back to article Activists raise alarm over insidious creep of surveillance in the UK

Campaigners have sounded a fresh alarm against the normalisation of surveillance across the UK, the effects of the “nothing to fear, nothing to hide” rhetoric, and unchecked experiments with public data-sharing. The warnings come in Big Brother Watch’s latest report, The State of Surveillance 2018 (PDF), which brings together …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As a kid in the 60's

    All we had to worry about was Mrs Bragg spying on us from behind her curtains.

    To be fair to her, she had good reason to!

    1. Dr_N
      Big Brother

      Re: As a kid in the 60's

      ... because you used to pick on her son Melvyn?

    2. Nick Kew
      Big Brother

      Re: As a kid in the 60's

      That was the era of the cold-war spy thriller - and your parents had lived through total war. Gadgets galore. Anywhere you went, someone might be spying on you with a hidden camera and/or microphone.

      I grew up without ever feeling a secure sense of privacy.

      1. Winkypop Silver badge

        Re: As a kid in the 60's

        Original AC.

        Not in rural NSW.

        The most spy-based encounter I had was wearing a pair of Bata Scout shoes with the hidden compass in the heel.

  2. onefang

    Who watchers the watchers? I'm guessing the state isn't gonna surveille The State of Surveillance 2018 report, or at least not pay much attention to it. Big Brother Watch better watch out, Big Brother is watching them.

  3. 45RPM Silver badge

    Supposing for a moment that “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear” is a credible statement, we’d still need to add the coda “at the moment” to it.

    With the rise of the far right, organisations which bear a good deal of resemblance to the extremists of Weimar Germany, and the clamour of those who would, if not actively support then at least happily accept them, and the pandering of mainstream political parties to these new extremists, I think that we should be very worried.

    As the piece discusses (good job el Reg), people are concerned that they might end up on a list for doing something as innocent as protesting. And what is legal today might, to take an extreme example, be a hanging offence tomorrow (being Romany, disabled or Jewish to pluck an example from eighty years ago)

    1. deive

      Well said 45rpm. The only thing is "people are concerned that they might end up on a list for doing something as innocent as protesting" has already happened and is being swept under the carpet as we speak. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/09/undercover-police-female-activists-inquiry-farce

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Well said 45rpm. The only thing is "people are concerned that they might end up on a list for doing something as innocent as protesting" has already happened and is being swept under the carpet as we speak. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/09/undercover-police-female-activists-inquiry-farce"

        While I agree with and appreciate your comment @deive, perhaps you missed El Regs article on Google's AMP project: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/07/google_kills_www/

        In a form of protest, please adjust any web links and remove Google's AMP reference like so:

        https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/09/undercover-police-female-activists-inquiry-farce

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      @ 45RPM

      "With the rise of the far right, organisations which bear a good deal of resemblance to the extremists of Weimar Germany"

      I agree with your the concerns of your comment but for the problem of only looking at far right extremists as a problem. Unfortunately such characterisation makes people think it is safe to keep moving left even to the extremes. The resemblance with destructive organisations are authoritarians regardless of their left or right leaning.

      It is that controlling behaviour which is the problem, the authoritarian desire to control to greater and greater extents. Often supported by people who think it will only affect those over there but not themselves.

      1. 45RPM Silver badge

        Re: @ 45RPM

        @codejunky

        Absolutely. As a notorious woolly liberal fence sitter I agree unreservedly. A little of everything and everything in moderation. A sprinkle of capitalism here, a dash of socialism there - and everyone be excellent to one another. But, as I see it, it’s the far right that is causing trouble at the moment, whether in its guise of trumpism, faragism (and moggism and johnsonism), or putinism - or even in its Isis and al Quaida forms.

        Many might dispute that Islamic fundamentalism can be conflated with the far right nationalism of the west but I’d argue that they are one and the same - “we’re the best and anyone who disagrees is damned (or a traitor)”

        And once you go far enough right or left I suspect that you end up in the same place.

        1. phuzz Silver badge

          Re: @ 45RPM

          Many might dispute that Islamic fundamentalism can be conflated with the far right nationalism of the west but I’d argue that they are one and the same - “we’re the best and anyone who disagrees is damned (or a traitor)”

          Exactly. They might be different from a political standpoint, but the people involved are far more similar than they'd be willing to admit. They'd rather the world conformed to their overly simplistic viewpoints and they're willing to use violence to promote that (because violence doesn't require the subtlety, understanding, or empathy that they lack).

