Technological approach:
The face and number plate of a McDonald's Drive-Thru customers are printed on the burger packaging at times of purchase. If said customer doesn't dispose of their rubbish responsibly they'll be easy to hunt down.
Rubbish activists have reportedly put anti-littering signs up in the West Midlands calling trash bandits "fools" whose parents still tidy up after them. The taunting signs have been reported springing up in the village of Ansley by BBC radio Coventry and Warwickshire. 3 mystery signs have appeared in Ansley to tackle …
The flaw in this, and I'm surprised at you lot but this is a Friday, is that the identifying marks are still on the wrappers even after you've disposed of them properly. Should the bin get knocked over, escape whilst being moved from recepticle to transport, fly away in the wind at the recycling plant/tip etc, you would still be fingered for it.
Should the bin get knocked over, escape whilst being moved from recepticle to transport, fly away in the wind at the recycling plant/tip etc, you would still be fingered for it.
Well, yes, but it would still be MY rubbish. As it'd only be a proportionate fine and an extremely rare occurrance, I think I could live with it. The window of opportunity for a bin incident is small, if we round up to 1% of disposals result in a bin problem, I'd have to eat drive thru McDs on average twice a week to get fined once per year.
That is, quite literally, brilliant.
Even a barcode that is tracable to the franchise and try to at least putting in a traceable path of accountability .
Have a small fine for every piece of litter linked to that franchise that encourages them to push back to customers to encourage more social behaviour.
"Even a barcode that is tracable to the franchise and try to at least putting in a traceable path of accountability"
A great deal of stuff in the UK foodchain (and probably elsewhere) is now marked at the 'manufacturers' with something that is to all intents and purposes a "serial number" specific to that that box, that batch, that bottle, whatever. In the right circumstances the serial number presumably could also be used to record which wholesalers, retailers, etc were involved in handling a particular set of boxes, bottles, etc.
Apply that information for a slightly different purpose and follow it through the supply chain and in principle you can work out which retailers are repeatedly facilitating anti-social behaviour (or worse).
Apparently not a particularly new idea:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/tag-every-bottle-of-alcohol-to-trace-adults-who-supply-child-drinkers-1-1523300 (2010)
That is, quite literally, brilliant.
Right, so you propose an end to privacy for burger munchers, and a national database that will in practical terms identify their eating habits, movements, all added to the existing CCTV surveillance, just to address the problem of littering? All very well saying that this only goes back to the burger outlet, you know that's bollocks. Although I'm all in favour of vendors taking responsibility for the subsequent actions of their customers - my car dealer should have to pay any speeding, parking or other motoring fines I get.
Meanwhile, over in today's "GCHQ want to spy on us all" thread, numerous people are complaining that GCHQ's and police desires to track the conversation of suspected terrorists and serious criminals threatens the general public's liberties. And likewise, when councils use surveillance powers to catch the owners who don't clear up their dogshit, there's an outcry.
Right, so you propose an end to privacy for burger munchers, and a national database that will in practical terms identify their eating habits, movements, all added to the existing CCTV surveillance, just to address the problem of littering?
Between ANPR, your mobile phone, and your VISA history, they already have that data. There is literally no new data added in the mix, save potentially what you ordered, and I presume McDs know that already.
There's no new privacy invasion here - you already freely give that data to the state now. Of course, if you walk there without your phone and pay by cash you might have a point, but you'll still be able to do that with the face printing anyway. Just take your rubbish home and burn it - no DNA, fingerprints, or facial images left behind.
Have a small fine for every piece of litter linked to that franchise that encourages them to push back to customers to encourage more social behaviour.
Good idea - fine both the customer and the vendor. That way the vendors will eventually bar irresponsible customers, so even if the fines go unpaid (don't they all when on welfare), there's still an incentive not to be untidy scum.
@Dave 126,
I'd suggest that, rather than try to track the individual customer, that the fast-food places be obligated to prove (by whatever means they like) that X% of their sales transactions have the packaging disposed of properly. Obviously, 100% would be an impossibly high target, but even a relatively low figure (say, 30%) would, I feel, force businesses to be proactive about rubbish collection so they could point at all the stuff they've collected as part of their target! Plus it would encourage the businesses to offer reusable serving materials, because those would be sales-without-packaging, so a "free" point on the scale.
