Posts by codejunky

Re: @Spaceman9

@John Robson

"Sorry - what planet are you on?"

Just want to ask, are you the same person as was posting replies to me previously or do you share an account? Have you seriously forgotten our previous comments on this very thread?

"You think I hold UK supremacist views?"

Yes. You seem to believe the UK would remain and go its own way unlike every member government in the EU. That the UK is better run than countries such as Germany who binned their own plans under pressure from the EU to do joint procurement. Otherwise why do you think the UK would have done its own thing against all evidence from every member government in the EU?

"The EU didn't screw up - they realised that a global situation demands a global response. We however acted like the selfish brat in the corner."

I dont understand how you can hold on to that wild belief against all evidence? The UK, UK and Israel left the EU behind because we placed orders and got ready to distribute them. The EU didnt. What global response? It was an EU response that was almost comatose and so members then went their own way anyway because the EU failed.

"Erm - what? Stuff is still not available on our shelves"

Again I have no idea where you are. I havnt seen any issues in any of the 4 supermarkets and various other stores I visit here. Not one.

"and the EU can import anything they like, although it's now easier to source it from a supplier within the remaining single market (i.e. it's worse for us, not them)."

That is the opposite of what you said- "In particular the EU are complying with WTO rules and applying checks on our exports. We however are not complying with WTO rules, and are in fact a smugglers paradise.". So if they are applying checks and making things difficult then they have a harder time getting what they want from the UK but the UK you say isnt having that problem, we are letting stuff in.

Make up your mind.

"You're genuinely trying to claim that actively giving an advantage to foreign suppliers is a Brexit benefit."

It is. You remember all that talk of trade and how not having the protectionist borders of the EU etc? Sounds like you are saying its happened. Woohoo!

"There is a reason people stop responding to you - you fail to let the facts penetrate or influence your argument in the slightest."

Interesting how they stop responding when the question is too difficult for them to answer without pretending they live in an alternate universe. Expecting your going that road too since your ducking and weaving and forgetting what we are talking about.

"You have failed to suggest a single benefit"

And there we go. You cannot answer, cannot refute the benefit and even admitted the result in your own comment but then the fingers go back in the ears and 'lalalala'. I can understand people saying the benefits dont outweigh the costs, its an opinion I disagree with but can still acknowledge the facts. To claim no benefits is to run from the facts, and you are doing that at pace now.

Note how you have changed the subject, taken the goalposts, reached for tangents and now outright denied reality. All the while I have answered each subject, tangent and even explained the irrelevance of you moving the goalposts and even at one point agreed with you over an issue over trade. Not once have I ducked, weaved or run away.

So which of us is in the real world and which occupied a fantasy?

Re: @Spaceman9

@John Robson

"The point being?"

Really? Dont be a dipshit, you even say it in your first response to me at the start of the comment- "Well - yes we started faster". To claim you dont get the point after our discussing it is just stupid.

"We paid more and started earlier - both things we could have done without Brexit"

Except that hits the wall of reality. I have already explained how wrong you are in this thread- https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2022/04/08/after_minimum_viable_product_rollout/#c_4443058 so if you have an actual answer to that please share. However your response to that comment was to move goalposts and talk about irrelevant garbage.

"And yes, we started earlier - but only barely."

Same month different ends. Plus the UK had sufficient supply of vaccine (remember concerns of running out of vials? which was addressed so didnt happen) unlike the EU.

"And we were particularly bad at being a global player in the vaccine market: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2021/03/25/has-the-uk-really-outperformed-the-eu-on-covid-19-vaccinations/"

I suggest you read the article you posted. It basically explains how the EU screwed up and the UK placed the orders and understood the contracts it signed. However the article seems to be written in a whining tone of someone who thinks the EU shouldnt be blamed for incompetence. I must give the article credit for all its crying and whining it does seem to accept the facts that the UK did it right and the EU did shockingly bad even if he doesnt want to say that.

"And it wasn't Brexit related anyway:"

"It never was a Brexit benefit. However much you try to bleat about it."

Lies! Go back and answer my comment I link above and answer why you hold UK supremacist views. Dont change the subject or run away with the goalposts again but see if you can answer.

