* Posts by Richard Plinston

2608 publicly visible posts • joined 27 Apr 2009

Best budget Android smartphone there is? Must be the Moto G

Richard Plinston

Re: The VERY definition of Android Landfill @ Nick

> The battery is glued AND hidden behind a soldered-in sheet metal box.

You are confused. It is the micro SD card that is 'hidden behind a soldered-in sheet metal box', not the battery.

While there is some adhesive to prevent the battery shifting, it is not "glued in" to make it irremovable as you imply.

"""Step 5: Now carefully remove the battery. He is stuck with gentle force and we got but going on him a knife."""

Anyone with two clues could change the battery (which puts you out), but it is more likely that any competent service company could do it in a couple of minutes, with _no_ risk, when they sell the battery.

Richard Plinston

Re: The VERY definition of Android Landfill @ Nick

> The glued in battery is guaranteed built in obsolescence;

Sorry to disappoint you, but the battery is not glued in.

I don't know where you got that from, just made it up probably. The battery is replaceable but needs screws removed and the connector disconnected.

http://www.areamobile.de/b/2267-teardown-das-moto-g-und-die-speicher-frage-update

Richard Plinston

Re: Why?

> So you can expect a few GB at most. 3GB or so.

If you had read the article instead of leaping into unfounded speculation, you would had learnt:

"""8GB or 16GB – around 5.5GB and 13.5GB, respectively, after the system has had its share."""

Also:

"""Thankfully, the Moto G supports USB On-The-Go hosting out of the box."""

Just carry a 32Gb USB stick or seven, or a several terabyte USB 3.5inch disk.

iPhone slips in Europe as Windows Phone claims OVER 10% market share

Richard Plinston

Re: Lolz

> Win 6x is far from dead... its still the OS of choice for handheld point of sale terminal....

While both WM6.x and some POS terminals may be based on CE (as is other embedded stuff), that doesn't make the POS terminals run WM6.x.

> [iPhone] 4 - os is hobbled compared to 4s, probably wont support ios8

The iPhone 3 is 5 1/2 years old. iPhone 4 is 3 1/2 years and runs the latest iOS 7 (minus what requires hardware it doesn't have).

Some may have bought a WP 7 just over a year ago and all they got as 'updates', and maybe all they will ever get, was twice as many colours on the start screen.

Richard Plinston

Re: I'd like to think

> (and hand future revenue over to Google)?

Google does not make revenue at the expense of phone makers. Google's revenue is from things that phone makers generally do not do. If they did want to do that, such as send advertising, or search, or maps, then they can do so without using Google at all.

> profit is sanity?

Then making Windows Phones is insane. Nokia are running at a loss, in spite of huge subsidies from Microsoft. I doubt that other WP makers made much if any at all.

Richard Plinston

> a chance of taking the #2 spot from Apple.

While in some markets in Europe WP may have around 10%, worldwide it is still at the 4% mark, and this is with the cheap end of the market and subsidized by Microsoft with $1billion/year plus marketing help.

Richard Plinston

Re: Lolz

> there's no real landfill Windows Phone category.

Windows Mobile 6.x phones were dead-ended by its replacement WP7 being completely incompatible in hardware and software.

Windows Phone 7 phones were dead-ended by its replacement WP8 being completely incompatible in hardware and software.

Next will be the Windows Phone 8 phones (and Surface RT/2 tablets) when Microsoft dumps both to replace them with a 'converged product' that is incompatible with either.

US Justice Department on Microsoft's Nokia acquisition: 'Go for it'

Richard Plinston

Microsoft will also take over Nokia's Espoo, Finland, headquarters

In the article linked to it claims:

"""Microsoft will assume ownership and management of the facility"""

My understanding is that Nokia sold the building and rented back office space, so Microsoft will take on the liability of a long term lease.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/04/nokia-completes-sales-and-lease-back-of-its-espoo-finland-hq/

Microsoft wields turkey knife, slices Surface to $199 for Black Friday

Richard Plinston

Re: Still $100 too much

>> "Android. Maemo, Meego, Jolla, Tizen, ..."

> #1 is the only really useable OS there

I very much doubt that you have even seen the others, let alone tried them. Given that the N9 outsold WP when and where it was allowed to be available it would seem that the users found it perfectly usable.

I suspect that you were one of the posters that complained that people were criticising WP when they hadn't tried it, it seems pot, ... kettle,.. something.