And then you could slowly ramp the target up, and possibly use local council licensing to maintain a range of targets depending on location, so that black spots for litter would have higher standards until they're cleaned up.
A side benefit is that it would likely result in the fast food chains employing people to pick up trash, so they could meet their rubbish-collection targets as well as their profit targets.
Enforcement could be via local taxes: exceeding the target demonstrates social responsibility, so naturally that business is more valuable to the community and deserves to pay lower taxes, while missed targets label the company as a drain on society, deserving of higher taxes.
"Right, so you propose an end to privacy for burger munchers, and a national database that will in practical terms identify their eating habits, movements, all added to the existing CCTV surveillance, just to address the problem of littering?"
No.
This is why I modded it to have a barcode that linked it back to the franchise. But the principle is about accountability.
We don't need car dealerships paying speeding fines because - guess what? Cars have an identifying mark known as a registration plate, linking them to the owner so therefore no need to fine dealerships.
This was a sensible discussion. Keep it such and keep the hyperbolic outrage down a little.
Kthnxbai!
re Dave 126
Yep, brilliant idea.
Now all we need are Police forces who care a toss.
"Can i report some littering, McDonalds wrappers thrown, by a fat bird, out of a moving vehicle by a fat lass, of which i took a note of the the registration plate?"
"Hmmm, a fat bird you say, you're nicked sonny jim."
The problem with tracing dumped rubbish is that the dumpers know about the tracing and will steal personal details from the correctly disposed rubbish of others to include in their dumping. This diverts the simplistic investigation that might be done. Wastes times, throws people off.
Even if you are disposing properly in your collected rubbish, make sure there is no ID on anything.
Now, I will go and get my McDonalds takeaway, complete with personalised packaging, remove the identifying parts of the packaging and chuck the rest down the street.
Next.
The face and number plate of a McDonald's Drive-Thru customers are printed on the burger packaging at times of purchase.
That, Sir, is absolute genius. Even the most hard of thinking chav will preumably recognise their own mugshot on the wrapper.
Perhaps this could be linked to a publicly available and uptodate register of addresses, and also print their address onto the wrapper. That way if it turns up in your garden, you may return it to them.
That, Sir, is absolute genius. Even the most hard of thinking chav will preumably recognise their own mugshot on the wrapper.
Even the thickest chav is capable of removing the identifying parts of the packaging before chucking the rest over your garden fence. It's not much of an idea when thought through.
true its over thought technical solution. What proportion of litter are mcdonalds responsible for? youd have to tag all packing and everything in the packaging!
Better to make it more socially outrageous than it is now - like the sign in the article.
"But with the scourge of fly-tipping being what it is"
Not just about fly tipping. It is general litter which is a massive problem in the UK. I live on the edges of a very picturesque part of Wales. One particular cycle to Bala I remember being struck by the sheer amount of litter in the verges for, quite literally, miles.
Another episode, whilst motorcycling through Snowdonia, a complete cock throwing his empty sandwich box out of his white BMW in a known beauty spot.
And I guess we are fairly familiar with the pile of McDonalds litter that seems some people are too good to have sitting in their car until they go to a bin.
Do we collectively have so little regard, not just for the land we live on, but ourselves, to think that this is any way to act?
Do we collectively have so little regard, not just for the land we live on, but ourselves, to think that this is any way to act?
"Me first and don't give a fuck about anything else" is trendy nowadays. The consumer culture led to egotism being the norm... "because I deserve it"
**********
How else can we explain Brexit?
It's less than 10% of people that make 95% of litter. If you've ever tried talking to a person who throws litters down in the street, they really don't get what the problem is. They don't see it like the rest of us at all, to them it's a trivial thing and someone else will pick it up and that gives them a job.
But, if the 90% of clean people picked up and binned 2 items of litter on every trip out, litter would be hugely reduced. I do it.
I've just returned from a month in Germany and I had to look hard to find litter.
