back to article Wires, chips, and LEDs: US trade bigwigs detail Chinese kit that's going to cost a lot more

The Trump administration is moving forward with its plans to implement tariffs on Chinese goods coming into America. On Friday, it published a list of products totaling $34bn that will be subjected to a 25 per cent charge to importers, and another $16bn worth of goods that could be added to the list. The US Trade …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    wireless cables?

    *head asplodes*

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: wireless cables?

      "individually shielded optical wireless cables"

      Could you fit any more oxymorons into a single phrase?

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        Re: wireless cables?

        "individually shielded optical wireless cables"

        For optimum digital audio video clarity, the shielding should be 24carat gold plated and the wireless cables oxygen free. They cost an arm and a leg already without these tariffs. It's a good thing I don't have any children, else they'll have to go without essentials as I am saving up for a set of these

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge

          Re: wireless cables?

          I have a gold-plated optical TOSlink cable.

          I'm sure the gold makes the photons sound better.

          (It was cheaper than the normal ones)

      2. Richard Plinston

        Re: wireless cables?

        >> "individually shielded optical wireless cables"

        > Could you fit any more oxymorons into a single phrase?

        Optical cables do not use wire, they use glass fibres, therefore 'wireless'.

        Of course optical cable could also have [metal] wires included, for example: to carry power*, but they wouldn't be 'wireless'.

        * a wire could be added simply to defeat the tariff.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: wireless cables?

          You actually couldn't add a wire to defeat the tariff. It's quite a comprehensive list.

          Incidentally, did anyone actually see "individually shielded optical wireless cables" in either list? I didn't. The lists are timestamped 12 hours before this article was posted. I guess you've all been trolled.

      3. This post has been deleted by its author

      4. Allan George Dyer

        Re: wireless cables?

        @AC: "Could you fit any more oxymorons into a single phrase?"

        Challenge accepted:

        individually twisted shielded radio-frequency optical wireless monofilament cables

        1. msknight

          Re: wireless cables?

          I'm tempted to report this post for abuse. My one remaining brain cell can't take this kind of thing on a Monday morning!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: wireless cables?

      That's like my patented usb laptop charger, you plug it into the usb on the laptop and the laptop runs forever.

      1. GIRZiM
        Joke

        Re: patented usb laptop charger

        Ooh!

        Where can I get one!?

      2. P. Lee

        Re: wireless cables?

        >you plug it into the USB port ...and the laptop runs forever

        You bought one of those silly new MacBooks?

  2. harmjschoonhoven
    Mushroom

    Every one

    may begin a war at his pleasure, but cannot so finish it. Niccolò Machiavelli, The Discourses, Second Book, Ch. X (AD 1531).

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Every one

      The most famous is don't fight a land war in Asia

      But second to that is - don't start a trade war in an election year against a centrally planned economy that can pick and choose its targets

      1. GrumpyOldBloke

        Re: Every one

        Perhaps the third one is that you can't run trade surpluses if you are the global reserve currency.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Every one

          Perhaps the third one is that you can't run trade surpluses if you are the global reserve currency.

          That would be my biggest overall concern for the US. These isolationist practices have long term consequences that go deeper than "I only read comic books' Trump can fathom, the most important one being that it teaches trade partners that they're not partners and can no longer trust the US not to screw them over for a quick buck.

          Trump seems to forget that the money supply isn't endless when you start to borrow, and at some point the interest is due (something that Jared will be facing in September for 666 Fifth Avenue, which will be entertaining IMHO). By isolating the US in many ways, he encourages other nations to remove their dependency on the US economy, which in turns removes the "too big to fail" leverage the US has over others to force a continuation of its horrific borrowing. China has been playing the long game for decades, and they now have their currency up as reserve currency too, and they have already been doing a Saddam in that they have traded energy without involving the dollar (they bought gas from Russia in renminbi).

          The whole house of cards will collapse if they go on like this, and none of the idiots surrounding Trump seems to know or care.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Every one

              We're also making electronics (music gear). These tariffs will impact our components, circuit boards assembled in China, and Chinese-made assembly equipment. Judging by the tariff list, I think every major manufacturing industry is similarly affected.

