Amazon already patent a corner, yes a corner a few years back in the US as they keeped submitting it so I think this patent may not make it
Samsung’s flexible phone: Expect an expensive, half-bendy clamshell
Samsung has applied for a US patent (PDF) for a foldable mobile device, giving important clues as to how it’s approaching the market with the new technology. The Korean firm's display division already leads the market in several notable areas, and the chaebol has done little to quell speculation that a device with a flexible …
COMMENTS
-
Monday 15th October 2018 14:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
People want and are used to a 16:9 / 2:1 type form factor, because videos are 16:9 and people spend a LOT of time watching video on their phones. A device that's 2:1 when unfolded folds into a square. Since you would obviously want something that unfolds LARGER than what you have today (otherwise why pay more for it?) then you'll end up with a square in your pocket that's significantly wider - and thicker - than your current phone.
It will sell at first because of the "cool" / "early adopter" factor, but once people have them they will not like them, and sales will quickly crater.
And this leaves out longer term reliability issues that will likely dog first generation folding phones. If engineers think having a machine fold / unfold it 10,000 times over a weekend will approximate real world longevity issues, they are in for a surprise.
-
Monday 15th October 2018 14:53 GMT Fuzz
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
That's not how the mobile phone market works.
At some point Apple will put the feature on an iPhone, after that all high end phones will have the feature. Eventually the whole market will have it. Doesn't matter if it's better or worse than what came before, it's different and that's enough. The market doesn't get a choice.
Just look at the notch, everyone knows it's stupid and yet all phones now have one. Same as most people would rather have a headphone socket a larger battery and expandable memory.
-
Monday 15th October 2018 15:22 GMT vir
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
Maybe they'll be a holdout though; they sacrifice a lot for a thinner form factor. You'll say that the phone could indeed be thinner when unfolded, but you can't fold one of these up and shove it in a pair of tight jeans like it was nothing.
-
Monday 15th October 2018 15:33 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
"Just look at the notch, everyone knows it's stupid and yet all phones now have one."
It was a brief fad, but the latest lot of expensive phones mostly don't have it. Samsung, Sony, notchless. Latest Oppo - which will spread to all BBK - vestigial notch. Xiaomi Mix range - no notch. Huawei - one vestigial notch, rumoured more to come.
I think many Chinese manufacturers learnt a lesson there.
-
Monday 15th October 2018 16:55 GMT Dave 126
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
Hard to tell. I have a notch-less 2:1 phone, when watching video I have it zoomed in slightly - though being OLED 'black bars' aren't an issue. The most profitable tablets, iPads, are squarer than video's 16:9. Movies are commonly streamed at a wider aspect ratio than 16:9. I've been told a lot of people shoot and watch video in portrait orientation on Twitter.
The issue with an unfolded tablet might prove to be holding it in one hand.
-
Monday 15th October 2018 18:19 GMT Charles 9
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
"The most profitable tablets, iPads, are squarer than video's 16:9."
Because they're usually held vertically (in portrait configuration), and the aspect ratio an iPad uses is closer to that of paper, making it a better tool for reading. Since you don't see landscape-designed (horizontal) iPads, it's supposedly what works, whereas Android tablets can vary considerably in their aspects and orientations.
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 16:51 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
Because they're usually held vertically (in portrait configuration), and the aspect ratio an iPad uses is closer to that of paper
The majority of time spent on any tablet, except perhaps the I-Pad Pro, is for media consumption, particularly video. The larger screen size makes is much easier on the eye because you still get a reasonably large picture at 70cm. Apple got this wrong, just like they got the size of the I-Pad wrong, initially. However, it's not a deal-breaker so they still sell I-Pads (still great kit), just at not as high a volume as they did initiallly. My guess is that most people who bought them for media consumption have replaced them with disposable, no-name Android tablets. Certainly, that's what I've seen recently among those people I know with them.
-
-
-
Monday 15th October 2018 17:28 GMT Dave 126
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
Sony prices are usually a fair bit cheaper than their list prices, and I haven't seen many of them in real life since the Z3 era. In terms of market share compared to Samsung and Apple, they sadly don't score highly. It'd be more accurate for you to have just said: "The other high volume, high priced phone vendor who actually turns besides Apple hasn't bothered with notches".
The reason being, Galaxy S devices have too many front-facing sensors, cameras and emitters to make a notch worth while.
-
-
-
Monday 15th October 2018 15:25 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
people spend a LOT of time watching video on their phones
Some do, others don't at all: it's a big market.