Partly and a bit of parents not instilling in their kids to not litter. It's not difficult, you either leave it in your car till you go to the supermarket or home (there are plenty of bins especially the one directly outside supermarkets) and anything else can go in your pocket or a bag till you get home or pass a bin (nearly every bus stop and outside a shop has a bin). Maybe they should also teach it in schools if they don't anymore.
The McDonalds problem is partly down to overflowing bins outside but what incentive do the staff have to empty the bins when they are targeted on sales though this is no excuse for those littering.
This is not the worst of it. People who drop litter obviously just are not thinking about anything but themselves. But there are worse people: people who dutifuly pick up and bag their dog's shit and then throw the bags into hedges or the road later, leaving people like me who pick up litter to get a really lovely surprise. People who do that are not just being careless: they're being consciously evil.
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...do what this outstanding young lad did:
I had a commute that took me through the kind of community that has a very low speed limit in the middle and derives a large portion of its municipal revenue using radar guns. One beautiful morning there was a young teen with a hand-painted sign "DANGER! ROOKIE COP WITH RADAR 1/2 MILE".
Eventually he put out a tip jar. I paid handsomely, one must reward good enterprise and all that.
Nahh, I never eat and drive. It interferes with my drinking.
Real litter problem around here are massive 18-wheeler garbage haulers shipping waste from the paradise of New York City into my fly-over county for dumping. The law says these loads must be covered and of course they are not, and they leave a vast swath of filth in their path. Those of us who care and try to keep our community clean cannot possibly keep up.
Coppers cannot be bothered to do a damn thing about it. Can see the patrol cars speeding along - doing 20 over - and ignoring a rolling fountain of crap in front of them.
But drive 5 over just after the speed limit drops from 55 to 25 ... you know, right after the hidden sign ... and you've got a court summons. F$cking pathetic wankers.
When I were a lad:
If you used the word "Mum" around these parts, you've just outed yourself as not from around here.
You possibly did Latin at school. Best mates with Mr Cholmondley Warner etc.
All would be forgivable (although the target of much merriment), as long as you didn't admit to being a Tory. Labour heartland and all that.
Many cars have cup holders, but none have an integrated rubbish bin. The absence of such a bin ( I'm imagining a compartment by the passenger footwell that pulls out in the same fashion as a glovebox) is absolutely no excuse for littering, but it can't hurt to design a car to make good behaviour more convenient.
Good idea, but wouldn't help some people. Ever browsed reddit.com/r/carbage? Some people are just slobs.
I was driving up the A41 towards Whitchurch some years ago, following a Land Cruiser. The knobheads in it were throwing out a piece of trash about every 50 yards. Cups, crisp packets, cigarettes... disgusting. Hanging's definitely too good for morons like that.
I made one of those in my first car (a Citroen GSA estate if you want to know). I screwed the lid of an ice cream tub to the side of the centre console in the passenger footwell, snapped the tub into place, made a rubbish sized hole in the top et voila, my own bin. Tended to be full of fag packets and crisp bags.
My employer gives me a car so small that the rear seats are pretty much useless if you have adults in the front. Hence any litter is dealt with by flinging it over your shoulder. Twice a year I simply open both back doors and push all the rubbish front one side into a bag tucked under the seat the other side.
I've been thinking a lot about littering\pollution, and how it's worse now than back in the 70's. Anybody remember the crying Native American when someone in a car tosses trash at his at his feet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Suu84khNGY
I think it's time to hold manufacturers accountable. I've also been thinking about how we can get away from disposable plastic packaging. Could making these packing receptacles be made to be reusable? Like beer bottles in a crate? I know there are some niche organic stores that are exploring the possibility of reuse-able containers for stuff like flour or sugar, or wash liquid.
Make the consumer responsible for reusing or returning the receptacle with a monetary deposit just like beer bottles...
In the end, rich board members or C or D levels don't give a shit about the environment, only how fat their bank books are. If the change doesn't start at the top, we're doomed.
I've noticed that many service stations in France now have huge bins as you leave to rejoin motorway i.e. big enough you can throw rubbish from car window. Would like to see a few of these at motorway junctions in UK which just seem to be knee deep in litter.
