not ours.

"If you have divergence in standards and/or tariffs applied then you need a border on which to check that these are being correctly applied."

And in the case of Ireland thats for the EU to work out then. Their problem as it has been all the way. If we dont care and they do then its obviously their issue.

"The whole point of brexit was to get better trade deals"

Was it? Glad you told me because thats the first I have heard about it. I hear about better trade but that doesnt mean deals, that can be achieved by not being protectionist of 27 countries. We dont need tariffs protecting our orange growing industry, we dont really have one. We just want the oranges.

"What percentage of EU regulations do you think we have opposed? Because regulations we supported are not in any way reducing our ability to rule."

Again mistaking the people for the government. Blair gold plating EU regulations wasnt because the people desired it. Hell labour promised a referendum at one point to get the votes so the detachment of government (pro-EU) and the population was clear. That we voted leave when we finally had a say and consistently support leaving throughout the many votes so far shows our opposition to the regulations.

"There is no way to refute an opinion which has no basis in reality - I await my unicorn delivery."

As do many in the EU.

"Our reaction been woefully inadequate, as evidenced by the relatively high number of deaths, and the insanely slow reaction of UK.gov to any advice"

No disagreement there. Had the gov stuck to its initial reaction we probably would be much better off but then Boris panicked and we have a country in lockdown.

"The T&T system was to be the benchmark of success"

Well said. PHE failed miserably. Our central approach to testing and too much control from government has inflicted a lot of harm on top of the virus itself.

Interestingly the UK has now got the vaccine and is administering it while the EU try to work out a 'common approach' and their people dont even have a choice to get it. A member of my family has already had it while my friends in the EU are still waiting for the politicians to get a move on.

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

"They are willing to come to an agreement, but it will not be at the cost of the basis of the EU. That much has always been clear, and has never changed."

The one absolute they really do bang on about is wanting to dictate our standards aka level playing field. The UK isnt some small insignificance which is why the EU is desperately trying to keep negotiating and desperate to have control over the UK if we 'leave'.

"There is an easy solution to not having a border - don't fucking leave the EU."

Even easier, dont build a hard border. We are not trapped in the voluntary EU project because of a border, thats stupid. Especially if its the EU demanding a border. If they dont want one, they agree to no border too.

"We can't both diverge and have our own tariffs *and* not have a border."

Why? While in the EU Ireland had 2 different tax, welfare and laws. Technically that means there is a border but not a hard border. The hard border being what the EU wants to impose.

"Find one thing about the UK/Japan deal which is better for the UK than the EU/Japan deal we had - because those responsible for it can't."

Why do I need to find anything better? You are the one saying the Japan deal shafts the UK, its the same as the EU deal therefore you think Japan shafted the EU. And we both seem to measure 'worse' differently as you consider the same to be worse (I consider the same to mean the same). You also seem to think the UK cant get as good a deal as the EU, which is where 'the same' should by now have knocked you out of this silly argument even by your own standards.

"Contributions have been tiny, or do you look at numbers and ignore the actual size of the UK budget overall."

I said- 'Contributions, regulations, trade barriers and a loss of democracy, sovereignty, trade, economic and border.' (as you quote) so price wise yes its expensive but is an addition to the rest.

"How many EU regulations have there been that we haven't actively supported?"

A lot since we voted leave. Or do you mean MEP's and pro-EU gov who has been repeatedly rejected as soon as we (voters) got an opinion?

"And the rest as well, you're just spouting Farage's stale opinions"

Which you oddly cant refute and those are my opinions. God knows how much more Farage could add to that.

"but your group stupidity has already cost lives"

Eh? Go on. Amuse me.

"The EU covid fund is a far better plan"

Not according to the members who would have to fund it. And the level they got it down to is after being the 'hold outs' because they didnt want to piss money up the wall. Its a bad plan for an awful currency in a badly implemented project.

"If we actually didn't want to have some form of economic recovery then we could have simply said no."