"In particular the EU are complying with WTO rules and applying checks on our exports. We however are not complying with WTO rules, and are in fact a smugglers paradise."

So the EU cant get access to what they want but we can. Awesome. Especially as people got grumpy when stuff wasnt on the shelves at one point.

"Just look at the roads in Kent and tell me with a straight face that international trade is anywhere near pre covid levels"

I am nowhere near Kent but as I have already responded to you previously (since your memory seems to have 'glitched' today)- "This will be interesting to keep an eye on."

"Just look at the shelves in your local supermarket - I've never seen so many empty shelves, so little choice."

Seriously? Where about are you in the country? Here the shelves are completely full in all the supermarkets I visit. I even go later to avoid queues.

"Just look at our inflation, particularly when looking at the cheaper products, compared with our global peers."

You are shocked at rising inflation? Why? We stall the economy, print money and spaff it and rely on gas only to be hit by a war blocking supply. But what are you on about 'global peers'? - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=europe

Even less than the US- https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=world

"hard tory Brexit which is completely counter to what was promised in an illegally contested referendum which was "won" by a small minority"

Waaaaaaaa!!! Waaaaaaa!!! Didnt get my way. Now you got that out of your system do you think maybe that attitude is why you 'forgot' what we were talking about and avoid the point?

Re: @Spaceman9

Lots of thumbs and no facts. Do the 6 downvoters disagree and have some fact to base that on? Or is it just the usual upset that the world wont bend to tears?

Re: @Spaceman9

@John Robson

"Well, we're currently (Apr 6th 2022) behind: Denmark, Italy, Portugal, Belgium, Ireland, Finland, France, Sweden - just to list the EU countries we're lagging behind."

Come back with the goal posts. We have already established the brexit benefit for vaccinations and the above doesnt change that. In fact the above means very little since at this point most people have either had the virus or the jab and so are immunised to the best of our ability. It is hard to complain at how vaccinated the UK is when its still above (just) Germany and clearly above the EU.

"We're at 73.6% double jabbed, the EU as a whole is at 73.2%."

While of those who have had any vaccination (single or double jab) is 75.22% EU and 77.60 UK as if that makes much of a difference now. The time it mattered being early on.

"but the trend is that the EU has narrowed that gap - i.e. their performance has been better - for a while now."

So they had to catch up? Why was that? *yeah I am hitting you with the point*. But on the note of their performance, it was shockingly bad. Not only did they not sign the orders but they didnt understand their contracts, raided manufacturers, stole vaccine for export and threatened to steal more. The EU did so badly that Germany broke its agreement about ordering vaccine while others imported from China and Russia because of the shortage. Do you consider that better performance than the UK who ordered, prepared and delivered efficiently and even to our foreign territories while the EU panicked?

"The EU paid $2.15/dose initially, whilst the UK paid about $3/dose."

I love this argument. So its ok for the EU to kill people (not order vaccine) because they got it slightly cheaper? Can you imagine that happening here? The vaccinations starting late, insufficient quantities and behind countries who were more competent but its ok we shaved a little off the price?

"There is no basis at all to say that our vaccine programme is/was better than the EU"

Reread the above and see if you can hold on to that delusion. Even in the EU they couldnt hold that delusion. Remember the famous slip from Ursula saying the UK is a speed boat and the EU a supertanker. Leavers quickly jumping on the comment to say 'duh no shit. We told you so'.

"We are still suffering significantly as a result of our world leading trade barriers, which we still haven't implemented."

Eh? If its a problem caused by trade barriers but we havnt implemented them how is it the barriers?

"And yet our trade deficit continues to grow."

And? If your reading from jan 2022 they do warn that HMRC have changed how they collect data but still so?

Re: @Spaceman9

@Fruit and Nutcase

"but somewhat ironic with what the Brexiteers were saying about UK jobs etc."

Ironic because of what brexiteers were saying about trade? Why should we print them when the French will do it cheaper? It allows people here to go do something else.

"They'd be even cheaper without the additional hurdles of not being in the EU"

While the trade off being we would have to still be in the EU and all the costs of that. Probably not cheaper and we would be on the hook for the covid bailout fund as well as the ever increasing costs. Remainers cried about paying the bill already racked up for being in the EU (the divorce bill).

