* Posts by Richard Plinston

2608 publicly visible posts • joined 27 Apr 2009

Microsoft Surface: Designed to win, priced to fail

Richard Plinston

> Surface is cheaper than the iPad.

Only until tuesday.

Actually iPad2 is the comparison to Surface RT, and iPad2 is cheaper.

Richard Plinston

Re: DOA

> Magnesium case

The Surface Pro will have: Intel 'fry an egg' CPU, LiON 'exploding' battery and Magnesium 'incendiary' case.

What could possibly go wrong.

Oh, wait, the FAA could hear about this and ban them from being taken on commercial flights. ;-)

Richard Plinston

Re: The Surface works with a trackpad or mouse.

> MS-Office. ... I think Surface RT could be a great device for mobile employees like sales reps.

Note that Office RT that comes with Surface RT is not full office, it is a 'preview' (ie it doesn't work - working version due March or so), and is 'Home and Student' and _not_ licenced for business use.

"""Office Home and Student 2010 is licensed only for "non-commercial use for members of your household." """

http://www.zdnet.com/businesses-cant-use-office-on-windows-rt-tablets-7000005882/

Richard Plinston

Re: And all Apple has to do ?

> Proven track record - meaningless; MS aren't some unknown company.

MS does have a proven track record in tablet format devices: Slates, and something referred to as 'Pen and Ink', or is that just rhyming slang for it.

Richard Plinston

subsidized ?

> They should've subsidized hardware in the beginning

That would really have made the OEMs get out there and support Windows 8/RT. They would really want to help Microsoft by having to compete on price at a loss _and_ send $70-90 to them for every tablet they lose money on.

The hoarder's dilemma, or 'Why can't I throw anything away?'

Richard Plinston

My excuse

My excuse is that I remember the last years of rationing and of sitting in the chairs at Selfridges while the assistant patted up a block of butter from the barrel.

In those days nothing was ever thrown away because you never knew if you would get another.

Richard Plinston

Re: Benefit of Saving Old Crap

> I've also got an old IBM PC1, circa 1981, which last time I checked still boots up MS-DOS from its 20MB hard disk,

If it has a hard disk then surely it's a IBM PC XT which would be a couple of years later. I have a 5150 IBM PC here that is a 'model B' so it is not the initial model which is a model A. (there should be a blue ink stamp on the back panel with A or B in a circle). The PC (pre XT) has a cassette tape port as its most easily identifiable feature.

Richard Plinston

Re: 5.25 floppy drive and disks

> I still have a 5.25 floppy drive and disks if you need them for your museum

I still have 8" floppy drives and disks. I still have my first 'home' computer which had 2x8" 1Mb drives and I added another 2 drives by using a Polymorphic 8088 drive cabinet. (I still have the Polymorphic too from 1977 though it was 2nd hand).

Windows 8 'bad' analyst says Store is a weakness

Richard Plinston

> Also, the article writer is ridiculous to try and draw parralels between Firefox add ons and apps for Android

Exactly. The Firefox apps are _additional_ to Android apps.

Richard Plinston

> I thought Windows 8 users on any device were going to have access to the Android apps store? Wouldn't this mitigate any problems with having an under-developed native app store for the first few months?

There is product that will run on any desktop Windows (XP, 7 or 8) machine that will run Android apps. AMD have enhanced its performance on AMD GPUs (it still runs on Intel CPUs) and will be bundling it to the OEMs. This of course defeats MS's strategy.

MS wants to get users familiar with the not-Metro UI so that they demand the same for their phones and tablets. Thus they will buy all MS products and have the same UI for everything and will buy apps several times, once for each device (and once for user in the multi-user environment it seems). Being able to run Android apps on Windows desktop means that the users may buy Android phones and tablets and have the same UI (for apps) and apps across all devices, even if they keep XP or 7.

So Win8 SP1 is likely to have an 'upgrade' that stops this working, as an urgent security issue of course.

Nokia earnings pain masks intact war chest, brewing counterattack

Richard Plinston

Re: Amazing how much Symbian must be left after the torching ...

> does that really mean more than 50% of what Nokia sells as "smartphone" are still Symbian devices ?