Yikes. Dangerous to talk of economic recovery when the EU is gonna struggle with one. The UK is in a bad position with our covid overreaction, but one the EU can only dream of. Italy is apparently asking to have a third of its debt forgiven as they cannot afford to ever repay. The twin engine of Europe blew up when France screwed up and now Germany cant carry the load.

And now for the vaccine the UK has approved it and getting on with it while the EU dithers and in-fights who gets it first. Some people were complaining the vaccine needs to be stored -70C and mocked waits on the border. The UK has it already and some members of the EU dont even have the facilities to store at that temperature.

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

"Erm, at what point has the EU walked away and threatened to stop playing?"

Thats the opposite of what I said. They refuse to walk away and refuse to reach an end. Every time the time limit is hit they want more negotiations. They could end this at any point for the last 2 years and still mess around. Yet they absolutely must be in control of the UK if it leaves.

"The current bunch of halfwits"

I too think thats insulting to halfwits. For 4 years this has been a farce on our side. The withdrawal bill being part of that farce.

"The issue of a border on the island of ireland is very much a UK problem. Do you remember the 1980s?"

Again not our problem. If the EU/ROI impose a border it isnt the UK doing it. No point going after the UK when we dont want the border either.

"If they were good then no-one would need any trade agreements."

Kind of. Trade agreements are a good thing I dont deny, but reducing the barriers of trade in the first place removes a lot of the need for agreements. The EU by design is protectionist with a huge barriers against trade, and relies on trade deals to perform trade. Reduce a lot of the barriers and agreements are nice but need to contain much less.

"Even UK Giov recognise this with their bending over to get shafted by the Japanese"

Ah? As we discussed they got a deal carried over from the EU (you consider worse because its the same). So the EU got shafted? Even I wont go that far.

"In fact the negotiators (the UK ones) estimate that the deal is 83% in favour of Japan, and only 17% of the benefits will come our way."

How is it in favour? We work harder to export them more, or we work less and buy what we like from them?

"How many variations do you think there are on "Remain"."

Loads. I entirely agree that leave was made up of varying opinions vastly opposing each other but coalescing around leave. However the exact same situation exists for remain. It is a socialist/neoliberal, protectionist/globalisation, trade block/political union, of like minded/competing member countries, loosely/tightly coupled aiming to be the EUSSR/USoE with the referendum being for the status quo/ever closer union.

The arguments to remain ranging between an ideal toward utopia or a crap shoot that we can only fix from the inside. As I said, many varied opinions.

"If you're so confident it's a good idea why didn't we actually hold a referendum when it was clear that that was the will of parliament."

Why didnt we have the referendum to join the EU? Why didnt we have a referendum every time one was offered? Why did it require a tooth and nail fight leading to a small party thrashing the main parties so hard that it was offered by a main party and it won to hold a referendum? Why did we have a referendum, MEP and general elections repeatedly electing leave parties and still not have left yet?

"At literally every stage the proponents of brexit have been saying that a free trade deal is important... and then doing everything they can to avoid one."

Important does not mean inevitable. A free trade deal is not selling the country to the damn bastards we are trying to leave. The EU doesnt want a free trade deal, they want to dictate our domestic standards and run how we do things still. Aka overstepping sovereign boundaries we would never accept from any other country so why would we do so for them?

"It's rather easy to assume that leave voters are stupid when they claim that this"-

"Japanese deal has any benefits to the UK" - You stated it does. 17% you claimed (your figures in this very comment!)

"or that we need blue passports" - I hear from remainers. Maybe you hear some leavers about it???

"or that the Good Friday agreement isn't a UK problem" - Which isnt as I keep explaining vs your lack of explanation otherwise.

"or that WTO terms are a trade agreement" - Actually factually they are. Not even a grey area.

"or that we don't need a deal" - Which isnt necessary although we agree nice to have if its a trade deal.

"or that a deal is oven ready" - I agree thats stupid. We should have walked away ages ago. Years.

"or that we'll get £350m/week for the NHS" - Which on a technicality is both correct and incorrect. Definitely misleading.

