2428 posts • joined 27 Apr 2009
Re: Or the fourth option...
> _Abuse of monopoly_, not just monopoly. When the store owner makes it mandatory to have an account in the store in order to get security patches for your phone and bricks your phone if you try to use other shops, it's obviously abuse.
I get it. You hate Google with a passion and probably love Microsoft (is that you TheVogon?) and resent Windows Phone being a complete failure.
But there is no need to just make stuff up: "bricks your phone if you try to use other shops". Bullshit!! Using F-Droid does not brick your Android.
> Reality is that it isn't only shop, it's only the only _Google approved_ shop, just because they own it.
Why would they approve a shop that they don't control and therefore have no information about ?
Re: Google is far better than apple
> Google was able to say "If you make a phone with that, we won't let you build anything else".
You are correct that if a company signs up for play services then they can't do ASOP. They could, however, build anything else they want to, such as Windows Phones, or Tizen.
Compare that with HP where MS used 'loyalty discounts' to kill WebOS, or Dell where they dropped Android in similar circumstances.
> Google's search monopoly abuse created a monoculture (well OK duoculture if that's a word) in the mobile phone OS market.
It was Microsoft that killed WebOS, Symbian, Asha, Maemo/Meego, Melemi, Kin, WM6.x, Nokia-X and ultimately WP8 and W10M.
Microsoft pushing WP into 'Microsoft only' corporates probably helped kill Blackberry too.
Google is big in search because it gives the best results. I have no idea why you think that people buy Androids because Google has the best search engine. Any phone can use Google search, or any other search - they can do it in their browser.
No. They buy Androids because Microsoft killed off everything else except ones they can't afford.
Who destroyed the competition ?
> Android has destroyed all OS competition in mobile, except for Apple - because nobody else could charge for a mobile OS.
Microsoft killed WebOS by waving WoA (Windows on ARM - RT) and 'loyalty discounts' at HP (you wouldn't want to have to pay retail to put Windows on the boxes you sell).
Microsoft killed Symbian, Meltemi, Maemo/Meego, Asha by the contract it had with Nokia via Elop.
Microsoft killed Windows Mobile 6.x with a completely different 100% incompatible Windows Phone 7.
Microsoft killed Kin.
Microsoft killed Nokia-X/Microsoft-X (Android using MS and Nokia services) by just closing it down because it was outselling Lumia.
Microsoft killed Windows Phone and Windows 10 Mobile by incompetence.
Microsoft then complained that Android was a monopoly.
Re: Rosetta-a-like is absolutely necessary
> Here's the breaking news: all three of them already run on AArch64 (ARM64).
The RT version of Office was severely limited in some features.
Re: You're ignoring Windows
> Microsoft is supposedly supporting ARM Windows that does its own translation from x64 to ARM64,
No, Microsoft is not doing 'x64' (x86-AMD64) to ARM64. It is doing x86-32 to ARM64.
Re: 300 baud!? You were lucky...
> cueing up
Was that billiards or snooker ?
> that adds up to, er, quite a lot of wasted bandwidth.
It is only wasted if you _don't_ use it.
Re: Microsoft Android ®
> we know that one of the patents is for the FAT filesystem.
It is not for the actual FAT filesystem, that expired decades ago. It was for a feature of VFAT that has long file names and the way that these are held and a short file name is generated.
Re: 3 Words
> these weapons WILL be used, and probably in the Middle East - sparking more wars,
Trump has to come up with some reason to cancel the upcoming mid-term elections. A Middle East war, or Korean, will do that.
Re: Surprised they don't make their own Android phones
> Some people claim that Nokia X was a way of forcing Microsoft into buying the company's phone business.
It was a way of Nokia surviving if Microsoft didn't buy the division. The agreement where MS paid Nokia a $million a year for only make Windows Phones was about to expire. In spite of that subsidy the division was still making a loss because they had to sell the phones below cost in order for them to be bought. This was because MS only catered for a limited set of SOCs that were well below leading edge.
Re: 3 Words
> indication of how insistent they are in engaging in this theft.
You should try learning English. 'Theft' is "removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it".
Re: Microsoft Android ®
> make it very difficult to be able to use SD cards to exchange data with non-Linux computers.
The main issues are that cameras generally use FAT for their SD cards and that Microsoft makes it difficult for Windows to use anything else.
Re: Surprised they don't make their own Android phones
They already did make an Android phone with MS and Nokia services.
