back to article Microsoft lands big handbag on Google's copy kisser

Microsoft's swung its biggest handbag yet in denying that Bing copies Google results, while adding that Bing has the internet's number-one search engine wetting its algorithms. On Thursday, online services division senior vice president Yusuf Mehdi issued Microsoft's second executive denial to date of Google’s claim that Bing …

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  1. supervan
    FAIL

    Strange comparison

    "And let's be perfectly clear: the copying's not going one way. It's churlish of Google to play the foul card when last summer it blatantly refreshed its signature minimalist search page by giving people the option for some delicious Bing-like photo images as their search wallpaper."

    Strange comparison. The Reg seems to think that somehow Google copying the image background feature from Bing is the same as Bing stealing Google’s search results. MMM now let’s think about that; Would the Reg mind if someone copied their articles and published it as their own,?

  2. Bilgepipe
    Gates Horns

    Hahah

    So Google did all this because they are FRIGHTENED of Bing?

    Oh man, that's funny.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      why else

      why else would Google go to all this effort unless one of their algorithms has predicted that they need to derail Bing or suffer loss of revenue...

      given that this has also deflected questions about their index being full of spam the timing just seems, well, odd

  3. Paul Boocock (UK)
    Thumb Up

    Bing Relevance

    I must admit, that whilst I haven't been a big fan of Bing in the past, I have noticed that results are a lot more relevant recently. Good job since I'm almost forced to used Bing on Windows Phone 7.

    Google is still my homepage for now however.

    1. Bilgepipe

      Obviously

      If they're robbing Googles results then of course Bing is getting better. Duh.

  4. ryanmscott

    Google

    I tried Bing a while back and it gave me such insignificant results that I went straight back to google, that first experience where it didn't give much has kept me away.

  5. Queos lvl42 mage
    Happy

    El Reg's Thought Provoking Imagery......

    ...is cracking me up.

    Reminds me of Mel Brooks' 'Blazing Saddles' studio mob fight.

    "You Brute, You Brute, You Vicious Brute!" /cries......

    Bwaaahahahahaha! Rock On Reg!

    ;)

  6. Charles Manning

    wetting?

    As in Google is pissing on Bing?

  7. Natalie Gritpants
    WTF?

    You know you're delaing with a really cross idiot

    When they end a sentence with ". Period. Full stop." unless that's Microsoft's dodgy internationalization software at work.

    1. MarkKB

      Er, what?

      Stating the words "period" or "full stop" after a sentance is, in English, a pretty universal way of emphasising that the preceding sentence is uncomprimisingly true, without additions or justifications. Using both implies that this is doubily so. "Cross" (or "idiot", for that matter) doesn't come into it.

      (And I wouldn't blame him. The honour of his company's search engine and the engineers he had under him had just been misleadingly questioned by their largest competitor. I certainly would be, at least, annoyed.)

      1. Bilgepipe
        WTF?

        Misleadingly?

        Misleadingly? This guys smoke and mirrors don't change the fact that Microsoft has been caught blatantly copying search results from Google. Nothing misleading about it.

      2. Magnus_Pym
        FAIL

        No it isn't

        Period is a mainly American term for the single dot on the line punctuation mark, a 'full point' to a typesetter. We usually call it a 'full stop' over here. Just saying 'Period' would indicate that the sentence has ended and there are no clauses. It's common but a bit silly and makes the speaker sound a bit petulant. Saying 'Period full stop' would indicate two full points at the end of a sentence. It doesn't mean anything, it's still a bit silly, doubly petulant and just wrong..

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The best denial ever

      "You know you're delaing with a really cross idiot. When they end a sentence with". Period. Full stop."" Nah, it's just the best denial ever.

      - I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms Lewinski. Period. Full stop.

      - There are no US tanks in Baghdad!. Period. Full stop.

  8. Paul Shirley

    Microsoft name change

    So, a stolen search result is OK if it's renamed 'a signal'?

    Presumably then I'll be OK selling copies of Win7 as long as I rename them Winblows7?

    Changing the name doesn't stop it being theft.

  9. BorkedAgain
    Joke

    "...steady, quiet progress on core search relevance..."

    Give 'em their due, that's true at least. Why, there's a minimum 15% chance that something relevant might turn up in the first page of results on a Bing search these days. That's progress...

  10. JaitcH

    Who cares how many MS pooh-bars deny Google's claim

    The facts are simple. Google caught Bing copying.