> that's still a cut down - not a fully functional OS like RT

Sorry, but RT _is_ cut-down. It is less than Windows 8 so it is not 'fully functional'.

On Android I can do development "with a full Java / C / C++ / HTML / Android development kit, that runs on your Android device." Can RT do that ? I thought not.

> And it doesn't have a proper version of Office available

It may well be that you think 'Office' is the answer to all questions, but many are not obsessed by 'form over function' that requires 73 different fonts and 120 ways of styling a paragraph. QuickOffice, or one of the many others, is enough for the majority on mobile devices.

Richard Plinston

Re: Still $100 too much

>> "Probably a lot more once you get an ARM Linux variant on it."

> Yeah, except name one that has even sort of semi decent touch screen support.

Android. Maemo, Meego, Jolla, Tizen, ...

Hello! Still here! Surface 2! Way better than iPad! says slightly desperate Microsoft

Richard Plinston

Re: Own and use a Surface RT excellent laptop replacement

> """For the 32GB version of the new [Surface RT] tablet, users have access to only 16GB of storage, with the remaining half taken up by Windows recovery tools, Windows RT, Microsoft Office, and built-in apps."""

> The Verge has it wrong even with respect to the original RT. Since I enjoyed using my Surface 2, I bought a RT for my parents. It comes with 16GB open WITH everything including MS Office installed.

So, you are actually saying that the Verge is right: on a Surface RT 32Gb (they were reviewing the original RT), as delivered, there is 16Gb available. Which you confirm.

Richard Plinston

Re: As consumers just scratch their heads...

> Meanwhile, probably 75% of the iPads I see in the wild are propped up and/or have real keyboards thanks to 1st or 3rd party accessories.

What _is_ unique to Surface is that, due to the floppy way the keyboard connects, and it must be connected*, and the way the stand operates, it is only usable in landscape, and is almost completely unusable on the lap.

In comparison there are several keyboard/covers/stands that allow landscape or portrait and/or remote keyboards and/or comfortable and stable laptop use. With the combination cover/keyboard/stand the tablet can be propped up on an airline tray while the keyboard is used on the lap - much preferred.

* I understand there will be an additional cost item that will allow a bluetooth keyboard to be used on Surface 2/pro 2. But it is still stuck in 16:9 landscape by the stand.

Richard Plinston

Re: Own and use a Surface RT excellent laptop replacement

> I think the Surface is a better option storage wise.

"""For the 32GB version of the new [Surface RT] tablet, users have access to only 16GB of storage, with the remaining half taken up by Windows recovery tools, Windows RT, Microsoft Office, and built-in apps."""

http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/5/3603652/microsoft-surface-windows-rt-disk-space

Richard Plinston

> Something the iToy can dream of!

You appear to be, yet again, completely uninformed.

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ipad+keyboard&client=firefox-a&hs=Jp6&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=jESWUq_JNpGtkgX584HYDg&ved=0CGsQsAQ&biw=1469&bih=860

You may be unaware of the concept, but it is called consumer choice.

Richard Plinston

> Commerce isn't a gentleman's game. It's a fight to the death.

Most competitors know that co-operation is valuable. They rely on providing better services and products to grow rather than tearing down the market and trying to kill competitors with price-wars or other destructive methods.

Microsoft, however, does not just want to win, it wants to make everyone else fail. It doesn't do that with better products, it does it, or at least has done it in the past, with abusive contracts, predatory pricing (such as 'loyalty' discounts) and by 'partnerships' that turn out to be one-way.

Microsoft hires Pawn Stars to shaft Google

Richard Plinston

Re: RT?

> That's like saying that Windows XP or NT were not real Windows.

No. It's like saying Windows Phone isn't real Windows. It isn't if it doesn't run real Windows applications or real Windows games.

Richard Plinston

Re: RT?

> Surface RT is NOT a laptop,

Absolutely, it is completely unusable on your lap. The floppy keyboard connection, the single poor screen angle (2! on Surface 2), the bad weight distribution (compared to a laptop), the distance from keyboard edge to rear stand forcing the keyboard too close. Swipe the screen wrong and it will go to the floor.

Meet the BlackBerry wizardry that created its 'better Android than Android'

Richard Plinston

> it stand to reason that by 4.5 or 5.0 ART will be default and all Blackberry's effort will seem rather pointless.

ART is open source too. BB can build their own version.

