back to article Amnesty slaps Google amid crippled censored China search claims

Google is said to be preparing to launch a censored version of its search engine in mainland China, restoring a service it launched in 2006 and discontinued in 2010 in response to an attack on its infrastructure. According to documents obtained by The Intercept, a censored version of Google Search, dubbed Dragonfly, has been …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    From The Intercept article: "At a June 2016 conference in southern California, Pichai made his intentions clear. 'I care about servicing users globally in every corner. Google is for everyone,' he said. 'We want to be in China serving Chinese users.'"

    What comes to mind, every time I read servicing and customers in a piece, is the customer getting screwed. So that fits.

    Second thought is: Beware letting the nose of a camel under the edge of your tent lest you next have all of the camel in the tent.

  2. JohnFen

    Don't know why anyone expects differently

    Google is no less evil than any other international megacorporation.

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      Re: Don't know why anyone expects differently

      Because unlike all the other international megacorporations Google has "Don't be evil" in it's code of conduct.

      Ok, "expect" is maybe a bit strong, but they said it so we're allowed to keep pointing it out!

      1. JohnFen

        Re: Don't know why anyone expects differently

        Yes, the betrayal of that motto is well worth beating Google over its head about. All I'm saying is that at this point, we shouldn't expect Google to behave any differently than other corporation of its size.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How is this hurting Chinese customers?

    Currently they use Baidu, which is censored. If they get another option, also censored, they are no worse off.

    It isn't great, but refusing to do business with them isn't going to make them change either. Indeed, by staying away for years all they did was make Baidu that much stronger. The real risk for Google is that they'll introduce Google search in China, and no one will care.

    1. JohnFen

      Re: How is this hurting Chinese customers?

      This isn't really about hurting Chinese customers -- as you point out, it's pretty much six of one, half dozen of the other.

      This is about the fact that Google submitting to the Chinese government like this means it loses any leverage it has to advance the cause of freedom and liberty anywhere else in the world. Although I think that's more about perception than anything else, as I don't think Google has any real interest in being a force for good. Their interest is just profit.

    2. aberglas

      China will ask Google to censor USA as well.

      Just like they censored Taiwan off US airline sites.

      Once Google starts making money out of China, they will not want to upset the Chinese government. At all.

      The censorship of western Google will obviously not be anything like as strong as the Chinese. But searches for Fulong Gong, Taiwan etc. might just not turn up the pages you would expect, at least not in the first few pages of results.

      1. sabroni Silver badge

        Re: but refusing to do business with them isn't going to make them change either

        Isn't it? It might not change government policy overnight but it does mean that, if the product's good enough, people will find a way to use it. So it could well encourage technology that circumvents government censorship.

        You're argument sounds a lot like "Some people are thieves so I should steal too".

  4. VikiAi
    Black Helicopters

    It's just a test.

    Once they have satisfied China, they will then be in a strong position to offer country-specific web-censorship to the rest of us as our own governments pay up.

    1. Nick Kew

      Re: It's just a test.

      They'll be deploying stuff like the "right to be forgotten". Along with the same technologies that our own and other governments are requiring of them to deal with forbidden contents (under labels like "extremist" or "paedo") around the world.

      1. Warm Braw

        Re: It's just a test.

        Given that is appears that governments are paying the big media corporations to weaponise propaganda, it only make sense for the big media corporations also to find ways of making money from the process of suppressing it.

      2. Teiwaz

        Re: It's just a test.

        They'll be deploying stuff like the "right to be forgotten". Along with the same technologies that our own and other governments are requiring of them to deal with forbidden contents (under labels like "extremist" or "paedo") around the world.

        Ah, so you don't want to let the fact that Google themselves fought against having to de-link certain search results get in the way of a nice conspiracy proposition.

        They do so dislike having to spend to curate their results unless someone is paying regularly for the privilege, and 'right to be forgotten' isn't a premium subscription service (it would probably count as blackmail if they tried it). Guess the China is worth the exception.

      3. nijam Silver badge

        Re: It's just a test.

        > They'll be deploying stuff like the "right to be forgotten"

        Actually, this is indeed a variant of the "right to be forgotten" - namely the right to have someone/something else "forgotten".