    So what? Bing is still an inferior product - and an attempt to shore up MS revenue which is none too healthy compared with it's history or other competitors.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      We didn't copy Google

      but we use lots of techniques that we can't tell you about....

      Basically they did copy Google then... As as Google rightly point out, why use Bing and get a out of date copy of Google's results, when you can just use Google.....

      Usual Microsoft, copying and stealing the best ideas and then doing a piss-poor job of implementing them.

  11. Q We
    Stop

    Copying

    > thanks for the iPhone idea, Steve.

    quick fact check: Google acquires Android in 2005, iPhone debutes in 2007 - a clear case of plagiarism by Google.

    and wallpaper is such a brilliant idea, who could've thought of it! google stole it - oh, the horror! compared to that, piggybacking on competitor's results and ranking is positively innocent.

    ...rrright... um.... yeah.

    1. Ian Davies
      FAIL

      Copying?

      Quick fact check: every Android phone prototype that Google had shown up until 2007 was a Blackberry clone.

      Apple then introduces the iPhone and, following a collective corporate emptying of Google's bowels, hey presto! every Android prototype shown after that looks curiously like an iPhone.

      A clear case of plagiarism by Google.

      Oh, hey! you were right, I just thought you were being sarcastic, sorry.

    2. Tim Bates

      And smart phones were around well before too

      I got my Nokia 9210 way back in about 2002. And it was 2nd hand then too. And the 9110 predated it by a few years too.

      Sure, they're not the "wonderful, magical" devices that Android and iOS give us, but they were certainly stepping stones in the path that go us to the online app-store based phones we use today.

  12. MarkKB
    Thumb Down

    Incorrect - Bing's defense is "clickstream data", not "lots of signals"

    You seem to think that Bing's defense is they copied Google, but they only use it as one of a thousand signals, and while it's easy to get this impression, the key words in Microsoft's statement are "clickstream data".

    (They should have elaborated on what that means in the post, yes, but that doesn't make it any less relevent.)

    If you have the Bing toolbar installed, any website you visit will be monitored for clicks. So, fot example, if most people who visit a travel website click on the "asia" section, Bing can display the "Asia" link under the travel website's main address.

    Whenever you do a search - on Wikipedia, on Amazon, and yes, in the major search engines, the Bing toolbar, again, monitors what you click, but also sends the search term. This means if the majority of users click the third link in Google's search results, that link will increase in rank on Bing - not any of the others.

    It's completely legitimate, and if Google isn't doing it with Chrome or their toolbar - and I highly doubt they aren't - they should be.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      re: It's completely legitimate

      So Google puts up the results, Bing only copies some of them, and that means they're not stealing Google's work at all, oh no, not those nice Bing people - they have some of the best minds in the world, you know.

  13. Inachu
    Grenade

    Bing still sucks

    Last time I tried bing to download a KB fix it took me to a article that tlaked all about that KB number in every technical detail you could think of but was there a link for a direct download of that KB patch they were discussing on that page?!?!?

    NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    No link on that page for a download to patch my system and it has been like that ever since bing was invented.

    1. Tim Bates

      Or my personal favourite...

      MS have a habit of removing KB articles, or relocating them. They then fail to update links on their own websites that used to point to these now 404 pages. But it's OK, because Bing is now the MS 404 page, complete with already having done a search for you - "No results found".

      I've had this so many times it's not funny - yet Google can find the new location of these missing KB articles without any problems. Seems MS aren't even stealing the results properly!

    2. Michael Thibault
      Gates Horns

      Bing is the spawn of all those minds

      that have obvious difficulties with reference (which difficulty seems to be a job requirement at Microsoft). All bings considered, this makes me nervous.

      Hunt down an MS Fixit locally and turn it every which way you can to determine in how many places you can find, locally and in human-comprehensible form(s), just what the fcuk that particular Fixit actually does.

      Install the Fixit (once you're certain it won't wreak havoc, or undo havoc wisely-wreaked) and, once the install is practically done, entertain yourself clicking on the various buttons in the pre-Close window of the Fixit. Someday, somehow, someone somewhere will find "this information" to be meaningful, too.

  14. ArmanX
    FAIL

    Bing loses this one either way...

    On the one hand, they are stealing search results. They read the search from Google (via the Bing toolbar), and rank their own results accordingly. Bottom line: they're stealing search results, using Google's page rank system as part of their own.