A couple of months before Microsoft bought Nokia phone division Nokia released a couple of phones with the Nokia X platform based on Android Jelly Bean. After the purchase Microsoft continued building them as 'Microsoft X', but soon killed them because they may have overtaken the sales of Lumia.
Re: No, I will not switch out the lights.
> Technically speaking, Windows 10 Mobile is not the same as Windows Phone.
That is part of the problem. WM6.x -> WP7 was a complete rewrite in a completely different development toolchain. WP7 -> WP8 was maybe just review and recomp, or maybe change away from yet another dead end. WP9 -> WM10 was another rewrite to UWP.
> more developers might make the effort to put out apps that support both mobile and desktop
Developers do not want one app for both mobile and desktop. They want a cheap mobile app that is simple to use _and_ a more expensive desktop application for better revenue.
Mobile users won't pay desktop prices for an app, developers don't want users to get desktop software at mobile app prices.
Re: Fully paid up member of the Elop Conspiracy Theory Crew here...
> I had not a single moments doubt that Elops cunning plan from the get go was to sell Nokia to MS.
His contract gave him $25million if MS bought Nokia phone division. That was his only plan.
Re: It wasn't just apps
> Charles Petzold, the author of what was the "Bible" ... examples from the Windows 1 SDK that can still be built and run on the most modern versions of Windows
While it may well be true that _some_ of the examples could be recompiled on whatever was the 'most modern' at the time he said that, it is also true that programs compiled for Windows 1 or 2 would not run under Windows 95 or later.
> I don't think there is no any UI toolkit still in widespread use that could boast this.
X-Windows comes to mind as one that probably could do this, and that was before MS Windows 1. Also it wouldn't surprise me to find that some early Macintosh, also before Windows 1, example code could still be compiled and run.
But, does anyone still program down to the raw SDK level ? I would have thought that most programming is done on much higher level frameworks.
> IMO, Nokia killed Symbian, Meego/ Maemo et al. through managerial cowardice and a "fight it out amongst yourselves" mentality. Microsoft only turned up and delivered the mercy blow.
Certainly Nokia, as the top phone maker in the world, had many development projects that competed with each other. This is how product development works, but they could have been more efficient. It was Elop, Microsoft's wooden horse, that delivered 'the blow' with his burning platforms memo. He killed Symbian production even when there were outstanding orders. He killed the N9, and N9x0, even though it was outselling Lumix in the countries that were allowed to have it.
Microsoft did 'turn up' to buy the division because they were switching to Android (Nokia-X) and then 'delivered the mercy blow' to Windows Phone/Windows 10 Mobile by closing it all down.
Re: "such as word processing and browsers"
> You mean like browsers in iOS and Chromebooks? Here again, MS came last, others paved the way to full lock-in.
"""Safari is the default browser pre-installed on every new iOS device, but there are plenty of alternatives, ranging from Google Chrome and Opera's various mobile offerings to Dolphin, Atomic and Ghostery."""
"""Firefox on Chrome OS. Opera Mini on Chrome OS. Dolphin Browser running on Chrome OS. Ghostery running on Chrome OS."""
Windows Phone: """first launched in October 2010 with Windows Phone 7"""
ChromeOS: """Initial release June 15, 2011"""
I am not sure why you think that "MS came last", nor that "others paved the way", but then this is the world of 'alternate facts'.
Re: It wasn't just apps
> I thought the orphan devices had a lot to do with it - i.e. Windows Mobile 6.x devices couldn't run Windows Phone 7.0. OK, as expected. Windows Phone 7.x devices couldn't run Windows Phone 8.0. WTF? And then again for many (but not all) Windows Phone 8.x devices with Windows Phone 10.0!
It wasn't just the devices that were deadended, it was the apps and the whole development toolchain that was dumped and reset. WM6.x was a complete dead end, nothing could be ported to WP7*. At least there was a conversion that could be done to some WP7 apps so they could be loaded into WP8 - when they didn't fail due to incompatibilities. WM10 then moved to UWP but developers had lost interest in rewriting everything yet again.
* WM6.x devices outsold WP7 for many months after WP7 release due to businesses needing new phones that ran their existing in-house developed apps that couldn't be ported to anything else and needed completely starting from scratch again.
> If only it was a flagship ... Maybe a current HMD device, only made by "real Nokia*", and to Nokia quality ...
You are thinking of much later Nokia Androids.
Nokia X was not by HMD and was not Chinese made. It was produced in Nokia factories and was very similar to Lumix models - except the OS. It was available in Feb 2014 and Microsoft kept producing them for some months after they bought the factories, calling them Microsoft X.