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's just a test.

      The #fakenews AI will need to be agile though - it will frequently have to reverse its position overnight. At least the central planning of the Chinese politburo ensures a certain consistency in what is and is not to be the truth.

  5. ratfox

    Don't be evil

    But... Money...

    1. Palladium

      Re: Don't be evil

      They have been quietly paying those Youtube creators making all those creepy sexual predatory videos targeted to kids and make them popular with their algorithm, so they can rake in that sweet sweet viewcount ad money.

      Oh when the outrage happens, just conveniently blame the creators or "not my fault that you sickos demanded it" or "we can't afford to regulate so many videos online with our hundred billion budget".

      Nope, not evil at all.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Don't be evil

        Alex Jones, what the hell are you doing here?

        I suppose you need another bogey-man now that pizzagate has fizzled out for you.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Google = Evil

    Always has.

  7. Sureo

    Dragonfly

    Should have named it Shark with Laser.

  8. TsVk!

    Modus operandi

    Google provides a censored and skewed search result for everyone else, there's no logical reason for it not to do so for China as well.

    Just another day...

  9. Woza

    As userfriendly put it

    Google employee: when in doubt, remember our three word motto...

    User: publically traded company?

  10. IceC0ld

    1 Co - 2 Faces

    they seem happy to kowtow to the Chinese to give them a crippled form of search, all in the name of the almighty profit ............

    and as far as them getting a 'spine' for pulling out of a US Govt project, they are well entrenched in the west, we couldn't get rid of them if we tried / wanted .....................

    so it isn't any sort of 'test' to pull the nose of the western world

    they have, yet again, failed to promote themselves as a one service for all company

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Remember the motto

    Do know evil

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Remember the motto

      Nosce te ipsum.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I wonder if there will be another mass protest by Google employees like there was over Pentagon drones, or that dude

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    don't do evil

    is for little people. You grow big, your ideals go fuck themselves, because shiny-shiny, my preciousssssss

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bing is there and many others too. I can see why Google are sulking for not being at the party.

    Sad day for democracy, but really, as long as the western governments lick the ground where China has walked, it's bit rich to gang up on Google.

    Call your congress/parliament/assembly/senate representative instead.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Love of Money

    Is the Root of All Evil.

  16. Mr. Moose
    Devil

    Google Vichy

    Collaboration Suite

    Something-Something Evil. Just Do It!

  17. This post has been deleted by its author

  18. Jason Hindle

    Not sure what choice Google has, with China

    Search is just the tip of the Iceberg, for Google. Not being fully in China means other companies (including Microsoft and Apple) get the business for cloud/productivity suites, cloud computing, app/entertainment store and so on. I'm guessing not many Chinese use a Chromebook, when China should be a huge market for these.

    Also, it means Google AI efforts aren't getting training (through vast quantities of data, required for machine learning) from half the world's population. This is the long game, where I think Apple and Microsoft potentially loses the overall war.

    I'm sure Google's shareholders find Google's principles fine in, erm, principle, but China has clearly looked down on Google and said "bitch" because, quite frankly, they can.

    1. walatam

      Re: Not sure what choice Google has, with China

      Google has a choice and that is to not modify their code and therefore not be allowed back in to China. As others have pointed out, commercial considerations have taken precedence over corporate "vaules" ("Do the right thing" is sufficiently nebulous to allow any number of actions, including doing the right thing to increase profit).

      1. Jason Hindle

        Re: Not sure what choice Google has, with China

        When do the right thing collides with shareholder value, I'll give you two guesses as to which of those wins. That's just the world you've got.

        1. JohnFen

          Re: Not sure what choice Google has, with China

          That may be the world we live in, but that doesn't mean we should accept it.

  19. 89724102172714182892114I7551670349743096734346773478647892349863592355648544996312855148587659264921

    Chocolate factory? It's a whorehouse.

  20. RyokuMas
    Big Brother

    Testing, testing...