    3. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge

      Quote: "With the rise of the far right, organisations which bear a good deal of resemblance to the extremists of Weimar Germany"

      And who defines what is "far right"?

      Is it far right to campaign for incoming migrants to conform to the local culture?

      Is it far right to campaign for democratic control of a county's future?

      The moment you start criminalising political thought IS the moment that the far right (and left) crawl out of the wood work and say "Those in control fear us.. join us to over throw those in control"

      And thats the moment both sides of the extremist movements get mass support.

      1. 45RPM Silver badge

        @Boris

        I suppose the answer is “it depends”

        I think I’d argue that it is pretty extreme to demand that immigrants conform to the local culture. I’d merely demand that if immigrants can’t accept the indigineous culture in a live and let live kind of way then they should go to another country where they’d be happier. Turning it on it’s head, if you decided to live in the UAE (perhaps following a very lucrative job offer), would you wear a thawb? Would your wife wear a burka? Would you eschew beer or pain killers in the privacy of your own home? Would you fast at Ramadan? No? And so why should immigrants to the UK do likewise?

        As for democratic control of a country, I suppose that depends too. We have democratic control of our country now - plus a say in what happens in wider Europe. We’ll have very little, if any, more control after Brexit - and no say at all in wider Europe. But I’d argue that, locally, the decisions made in Brussels are equally as irrelevant as the laws made in London. My perfect solution would be tighter integration with Europe for non-local matters, and devolution of power (education, healthcare, planning) to the regions. Sadly, a lot of cock was spouted by the Brexiteer* factions regarding how undemocratic Europe is - and the right wing press and social media barfed it out to the public unedited and uncorrected. Many, sadly for us, believed it.

        *And yes, I know that it’s traditional to wetly qualify that statement by saying that both sides talked cock - but I’m not the BBC and I don’t have to comply with some simple-minded half-arsed definition of fairness. The truth is that the Brexiteers lied their arses off - and the Remainers didn’t tell any sexy porkies to combat them.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Is it far right to campaign for democratic control of a county's future?

        Only if you're from Yorkshire.

      3. SVV

        Incoming migrants to conform to the local culture

        Compulsory binge drinking lessons for all!

        Followed by a kebab or a curry, obviously.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "With the rise of the far right,"

      What "rise of the far right"? The far right remains a tiny bunch of disorganised, unfunded idiots, no coherent party structure, able to do nothing but make a noise, and for a tiny fraction of them to commit a few random acts of violence.

      A far more pressing concern is the wanton refusal of the newly-extreme Labour party to address its strong anti-semitic streak, for the gormless bearded twat to apologise for and renounce his previous support of terrorists, anti-semites, and a whole range of oppressive, extreme, non-democratic regimes.

      Corbyn and his fellow arseholes are normalising anti-semitism by their refusal to acknowledge, confront and reject it. Given that this is a party with almost 40% of the seats in Parliament, surely THAT'S what should make us very worried.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "With the rise of the far right,"

        A far more pressing concern is trolls hijacking threads to try and change the subject to whatever it is they happen to want to talk about.

        We need to return to the golden age of trolling, where they just used to go "Meow! Meow! Meow!"

        1. 45RPM Silver badge

          Re: "With the rise of the far right,"

          @AC

          A far more pressing concern is trolls hijacking threads to try and change the subject to whatever it is they happen to want to talk about.

          What would you rather talk about? Trolls perhaps? Conversation (whether in meatspace or cyberspace) evolves and can end up far away from the original topic. That's part of what makes it interesting. The problem comes when someone butts into the conversation, and tries to forcibly wrest the subject onto something different (Trolls, for example) rather than letting it naturally wend its way there.

          But if you really want to change the subject to whatever it is I happen to want to talk about, we'll be discussing classic cars (and, in particular, the merits of installing an electronic ignition system), retro computers, the cabinet I happen to be making from a very nice piece of oak, my plans for a new shed, whether or not I should grow courgettes next year and whether or not I'll ever get around to making jam with this years harvest (not until I get a new stool I won't). Do any of those topics interest you?

          1. gypsythief

            Re: "Do any of those topics interest you?"