No, but it could mean that N9/Meego is outselling Lumia/WP7

Richard Plinston

Re: As a Lumia 800 user I was disappointed we're not getting WP8

> since WP8 can run WP7 apps,

It seems that is not actually true. What will happen is that MS has a re-compiler that will convert the existing WP7 apps and repackage them so that Windows RT, and probably WP8, can run them. So there will be a version of (some or most) WP7 apps for WP8.

It may be that some developers may continue to develop WP7 apps and have them converted, but the new VS will no longer support WP7.

> and new WP7.8 phones are still going to be released into the future.

That seems very unlikely. Existing stock may continue to be sold, or remaindered. There was a rumour that Nokia was scrapping 1 million WP7 phones because they were unsold.

> Windows Phone 7 is not quite dead any more than Android Gingerbread is (well, apart from the user-base size)

I can buy new Android devices with 2.3.6 and put 4.0 (and later 4.1) on it. That will never happen for WP7 getting WP8 - completely different hardware.

> (and it is going to gain *some* functionality with WP7.8 after all),

As far as I can tell there is no new functionality in WP7.8, there is some cosmetic changes in the home page such as a few extra colours and a couple of different tile sizes. This is just to make it look the same as not-Metro.

Microsoft Surface ad targets preppy, Glee-watching youngsters

Richard Plinston

Re: The point is..........what?

> includes a copy of Office

The Surface RT includes a 'preview' (ie it doesn't work yet - update in March or so) of 'Home and Student'. This cannot be used by businesses.

"""Office Home and Student 2010 is licensed only for "non-commercial use for members of your household." """

http://www.zdnet.com/businesses-cant-use-office-on-windows-rt-tablets-7000005882/

> it is widescreen format.

The keyboard must be attached along the bottom where the connector is, this makes it difficult to use in portrait mode. The widescreen make portrait mode ugly as well and less than useful for reading or entering documents.

Richard Plinston

> What does RT stand for anyway? Really Terrible?

The XT in 'IBM PC XT' stood for eXtra Technology, The 'IBM AT' was Advanced Technology', so perhaps RT is Reduced Technology.

It's official: Apple will reveal 'a little more' on October 23

Richard Plinston

Timing is everything

This announcement, 3 days before MS's midnight one (which midnight though, the start of the day or the end?) seems to be a rain on MS's parade.

If it is a miniPad 7inch it will be making 10 inch tablets (ie Surface RT) so Last Year! I also suspect a price drop for iPad2 (not for new iPad) so that Surface will seem wildly overpriced. While they may be the same as new iPad it will be emphasized that the latter has far better screen.

'Stop-gap' way to get Linux on Windows 8 machines to be issued

Richard Plinston

Re: Protecting their investment

> This whole microsoft requirement stinks like shit; I'm as mad as fucking hell and my MP is damn sure going to know about it.

Then don't buy the machines, there is no requirement that you purchase a computer with Windows on it, there are plenty of other companies that will sell you the parts or machines without Windows. Granted they may not be in your local high street store.

Richard Plinston

Re: Protecting their investment

> Microsoft had contributed to the cost of the NB200 that was sold with Windows.

It is extremely unlikely that MS contributes actual money to a computer, it may discount the licence fee. It has been said that XP for netbooks cost $25 which is much less than what was charged XP on laptops and PCs. MS does also contribute to general advertising as long as such things as 'Designed for Windows', and no other OS are mentioned, are on the OEM's advertising.

> Even if I wanted to pay the extra, I couldn't get an NB200 without Windows.

That may be true. MS give 'loyalty' discounts to OEMs. As long as every one of particular models* are sold with Windows then there is a discount which is applied to _all_ licences. If they sell one machine of those models without Windows then they could lose the discount, not just for that machine, nor just for that model, but for _all_ MS software. That would be $millions.

* Other models may be offered without Windows due to anti-trust issues, but those would have lower sales and proper costings would give them higher prices.

Richard Plinston

Re: Protecting their investment

> WHY does MS think that it is OK for i86 to be allowed to be turned off, while ARM can't? That's one question I've not yet heard convincingly answered.

Because 'secure boot' not only locks out Linux, it also locks out XP and 7. MS would like to do that but the OEMs obviously would not, they have corporate customers that _will_ run XP or 7 and if the machine can't do that they will not buy them. If there was no option then the OEMs would make bare machines with no secure boot for that market. That would be unacceptable to MS as it loosens their control.