    "It will be a dark day for internet freedom if Google has acquiesced to China’s extreme censorship rules to gain market access"

    ... but this gives Google a "legitimate" excuse to develop more aggressive censorship systems. People are already accepting Google-controlled ad blocking (probably because it doesn't actually do much... yet) and prioritising pages using their proprietary, non-standard extension of web page markup... next will come "we're not going to show pages containing [insert subject disapproved of by vast majority] in our search results because terrorism/security/[insert popular reason]" and the creep towards Google's open control of what we see will step up to the next level.

    Ignorance is strength! Freedom is slavery!

    1. Teiwaz

      Re: Testing, testing...

      next will come "we're not going to show pages containing [insert subject disapproved of by vast majority] in our search results

      Nonsense.

      Google don't do this, societies (or the ravening insect hive-cleansing mentality of humans) often these days, governments hoping to ingratiate themselves with a popular movement or vocal lunatic fringe with money/power or influence), only occasionally responding to the will of the majority (or the mindless mentality of the mob - take you pick).

      Curating their own search result other than for profit prioritising of results (they are an ad-slinger) is detrimental, 'what if users don't find what they are looking for enough they start using Bing?' would be the worry. Surely prop, non-standard web markup would be ignored by anything other than their own web engines? They've got a grip with the chrome browser just now, but it's just due to convenience.

      Google controlled ad-blocking is merely an attempt to stop ad-blocking from becoming popular enough the majority of the IT-disinterested start to get annoyed enough to get interested.

  21. Harry Stottle

    First, they censored Chinese Searches...

    The mere fact that they're prepared to do this has rendered their entire enterprise fundamentally untrustworthy. (or "even more so" for those who had already lost faith)

    From this point on, until and unless they give us access to their code, we will never know whether, where, when and why similar algorithmic controls are being targeted against us in the "free" West. There are certainly many western governments, and many authoritarian advocates on both the right and left, who would welcome "search censorship" with open arms

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: First, they censored Chinese Searches...

      Why "from this point on"?

      Facebook and Google may not be 100% responsible for Trump, but they certainly facilitated him.

      1. JohnFen

        Re: First, they censored Chinese Searches...

        You don't need to invoke Trump. There are tons of examples of why Google is fundamentally untrustworthy that have nothing to do with elections.

        1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: First, they censored Chinese Searches...

          But do note that G has more-or-less openly talked about influencing elections in third-world countries.

          And they were caught suppressing negative search auto-completes of one candidate in 2016, as reported here.

  22. Neoc

    Wrong target of outrage

    It amuses me how people are biased. Don't get me wrong: I think China has terrible laws when it comes to censorship. But that's just the point: in China, they're LAWS. Which means if you want to have a presence there, you have to obey their laws. ALL of them, not just the ones you happen to agree with.

    Case in point, there are a lot of things which are illegal in the USA which are perfectly valid outside of it - I'm thinking of laws on legalised prostitution, age of consent, drinking age, drugs, etc... what if Google started offering some of those items to the US public? How quickly would the same people then rise up against Google for not obeying the US laws?

    You want to change what's happening, go after the CAUSE: China's overbearing censorship laws. Don't go after the companies that, correctly, obey them when it that country.

    1. JohnFen

      Re: Wrong target of outrage

      I half agree with you. This is true: "Which means if you want to have a presence there, you have to obey their laws."

      But I think the right thing for Google (and the other companies) to do is to not have a presence there. Being willing to do business in a place indicates that you're OK with the laws of that place, and says something important about you and what you value.

      "what if Google started offering some of those items to the US public?"

      Ignoring legality, that would be a very weird thing for Google to do since it's so far away from the businesses they're actually in. And yes, I would object.

      However, I also object when Google censors its search results, even for things that are illegal. Doing that isn't OK in the US any more than it's OK in China.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wrong target of outrage

      In China it's not really about laws as Westerners understand them - one of the keys to the Communist mindset is that the law is whatever we say it is today.

      1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

        Re: Wrong target of outrage

        I would say that the evolution of Black Lives Matter pretty well demonstrates that the Ministry of Truth is quite functional in segments of US politics, and has been for years.

        Nevermind our twitterer-in-chief.

  23. nijam Silver badge

    Censorship is a tool of corrupt government. That is to say, government.

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