"When they get surprised that they can't now spend six months in Spain without a visa" - I am sure someone might be surprised but mostly remainers complaining from what I hear.

"need I go on?" - Up to you. We seem to agree the gov is naff, you needed some correcting and we have differing opinions on other things.

"Bloomberg estimate the cost of brexit at substantially more *this year* than we have paid over forty seven years of membership (£200b vs ~£175b)"

2 points- Be interesting to know how they calculated it and if it includes remain attempts/problems and how does it compare to if we had to join the EU covid bailout which we luckily avoided?

"Other estimates suggest that brexit will drop 5-8% off our economy..."

Lots of guesses how it will go. The good news about that IFS one you mention is it only looks to the very short term as an adjustment will occur as we no longer rely on the EU. Also a lot depends on how open to business and trade we will be, which leaving the EU was about being more open.

"And the cost of being a member has been?"

Bloody huge. Contributions, regulations, trade barriers and a loss of democracy, sovereignty, trade, economic and border.

Not an EU specific book but if you fancy an interesting read (mostly bashing our govs) this book is interesting and does show some of the heavy costs from government regulation and often over-regulation-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scared-Death-Global-Warming-Costing-ebook/dp/B08F7LD1TK/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1F9AOVNFV57DT&dchild=1&keywords=scared+to+death&qid=1607519427&sprefix=scared+to+d%2Caps%2C158&sr=8-2

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

"It was a communications screwup, but EU domains for EU entities has been written in the policy from very early on"

Well and truly a communications screw up. If its written in so early why dont the very people who need to know not know? They distanced themselves from the EU public announcement very clearly.

"Make your mind up"

Not for me to make my mind up, it was the EU screwing up. Thats not dyslexia, thats the EU wanting the Euro as a global reserve currency stating they desired policy that would stop it being such. Its your nonsensical responses like this that made me think English was your second language (and would be excusable). Are you purposefully being thick?

"How do you negotiate with a toddler sitting on some of the playing cards under the table and refusing to say which game they want to play."

Exactly. And yet the EU does that and then screams they dont want us to go when we get up to leave. Every time insisting they can be more flexible or can suddenly negotiate what was not negotiable before.

"It's *very much* a UK problem."

You state that. With no reason or fact. The UK isnt interested in putting up a wall in Ireland, the EU is.

"WTO is the lowest possible denominator"

And allows the UK to set its own minimum tariffs (something got wrong by remain and Nick Clegg). Basically the UK sets its own tariffs and no longer has to be protectionist of 27 countries.

"We are a relatively insignificant third country"

That the EU desperately doesnt want to lose.

"Facts?"

Get a dictionary if your stuck.

"Since Boris couldn't even bring himself to admit that his oven ready deal"

Feel free to rip into Boris all you like. He is the best hope at the moment for getting out of the EU and I still dont trust him to do that.

"Tell me. When did any referendum offer no-deal as an option?"

It was right there on the paper to vote to remain or leave. Remain capturing the varying opinions of what remain means, leave capturing the varying opinions of what leave means. One stunning observation is how stupid we leave voters are assumed to be while staunch remain voters dont seem to understand what the options were on the referendum.

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

"You think the TLD thing was a fiasco?You think the TLD thing was a fiasco?"

You dont? The politicians suddenly decide publicly and the very people to implement it didnt get told? In fact they ended up publicly stating they had no idea and had just found out (from the news wasnt it?). Then it might not happen, then it will. It looked like a petulant strop even if it was just incompetence. Neither being desirable.

"The Euro already is a GRC, with 4-5 times the presence of sterling, despite it's relative youth."

Which is why it was funny to see the EU argue for it to not be a global reserve (must be cleared in the EU).

"The EU have maintained a sensible, and open, policy with regard to negotiations, they have put forward proposals and what has the UK done? Said "We don't like that", and not suggested anything in return."

Thats one way to look at it. Another is their lack of will to negotiate and assume we will take anything. Then when it looks like we are gonna leave with no deal to suddenly be able to be flexible. They even did it again recently in October when suddenly they could be more flexible.