    On the other hand, maybe they aren't stealing search results; I'm not sure how you could link a given word to a webpage without scraping parts of the page (or link) first, but assuming it works on pages other than Google, it wouldn't take long for anyone to set up a basic click-the-link script for IE, and tada! Any word you want starts topping the Bing search results page, pointing to wherever you want it to. Bottom line: the Bing toolbar makes it easy to point any text to any link, thereby making "click fraud," as they call it, within the grasp of anyone.

    So, which is it? Are they stealing, or are they incompetent? Granted, I'd put my money on both...

    1. RJ

      Very good point

      How do microsoft et al who do this know that the data is legit and coming from their toolbar rather than Mr. hax0rs botnet sending bad data from zombie PCs in an attempt to improve linking.

      I can only assume that they cannot and have to use a server side algorithm to judge if the incoming data is kosher or not.

    2. MarkKB

      Not sure what you mean

      "They read the search from Google (via the Bing toolbar), and rank their own results accordingly. Bottom line: they're stealing search results, using Google's page rank system as part of their own.

      As I said above, all they are doing is registering the links people *click on*.If everyone clicks the third result in Google, that's what gets upranked.

      "I'm not sure how you could link a given word to a webpage without scraping parts of the page (or link) first, "

      It's actually pretty simple. When you you visit a page, the Bing toolbar queries IE for the address to that site. If it detects it's a search (like Amazon search, Wikipedia search, and yes, Google and Yahoo!), it also notes the search terms by pharsing the URL (and fills the search box on the Bing bar with said search terms.)

      When you click on a link, that address replaces the previous one in IE's address bar. The Bing bar then gets *that* address (and sometimes the page title) from IE, and sends it along with the rest of the information it collected. The indexer then determines that people searching for that search term or on this page found this link relevent (since they clicked on it). User clicks, nothing more.

      This is opt-in, and (as I recall) can be turned off without affecting the user-facing funtionality of the Bing bar.

      As you can infer, Google's ranking is irrelevent except as far as it's relevancy to the user. As I said above, if everyone using the bar clicked an option other than the first, it would rank higheron Bing.

      "but assuming it works on pages other than Google, it wouldn't take long for anyone to set up a basic click-the-link script for IE, and tada! "

      The trouble is fourfold:

      1) As Bing says, this data is a small part of the total data that makes up ranking. I'd surmise that top link for "torsorophy" got high enough (because of the share volume of people clicking on it) to get noticed by people searching through the pages, and from there went up naturally (that is, clicked on by people without Bing's toolbar as well as with.). For it to work, spammers would have to have thousands of individuals clicking their links - no easy feat - and then hope that it doesn't get buried because most people don't find it legit enough to click on it from Bing itself (with or sans toolbar).

      2) Why couldn't they just set up a script that clicks on links from Bing itself, if it was so well influenced? The Bing indexer (MSNBot or whatever it's called) probably has algorithms that scan pages and try to determine the probability of them being legitimate or not (lots of internal links with random keywords, nonsense paragraphs, lots of random words after each other, lots of adsense stuff, ect.)

      3) The Bing bar also sends a unique session identifyer that (as far as I can surmise) expires when you close your browser (and, of course, your IP information). If lots of clicks were coming from the same computers all at once, and/or continuously, they could surmise that it's a spam attack and ignore them. It also likely brings into account things like if clicks from hundreds of computers were either on a schedule or only occuring once, and if they all occurred within seconds of each other (such as in a distributed bot attack).

      4) The fact that the Bing bar collects clicks has been known about since at least 2009 (when Microsoft briefed analysts about it), and I believe is also part of their privacy policy (if not explicitly, then implicitly.) I would think that most of the dedicated spammers already know this, however Bing search results seem* uncomprimised.

      *Seem, of course, meaning "I haven't noticed anything".

      A lot of this "what does Microsoft do about the spammers" is specluation, sure, but it seems like the logical thing. Your concerns would probably apply whether or not they used Bing bar telemetry, but , whatever they're doing to account for that, Bing seems to be holding up mostly fine on that regard.

      And of course, one thing is clear - Bing doesn't copy Google's results - they use user clicks as part of the ranking system, and whether the links are in a certain order or not matters little - it's about what the user finds relevent, and the first link might not be it.