Home users, however, do not have an IT dept and will be unlikely to know or care how to turn it off. So they will not be able to try out CD or USB live Linux distros, nor set up a dual boot. Job done.

With ARM there is no previous Windows versions so locking out _everything_ does not disadvantage Windows users or OEMs while still achieving lockout of Linux and Android.

Richard Plinston

Re: disable secure boot on non-ARM platforms

> What these downvotes indicate to me, is that there are people here who actively dislike being shown that MS hasn't blocked Linux.

Which may be people who want to show MS as anti-competitive, Or it may be people who want MS to dominate the world and are upset that a Windows 8 machine could be corrupted with Linux (or Windows 7).

Samsung, not Nokia, fans' most favoured WinPho brand

Richard Plinston

> Windows Phone 8 will allow the customisation beyond rearranging tiles.

Yes, it will also allow rearranging the deckchairs ;-)

Richard Plinston

Re: I know one person with a WP7

> I know two people with one and they both love it.

How do they organize the sharing of it ? Do they love it only when the other person has it ?

10 million iPad minis to 'outshine' their big brother this quarter

Richard Plinston

Re: Not buying it

> You're assuming people make rational decisions whereas I'm fairly certain they don't.

If we each examine our own personal experiences critically, then we may each come to the different opinions that we hold on that matter.

>> someone who might buy both the normal iPad and iPhone decides to go half way and get one converged device

> Apple only buyers

You have suggested that (with the miniPad not being available) someone would decide to get a 7inch converged device, discover that Apple didn't make one and then buy a 10inch iPad _and_ an iPhone.

Surely if that someone was an Apple only buyer then they would _already_ have an iPad and an iPhone.

I also doubt that the 7-8 inch miniPad would be significantly less profitable than their other products. They will not be going downmarket to compete with Google or B&N. They don't need to undercut Surface because, it seems, those will be more expensive than iPads at current pricing.

Richard Plinston

Re: Not buying it

> someone who might buy both the normal iPad and iPhone decides to go half way and get one converged device in the miniPad and Apple loses the sale on both the higher margin devices

If they decide to buy one 7-8 inch 'converged' device then they would buy an Android if the miniPad was not there. Apple would lose on _all_ sales.

You are just "researching your keyboard"

Richard Plinston

Re: Not buying it

> that with an iPad mini, Apple will actually be cannibalizing its own sales which is true.

If someone want to buy a 7-8 inch device because it is less cumbersome than a 10 inch one then the miniPad will be taking some of Android's sales and this will not affect the 10inch iPad sale - because they wouldn't have bought one.

Anyone who buys a miniPad cannot be said to be 'cannibalizing Apples sales' because it _is_ an Apple sale.

It is possible that a miniPad may be slightly less profitable than an iPad but if they are cheaper they may sell more in total than otherwise and make more revenue and profit.

Richard Plinston

Re: Not buying it

> the last thing Apple needs is a lot of new min-iPads with a poor margin drawing sales away from higher margin kit

The last thing Microsoft needs is a lot of new min-iPads (and Androids) drawing sales away from all their new kit.

Ballmer aims chair at Apple after Windows package miss

Richard Plinston

Re: Ballmer is a Idiot

> Huh? It's a nice sounding theory except it's complete BS - their stock is essentially FLAT for 5-10 YEARS, just what are you talking about, seriously?

Exactly, that is why Ballmer gets a cut in his bonus and they are trying new strategies as a matter of urgency.

Richard Plinston

Re: Ballmer is a Idiot

> into a maker of low-margin, commodity gadgets

You have misread his intent. He wants to turn the company into a maker of _high-margin_ gadgets. He wants the 90% of computer users to have the WP7 UI forced on them so that it becomes the most familiar UI in the world. Then they will _demand_ that UI on all gadgets including desktop, tablet, phone, servers, TVs, cars, toilet seats, ...

That demand will mean that they will pay more for MS branded products than they will for Apple ones.

> because he sees someone making bigger profits

Microsoft has always had a business plan that requires they have increasing revenue and increasing profit. This keeps the stock price increasing. They pay their staff partly in stock options which they can continue to print and can claim tax exemption on. This allows them to keep most of their income rather than frittering it away by giving it to the employees or the government. This cash holding also keeps the stock price up.