"We will have WTO only trade with >40% of our trade in four weeks time"

Which in itself is an international trade agreement. And entirely for the UK to decide how protectionist it wants to be. The damning scenarios assuming we keep EU protectionism as our policy.

"The lack of understanding around NI means that a US deal isn't exactly forthcoming either"

That would have been easier if the UK had left when it should have instead of messing around so long, but will see. As for NI, that was pretty mishandled when our politicians didnt just tell the EU to shove off and build a wall if thats what they want. It wasnt UK policy nor problem.

"The EU offered an extension to the transition period to allow governments to focus on the pandemic"

Interesting how insignificant and unimportant we are but please dont leave. In my opinion about time the gov said no more extensions, should have been done 2 years ago.

"EU trade deals are complex beasts"

Very true. And one of the good reasons to leave.

"so they don't "force" many trade deals on any member state, they don't have the power to do so."

I might be misunderstanding this bit but I think they can. To keep members on side it allowed a vote over the Canada deal and got held up by not even a country. For Brexit they agreed it must be unanimous too. but it doesnt seem to be necessary:

'3. Application of the consent procedure'- https://www.eumonitor.eu/9353000/1/j9vvik7m1c3gyxp/vh7bi4zutqzf

"I'm quite happy to stop - no-one else is listening and it looks like neither of us is going to say anything that the other considers relevant."

Ok. It is possible someone is still reading so I like to try and provide the facts they could look at to find the truth.

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

Ok so how about we stick with trade as that seems to be where we have ended up. The purpose of the EU is a protectionist block, which some people consider a benefit btw depending on your view. It has high tariffs and non-tariff barriers to protect its members industries. To make a trade deal it can either impose it on the member countries, or as with trying to placate members when we voted brexit can try and get all members to agree.

An interesting issue cropped up with the EU wanting the Euro to be a global reserve currency. Which during the brexit negotiations considered insisting the Euro can only be cleared in the EU. It is a petulant and ill thought through proposal (like the EU TLD mess) which makes the EU look immature in global trade.

We have already discussed chlorinated chicken and the amusement that first world food deemed safe is not good enough for the EU (protectionism). And of course that the UK is getting the same trade deals (transferred over) as the large trade block.

"Classic - of course you use the wrong 'your' multiple times and then ask if I speak English."

Honestly wasnt trying to insult. This is a European topic and I am sure a few people in Europe with English as a second language probably use this site. I am dyslexic. Just wondered since you kept avoiding answering.

"The fact that you still haven't managed to provide anything even resembling a good reason is evidence enough for probably anyone still reading this long and now completely pointless thread."

You have ignored good reasons yes. As the EU economy bit showed serious delusion at best on your part. We can stop if you like, I think you have done enough damage to your opinions on here a few comments ago.

Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.

@John Robson

"When asked for one reason you gave a list of topics and no reasons."

And you still struggle with the simple concept of choosing one. I see why this discussion is so difficult.

"It really does"

Yet again incapable of actually addressing the issue. If the EU economy tanks it affects the UK. Even more-so if we are in the EU. The latest issue being Italy wanting debt forgiveness- https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/italy-is-about-to-hijack-the-eurozone

You are trying to claim theoretical damage to the UK is terrible but the EU in dire economic crisis doesnt. Just because its inconvenient doesnt mean it isnt important.

"Yes it would be the same - but it's one deal, and only one deal."

So from what you tell me its one deal that the UK wouldnt get as good as the EU because little UK will do worse than the big EU, except its the same deal, so the little UK got as good a deal as the EU. Which you then say is somehow worse. And you accuse me of mental gymnastics.

"Yes I did, except that you claimed that industry wouldn't need yet another set of tooling for things in a different regulatory environment. You can't have it both ways."

You need to read my comments because you missed everything I wrote. Consistently I have stated that we dont need a political union to trade. That our domestic standards do not need to match the export countries as it never has been the case. We dont do that for the rest of the world and so dont need to for the EU.

"That's not what we want to do - we want to reduce regulations so that the 1% can drive people into workhouses, and ban trade unions."