The HMD devices were much later.
Re: "trying to cram the Windows desktop onto a tiny mobile screen"
> later it tried to expand the tile UI designed for small mobile screens to large desktop ones, showing they have real issues in understanding users needs,
Microsoft hired consults to tell them why Windows Phone was not doing well in the market*. For a very large sum of money they told MS that the problem was that desktop users were unfamiliar with the UI. The solution was to force that UI down the users' throats until they loved it and _demanded_ it on their phones.
* various analysts had claimed WP would overtake iPhone by 2010 or somesuch.
> and claim that markets always tend to converge on two dominant players anyway,
It was Microsoft that killed off Symbian, Maemo/Meego, Asha, Meltemi, Nokia-X (Android, later Microsoft-X) by contracts with Nokia. It was Microsoft that killed off WebOS (by waving 'Loyalty Discounts' at HP*). It was Microsoft that killed Windows Mobile 6.x, Windows Phone 7 and Windows Phone 8 (by incompetence in making the next range incompatible). Granted WM10 died a natural death because, by then, no one wanted it.
So the convergence to two players was the 'natural outcome' of Microsoft stamping on anything that it could that looked like competition to its products, and then being incompetent with its own.
* HP did not want to pay retail price for all MS products so it was cheaper to drop WebOS.
Re: It wasn't just apps
>> Windows Phone 7.x devices couldn't run Windows Phone 8.0. WTF?
> IIRC, the argument was Secure Boot or something.
WP7 devices were strictly single core SoCs. WP7 was based on 'CE' and couldn't cope with more than one. In fact the advertising had 'why would you need dual core' implying that others were inefficient.
WP8 _required_ dual core and all the SoCs that it would run on were specific dual core parts.
Microsoft only built versions of WP7 and WP8 to work with a specific list of SoCs and there was no overlap. The makers could not rebuild for a SoC not on the list. In fact originally each maker was directed to use a specific source.
> A certain HTC HD2 disagrees. Not only it ran WP7, it also ran WP8, Windows 10 Mobile, Windows RT, and Android
It seems that the HD2 (a Windows Mobile 6.x phone) was used by MS to develop WP7 as both WM6.x and WP7 were based on CE. This allowed developers (not HTC) to hack WP7 to run but is was unsupported.
"""In December 2012, Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 were ported onto the device as a proof-of-concept; no working builds exist."""
While the WM10 upgrade list does have an "HD 2" it is not the 'HTC HD2', it is the 'Blu Win HD 2'.
Android (ASOP) is, of course, available to be built for any device.
Re: "your App Store lacks very very popular apps (YouTube, Snapchat)"
> The YouTube app was there. Just Google complained it violated its policies... I would have seen what had happened with roles inverted...
Of course it violated the Google terms of trade, it was Microsoft that wrote it.
The roles were inverted when software that competed with Microsoft products were not allowed into the MS store, such as word processing and browsers. OTOH MS Office for Android, and much else from Microsoft is in the Google Play Store.
Re: use of 'goto'
> It's a necessary techinque in a deficient language.
The problem with goto isn't the goto itself, that is perfectly clear what happens.
The problem is that goto requires a label as its target. When you are analysing code and you find a label then the flow of control can now be arbitrary. Control can pop into existence at the label from almost anywhere and it will take a comprehensive search and examination in order to find all the points that may launch to that label.
At least with C the label can only be accessed from within the current procedure unless particularly nasty coding is used.
> On Windows, you are effectively stuck with LO, which really is not an improvement except in price.
Let Google be your friend:
"""The best free office software 2018
LibreOffice. Everything you could want from an office suite, fully compatible with Microsoft formats and totally free to use – even commercially. ...
Google Docs, Sheets and Slides. ...
Microsoft Office Online. ...
WPS Office Free. ...
Polaris Office. ...
SoftMaker FreeOffice. ...
Re: The market for 25 hour battery life is very limited
> It may sometimes be 3-5 days between charges in some areas.
Do those areas have LTE available (or public WiFi) for the 'Always Connected' that this device is intended for ?
Can you not recharge from your car or RV or are these areas so deep in the woods that they can't be reached by roads?
Re: okay lets run the numbers
> WinNT was originally designed for alpha.