They need to continue to increase revenue. Selling desktop Windows and Office software will not do that, they need to move into new areas, such as mobile and tablets. They need to grab more revenue from their partners, they need to copy Apple who is showing the way over increasing revenue. They think that they can build gadgets that will be profitable. To do that they need to kill Google, Android, Linux, Meego/Maemo and a few others.

German ebook firm aims low with cheap 'n' simple €10 ereader

Richard Plinston

Re: Only for Android!

> Seriously - after that article the other day saying that developers (a) claim they are mostly motivated by the size of the installed userbase, and (b) yet bizarrely they choose iphone,

You misread that article at the time and certainly failed to understand it. The developers stated that "*A* large userbase was required", they did not say 'the largest userbase' that you mistakenly think that it said.

Android has '*A* large userbase'. Apple has '*A* large userbase'. Most others do not.

> it's a refreshing change that someone caters to the *actual* number one selling platform for a change.

This product is not 'catering to the actual number one platform' it is catering to the platform that it can access. It is likely that, for the purposes it needs, iOS is too closed.

HP: PC industry has forgotten how to innovate

Richard Plinston

Re: Sigh

> Black and Decker still seem to be doing alright out of selling screwdrivers and hammers.

And Dell are doing really well with their bicycles and skateboards.

'It's not a post-PC world: Just a post Windows one, maybe'

Richard Plinston

Re: windows is a niche OS

> 3) Home users buying a new computer will still have Windows 8 slapped on them by the manufacturers.

Microsoft is trying to emulate Apple: app store, high street shop, premium tablets, phones. They will be taking revenue and profit from their OEMs and will still be taxing them on everything they make, and controlling what they can make. OEMs will eventually wake up that they are the slaves.

OEMs could decide that they could become another Apple. They make the hardware, have online sales. They could use Google app store plus one of their own. Given it is the OEMs who have relationships with the retail stores they may not need to open their own.

HP are still active with WebOS, they could go back to making these (with an Android environment on top).

But the main issue with your state 3 is the assumption that home users are mindless drones that walk into a shop every three years or so and buy a new computer and it turns out to have Windows on it. That used to be the case in previous years, they did it because their existing computer became clogged up with so much stuff that it was slow and unresponsive. The only option they saw was to throw it out and buy a new one. Computers that were spritely when new became tired and useless after a couple of years or less. It is almost like the OS was designed to do that.

Windows XP SP3 and Windows 7 mostly fixed that problem. Fewer machines are being replaced. iPad fixed that problem. Less use is made of the PC as the iPad does the email and browsing, so the PC is less annoying.

Given that their budget only stretches to one machine they may buy an iPad or a Samsung this time rather than replacing the old PC.

So home users may well go into a shop, but they may buy something other than a Windows PC, or in hard times they may buy nothing.

Microsoft sets date for Windows Phone 8 unveiling

Richard Plinston

Re: Microsoft have come a LONG way in a short time

> Windows Phone 7 in 2010 was a huge improvement.

> Windows CE was god awful.

WP7 was still CE, which is why it was still awful.

http://wmpoweruser.com/microsoft-finally-confirms-windows-phone-7-runs-on-windows-ce-7/

Richard Plinston

Re: Grumpy old codgers

> with a UI many find repellent

It seems to me that the UI was designed to overcome issues that existed in the previous WM series given the limitations that were imposed by using a single tasking OS and a single core design.

Just as MS-DOS developers had to use TSRs to overcome the single tasking limitations of DOS to give some pseudo appearance of multi-tasking, WP7 had the equivalent of TSRs to give 'active tiles' and some illusion of background tasking. Tombstoning also gave the appearance of task switching and avoided any background app using the rather limited CPU time on the hardware dictated by MS.

Given these limitations, an active home screen was designed to be where most users would leave their phones so that they could keep up with twits, facebook friends and emails. Apps were to be transient things that interfered with the purpose of the phone. Microsoft considers that the OS _is_ the computer and that everything has to revolve around that.

With a small screen and limited functional requirements that is almost a useful viewpoint. The UI could have been done in other ways, such as is done by Android and iOS but that would require actual multi-tasking, and other ways of overcoming problems when one task uses too much CPU time (eg with multi-core CPUs).