In any case ART does run Dalvik apps, it just starts them faster by running the 'JIT' compiler on installation rather than at app startup (plus other optimizations). The apps aren't any different so they will still run under Android Dalvik* and BB Dalvik.

* NOTE: there is no plan to obsolete every app** in the play store nor all pre-4.5 Andoid phones** and tablets just to make BB unhappy.

** cf Windows Mobile 6.x and Windows Phone 7 where they _did_ do that to their own developers, OEMs and customers.

Richard Plinston

Re: "If it uses QNX rather than Linux"

> Linux, originally conceived as a Unix-like substitute in larger machines.

Linux originally ran on 80386 machines, which were considerably less powerful than even the most modest ARM phone.

It happens that Linux can scale from very small machines to supercomputers.

Julie Larson-Green: Yes, MICROSOFT is going to KILL WINDOWS

Richard Plinston

> So phone or RT will go or merge.

So now those developers that have bothered to do WP or RT apps will be faced with yet another dead-ending just as happened with WP6.x and WP7. Now either WP8 or WRT will be dead-ended, or both will be, to be replaced by yet another incompatible iteration.

Richard Plinston

Re: the crazy thing is

> Do you not remember all the people saying that MS had to have an ARM offering, absolutely had to, otherwise it was going to fail? That's why they put a load of cash into developing RT, unfortunately it didn't work out for them that well...

Actually they have had an ARM offering for a long time: CE. This was the MS-DOS/Windows 2/3 of the ARM world. Single tasking with a TSR like background tasking.

What they needed was a viable ARM offering they could use to threaten their OEMs with 'loyalty' discounts to stop them using other ARM OSes such as Linux/Android or WebOS. More importantly to stop them building ARM based servers until MS could get their ARM server OS finished (which may be another couple of years).

Richard Plinston

Re: still behind.

> windows is leagues ahead of its rivals in so many ways ...

> 1. The desktop version of their kernel is now running on desktops and their flagship console

I am not sure why you think that makes Microsoft 'ahead'. Android runs on the Linux kernel, iOS kernel is also based on BSD/Darwin as MacOS is. MS managed to get WP and RT on NT kernel last year, about two years behind.

Leaked MS ad video parodies Chrome as surveillance tech

Richard Plinston

Re: Actually...

> No, it was a leaked email using the email password change vulnerability in Gmail...

Microsoft uses GMail ?

Whoda thort.

Wintel must welcome Androitel and Chromtel into cosy menage – Intel

Richard Plinston

Re: ooooouch

> That's simply not true. An Independent study by HP showed that it cost at least €30 million MORE to move to Linux

That 'study' was _NOT_ indepenent, it was funded by Microsoft.

http://www.itworld.com/open-source/337658/microsoft-wont-release-study-challenged-success-munichs-linux-migration

And Microsoft probably funded your lies too.

Given that Munich is aware of what it spends and what it would to have spent it knows the 'study' is wrong:

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/City-of-Munich-disagrees-with-HP-s-Linux-migration-study-1797232.html

> - much of which was eaten by IBM -

Which is denied by IBM.

> but still - and the claims on Windows TCO are also untrue - they still have to use Windows when they need to do real work like use a version of office that actually works - via Citrix - and those costs are also not counted in their 'gains'....The massaged numbers were released by the Linux focused team running this ten year shambles so go figure...

No. Munich itself released the real numbers.

Richard Plinston

Re: ooooouch

> And whilst the project has achieved some savings in operating costs (excluding the migration costs), those savings would have been even greater migrating to a modern Windows version!

I don't know whether you are uninformed, lying, or merely confused:

"""By switching from Windows to LiMux, its own Linux distribution, the German city of Munich has saved over €11 million ($14.3 million) to date compared to the costs of a similar migration to a more modern Microsoft-based IT infrastructure."""

http://www.itworld.com/operating-systems/321474/switching-linux-saves-munich-over-11-million

Richard Plinston

Re: ooooouch

> selling low-end ARMs at a razor-thin margins while selling ultra-high end ARMs at big fat margins.

What you may not know is that the really low-end ARM processors have been selling at around 50 cents in several thousand lots for many years. High end ARMs are cheaper than Celerons.

Nokia's phone division burned us so badly we HAD to flog it, says CEO

Richard Plinston

Re: android......if only....