            Well, actually, yes (though I'm not the AC to whom you were replying...)

            "whether or not I should grow courgettes next year and whether or not I'll ever get around to making jam with this years harvest (not until I get a new stool I won't)."

            Two questions arise from this statement: 1) Why do you need a stool to make jam, and 2) what on earth does courgette jam taste like anyway?!?*

            (*Well, courgettes, I suppose...)

            1. 45RPM Silver badge

              Re: "Do any of those topics interest you?"

              @gypsythief

              I’m not as young as I used to be (who is?) and I’ll be buggered if I’m going to stand at the stove for hours stirring the jam, hence the need for a stool.

              The jam might be damson, plum, blackberry, blackcurrant, gooseberry or strawberry - because those are the fruits a) that I grew, b) that are suitable for jamming and c) that I have in sufficient quantity. The crabapple will be made into jelly.

              The courgettes will most likely be eaten fried with garlic, or in a risotto - or turned to chutney.

              1. gypsythief

                Re: "Do any of those topics interest you?"

                "...stand at the stove for hours stirring the jam..."

                ah, a bar stool (I suppose obvious if I'd thought about it...); I had this silly vision of someone sat on a milking stool, stirring jam over a Trangia.

                Shame about not making Courgette jam though. I was rather curious as to what that would be like (though I'm sure chutney makes a good substitute!)

                1. Intractable Potsherd

                  Re: "Do any of those topics interest you?"

                  Courgette and ginger jam is very nice - and just about the only valid use for courgette :-)

          2. This post has been deleted by its author

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "With the rise of the far right,"

            You're not the troll, 45RPM. The guy who butted in with 'Corbyn and his arseholes' is the troll.

            Nobody's fault that El Reg can't indent comment thread properly. (But that of course is for another comment thread.)

      2. Bernard M. Orwell

        Re: "With the rise of the far right,"

        I was going to reply to your post, but really....it's not worth it if you've fallen for the anti-Semite nonsense being spread by right wing propagandists in order to detract from their own monstrosities and throw a smoke screen over the real evils they are committing daily. If you want a list, I'll provide it.

        Perhaps its worth your time examining the number of actual cases of anti-Semitism, where people have been sacked from Labour to the number of sacking for Islamophobia in the Conservative party in the same time frame. Apparently the overwhelming number of such sackings has been insufficient to warrant the same demands that May steps down....

        https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/islamophobia-conservatives-theresa-may-time-she-addressed-it-a7715216.html

        Also, please note: Criticism of the Israeli government and/or support for the people of Palestine is not Anti-Semitism - I hate trump and his mindless half-arsed, child-brained policies, and I think that US justice is a racist, capital led farce and their their "exporting of democracy" is just hateful propaganda but I don't hate all Americans in general just because they happened to be born there. Same horse right there.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: "With the rise of the far right,"

          "Criticism of the Israeli government and/or support for the people of Palestine is not Anti-Semitism"

          But apparently comparing the ghettoising and villification tactics(*) used by the Israeli government against Palestinians to similar tactics used by a certain european government against a certain etho-religious group during the late 1930s _is_ - and that's the contentious part that's somehow been slipped into the "International definition of Antisemitism".

          (*) If the methods walk like a duck and quack like a duck....

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "With the rise of the far right,"

            "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."

  4. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Gimp

    But let's be clear. By "the state" we mean the small cabal of data fetishists who *really* want it

    They are both patient and obsessive in a way only the truly irrational can be.

    Start with the PPE graduates.

    There seems to be something in the combination of going to an Oxbridge college and doing this course that creates a level of self belief and entitlement that many would characterize as "Arrogant pr**ks" (if they weren't already that way to begin with).

    1. Wellyboot Silver badge

      Re: But let's be clear. By "the state" we mean the small cabal...

      Oxbridge PPE is just the recognized top level qualification for the activity known as 'Arguing the toss'.

      Since the removal of 'fagging' from such institutions there has been no induction into the art of taking unpleasant commands before being in a position to give them.

      Together these unrelated items have lead us to the current 'political class' whose self entitlement really irks us poor proles.

    2. Bernard M. Orwell
      Happy

      Re: But let's be clear....

      "Start with the PPE graduates"

      Oi! I'm a PPE undergrad (mature student and then some) and I'm absolutely not in favour of a surveillance police state. In fact, the reason I started studying PPE was to equip myself to the same standards as the muppets who are in charge so that I can challenge on the same terms.