For some uses the bigger the screen the better, but also the more portable the better. This is why the hinged designs for notebooks has been so successful. This patent is a big vague but I can see some field workers drooling at the thought. But the execution will have to be perfectly tailored to the use case otherwise it'll be just another notch.
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 08:17 GMT DropBear
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
Except a "square" is just fine by me - I would hope to use it as a book reader, and the format would be just fine for that. Incidentally, it's why I would have no interest at all in a "clamshell" folder. One would think web browsing would be also significantly enhanced seeing as how the current 2:1 displays either show five lines of text in landscape or "hahaha get an electron microscope" in portrait.
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 14:09 GMT matt07743
Re: I still think a bifold device will be a market failure
"People want and are used to a 16:9 / 2:1 type form factor, because videos are 16:9 and people spend a LOT of time watching video on their phones"
this should be - people spend alot of time on the toilet watching porn, porn is in 16:9 for that perfect viewing while having a dump (or something else)
-
-
Monday 15th October 2018 14:48 GMT LeahroyNake
Obvious
'This design contains a “shape maintaining part” - which may or may not be flexible - attached to the “deformable part”.'
The instant clamshell was mentioned I thought that bending the screen at a sharp angle would break it. So i thought hmmm hollow space behind to increase the bend radius. Oh look that's what the patent image looks like #obvious. It is also similar to the away that laptop hinges protect the cabling etc I'm sure you can think of more examples.
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 08:49 GMT DropBear
Re: Obvious
Duh, of course it's obvious. And of course it gets granted anyway. That's patents for you these days. Hopefully you have more money than $industry_giant if you wish to dispute it legally though. Sometimes I think I should just patent "method and apparatus for transporting liquids by counteracting gravity through forming a concave shape" and start collecting license fees from everyone who wants a glass of water...
-
Thursday 18th October 2018 06:15 GMT Charles 9
Re: Obvious
Then they'll just patent the same thing in a cylindrical or semispheric shape and work around you. The best weapon against a patent is another patent if you have the resources to survive the siege of a patent war. That's how Google survived the assault of MPEG-LA with its VP codecs intact.
-
-
-
-
-
Monday 15th October 2018 17:05 GMT Dave 126
Re: Typical Samsung
The Note 4 failed on a single component - the battery - partly supplied by third parties and Samsung's rush leading to trying to squeeze it into too small a space. The number of Note 4 owners who were loath to return them for a refund -, forcing Samsung to remotely disable the handsets' access to cellular networks - suggests the rest of phone was good.
-
-
-
Monday 15th October 2018 15:16 GMT Lee D
Things that a foldable phone fixes:
- Too huge and thin a device in my pocket, compared to a littler, fatter one.
- No accidental screen presses (if I put my phone in my pocket unlocked, I have often come back to all kinds of icons all over the place and deep in the menus and even nearly butt-dialling people).
Things that a foldable phone makes worse:
- Longevity. Any moving part is bad - look at your current phone and name the actual moving parts. For most phones this is quite literally "whatever is inside the accelerometer".
- Screen scratches - now you can trap something inside your phone and scratch the hell out of your screen.
- Ever increasing cost. This stuff ain't going to come cheap.
- Manufacturing faults. I guarantee that within days of release someone will post a photo of one that has half the screen invisible because the bit in the middle failed.
It's a good idea, but until we have a literal materials revolution (i.e. something unscratchable, flexible, durable and touch-compatible enough without being a NASA-grade material), it's not going to be any good.
-
-
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 06:15 GMT Anonymous Coward
Sand getting stuck and scratching the screen
All they need is a 0.1mm high border around the display to avoid having it physically touch the display on the other side, which will also avoid letting fine grit get caught. Something bigger like a grain of beach sand could get in there I suppose, but that's on you for letting something that obvious get stuck in there...
I think longevity will be a huge problem. This is the sort of thing that they can simulate with a robot that folds/unfolds the screen thousands of times and when they market it say "we have tested it with 50,000 folds/unfolds, equivalent to you doing this 30x a day for five years" but that won't matter. Robots will fold and unfold it in exactly the same way, while people will add a little twisting force every time. Plus the device will get squeezed into pockets, dropped, sat on, etc. which will further stress the folding parts.
I'd stay well away from the first gen products, I predict the issues/complaints of early adopters will really ramp up around six months after it goes on sale.
-
-
-
-
Monday 15th October 2018 17:41 GMT Down not across
"Clamshell phones have all but died out"
Clamshell phones have all but died out, which suggests Samsung has a big market job persuading the public that the benefit of the form factor outweighs the inconvenience of unfolding it.