> Windows Phone is far more suited to high value markets like enterprises and high end handsets than Android is and was therefore the better long term choice...

Unfortunately, in spite of $billions from Microsoft, they had to be sold at a loss in order to get any market share at all. The 'long term choice' turned out to be a short term disaster requiring even more $billions from MS to take it over and make even more losses.

WP7 certainly was _not_ suited to 'high value' as it was based on CE and was the last of the 90s era devices. The high end of the Lumia range may be 'high value' but are not distinctive enough from the 'bargain binned' low priced models. All WP phones look the same on the screen (deliberately), all Lumia are bright colors (or possibly anonymous black).

If the top end looks just like last year's model in the bargain bin then it has no 'bragging rights' (which is why most new phones are bought anyway).

Your kids' chances of becoming programmers? ZERO

Richard Plinston

Re: So fix it!

> people like the things they are exposed to early on, ... they have a very strong tendency to like what they get used to first, when they're children.

That is complete nonsense.

I recall music that I was exposed to when I was a young child. I hated it then and I still hate it now.

OTOH I listen to reasonably diverse styles of music, some of which I first heard within the last few years.

Richard Plinston

Re: So fix it!

> That's because it's bollocks to say that not everyone thinks the same way - they blatantly do.

You say that only because you are incapable of understanding that not everyone thinks like you - and you never will.

Richard Plinston

Re: So fix it!

> Yes. Totally. If someone wants to paint a masterpiece all they have to do is devote 10-20 years to mastering the technical skills and thinking - really thinking - about what it is they want to say. I don't think it's any shock to realize that most people are not in fact motivated to do that. But it is theoretically doable. Ask any artist.

Your assertion is complete nonsense. But one finds that about 'artists' (or musicians, or poets, or ... computer programmers), they are incapable of understanding that not everyone thinks like they do - and never will.

A Jazz musician was being interviewed on the radio and he was disappointed that youngsters were not flocking to jazz concerts. His solution was to get together a group and go around all the schools and play jazz to them. He claimed that all that was needed to love jazz was enough exposure to it.

That is the sort of deranged thinking that led Microsoft to force Metro/Modern down everyone's throats.

Richard Plinston

Re: BBC Basic

> What I loved about BBC Basic was ...

> How I longed for a version of basic that could be compiled rather than interpreted but that never came to pass

"""A Compiler for BBC BASIC V was produced by Paul Fellows, team leader of the Arthur OS development, and published initially by DABS Press."""

Richard Plinston

Re: Old Manuals

> I bet you can even get COBOL free.

http://www.opencobol.org/

Samsung debuts its spanking new Tizen OS-for-mobes .... in a camera

Richard Plinston

Re: Samsung-controlled?

> You're the market leader, but your succes is based on an OS which is built and controlled by someone else, and that someone else is focusing on his own revenue rather than yours. That focus may eventually result in decisions that do not align with the direction of your business - or downright harm you.

I thought you were talking about Nokia until I reread the first paragraph.

Richard Plinston

Re: "the smallest version can fit in 256 KB of RAM"

> The Linux kernel itself requires more to run. So i kinda doubt it.

I used to run a Linux distro (FreeSCO) that booted off a 1.44Mb diskette and ran on a 20Mb 80386. Granted it was a 2.4 kernel.

Puppy Linux can run on a 64Mb machine with a GUI and useful applications, though 128Mb would be better.

http://puppylinux.org/wikka/MinimumSystemRequirements

How to relieve Microsoft's Surface RT piles problem

Richard Plinston

Re: The problem is the analysis

> Furthermore, it makes complete sense to ditch win32 altogether, since that's the only way of leveraging a new generation of apps. We cannot be tied to 30 years old code / principles and every push in the direction of evolution should be praised.

Exactly, which is why people have bought Apple or use Linux, or ChromeOS. They have ditched win32 entirely.

Richard Plinston

Re: Three out of Four Reasons

> Funny that the SurfaceRT I bought last week from a UK electronics chain cost £259

That is because Surface RT is the obsolete model (replaced by Surface 2) and MS took a $900million writedown and put them in the bargain bins before they had to write off another couple of billion.

> as well as to generate invoices using Office.

That is a business use that is specifically disallowed by your license for Office RT Student and Home edition (or preview). You need to purchase a commercial license for that product.

(which is another reason why it didn't sell).

Richard Plinston

> Microsoft produced a crippled ARM tablet so they could have a product that can compete with the iPad and Android tablets.