      On day one of year one our lecturer told us this; "You may come into this course expecting to learn 'good and right politics', but you'd be mistaken. You may enter as a socialist, a capitalist, a fascist or libertarian. I assure you, you will leave the course with your views reinforced and a stronger belief that ever before that you are in the right. I hope to challenge that by providing you with tools to challenge yourselves; but only you can present that challenge and most, sadly, choose not to."

      So, that reinforces your maxim of API, APO. (arrogant pricks in, arrogant pricks out), but lets not assume that anyone who studies PPE needs to be horse-whipped.

      Here's hoping I'm not an arrogant prick at the end of it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: But let's be clear....

        Bernard M. Orwell,

        Your posts have been accurate & true and additionally you are sufficiently self-aware to know the 'API ... APO' maxim.

        I would therefore not be worrying about the end result ..... as long as you do not forget to regularly assess if you are going into 'Echo Chamber' mode. :) ;)

        Unfortunately, others have let their 'Petticoats slip' exposing their biases (Political and otherwise) and their lack of questioning of *ALL* apparent 'truths' whatever the source.

        Everyone lies, 'groups' will reinforce their 'common beliefs' including their lies with each other and trumpet them as great truths.

        Politics is about manipulation of the masses by using these truths for and against the 'appropriate' group(s) to try to gain a wanted result.

        This applies to all parties, Far Right & Far Left and all shades between.

        All such 'facts' should be considered potentially 'suspect' and not blindly taken onboard at any time.

        I would have expected people who work in the IT field and spend so much time questioning 'everything', as part of their jobs, to apply these same skills to all about them. :)

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    HIghly Recommended Read

    Saw the link yesterday in Reg Forum message.

    Interesting info on Operation Curable and chilling effects on Journalism.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      operation-curable

      https://theintercept.com/2017/11/29/met-police-snowden-leaks-operation-curable/

      https://www.rt.com/uk/411338-journalist-snowden-leak-investigation/

  6. macjules
    Black Helicopters

    Self-inflicted?

    We live in a day and age of "social media" (oxymoron intended) where for some reason Facebook must have your location set to 'Always' or where Über must always be tracking you, and be able to monitor your location using 'God View'. Add to that Google, Amazon and all the rest constantly recording everything you say in your home, so that their "home assistants" can respond quickly to your occasional whimsical request for what's next up on TV.

    And people are worried about the government monitoring them?

    1. James 51
      Big Brother

      Re: Self-inflicted?

      It's not either/or. You can be worried about both.

      1. 45RPM Silver badge

        Re: Self-inflicted?

        @James51

        Exactly. It’s not about whether you lock the front door (Government surveillance) or the back door (Social media). You should lock both.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Lets tie both hands behind our backs

    She called for “an iron-clad firewall” between Home Office immigration control and other departments, and a move away from the prioritisation of immigration enforcement over the protection of public service data.

    Many people would consider it the job of the government to ensure that the benefits paid for by the citizens of a country are only available to those lawfully in the country.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Lets tie both hands behind our backs

      "Many people would consider it the job of the government to ensure that the benefits paid for by the citizens of a country are only available to those lawfully in the country."

      True, of course, but when do you draw the line at restricting the many to protect from the few? This is the primary thrust of the article and most of the comments. When does infringement of freedoms become too costly?

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    '“Nothing to Fear' - Just cancel christmas + FREEDOM

    Nothing to fear. This is where we're headed and its going to be glorious:

    ____

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2018/06/18/chinas-social-credit-system-spreads-to-more-daily-transactions/

    https://www.cnet.com/news/black-mirror-too-real-in-china-as-schools-shun-parents-with-bad-social-credit/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2018/jul/12/algorithm-privacy-data-surveillance

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43428266

    https://neweconomics.org/2018/07/whats-your-score

    https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-mass-surveillance-social-credit-china-big-data-886786

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/13/we-created-poverty-algorithms-wont-make-that-go-away

    .

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    'Skripal Case Shows the Limits of Surveillance'

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-09-07/skripal-case-shows-the-limits-of-surveillance

    "The UK’s ubiquitous surveillance cameras have clearly played an important role in the attribution of the attempted poisoning of an ex-spy in Salisbury to the Russian military intelligence. Thanks to the cameras, the two Russian suspects’ movements were tracked exhaustively."