Thats your aim? Damn thats dark. Reducing stupid regulation would be a boost to the economy and so generate more money (that would be real growth to support public services). Reduce tariffs is a real pay rise for everyone including the poor (especially as food is expected to be cheaper) as well as boost economic growth.

"https://mbio.asm.org/content/9/2/e00540-18.full"

That is interesting. At a quick glance it seems to be discussing the potential 'hibernating' effect of the chlorine wash on bacteria which might then come back to life. I notice it says that about the spinach leaves as its example. Salad is chlorine washed in the EU so if this is a concern for you I suggest you cook it well. As you should with meat anyway.

"Points are only trying to keep up with your gymnastics and deliberate misreading."

Your kidding! You cant even pick a single topic and on all of them your are contradictory or tangential. I am wondering if you are reading my comments or reading what you want my comments to be.

*Afterthought- is english your first language? If not that might explain where we are not communicating very well

Re: The only good thing

@ectel

"With that level of offshoring going after the revenue (gross input to the company, that is possible to prove) is the only way forward"

Ok lets hypothetically accept that as true. We are talking about more laws which will likely slip from the intended targets to the nobodies in this world. Turnover is exceptionally different to profit and could sink a small operation who intends no harm but is caught by the overzealous. A fine against turnover could exceed the profit and cause serious harm to livelihoods.

Remember in the UK we had antiterrorism laws used against dog walkers.

Re: The only good thing

@tkioz

"The only good thing I'm seeing here is a trend towards fines being based on turnover / revenue because that's the only way they'll be meaningful deterrents"

I really didnt like that part. Instead of fining profit (money made) they want to fine turnover which is an entirely different figure. And how long until they slide that thinking to the rest of us.

Re: "legal but harmful"

@Cuddles

"legal-but-harmful material"

It is criminal to follow the law. What is harmful? How broad a brush does that use? And if it is so bad why is it legal? If it is legal then it is allowed, surely?

Lunatics run the asylum

Re: Those pesky indians

@NiceCuppaTea

If thats true then we can only assume they are actually earning more than standing in a field starving. Which would be due to trade and globalisation. Which suggests they are getting richer by doing business with richer places and globally that would be pulling people up instead of crushing them down.

China seems to have done well out of such approach recently. I expect there are a lot of people starving in actual poverty only hoping to be exploited like this.

Re: Borrris can sort it.

@AC

"Buyers remorse, Mr. Junky?"

Buying what? Boris? I dont trust the guy. Brexit? Damn good idea I hope gets done this time.

Why do you need to AC? Known troll or idiot?

Re: "whether there is a Brexit deal or not"

@phuzz

"There's still a possibility, although not a plausible one"

You have more faith in Boris carrying it out than I do. I wont believe there is no deal until the UK actually walks away and stops just saying it.

Re: "whether there is a Brexit deal or not"

@Pascal Monett

"There will be no deal. There is no deal. It's dead. You're leaving, and that's it."

No matter how many times it is said the politicians still dont get it.

Re: Borrris can sort it.

@MJI

"His fault, he can fix it."

I agree with the first bit. I dont think in this short a time anyone can fix it.

@veti

"Now all we have to do is make them follow through."

Didnt that already happen? Wasnt it Germany and Spain, both of which caved after the value of Google was realised (the news outlets lost most of their traffic).

Re: Science.

@TeeCee

I was discussing the lack of lockdown for xmas but then its back on with family. The reason being sound that the government has no control and people will be meeting for xmas with or without government permission, but then they knew that back in March (prolonged lockdown wont work).

The WHO seemed to have been playing politics instead of its job in health. PHE was more interested in dictating our diets than preparing for a pandemic. The advice and actions have been so badly disjointed it isnt a shock to see people having various views over what is and isnt real.

@Dinanziame

"Sounds weird that a company making money hand over fist would do such things to save pennies."

Or does it help explain part of their success in being financially responsible?

Re: This court case is so un-american

@sabroni

Not sure its capitalism but libertarian and free market yes.