      Obviously, I'm of the opinion that this is a legitimate technique, and I think Google should be doing it too, if not already.

      1. ArmanX
        Alert

        Re: Not sure what you mean

        This statement is, I believe, at the crux of it all:

        "When you you visit a page, the Bing toolbar queries IE for the address to that site. If it detects it's a search (like Amazon search, Wikipedia search, and yes, Google and Yahoo!), it also notes the search terms by pharsing the URL (and fills the search box on the Bing bar with said search terms.)"

        Detecting a search, pulling the search words out of it, and then associating those search words with a given URL is stealing search data. I don't care if they are stealing it from Google, Yahoo!, Amazon, or eBay; if Bing ranks a result highly based on nothing other than search results from a competitor, they are stealing search results.

    3. MarkKB

      Oh, one more thing...

      Here's a post (not mine) detailing the telemetry data sent by both Suggested Sites and the Bing Toolbar, to back up my statements on what data they send. (I'm sure Google had the technical chops to do this, so it boggles the mind, if they didn't, why they didn't.)

      http://projectgus.com/2011/02/bing-google-finding-some-facts/

    4. Ben Tasker

      Click Fraud

      Call me picky (and I know MS used it) but Click Fraud doesn't really fit what they are describing.

      Might be old fashioned, but I thought that the act of 'Click Fraud' was when one clicked adverts on one's own pages and thereby gaining ad revenue despite no 'real' visitor clicking the adverts.

      In the context of the article, what they are calling Click Fraud I'd just call a new method of Google bombing, except that it'd be Bing Bombing! It'd be gaming Bings algorithms sure, but fraud? Not directly.

      But then companies do seem to pick a 'cool' term and then see what they can shoehorn into it. Is there a bookies taking bets on how broadly a term can be used before it falls out of favour?

      1. jeroen
        Thumb Up

        Funny definition...

        So Google employees use Google to search for a Google (honeypot...) page and Microsoft is accusing them of click fraud.

        Very solid defence!

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    what is your problem?

    thanks for the iPhone idea, Steve.

    Steve Job says "good artist copy , great artist steal"

    so what is your problem?

    1. Me Meeson
      FAIL

      My problem?

      It's not anyone's problem but the Stevenator's. He steals with one hand while taking credit with the other. Even that quote was originally Picasso's...

  16. David Simpson 1
    FAIL

    Ending FAIL.

    " It's churlish of Google to play the foul card when last summer it blatantly refreshed its signature minimalist search page by giving people the option for some delicious Bing-like photo images as their search wallpaper. "

    Pretty big difference between copying a search engines results and just letting people pick a background image.

    "Google elsewhere has not been shy in copying the work of others - thanks for the iPhone idea, Steve."

    Android was bought by Google in 2005 (two years before the iPhone launch)

    It was founded by the co-founder of Danger (Andy Rubin) who had vast mobile experience.

    I thought it was an interesting article until the catty fan boy ending, shame really.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Grenade

    robots.txt

    As interesting as this is, I'd like to go back a bit and say it's more important that Google, MSN and most definately Yahoo! (who can shove their thin documents up their ****) actually pay attention to the robots.txt file

    We've discovered that all of the above named search engines have ignored robots.txt requests and two have been found to be so bad that we've actually firewalled those two from accessing the servers.

    I could also whine about a certain thumbnail generating site that generates thumbnails for all websites, accesses robots.txt and still generates a thumbnail when it's not welcome.

    Which at the time we thought was certain engines claiming to have the most websites listed etc, and now to find this.

    People have their favourite engine and lets all do the right thing and not copy stuff, it's not about who has the most links etc (copied/benchmarked or otherwise)

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Er?

    "thanks for the iPhone idea, Steve."

    IIRC Google bought a startup company who had laid the Android groundwork about a year before the iPhone was announced.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      That is correct...

      That's correct, but: At the time, Google had one of their guys (was is their CEO, I can't remember) as a non-exec on the Apple board of directors. So Google bought the mobile startup while they knew full well that Apple was developing the iPhone, waited to see how the iPhone panned out for Apple - and the iPhone was no sure thing - then released their own competing product.

      That's pretty close to industrial espionage in my book.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Goo Woo

    "But if you're going to try to beat the web’s number one-search engine, you’re going to have to pull in at least some of the data from their map of the web. Stands to reason."

    Fail. BIG FAIL.