The 5p charge in bags does seem to have had a positive impact, so a similar tax on takeaway wrappers may be an option, although sadly I suspect the cash would never get back to the Local Authority who was responsible for picking it all up.
Looking on the brightside, I recall litter being a lot worse back in the mid-70s
"Would like to see a few of these at motorway junctions in UK which just seem to be knee deep in litter."
Worst one I'm aware of is the slip road off the southbound M1 for Chesterfield. At pretty much any time of the day, the traffic always has to stop and queue, even when there's only 2 or 3 vehicles so it seems many people take the opportunity to chuck their rubbish at that spot. One or a couple of large mouth bins there might help.
Being part of the motorway network, I doubt a "tiny little problem" like that will be dealt with in sensible way by Highways England. Maybe in a year or three a sign will be put up saying "picking your litter risks the lives of workers" rather than actually dealing with the problem.
I always said 'Mom', and indeed to still do to my...er, Mom; and yes, I was brought up in the West Midlands. I was always a little bit confused as to why all these weirdoes down in the South East said Mum, rather than the obviously far superior nomenclature Mom. And now I find out that it's actually a 'thing', and related to being originally from Brum. Why so?
^ You never know; more litter bins and having them emptied regularly may actually encourage people to use them. It at least provides 'no excuse for littering'.
Though I will usually take my litter home with me there are times where that isn't convenient and I want rid of it more immediately.
When councils won't use their tax revenues to cover people's refuse disposal needs littering and fly-tipping are an inevitable and predictable consequence. Just like closing public toilets leads to people pissing in gardens and alleyways, building on sports fields and parks leads to an unhealthy population and a rise in related illnesses, closing recreation centres leads to gangs of kids roaming the streets.
One UK council fined people for putting their addressed junk mail in a litter bin en route to the station in the morning.
Our council issued home recycling bins often lose their lids in a strong wind. Then the refuse lorry runs over them - so only a heavy brick might keep them in place next time. Anything identifiable - even package labels - only goes into my recycle bin after shredding.
Here in Ireland the abolishing of "free" Council operated waste collection has resulted in:
1) Massive increase in Fly-tipping
2) Multiple (up to 6 in some areas) waste trucks visiting the street.
3) Massive bins and smells as collection is at BEST once a fortnight instead of weekly, and sometimes they "miss" and you have a month!
4) Tipped & stolen bins because of the (illegal in some areas) insistence that Bins must be left out the night before.
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Also in my youth all bottles were returnable glass and all take out packaging was paper or card. Few shop sold foods had plastic packaging.
Put a BIG tax on plastic (because it's cheaper than card / paper), a big tax on ALL oil / gas / coal / briquettes, not just retail fuel. Ban single use plastic packaging that can't be easily recycled.
Incentive to use returnable & reusable packages.
Partly Thacherism/Reaganomics are to blame. Some things should be privatised, but not things best as a single entity. The solution is independent regulation, not privatisation, for rail, refuse, water, electriciy network, phone / mobile / data networks etc.
Also abolish "road tax" and especially Tolls (inefficient), simply increase the fuel duty, then the less efficient & higher users pay more.
"Partly Thacherism/Reaganomics are to blame."
In the Thatcher era - BBC TV had a one-off play that extrapolated the privatisation of the UK.
Every house had to contract with numerable one-person companies for basic services like policing or refuse collection. A memorable scene was a refuse collecting man who touted for business by having a blizzard of leaflets dropped from a helicopter.
When it came to education and jobs for the common people - the teenage daughter of the representative household was offered a job to be a surrogate mother for rich people.
And in my youth too. The difference between us is that when the returnable and re-usable glass went out of fashion for plastic, I asked why and paid attention to the answer.
The machine tools used to clean and fill the glass bottles would often need to be shut down because, contrary to popular belief, the glass bottles had a limited lifetime and would shatter after a few trips through the machinery. The machines would have to be stopped and cleaned of dangerous debris before the operation could be restarted.