              That's not as bad as it sounds. A 25% tariff on dirt-cheap components is still cheap. Our more expensive components come from Taiwan and other countries anyway. I wish we could get more US-made components. US assembly, at least, is an option, which we're considering due to overseas shipping costs and hassles. We may have to increase prices a tad, but so will our competitors, and all the jobs coming back to the US will help our customers absorb the increase.

              I worry more about the effect on China. The tariffs will put downward pressure on their prices, contrary to our interests. The disparity could spiral out of control unless their government does something (which they may not want to) to counteract it. But as others have said, this action is long overdue. Whatever the consequences, I blame the Chinese, and the past three US administrations for their inaction.

            2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: Every one

              "Putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea - so, moving functions such as fabrication plants, steel production, etc., back to your own country will mitigate the risk."

              That might be what governments want to do, but in practice what happens is that businesses move their outsourced manufacturing to the next cheap labour market rather than bring them "home" where cost will rise too much in the longer term, even if there are short term incentives.

              1. Sanguma

                Re: Every one outsauced

                but in practice what happens is that businesses move their outsourced manufacturing to the next cheap labour market rather than bring them "home"

                From what I recall, the PRC were eager to move the lower-class manufacturing jobs to various stable African states for that very reason; only the Global War Of Terror aka the Gumbo War of Terror destabilized a good many of those previously stable African states and now they can't.

                It's beginning to look a lot like ... well, this is a first! Words fail me.

          2. GIRZiM

            Re: none of the idiots surrounding Trump seems to know or care.

            Or perhaps they've invested bigly in China?

            After all, who wouldn't want their stuff to sell for even more after they've still manufactured it for less than in the U.S.? *

            * The Chinese aren't stupid and won't make their stuff so expensive that it isn't still cheaper to get it manufactured there - it just won't be as cheap as before.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Every one

            This is part of the Trump/Bannon/Putin agenda. I don't know if OPOTUS really understands the ramifications of his actions, but the other two certainly do.

            I hate to appear to agree with Trump and his cohort in any way but, the developed economies do need to adjust trade deficiencies with the developing economies caused by the intense greed of the wealthy in the moving of jobs (factories) overseas. That should be a better planned objective. Developed nations should be trading with nations that have similar wages, healthcare, and vacation time for the employees. A side effect of that would be that few would be able to trade with the US because of the direction that it is moving.

            As to IP theft by foreign Governments when production of high tech. products is moved overseas; especially, to underdeveloped economies. Did anyone really expect that to be otherwise? I've always found this to be amusing.

            We live in interesting times.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Every one

          Perhaps the third one is that you can't run trade surpluses if you are the global reserve currency.

          On the other hand, you can run trade deficits almost indefinitely - until people find a different reserve currency. The US government should study history a bit more, and they might see some parallels in how the dollar supplanted the pound as the global reserve.

          Then they need to additionally consider that although there's an assumption that there has to be a single alternative (and thus that unless there's a better candidate, the existing reserve remains strong) with the evolution of technology that may not hold true. Which really ought to worry the US government.

      2. MonkeyCee

        Re: Every one

        "The most famous is don't fight a land war in Asia"

        That's the second :) first is "don't march on Moscow"

        Although "don't fight a trade war with Asia" is a pretty good modern take :)

        As mentioned elsewhere, does anyone know how you can have both the world reserve currency and maintain a trade surplus at the same time?

  3. CheesyTheClown

    There goes buying from the U.S.

    My company resold $750 million of products manufactured in the US last year. Already, these products are at a high premium compared to French and Chinese products. They are a tough sell and it’s almost entirely based on price.

    Those items are built mostly from steal, chips, LEDs and wires.

    Unless those US companies move their manufacturing outside of the US, we’ll be forced to switch vendors, otherwise the price hikes will be a problem for us. I know that the exported products will have refunds on the duties leaving the US, but the vendors cannot legally charge foreigners less than they charge Americans for these products. So, we’ll have to feel the penalty.

    So, I expect to see an email from leadership this coming week telling us to propose alternatives to American products.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There goes buying from the U.S.

      > Those items are built mostly from steal

      But the US thinks it's the Chinese who are doing the stealing...

    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Mushroom

      Re: There goes buying from the U.S.

      Unless those US companies move their manufacturing outside of the US,

      "Britain is Open for Business" - says a Mrs May, from London.

      Translation: Cheap labour, business friendly employment laws, tax-haven friendly, you name it, we'll bend over

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There goes buying from the U.S.