I think that it went more like:

Microsoft produced WindowsOnARM so that it could wave 'loyalty discounts' (removal thereof) at its OEMs to prevent them make Android tablets, and more importantly, Linux based ARM servers.

This worked with HP who decided that dumping WebOS was cheaper than losing discounts on _all_ products.

But then MS had to make some ARM products.

Meanwhile several companies decided that they had sufficient alternatives to tell Microsoft that if the loyalty discounts were lost they would stop making Windows PCs and make Android, Chrome, Tizen and Ubuntu products, which they now make alongside Windows.

Android in FOUR out of 5 new smartphones. How d'ya like dem Apples?

Richard Plinston

> Windows phone sales grew over 150% - about 4X the rate of market growth.

Article: 'Windows Phone handsets saw sales grow 156 per cent,'

IDC: ""Windows Phone handsets saw sales grow 156 per cent, ... with 9.5 million units during the period."""

They only did 3.7 million in Q32012. That was a particular low point because of the deadening of WP7 and the unavailability of WP8. In the previous quarter they sold 5.4 million.

'Daddy, can I use the BLACK iPAD?': Life with the Surface Pro 2

Richard Plinston

Re: Stop stating patently wrong facts as truth!

> Microsoft ARE NOT late to tablets. They were YEARS ahead of Apple.

"""Apple's first tablet computer was the Newton MessagePad 100,[16][17] introduced in 1993, which led to the creation of the ARM6 processor core with Acorn Computers."""

> Please try and do some research before stating $%^ like that.

Likewise.

Richard Plinston

Re: unhelpful review

> Once you have PC or tablet software that can do interesting things with camera input

I have a Panasonic camera with WiFi and can link to it with my tablet or phone and drive the zoom, set focus point, and take pictures remotely. It can download to the tablet for post processing or upload to web sites. For taking movies the tablet can be used to follow focus.

It doesn't work with Windows, RT or WP though.

Richard Plinston

Re: Wrong comparison

> If it was a review of the Surface Pro (and this is another problem with Microsoft's marketing - the confusion between RT and Pro)

A confusion that you seem to have added to.

> Pretty sure there are tens of millions of third party apps for windows.

Almost none of which as usable on a touch tablet*.

* They may be almost usable with stylus and keyboard, but then you would be much better off with a proper laptop for those applications (not 'apps') rather than something that is not usable on one's lap, nor usable in pure touch tablet form for those.

Microsoft advertises Surface, Excel with maths mistake

Richard Plinston

Re: The gift that keeps on giving

> for reading/writing it on Windows and Mac, you would install a small application.

That is one of the reasons that Microsoft is moving to the walled garden model. On RT and WP8 - NO, you will NOT install a small app to do that. On Windows 9 it may be that NO, you will NOT install a small application either, we shall see.

Nvidia CEO: Android 'the most disruptive operating system in decades'

Richard Plinston

Re: Disruptive is a fair description

> For example Apis using mapping or locational functionality may find it harder to support non google approved forks. (Think mor Amazon and possibly in the future samsung).

Google provides services and uses this to generate revenue. If an phone maker wants to make phones that access Google maps or search or play then he should make an agreement with Google to do so. If he wishes to use Apple or Nokia's mapping or Bing or someone else's services for anything then he would be expected to have an agreement with those services and include to APIs to access those.

There is no restriction from Google on using Android and having mapping APIs from any other mapper or search or whatever. What Google does is to restrict open-slather, unconstrained, access to its services by requiring makers to agree to particular terms.

Actually even a rouge fork can still access Google search and maps, but it would use the browser, or something similar, to do so.

Richard Plinston

Re: Disruptive is a fair description

> An increasingly large portion of the core is being moved to a closed source code base, entirely under Google's control.

In what way ? The kernel mods have been submitted to the mainline kernel.

Google are working on a replacement for Dalvik called ART - Android Run Time - and the source code is available.

> good luck finding apps that'll run on it.

What are you saying ? That CyanogenMod can't run Android apps ?

Richard Plinston

Re: Not perfect

> after a year or so, a vendor will abandon a device and leave it without anymore OS updates.

The device still works as well as it did when you bought it, possibly better. (granted it may need a replacement battery).

You don't complain that your car's engine hasn't been updated recently do you ?

Richard Plinston

Re: Virus Attractor...