    These are two cartographers vying to create the best map of the world. They are both drawing a picture of the same thing. If either one of them was short of resources I could see your point, but neither are. The publicity price to pay for being caught copying the competition would be too high.

    Whoever wins I'll be happy as long as I can find quality porn without my searches being sold to my bank manager, and without some uncontrolled f***er sitting on my doorstep grabbing my broadcast traffic. But I suspect that ultimately both consider this kind of information to be a potential revenue stream.

    Personally I preferred AltaVista.

  20. vic 4

    bing has been made better?

    I tied searching on MSDN this afternoon, couldn't find what I wanted, one google site specific search found it. Maybe bing was improved after me leaving work today.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Hmmm

    So Microsoft have over 1000 "signals" which they use to do search ranking and yet a few people searching for complete junk phrases (one was ‘hiybbprqag’ apparently) managed to circumvent those signals and push complete junk up the Bing search ranking.

    Maybe what Google did was a bit underhand but what is obvious is that Bing treats search results from Google with a very high ranking. If it didn't then how the hell did pages that weren't linked to anything apart from via Google Search get into their rankings. Either that or Bing is so wide open to very easy "click fraud" that its search result rankings are complete shite and MS should be grateful to Google for pointing this out to them

  22. Tom_

    Bing

    I've never used Bing, but now Google have pointed out that it includes their search results as well I reckon I might switch over to it. :)

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    I just use Opera!

    Oh, sorry... I thought this was a browser thread

  24. rahul
    FAIL

    Hey, here's an idea...

    why not just post a permanent tagline, "We hate Google" and be done with it? Google suspects misuse, tests for misuse, finds misuse, reports misuse, complains about misuse, and all this article says is that it's OK for Google's results to be misused since Google copies stuff too.

    Really? Someone rips you off, and you decide that the correct thing to do is to go and rip someone else off?

    And by the way, it's "vetting" not "wetting".

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    Do no evil...

    I bet they wish they hadn't picked that as a moto now...

    A couple of big servers feeding 'clickstream data' linking every and any possible combination of words to Google, would have really upset the world class Bing engineers I'm sure.

  26. Dave Cradle

    What did I misunderstand?

    Isn't this a complete set up by Google? They know how clickstream data works.

    As I understand from the original story they had their own guys opt in to the Bing clickstream feedback thing, they searched repeatedly on nonsensical terms and then clicked on the same link each time after searching.

    Later, they enter the term in to Bing and the only matches that it has are the clickstream data that says "when people searched for this term they then clicked on this link". So that link is displayed as the search result?

    So is this not them opting in to another companies "improve our results" program, sending poisoned results back, and then complaining that the poisoned results were displayed?

    Wouldn't this work for "strings no one is ever going to search on" with any automated feedback system?

    1. ArmanX

      The trick is that nothing but Google pointed to the data

      If the Bing toolbar just counted what's popular, it would have ranked the various sites highly under search words found on that site; however, instead, they stripped the search terms out of Google, and used those too.

      If I search for a word that is badly misspelled, Google corrects my spelling and does a search using the correction. If Bing copies that correction, they don't need to write their own spelling corrector; they just rely on Google to do it for them. Basically, stealing. No where did the nonsense words Google used appear in the pages they were linking to; only Google searches linked to those pages. The Bing toolbar would have had to strip out the the search term and use it to rank the results.

  27. Alicia

    Credit where it's due...

    At least MicroSoft aren't just taking the search criteria, plugging them into Google and presenting the results on the Bing page.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Credit where it's due...

      > At least MicroSoft aren't just taking the search criteria, plugging them into Google and presenting the results on the Bing page ..

      That's next years 'innovation' ..

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Google Search Wallpaper

    > It's churlish of Google to play the foul card when last summer it blatantly refreshed its signature minimalist search page by giving people the option for some delicious Bing-like photo images as their search wallpaper ..

    Where, the only reference I can find is here:

    "Saturday, April 25, 2009 .. Wallpaper Search .. Let's use the latest features added to Google Image Search to find a beautiful wallpaper for your desktop"

    http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/04/wallpaper-search.html

  29. Mike Moyle
    Coat

    Microsoft to Google:

    "You have no privacy. Get over it!"

    (Maybe Google should be allowed to change its name when it turns 21!)

  30. Aaron 10
    Jobs Halo

    Redmond, start your copiers!

    Now Google knows how Apple feels...

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