The problem that MS has is they have almost no presence in mobile, and it has been falling. Even last quarter showed a reduction in market share. It's only mobile UI is that of WP7. It has to use that because it would take years to develop yet another. (it could revert to WM6.5 UI and relive the 90s). But the UI is designed around using full screen (on 480x800 what else would be useful), single-tasking (with TSR like 'active tiles'), and simple graphics with clean fonts (on 480x320 and 800x480 of course).

Translating this to desktops and even to tablets and laptops which run from 1200x800 to 1980x1080, and have multi-core CPUs, and beyond makes no sense to those used to multiple windows and widgets.

MS-DOS, TSRs, Windows 1 tiled windows, WP7 UI all made sense given the limitations where they were used. Now Microsoft has no option but to impose that on all Windows because they have no other for mobile and need to make all users 'familiar' with it so that they will think of it as normal.

Mobe app makers doubt Windows 8 will be worth the hassle - poll

Richard Plinston

> Wordperfect, 123 and dBase. Then along came Office. Where are they now?

WP, 123 and dBase ran on MS operating systems. The ongoing court case between Novell and Microsoft alleges that MS deliberately made it impossible for WP to access OS features that Office had access too.

There are laws against that.

Richard Plinston

Re: Android is the largest platform!

> No he isn't. Re-read his post. He is saying that the respondents to the survey said that size of the install base was the most important criterion to them. He's not saying what he thinks their motivations are, he's saying what they say their motivations are and pointing out a contradiction with other things they say.

You have misread the post, just as Mark did. He even quoted the bit he misread:

"a large install base is their number-one criterion when picking a platform to write for"

It says "A large base", not, as Mark later criticises them for "the iphone platform that isn't, and has never been the largest userbase?".

The indefinite article and the lack of comparative or superlative indicates that it only need be large, and is not required to be the largest. There is no contradiction by the developers, only in your misreading of it.

Richard Plinston

Re: Android is the largest platform!

> The extra effort of having to write for different screen sizes, different hardware, different Os versions and different memory profiles

Whereas writing for WM6/WM6.5/WP7/WP8 was a complete joy with consistent languages, OS and API, and the fixed screen sizes of 320x480 and 800x480 make moving to Metro/Surface/WP8 a doddle. Oh wait ..

Richard Plinston

> it'll have the complete back catalogue of x86 Windows software

For tablets that back catalogue is of little use. Windows Slates have been available for years and only sold in a niche market because the software mostly requires a keyboard and mouse and therefore a laptop is more suitable. In fact the Surface is really a laptop that wont work on your lap because the keyboard joint is floppy.

> on most of the 400 million PCs sold a year

PC sales are not a one sided transaction. They require a seller _and_ a buyer. The sale requires that someone decides 'I want that' and puts down the money.

If in the retail store the customer sees TIFKAM and decides that is what they didn't want on their phone they may decide that they don't want that. They may buy an iPad or Galaxy instead, or buy nothing. In many cases they will already have an XP or Win7 machine which they may have replaced in a 3 year cycle, but could decide that it is 'good enough', and use the money to pay off their credit card instead.

Richard Plinston

Re: Android is the largest platform!

> they're talking rubbish about their motivations.

You are making the mistake that you think their motivations should be based on the number of phones sold, or the total number in use, or of the revenue of those phone sales. But developers don't earn money from the sale of phones, they get it from the sales of apps, or perhaps from the usage of apps for ad-supported free ones.

Apple still leads the market in that vital area:

"""App Annie estimates that Apple’s app revenue edge over Google is 71% to 29% worldwide."""

Microsoft plans midnight launch for Surface

Richard Plinston

Re: Shhhh! - you'll ground the suspended disbelief!

> at midnight on October 26

Excuse me is that the midnight just before 2012-10-26 00:00:01 or the midnight just after 2012-10-26 23:59:59 ?

> an NZ boy becoming the "first in the world" to buy a copy of Win95 (queued for a day for the midnight opening).

He probably turned up at the wrong midnight and had nothing better to do for the next 24 hours.

Microsoft installs new Win8 evangelism boss – weeks before launch

Richard Plinston

> Windows 8 will run all Android apps anyway, so hardly a big difference versus Apple.