Re: @Spaceman9

@Doctor Syntax

"ISTR you saying the EU was about to collapse so get out while we can"

Yup. The EU creates crisis after crisis and is still going to the wall at full speed. I said it about the Eurozone when I was called Eurosceptic for not wanting the Euro to replace the GBP and as the crash proved I was right. I am still of the same opinion. The EU needs severe and drastic change if it is to survive and I only see 2 options- back to a trade block or federalising.

"EU still there"

With member countries actively ignoring its attempts to dictate domestic policy. With member countries openly breaking agreements with the EU (Germany vaccine procurement) because of the failure from the supranational entity. Look weak internationally and were bent over by Russia recently and mocked due to the Turkey visit previously. Still going to the wall and without severe and drastic change will hit it.

"UK starting to look as if bits might drop off, such as NI."

Is it?

Re: @Spaceman9

@nijam

"There were no fanatical remainers, of course."

You must be new here, welcome.

"The benefits of brexit though... that really is a damp - positively drenched, in fact - squib."

Keep telling yourself that.

Re: @Spaceman9

@the small snake

"The famous codejunky argument again:"

That has still stumped remainers.

"The UK vaccine rollout went so well (by the way, it did not go that well, but never mind)"

Did not go so well??? What propaganda are you reading?

"because even though it could have done just the same thing if it was in the EU"

A technicality which does not stand up to fact and requires a belief in UK supremacy and a more benevolent EU than was.

"Not like the strong virile frenchys and germanoids and us other EUers."

Ahhh, when you say us other EUers please do tell which member country. Just in case I cross another who is as badly misinformed as you.

"How does that work out for you? Not too well it looks like from here."

I love it!!! Go on what delusional insanity are you being fed? You seem to have some fair grasp of English so I suggest you go look beyond your countries borders and see how it compares to the nonsense you have been told. Even inside the EU by the very fanatics at the heart of the EU was clear derision of their vaccine procurement and how embarrassing it was to watch the UK doing so much better.

Or your a troll account trying to make remainers look particularly stupid.

Re: @Spaceman9

@batfink

"Back to the false claim that the vaccine rollout was down to Brexit I see."

Reading your comment I seemed to remember you running away from this discussion in the past. I remember you making the same statement last time but when confronted with fact you mysteriously vanished 2 months ago!

So if you really believe its a false claim that brexit helped the UK roll out vaccine quicker then I refer you to our last conversation-

https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2022/01/28/horizons_response/#c_4405080

So would you care to try and explain or are you gonna run away again now you made your amusing but false comment?

Re: @Spaceman9

@redpola

"Actually, Hungary, an EU member state, began vaccinating one day before the UK did."

Are you sure? Hungary started vaccinating 1 day before the other EU members who were to do so on the 28th dec 2020. The UK started on the 8th.

Hungary started early to do its medical professionals, the UK started with the elderly and healthcare workers.

Re: Amazing isnt it

"CDS, the replacement system for CHIEF, planned for 2019 will be released in 2023. Possibly."

Well said, they already planned to upgrade nearly a decade before and we had the brexit result in 2016.

"Unsurprisingly if you take a 27 year old system designed for life inside the Single Market and Customs Union and try and scale it up to cope with everything everywhere, it regularly dies on its arse."

Understandably. It seems they were aware for a long time that they were in need of upgrading it and that was just for remaining.

"GVMS is shiny and new though and is probably agile and cloudy. Surely nothing could go wrong there..."

Its government IT. We probably have a similar level of faith in its brilliance.

Re: @Spaceman9

@Trubbs

"Where is the block poster button?"

No idea otherwise a troll or two would have been hit by it by me :)

"Commentard Mr C Junky you remind him to me"

Interesting. I am guessing this guy left quite an impression on you. What is really interesting is how you take a calm and friendly post by me where I am pleasantly surprised at another poster providing sources which point to positive action by the gov, and yet somehow in your mind you relate positivity with someone you describe as opposite. Is this an image conjured to you regularly or is it situations such as when you disagree with someone? Or is it something you have linked in your mind with certain subjects such as brexit?

"Anyway, we used to give him a wide berth (pun intended)"

And yet you chose to engage with me your mental imagery. Fascinating.