No. Alpha was one of the later ports and it ran in a non-preferred mode (little endian) of that CPU. NT was originally to be developed for Intel 860. This failed so it was moved to MIPS workstations. It was later ported to x86, Itanium, POWER, and Alpha. It was only kept on Alpha after DEC sued Microsoft for using DEC designs of a VMS replacement, the settlement included many $millions (alleged $100million) paid to DEC, keeping the Alpha port and joint promotion.
"""Microsoft initially developed what was to become Windows NT on internally designed i860XR-based workstations (codenamed Dazzle), only porting NT to the MIPS (Microsoft Jazz), Intel 80386 and other processors later. Some claim the NT designation was a reference to the "N-Ten" codename of the i860XR."""
Re: Wipe Windows...
> But Linux is an operating system that has difficulty finding acceptance when it is given away free.
That must be why Linux is only found in several billion devices including the majority of servers, 80% of phones and >99% of Supercomputers.
> Shilling for Linux in Windows discussions ...
Actually it is about a device, the Lenovo Yoga C630 laptop. It is perfectly reasonable to ask if it can run other operating systems, such as Linux or RISCOS, though it is rather pointless because these operating systems do not need 32bit x86 emulation as most software is already available in native ARM. It is only Windows that most software is stuck on Intel/AMD, and much of that is now 64bit only so won't run on this device.
> Maybe the Linux guys paid people to run it they could get some traction in the mainstream market place? Just a suggestion.
Paid shilling? No, that is a Windows thing.
Re: How much?
> Apparently Windows 10 S has an app in their store which flicks the switch and changes it to normal Windows 10 and it's a free download.
That is apparently true for the Intel version of Windows 10S. That has no bearing on whether the ARM 10S has the same facility.
The Snapdragon 850 only has emulation for x86 and _not_ x86-64. As most software over the last decade has moved to 64bit then your favourite programs may not be available on this machine.
In fact the lack of 'normal' Win10 may be deliberate so that Microsoft can ensure that only software that will run under this emulation will be available. Otherwise there may be too many returns because the user tried loading software that could not run.
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
> Yes, we need an image processing ... program for the uninitiated.
I mainly do simple photo processing: straightening, cropping, sharpening, colour adjusting, resizing, ... I find that Digikam does it all quickly, simply and easily. If I need to do pixel stuff then I do it in GIMP.
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
> a knockoff of Microsoft Visio
Actually it was a knockoff of Shapeware's Visio. Microsoft bought it later.
Re: rotating on it's axis
> that requires that it's rotation period match ours...
No. Rethink that one.
Re: Backward compatibility ???? In *all* platforms.
> could still run 30 year old code on their latest boxen.
> Certainly up to XP, MS made a similar boast with Windows.
Windows 95 could not run Windows 2 programs. At the time I had to run Windows 3.11 on a multiuser system to keep running a useful propriety program.
That was only 5 years from end of Windows 2 to 95.
Re: Why would you buy a phone from Microsoft ever again?
> I've actually lost count of the number of mobile phone platforms they've ungracefully killed with no upgrade path.
They not only killed their own platforms with no upgrade path to the next (or little), but they also killed off Danger's Kin and several others by their contracts with Nokia: Symbian, Maermo/Meego, Asha, Meltemi, and Nokia-X (Android).
The duopoly of Apple and Google is left because of Microsoft, nor in spite of them.
Re: Linux actually is much more than what you'd need on such a device
> From a users point of view there is not even a filesystem left,
Not true. just run one of the many file managers, such as 'Total Commander'.
> users are expected to "sync" their devices to cloud services,
They can if they wish, or they can connect to almost any desktop or laptop computer and backup to that.
Have you actually used one of these devices or are you just using 'alternate facts' ?
Re: Old Linux ?
> Oh yes, a 386sx33 with a math co-processor & a then massive 4GB IDE drive. I had slackware running on it
I did run Freesco Linux (cf Cisco) as a network hub and server*. No HD, booted off a 1.44 FD on a 386x20 with 16Mb RAM.
* it allowed the 56Kb modem and the printer to be shared, ran NTP and a small web server plus some other stuff.
Re: New El Reg UoM?
> A punch card can hold about 80 characters or 10 bytes.
A punch card can hold 80 bytes. 'characters' is not 'bits'.
Some punch cards were smaller and 132 column, such as on System 3.
I could hold the operating system on punch cards for an ICL 1901 in one hand. It was about 3inch stack.
Re: And the mess that is Android updating
> FWIW, Mel Brooks, who's Jewish, seemed to think that making fun of Nazis was one way to de-fang their evil ideology.
You may be interested in Randy Rainbow who is making fun of another 'evil ideology'.