> heck even uses a large number of 20 year old Microsoft patented software designs,

The 'designs' are vfat long name construction which are easily avoided _unless_ the device wants to plug in SD cards from other devices, such as cameras, which use fat32, or connect to a Windows computer over USB and act as a thumbdrive.

This is why Nexus 5 does not have a SD card slot, uses a transfer protocol over USB and can't mount a FAT SD card on its OTG port - it doesn't use 30 year old Microsoft designs. Microsoft still does.

Google's Nexus 5: Best smartphone bang for your buck. There, we said it

Richard Plinston

Re: "90% of what's needed"

> I wonder what it does that, for example, a £120 Lumia 620 won't do,

Make a profit for its manufacturer.

Microsoft founder Paul Allen's money man wants Redmond to break up

Richard Plinston

Re: Oh dear

> Actually, no. NetBSD was first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Linux

"""Linux was the first operating system kernel to run the x86-64 architecture in long mode, starting with the 2.4 version in 2001 (prior to the physical hardware's availability)"""

While NetBSD was working on x86-64 since 2001 it didn't run until after Linux.

Richard Plinston

Re: Oh dear

> Sure, but if the CPU and the hardware around costs 10k+, how many could afford it?

Why do you pick 10k+. Atari and Amigas, 68000 based, were perfectly capable of running Linux, and do so, and were priced much less than an IBM PC or clone of the time.

There is nothing about an IBM PC clone that suddenly makes it cheaper than other non-IBM PC machines of the day. It wasn't like the components were cheaper if you mentioned IBM or Bill Gates name.

Richard Plinston

Re: Oh dear

> Most CP/M machines, and Apples ones, were too expensive for home use.

Untrue. The Apple II was a home computer. CP/M machines were no more expensive, and usually cheaper, than MS-DOS ones when these came available.

> "Interoperability" was at source code level, not binary level.

Completely untrue. Any CP/M machine could run any CP/M binary executables. They were configurable for the screen controls, but then so were many MS-DOS programs*.

> While all DOS/Windows machines could run the same executables, and board and peripherals were (and are) compatible among different models and brands thanks to the use of common standards.

Complete nonsense. In the early days there were many computers running MS-DOS that were _not_ IBM-PCs. HP, Wang, DEC, Apricot, SCP all built machines that were _completely_ different and either used S100 or proprietry bus for their boards. Later, many moved to IBM compatibility with ISA bus, then there was the PS/2 with incompatible MicroChannel, EISA, PCI, PCI Express.

You won't push an ISA board into a PCI slot.

> If MS had not licensed DOS to clone manufacturers, there would have never been the low-cost PC clones

No, there would have _continued_ to be low cost CP/M, CP/M-86, and Concurrent-CP/M machines - around the same price as IBM-PC clones.

> Without PCs, Intel would have not maybe become the powerhouse it is now.

I don't know why you tie Intel to DOS, before there was DOS Intel had the CP/M and CP/M-86 market and several others. There may have also been Motorola, Zilog and others but they were all equally capable of making high-volume low-cost CPUs and systems.

> DOS extenders made DOS applications run in protected mode on 286 and 386, and access more then 640k.

No, you are completely wrong yet again. DOS extenders could switch the machine between real mode and extended mode on order to swap RAM pages between real memory and extended memory, but DOS applications, nor DOS itself*, _NEVER_ ran in anything but real mode and could never directly access anything above 1Mbyte address space. If they wanted to access data not currently in that address space they asked the EMS manager to fetch it to where they could access it.

Also the 640Kb limit was not a DOS limit but was a restriction on the IBM-PCs. Other machines running MS-DOS could access the full 1Mbyte of the 8086 model.

> Smartphones and other mobile devices used them - including Windows CE - well before both.

And home computers (Acorn Archimedes) and millions of other embedded devices well before those.

* For example Turbo-Pascal was available for CP/M, CP/M-86, MS-DOS and PC-DOS. The MS-DOS version could be configured for serial terminal screens (or ANSI if you had a display adaptor card and monitor).

* Actually there was an 80286 MS-DOS: version 4.0 and 4.1 (not to be confused with the much later 4.01) were based on 3.1 and 3.2 respectively. It was used by Wang, Siemanns and ICL (where I worked with it) and was known as 'European DOS'. It was intended to run protected mode programs and provided some multitasking with background tasks. It was dumped when OS/2 was started.