Re: @Spaceman9

@John Robson

"Ah yes - take back control of our borders by completely opening them to any smugglers, and not checking whether goods are safe..."

Eh? Are you confused? The UK choosing how to handle its borders is taking back control of them. More open or closed its the UK's decision not the EU's which is taking back control. Are you seriously arguing for shortages? I hope you didnt complain when there were things missing from the shelves otherwise your just moaning for the sake of it.

Re: @Spaceman9

@Citizen of Nowhere

"No idea. We always hear this refrain that we are a burden."

Financially Scotland is. That doesnt mean it has no value to the Union and I am happy to recognise that. Its also the place that spends its time crying about being in the Union while its deficit is covered by the UK. The problem is the SNP seem aware of how dependent they are on the UK that demands for independence really wernt. Going their own way is one thing but doing so with the UK financially backing its every whim and failure while they tried to claim they would take none of the debt was insulting.

A few of us wondered what would happen if we offered independence but they take a share of the debt and had none of the financial and infrastructure support they were demanding.

Re: @Spaceman9

@John Robson

"Well - yes we started faster, but that was nothing to do with EU membership or otherwise."

Glad you acknowledge the fact but how do you get that second part so wrong?

"We were still members of the EMA at the time - or did you forget that?"

It was politically untenable for the UK gov to throw in with the EU procurement when we finally left the EU. It would be UK supremacist to believe the UK is better run than every member country in the EU and every one of them joined the joint procurement under pressure from the EU. Some countries such as Germany actually had a plan and binned it to join the EU joint procurement. So why do you believe the UK gov is so superior as to remain but reject the joint program? Do you truly believe the UK government is superior to all the other member governments?

But thats not the end! The EU screwed up so badly they were desperate. They stole vaccine destined for export and made direct threats against the UK to steal vaccine destined for here! Without the weight of EU law and our EU membership to abuse they tried to steal from the UK! So why do you believe they wouldnt have done so as members and of course would use the union as the excuse to redistribute?

"And we've been low performing in terms of vaccination for a long while now."

Lies. Amusing lies but go on. In fact we are above the EU and a little above Germany.

"And data shows that most developed economies are now at ~3% above pre pandemic trade, except for Britain"

This will be interesting to keep an eye on.

Re: @Spaceman9

@John Robson

""We're all doomed" wasn't what was predicted."

That sounds like a very revised history. We were predicted a recession as soon as the result was leave, didnt happen. We were told it was because art50 wasnt implemented, when it was still no recession. We were told the banks were leaving, they didnt. Amusingly you attribute a drop in trade, reduction of choice on the shelves and 'corruption' to brexit instead of the global pandemic affecting the globe.

"There hasn't been any benefit to the country from Brexit - it's not just that I don't think the benefits outweigh the losses"

Then the delusion is strong. To think the benefits dont outweigh the losses is an opinion which we would disagree but could be rooted in the same facts, but to claim no benefits at all to the country is nothing but false. The UK procurement of vaccine was down to brexit. Be grateful contracts were signed under UK law not European.

Re: @Spaceman9

@Citizen of Nowhere

"Good to see the condescension remains as unchanged as the roguery . Only to be expected, of course :-)"

Do you not think England would vote to remove Scotland from the union? I dont know but I would suspect there would be a considerable number willing to stop funding Scotland although it does bring up issues for defence of the country.

Or is your issue with the Scottish plan to fund itself being dependent on the UK funding their wet dream? Noting their plan hinged on oil prices which collapsed and the UK funding them while they try to find the money for their spending desires.

Re: @Spaceman9

@Warm Braw

"These will probably do for a start..."

Cheers. Always happy to know more.

"https://www.export.org.uk/news/600642/Government-considering-further-delay-to-SPS-checks-on-EU-agrifoods-to-avoid-supply-chain-disaster-.htm"

According to a government source quoted by The Independent: “Ministers are looking at this again in the light of cost of living pressures and supply chain pressures.”

It added that “the war in Ukraine has also changed the economic context.”

Meanwhile, the Food and Drink Federation has said that a delay is justified due to the crisis in Ukraine, which has massively impacted supplies of wheat, sunflower oil and fish.

I had suspicions Ukraine may affect the reasoning.