Re: Agreed, there are enough platforms
> Sure, you can use AOSP, but without a competitive substitute for Google Play Services (including such things as Maps, for which Google actually shelled out actual labor to collect), it's going to be a hard sell.
Nokia went down that route, which is allegedly one of the reasons Microsoft bought the company. The Nokia-X (later sold as Microsoft-X) was Android with Microsoft and Nokia services. This was done by Nokia partly because the Microsoft payment to Nokia of one billion per year was ending and partly because Windows Phone 8 was locked into older SOCs that were no longer competitive (as WP7 was before). Going to Android allowed more modern components to be used giving a better range of performance and pricing for Nokia.
Of course Microsoft killed the product after a few months because it was too popular (it was outselling WP), just as they had killed Symbian, Maemo/Meego, Meltemi, and Asha. They then killed Windows Phone leaving the virtual duopoly that we have today.
So, it is primarily Microsoft that caused the problem that they complained about to the EU.
Re: 'Perhaps MS can assume this role, if they can be trusted with it'
> Windows V3 throw odd errors if you installed it on Digital Research DR-DOS
Search for "AARD code"
You're indestructible, always believe in 'cause you are Go! Microsoft reinvents netbook with US$399 ‘Surface Go’
Re: US$399 “Surface Go” has a ten-inch screen
> Other way around, as Microsoft's product was first by a good few years.
Surface was first released October 2012.
""" Release date Surface: October 26, 2012"
Here's a keyboard/ cover for iPad from 2010:
Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard Cover was released early 2012 (before surface released):
Here is a review of several keyboards and keyboard/covers from mid 2012 (before surface released), some of which cater for portrait mode too. It is about choice.
Re: Obvious questions that will be asked
> Microsoft really doesn't care if you buy one and put Linux on it; you still gave them money in the process.
The whole point of Win10S (which this device has) it that _all_ software purchases will be through the MS store. MS want to make 30% (or so) of all software revenue. They will not get this if Linux is installed. They also won't get the slurp which they want to monetize.
Re: They're clearly copying Apple.
> the ability to run an enormous catalogue of existing Win32 line-of-business applications;
Not when it comes with Win10S. 'Upgrade' to Win10Pro or so may be available but may cost more.
> What is the iPad Pro with its clip-on keyboard and pen(cil) if not a response to market acceptance of the 2-in-1 concept that Microsoft launched with Surface?
Clip-on keyboard/covers were available for iPad for years before Surface 'invented' them. It just happens that they weren't Apple branded but were Logitech or others. Apple seemed happy to let other companies have some revenue too.
> They sure managed to blow Caldera out of the water
Caldera renamed itself 'The SCO Group' (TSG) when it bought the business of collecting Novell's revenues from SCO. They then tried to give _everyone_ "the fits".
Re: Interesting times
> this (development on machines running Windows NT on MIPS) was a conscious decision by them to ensure that NT was portable and platform neutral, and not locked into x86 code.
Originally Cutler started to use the Intel i860XR workstations but this failed. In 1988, when development started, the best x86 was the 80386 at 25MHz*. This was completely inadequate so they moved to MIPS workstations.
* 33MHz in 1989.
Re: Interesting times
>> "After all, OS/2 did TCP/IP long before Windows had a stable IP stack supported by the manufacturer ..."
> For OS/2 2.11, and also later on with Warp 3, I had to get a separate TCP/IP product,
Yes, it was a separate product, but that does not contradict the person you are replying to. It was available and supported by the manufacturer of the OS.
"""The Extended Edition of 1.2 introduced TCP/IP and Ethernet support."""
OS/2 1.2 was released in 1989 - 4 years before NT.
> "Sentator, remember that campaign contribution? Here is the list of very specific items we would like on the tariff schedule."
"""Hilton pointed out on his show, "The Next Revolution," that Ross (Wilbur Ross, Commerce Secretary) co-founded a shipping firm, Nautical Bulk Holdings, that ships steel from South Korea, which is one of the countries that has received an exemption from President Trump’s steel tariffs."""
It is all about corruption. Trump is merely the most corrupt.
Re: wireless cables?
>> "individually shielded optical wireless cables"
> Could you fit any more oxymorons into a single phrase?
Optical cables do not use wire, they use glass fibres, therefore 'wireless'.
Of course optical cable could also have [metal] wires included, for example: to carry power*, but they wouldn't be 'wireless'.
* a wire could be added simply to defeat the tariff.