    "But this seeming success also lays bare the biggest problem with universal surveillance: If everyone is tracked, no one is, so the cameras can only perform their function so late after the fact that even those criminals who are identified are less likely to be apprehended."

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 'Skripal Case Shows the Limits of Surveillance'

      So, two Russian military officers of the GRU, by using false names at immigration, were able to travel to a large UK military base unchallenged, unhindered and un-monitored by the UK state, and then failed to assassinate their target using a nerve agent apparently so dangerous it could kill 4000 people.

      Good job they weren't terrorists or they might have made a bit of a mess. Or maybe they were "allowed" to do what they did, with the full knowledge of the security services.

      But as long as UK citizens are under constant surveillance...

      Draw your own conclusions.

      1. Roj Blake Silver badge

        Re: 'Skripal Case Shows the Limits of Surveillance'

        Full credit to those Russian lads for managing to travel on SWR from Waterloo to Salisbury on a Sunday and from there to Heathrow.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The control freaks in charge of the UK,

    and by implication, state employees, have little interest in making it a better place for anyone but themselves.

    As far as they're concerned, subduing the population is something to aspire to.

  11. Florida1920
    Big Brother

    Just now waking up?

    Netflix U.S. ran a UK-produced series on video surveillance there, touting its excellence in catching bad guys. It's not as though this is something new.

  12. DCFusor

    Not fond of the idea

    that legislation will always be playing catchup. It's a frigging excuse for incompetence, and allowing some to take advantage over others.

    Was it not illegal to defraud and steal and call in swat and on and on long before the internet existed?

    We had plenty of laws, and still do.

    We need around one more law - and it'll never happen due to who would be limited by it - government, and of course, the big money making outfits that exist only because there's no law limiting or banning the collection of whatever data on you and selling it one way or another.

    Governments even buy data from these companies - Experian, Equifax, Google, Facebook, telcos...stuff they can't legally collect on their own without a warrant, but is legal to buy. And it's not like you can opt out of almost all of this to let free market forces work....I could go on to the point of death by boredom.

    Seems like the last time a government passed a self-limiting law, or for that matter, one that didn't advantage the big scale outfits at the expense of the little guys - was in the US - around the time the constitution was written. And now...if you "identify" as a constitutionalist, that's one of the "indicators of possible terrorism" at least in the US. As is having a long term supply of food, like you know, all the farmers who built this country always had, because life...and things.

    Not a fan of partisanship. Yes, the far-right is bad. The far left - cry-bullies, SJWs, and even "normal progressives", trigger and offend me as well, and have a track record of being more, not less, controlling over what I'm allowed to think/believe/do. Someone isn't being intellectually honest. They're ALL bad and want to use you like cattle. How about we all just try to be good to each other and leave it at that?

    All the bad stuff is law *leading* tech, not trailing it....pay attention.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Not fond of the idea

      "Governments even buy data from these companies - Experian, Equifax, Google, Facebook, telcos...stuff they can't legally collect on their own without a warrant, but is legal to buy."

      Government also contracts out security clearances too. Apart from ECRB, I have three other security clearances for dealing with various government institutions, all of which were carried out via commercial companies, all of which asked for almost identical information and identical documentation with a couple of minor differences. I have no idea what these private companies do to check/confirm my data, how long they hold on to it or what else they might do with it. Why I can't get all my security clearances through a single organisation, merely submitting any extra data that a specific clearance might require over and above the common majority, is beyond me.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Good to see the surveillance is so effective

    Knife crime, terrorism, drug offences and especially organised crime, all eliminated. Money well spent - I feel safer already.

    Oh, wait.

  14. cam

    I'm ok. I have my anti-surveillance kit all in place.

    - Tin Foil Hat (set to wide angle);

    - SeeBackRoScope - In case a spy is sneaking up on you;

    - Journey Randomiser -They'll never guess where you're going if you don't have a f***ing clue;

    - Budget voice changer (a.k.a. ball-pein hammer) - two sharp hits to a fleshy area with guaranteed results

    In addition, disable all Windows services. That way they can't possibly monitor your IT behaviour. Counting blue pixels is actually fun, and the rest of the world is a much nicer colour.

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