"https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-sets-out-pragmatic-new-timetable-for-introducing-border-controls"

Global pandemic has affected supply chains in the UK and across Europe

Again I suspected.

"http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/187157/border-controls-threaten-supply"

New UK border controls could delay European food imports, industry leaders warn

Yup, that is saying the gov is doing a good job delaying the checks.

Interestingly the sources you posted all seem to confirm the same thing. Feel quite surprised how accurate my guess was as it was just a quick guess from the top of my head.

Re: @Spaceman9

@monty75

"Your memory is dodgy"

Sorry nope. Constant conversations with remainers even before the vote resulted in them bringing up the wars and going back in time. Feel free to go through the ever long posting history if you like. But your blog link sounds like a sore remoaner who studies history and is going on about the war. Exactly the situation I describe.

Re: @Spaceman9

@monty75

"UK economy took a bigger hit and has been slower to recover than any other comparable country"

Your source doesnt seem to say that.

"The UK vaccination strategy had nothing to do with Brexit and in fact we're now behind the rest of the EU"

Well thats exciting lies. The UK placed orders while the EU took longer to place them. The UK signed orders while the EU took its time doing so. The UK ordered lots of vaccine while the EU turned down vaccine because France wanted the (failed) Sanofi one to get the orders. The EU started catching up as member countries ordered vaccine separately even breaking their agreement with the EU not to negotiate with the same supplier.

The idea a member could authorise a vaccine without the EU was shot when a Dublin minister wanted people to go to NI and bring back vaccine to which the EU said no.

But go on...

*For bonus 'you are wrong' the EU actively threatened and attempted and achieved stealing vaccine due for export and actively raided manufacturing facilities and such looking for vaccine expected to be exported (and found EU supplies instead). If we were in the EU yet went our own way on vaccine the EU would have used EU authority to dictate our vaccine away from us.

Re: @Spaceman9

@GruntyMcPugh

"'Project fear', right, we now have the highest tax burden since repairing the country after a mechanised army tried to destroy us."

Heads up just in case you slept through it but there was a huge grinding of economies around the world including the UK as a pandemic swept over the globe. To tide people over (and I consider this covidpanic) money was spaffed on people as businesses were legally blocked from doing business. All of this after a spaffing of money after the great recession (2008). All this printed money about to smack us with high inflation and a war between Russia and Ukraine is pushing up prices in food and oil etc.

However good morning.

"But hey, name us a Brexit bonus!"

A far better covid vaccination strategy than had we remained. You know when the EU fanatics were also pointing out the UK did better.

Re: @Spaceman9

@Citizen of Nowhere

"The country was sold down the river by a clique of aristocrats who had political and financial interests south of the border which had always existed, but intensified after the Union of the Crowns"

Didnt they also screw up their economy badly which made a union more desirable?

"The 2014 referendum was won partly by the "vow" (made in bad faith by the unionists) that something close to devo max would be implemented if Scotland remained and partly by the argument that we would be out of the EU if we left and that it would take years and years to get back in"

While independence was to be anything but independence while expecting the UK to shoulder the cost of a plan that didnt add up. But it is true that Scotland would have been out of the EU if they left the UK.

"Times may change, but rogues be constant."

We know. If Scotland wanted independence they should have let England vote too. Although their wet dreams of the UK funding their strop would have been laughed off even harder.

Re: @Spaceman9

@Spaceman9

"No it is not an observation"

So you (whoever you are) are telling me what I observe or dont? Psychic?

"It is the language that was used throughout the brexit campain."

I can believe it was used as people observed UK sovereignty had been surrendered to the EU. Some may have tried to frame it to sound as a battle I wouldnt be shocked.

"Heroic brits fighting against the imperialist EU."

This really did seem to be a thing that occupied the minds of staunch remainers. They seemed to have some obsession with WW1/2 and also kept referring to going backwards to the 1970's too. I never understood their desire over all that.

Re: @Spaceman9

@John Robson

"Project reality (to give it's proper name) has been proved rather accurate."

Yes but thats not what I said, I mentioned project fear. That effort to claim we are all doomed because of brexit, which was both ridiculous and false.

Re: @Spaceman9

@Warm Braw

"Turkey is part of the CU as a result of a specific bilateral treaty: no surrender."

Well said. They wanted to join and so they did.