LOL!

The reason that Metro is compulsory on Windows 8 is because MS sees its future with users having the same UI and apps on all their computers: Desktop, tablet, phone, TV, car, washing machine. WP7 has failed (in that it has yet to get any traction in the market and has less share than WM6.x had) because, experts tell them, the UI is unfamiliar. The plan is to make TIFKAM "the most familiar UI then users will demand it on the phones and tablets".

If, however, as you say, users can get Android apps on their desktops (including on XP and W7), phones and tablets then Windows 8 will have failed before it was released.

Of course MS may yet be able to build into Windows 8, and even on XP and W7, as an urgent 'security' update, a means that stops BlueStreak running. They have done this before with AARD code in Windows and with Win32s that prevented it running on OS/2. They once had a jingle "The job ain't done 'til Lotus won't run".

The downfall of OS/2 was when it included 'a better Windows than Windows'. It really was better than 3.11, but the problem was that developers (including me) decided that it was more useful to develop for Windows than for OS/2. The programs would then run on both. So few continued to develop for OS/2.

So I don't know why you think it a good thing that Windows (from XP to 8) will run Android apps. Perhaps you are too young to remember*. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.

* This is a dig at your childish optimism over all things Microsoft.

Bone-bothering boffins pull TINY fanged dinosaur from drawers

Richard Plinston

Re: Cat's are great judges of character!

> 3) If you ...

Advice from the man who has had several wives ?

Paul Allen: Windows 8 'promising' yet 'puzzling'

Richard Plinston

Re: a more consistent experience with cycling.

If only it were. But in fact the analogy for what has replaced the steering wheel is more like the mechanism of a skateboard.

Microsoft releases JavaScript alternative

Richard Plinston

Re: because JavaScript was never intended for the roles it has found itself serving today

> it would need a hardware abstraction layer to cater for different hardware and an easily replaceable front-end to cater for different users.

All CP/M systems consisted of 3 parts: The BDOS, the core operating system that was the same in all systems (for a particular version), the BIOS which contained the hardware abstraction layer, and the CCP (Console Command Processor), which could be replaced by any other front-end.

> Then I discovered that MSDOS

SCP-DOS, later called MS-DOS, was a clone of CP/M for 8086/8088 and kept the exact same structure, including the ability to replace the CCP (called command.com). It happend that on IBM PCs there was a BIOS in ROM so the MS-DOS BIOS on those machines could be quite small, while on, say, S100 based systems it was very much like a CP/M BIOS.

Windows 8 early-bird users still love Windows 7 more - poll

Richard Plinston

> it still baffles me why MS chose to not include the ability to turn off the 'Not Metro' start screen and go back to the normal Windows desktop.

Microsoft have had 'consultants and experts' tell them that desktop is dying and that mobile is the new place to be, as evidenced by iThings and Android. MS have missed this and, even though they had slate and WM for years, have failed with WP7 to get any traction.

The 'expert' opinion' is that WP7 failed because of lack of familiarity with the UI (rather than it was years behind what the market wanted). The solution is to force the UI down everyone's throats until they become familiar with it. Then they will _demand_ it on their tablets and phones, and on their fridges, cars, TVs and wrist watches. Job done, world dominated.

What the experts failed to notice is that a different result may occur: "that's the interface I didn't want on my phone and I don't want it on my next computer".

Richard Plinston

Re: I remember 10 or so years ago

> Windows XP was slagged off all over the place,

It was when it was first released. By SP2 it had become stable and useful and the slagging stoppped. It wasn't the people that changed, it was XP.

> history has been rewritten to hold up XP as being the best MS OS ever!

No, it was XP that was rewritten, XP-SP3 was what was better. If you understood history better then you may make more useful comments.

>The criticisms of Windows 8 seem to be far more like with XP, rather than say Vista

Vista did get better, but was still worse than XP. Windows 8 may well become OK when SP2 or 3 make Metro go away.

AMD launches Android app store for Windows PCs

Richard Plinston

> Why would you want the mobile version

One may ask why would anyone want a mobile UI and phone apps on Windows 8, such as that imposed by TIFKAM.

The reason that MS is doinig that is to make everything the same across desktop, tablet and phone. BlueStacks does exactly the same, but using Android apps (and tablets and phones).