Not only that, there was a chance of glass shards finding their way into other bottles, to end up being discovered (or not) by unlucky thirsty customers, who were getting more litigious.
The machines themselves were wonders of mechanical invention, and were therefore of necessity very complex with lots of moving parts. Moving parts always wear out (though in most cases the MTBF of machine tools of this type was impressively long), bringing the operation to a halt again.
And there were tougher laws on health and safety in the workplace being enacted, and tougher consumer protection laws being enacted, all making the plant owners very nervous indeed.
So there is a bit more practicality to the switch from glass to plastic than mentioned in your own analysis.
Getting rid of the re-use part of the business meant less money spent on maintenance, smaller business footprint (or more footprint on bottling product) and less exposure to litigation and censure from the government oversight bodies.
Win-win-win-win from where I'm sitting, from the viewpoint of someone not yet familiar with the downsides of plastics.
Recently a passing busybody on a crusade against the menace of dirty dogs decided to highlight a doggie-do by ringing it with white aerosol spray... except it wasn't! They had just tarmacked the road and one of the navvies must have been leaning on his spade and left a small pile of dirt on the pavement. Like the busybody, the dirt has now gone, but the white rings remain
Drove along a nice lane (BOAT) about 1/2 a mile, through the really rough bits and....
About 50m from the other end a 2m high pile of fly tipped rubbish.
Too high to drive over even.
Had to reverse out.
IF I see a fly tipper I will rip the limbs off the tipper using a Land Rover in low range, strop around ankles and pull.
They try and try to get people to clean up, here in the US of A. 5 cents a bottle, people will scour the roads to get the refund, they said. Then inflation kicked in. What that 5 cents once bought now costs about a quarter. So now the roadsides are littered with bottles. Another story: When I moved to my local county in upstate New Yawk the woods were littered, not with flies, but with large appliances - washers, dryers, stoves, computers, car parts, you name it. Turns out there was no legal way to dispose of bulky waste. Once the local fat cat Republican politician was sent to jail (and a few of his henchmen ended up there also or floating down the Hudson River) things improved, bulky waste was collected by the towns again, and the woods began to clear out.
Yes, I used to take bottles back to shops for the deposit refund decades ago. Used the money to play Space Invaders. Paying people to recycle is common in Europe.
I recall a can crusher in Sweden that gave out discount shopping vouchers.
I spend an hour or two some Saturdays clearing litter from along my daily cycle commute. A lack of bins doesn't help, but they would never be close enough for some litter tossers and just give more for the council to look after.
I see a lot of pizza boxes dropped, often near schools - maybe shops should offer pizza slices in a paper bag if it's for a bunch of kids just hanging out - reduce the inevitable waste? Or teach the kids not to drop them in the first place of course, or force the school to litter pick their local area as part of evironmental studies.
A lot of plasitc bottles of course - hopefully the impending deposit return scheme will help. If 5p can cut bag waste so must, maybe 5p back on a bottle will do the same.
"[...] but they would never be close enough for some litter tossers {...]"
For some unknown reason the council put a wooden bench at the end of our street***. Can't think of any other street that has one. They even replaced it after it was steadily vandalised until it became of no use.
By the end of the bench is a large litter bin (150mm gap) - with an enclosed top to prevent the wind redistributing its contents.
Regularly I pick up drink cans and fast food containers from the grass round the bench. It would have taken more energy to throw them there than it would have to drop them in the litter bin.
***Many years ago the council put a bench outside some shops. There were many complaints from the independent shopkeepers that the apparently disreputable regular bench occupants were affecting their footfall. One morning the bench was found to be neatly taken apart in a tidy pile. There were suspicions but nothing that could be proved. Many years later the culprits were posthumously identified as a group of the shopkeepers.
My local council removed all dog shit bins from all its parks. People are expected to take their dog shit home with them but I can understand why they don't or won't, why some people think 'if you won't entertain my desires I won't entertain yours', 'if you want to make my life inconvenient then I will make things inconvenient for the council' leaving everyone to become collateral along the way.
We never had a dog shit problem until the council decide it could save a small amount of money. While squandering millions on vanity and pet projects.
Selfishness begets selfishness.