"Billions of VAT have been lost because the UK doesn't dare enforce its own border controls as to do so would risk food supplies: surrender."

I recall food supply concerns recently over Ukraine and before that complaints of empty shelves because of covid. Maybe the gov isnt as dumb as it looks. However do you have a source?

Re: @Spaceman9

@Spaceman9

"Away with your war analogies!"

While you can surrender in war you can also surrender without war. Not a war analogy, just an observation.

Re: @Spaceman9

@AC

"Since being a member of the EU and being in the single market are completely independent that's a very odd comment to make."

And who is in charge of the single market? Which in itself inflicts quotas and tariffs which hurt the member countries and blocks out those terrible foreigners.

"Indeed the leave campaigns all explicitly stated that there was never any question of leaving the customs union."

Erm- https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

"And that's ignoring the fact that you don't "surrender" to a political union - you join it"

And we left it. While they seek to increase their control over member countries and seek to transfer more sovereignty to the central overlords.. erm... gov.

"In the same way that you "surrender" to your family when you choose to settle down and have kids."

That I did get a choice in. Just as I got a choice in voting to leave. We never voted to join the political union though.

Re: @Spaceman9

@Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

"...said the brexiteers"

You do realise project fear turned into a disappointing damp squib for the EU and fanatical remainers?

Re: @Spaceman9

@Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?

"...said the Scottish"

Nope. They sold Scotland willingly. Even vote to remain after being promised candy and rainbows if they left.

@Spaceman9

"A customs union of some kind?"

Without surrendering the country to a political union.

Re: Heads in the sand

@Will Godfrey

The issue I see with the covid restrictions is the mistaken belief that it will just go away. Everyone is going to get it no matter how hard we lock down. Even countries locked down so tight as to aim for zero covid are finding how futile their dreams are. All the while the 'resurgence' is of another mutation which this thing will continue to do.

Which then leads to the question over what to do about long covid? There is nothing to do. If everyone is gonna be infected at some point, the vaccines dont stop that either they try to reduce the likelihood of hospitalisation, what is there to do beyond what we have always done in this situation? Live with it.

Its good that the second link you posted acknowledges the reason for the restrictions was to flatten the curve. The number of infections doesnt matter, the number requiring medical care does. Because we are all gonna get it we just want to save the most lives.

Re: Heads in the sand

@Will Godfrey

"Abandoning just about all protective measures was the most stupid (and predicable) mistake this, and other governments could have made."

Applying such strict 'protective' measures has created huge problems. The supply chain issues with a lack of drivers since the training was paused. We have a serious inflation issue from the vast printing of money to pay people not to work. All of this doesnt seem to have helped but also seems to have been contrary to the expert advice already known.

Re: Love the bullshit

@msobkow

"It is about survival as we know it."

I am sure some people believe that. But even those who do surely cant be fooled into thinking the stupid decisions over energy generation was clever? At no point does it seem aligned with the goal of survival.

Re: When all the jobs are done by AI and robots...

@AC

"...and no-one has a job, who exactly is going to spend money to make those companies rich?"

I am sure people had the same fears when people moved out of the fields. Or out of the manufacturing plants. And yet the places with a vast surplus of labour seem stuck in those older ways.

Re: Love the bullshit

@Dimmer

"hoping for suggestions."

A few of us have been warning for a while. Like you say we can only go so far before something breaks, its broke. The green push made us heavily reliant on gas for electricity as well as heating appliances. We produce less electricity for much higher costs to make some people feel better at huge expense, as warned back when the gov offered the winter fuel allowance.

Covid panic printed vast amounts of money while shutting down the economy. So more money chasing less production. First this is causing inflation while the economy has a hard climb to recover.

We had 2 expensive wars and joined in blowing up other places while government gets bigger, spends more and takes money and resources from the economy. Tax's are rising to pay for the insanity but the problems are not being solved.

The minimum wage keeps rising but a job is only as worth doing as it makes money. Burger flippers worked hard to reduce their numbers and be replaced with increasing automation through demands for higher wages, Just wait for automated shipping/trucking.

This is gonna hurt and there is little we can do about it in the short term. This is what has been warned against. Now we can either undo the stupidity and put things on the right path or we can keep screwing up and cry things are bad.