It may well be useless for games with mouse, but so will TIFKAM on a desktop, as already pointed out. It does, however, allow functional Android apps to be run across all platforms, including XP, Windows 7 and, eventually, MacOS. A Linux version may be nice, possibly it could be derived from the MacOS one.

Windows 8: Never mind Office, it's for GAMING

Richard Plinston

Re: You're kidding me; right?

> You could say the same of a book, DVD, CD, etc. I see no difference.

No, you don't do you. Sad really.

You probably see no difference between 'driver's ed' and 'Grand Theft Auto V' or 'Drift Runner'. They all teach you how to drive don't they ?

Richard Plinston

more as a devices-and-services company.

Microsoft have a history of having 'partners' until they want the revenue their partners have built up.

MS also seem to want to be more like Apple, they want to sell services and these may subsidize devices, just like happened with XBox (which is still several billion in the red). The OEMs and retailers would not be able to compete if MS subsidized Surface with, say, a 2 year services contract. I suspect that they do not want to build WP8 phones against Nokia being given $1billion to take their market (but may be forced to by 'loyalty' discounts).

Win8 tablets may cost MORE than iPads – AND LAPTOPS

Richard Plinston

Re: @David Cantrell Shiny stuff is cheaper." Well, actually that was pretty much what........

> the sweet spot in the modern market being $300 - $800

That is _not_ what he said:

"If you look at the bulk of the PC market," he said, "it would run between, say, probably $300 to about $700 or $800. That's the sweet spot."

The 'that' refers to "about $700 or $800" being the sweet spot. That is what buyers will pay while manufacturers and retailers can actually make a profit.

"$300 - $800" is not a 'spot', it is the complete range. $300 is nowhere near 'sweet' for Ballmer, the OEMs, or retailers.

Richard Plinston

Re: "Also they _do_ have to factor in $75-100 for licence." If you read my post again you will......

> They utterly refused to accept lower margins or even a certain degree of "loss leader" pricing

If you think they are overpriced then don't buy them.

You just seem to want stuff to be given to you cheaply.

> (and their commercial challenges otherwise are pretty much identical whether they are producing Android tablets or Windows tablets)

Not true at all.

No one is dictating what components to use when they make Android tablets. Having to factor in $75-100 means that that can only make top of the market models.

> They utterly refused to accept lower margins or even a certain degree of "loss leader" pricing when Android* for tablets first came out with the result that the Android os was to all practical intents and purposes crippled commercially for the first year or so after launch.

You don't seem to understand what 'crippled commercially' means. It is when you _can't_ make a profit. And yet you complain that they should have run at a loss.

While Microsoft could sell XBox at a loss by subsidising it with Windows and Office sales, and hopefully making it up with games (though it is still billions in the red), what point does Dell or ASUS have to subsidise their products ? What services can they sell to make up ?

You are just whining because you can't afford shiny stuff.

Richard Plinston

Re: @Ye Gads "In fairness" I agree. I think that I would also add something that some.........

> grotesquely overcharging whether they are paying for a license or not

You seem to have a disjoint from reality. OEMs are not there to promote one OS or another, they exist to make a _profit_.

Pricing is primarily based on cost, there are fixed costs (factory, staff, etc) and variable costs (components, outwork), development costs and setup costs. A new product has a cost to develop it to the point where it may become manufactured, this has to be recovered over some number of manufactured units.

Because the whole 'Windows tablets' market will be split over several OEMs (including Microsoft), and over several models the initial manufacturing runs of each model will be relatively small (also to reduce failure risk). Development and setup costs will be spread over few units, component and outwork costs will be high because of small batches being purchased. High costs -> high price.

Also they _do_ have to factor in $75-100 for licence. They also have to buy these in bulk and are unlikely to get a refund if they don't use them up. There is also marketing costs, retail margins, and a factor to cover returns and warranty costs.

What do you want? companies to sell stuff at a loss so that they go broke?

This also happened in the early days of Android: high development cost, small production runs, high component costs, high costs -> high prices. Now these costs have reduced, so have prices.

Apple, on the other hand, has high market share, small numbers of models, large production runs, reduced component costs (due to large batch orders) and lower risk because they can more accurately predict demand.