That depends on the market. I did fairly recently, after getting fed up with "feature" phone pocket dialing despite being allegedly locked, look if there were any clamshell phones (other than some awful Doro or Binatone) available. Seems like the answer is yes ...if you're in Asia. Accordingly the answer is "no" if you're in EU. And yes some were made by Samsung. So perhaps not much persuasion will be required.
-
Monday 15th October 2018 18:47 GMT heyrick
Can't imagine this will last long
Folding parts wear. It's basic mechanics. Folding ribbons in a restricted space (Bluetooth headphones) last literally months before failure (about on par with wired headphone jacks then), and even things designed for movement (printer heads, scanner platens, Psion 3a) eventually wear out. And how many conductors are we talking? Four four headphones, maybe a dozen or two for scanners and printers? It's a long way from a bendy screen.
Just imagine how many times a day a person will fold and unfold their phone. Multiply by days. I'm sure it would give the user bragging rights for cutting edge technologies, but let's be honest here, I think you'd be lucky to have any still working by the end of the two year guarantee period.
-
Monday 15th October 2018 18:52 GMT Charles 9
Re: Can't imagine this will last long
"And how many conductors are we talking? Four four headphones, maybe a dozen or two for scanners and printers? It's a long way from a bendy screen."
Couldn't you say the same thing about laptop designs that need to carry video signals and usually audio because the speakers are on the display half? If there are antennae on the display half, those wires would need to be included, too.
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 06:19 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Can't imagine this will last long
Couldn't you say the same thing about laptop designs that need to carry video signals and usually audio because the speakers are on the display half?
Take a look at the stout hinges on a typical laptop. Who will buy a phone using those? They can't do what laptops do, they need to very tiny hinge that's also super strong/durable.
They'd actually be better off they can make the screen the only thing that folds, with nothing behind it. We know displays can do that, the problem is they will be very easy to damage in the unfolded state. Not to mention that they are see thru, so they'll need at least minimal backing to prevent that (or find a way to sell it as a "feature")
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 11:37 GMT heyrick
Re: Can't imagine this will last long
"Couldn't you say the same thing about laptop designs"
No, because in the laptops I've poked around inside, it's a fairly thick bundle of regular wires with plastic wrapping holding them together - a bundle only marginally thinner than an average modern phone...
-
-
Monday 15th October 2018 20:10 GMT Kernel
Re: Can't imagine this will last long
From the dim, dark, memories of my past which involved many happy hours fixing faults on manual telephone exchanges, the one thing that I don't recall giving any trouble were the wiring looms connecting the relays behind each individual switchboard position,
The relays were mounted on hinged gates, which had to be opened every time a cord needed to be replaced ie., far too bloody often for my taste! The wiring loom for these was about 50mm in diameter and was much older than I was, even back then, but wires in the loom never broke, regardless of how often the gate was opened.
The secret to making this sort of thing work correctly is to run the wires along the length of the hinge and clamp each end to one of the hinged pieces. This way you end up with a firmly held straight loom, with the only motion being a twisting along the length of the hinge, rather than a bending motion which will rapidly work-harden the conductors and cause them to snap.
All of the admittedly few laptops I have stuck my nose into seem to use a similar arrangement.
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 11:27 GMT Dave 126
Re: Can't imagine this will last long
> Folding parts wear. It's basic mechanics
Not necessarily. It depends upon the material and the minimum radius of the bend. Nor are pivots and hinges doomed to fail before other parts of a product.
True, caution, careful engineering and testing would be required to make it durable, but it's not impossible as you imply.
-
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 11:06 GMT David Roberts
Clamshell?
I rarely make or receive phone calls on my Galaxy S5 but when I do I really struggle with the microphone. Other end can rarely hear me. I assume this is because the microphone is behind the pinhole at the bottom, not helped by the soft case, and the tiny speakers are at the back.
What would be nice would be a phone with a decent sized microphone and speakers. Clamshell so the speakers are by the ear and the microphone folds round to be near the mouth. [No I don't want to carry round a headset just for the couple of times a month I may need to make a call.] Bigger speakers and microphone don't play well with the screen side nor with the edges of ever thinner cases. How about a phone which folds backwards so you can hold the speaker and microphone on the back of the case next to your ear and mouth? Just like a real phone.
-
Tuesday 16th October 2018 11:33 GMT Dave 126
Re: Clamshell?
The problem you describe has been solved, though either imperfectly in your S5 or, as you suspect, the case was to blame. I suspect your phone's case was blocking a second microphone.
The technique involves several microphones placed apart and some digital signal processing. This allows the phone to distinguish sound coming from your mouth (which is at a distance only a few multiples of the distance between the microphones) and background noise (which is many many multiples - of the inter-mic distance away.
-