      How much hike?

      Components

      Labor

      Assembly

      Overheads

      Profit

      There's only a tariff on the components.

  4. Mystic Megabyte
    FAIL

    War, what is it good for?

    History, if we have any, will show that Trump was the most useless* president ever elected. Next week he will probably leave NATO, "too expensive", and Putins work will be done.

    * for legal reasons other descriptions have been omitted

    1. MiguelC Silver badge

      Re: War, what is it good for?

      useless is not the same as prejudicial...

    2. MonkeyCee

      Re: War, what is it good for?

      "Next week he will probably leave NATO"

      That was actually the biggest WTF moment for me at the G7. The Russia stuff has some basis in realpolitik, since they are a world power, so ignoring them doesn't make their nukes and armed forces go away.

      But when the US president says "I don't see the point in NATO" and "why would we defend another NATO member" to the heads of the state of other nations it indicates that either he really has no fucking idea of how the world works (which is pretty scary) or that he genuinely believes that the US interests are not served by promoting freedom and democracy or supporting like minded allies.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: War, what is it good for?

        "why would we defend another NATO member" .....

        It really means "why would we defend another NATO member, that isn't spending any money on defense, and is just expecting the benefit of NATO membership without the cost. "

        To put that in context, according to the German news outlet Spiegel, all but four of Germany's 128 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets are unavailable for combat missions.

        The statement is basically a warning that countries which don't spend the Nato required minimum on defence could find themselves effectively no longer part of the club.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: War, what is it good for?

          The statement is basically a warning that countries which don't spend the Nato required minimum on defence could find themselves effectively no longer part of the club.

          Or following what happened to Ukraine they could decide that it's much cheaper to just build nukes.

          Japan and Korea obviously need them to protect against N. Korea if the USA is no longer going to be a player in the area. Japan has lots of plutonium producing reactors, if only they had the advanced machining technology, supercomputer simulation and lots of nuclear physicists. ditto S. Korea, ditto Germany.

          That shouldn't worry China or Russia.

          Of course with Samsung, Toshiba and Seimens all mass producing low cost high quality nukes there will soon be a market for all Nato countries to buy them for a fraction of the 2% of GDP the USA wants them to spend on F35s

      2. Hans 1

        Re: War, what is it good for?

        I think chat all this boils down to is Trump either has forgotten that the US has a reserve currency OR he des not understand what that means.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: War, what is it good for?

        or that he genuinely believes that the US interests are not served by promoting freedom and democracy or supporting like minded allies.

        "Promoting freedom and democracy" - as in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Palestine...? That was just newspeak bullshit.

        The point of NATO is to sell more F-35's.

  5. Elmer Phud

    Tiny hands find huge feet to shoot.

    1. Sanguma

      Tiny hands find huge feet to shoot.

      Preceded by: big feet find even bigger mouth, opened wide.

      The Chump must love the taste of his own toes.

  6. James 51

    Trumps tantrum in response to the Canadian Prime Minister saying he would look after Canadians and there interest show him for the bully he is (I do not think the explanation for Kim's benefit are true). The warning of an extra $16 billions in tarifs of as Trump sees it, they (the Chinese) stand up for themselves smacks of a bully saying stop hitting yourself as they grab your fists and start hitting you. What is galling is that Trump is right on IP theft, protectionist barriers and such, I just wish that he was equal to the task.

  7. heyrick Silver badge

    Technology and innovation are America’s greatest economic assets

    Yeah, remind me... Didn't my iPad Mini say on the back or the box something like: Proudly designed in California. Made in China ?

    There's your problem right there.

    It's really hard to have any sympathy with Trump's point of view when you realise that it would have been pretty easy to have American stuff made in America and the IP would never have to have left the country (and would have to have been actually stolen), but no, the shareholders wanted more money and the management never gave a shit about such things as employee rights and child workers, so all this important IP was willingly dumped in the hands of the Chinese in return for making stuff at Chinese prices (to be sold at American prices, kerching!).

    And now the guy in charge is crying?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      try doing business in china...

      Actually however much I dislike trump... this is actually well overdue

      The state owns the companies in china and refuse to allow access to the Chinese domestic market without at least 50% share in a "joint venture" which makes the profits.

      Alternatively Chinese take over companies then shift manufacture to their home (fair enough), whats unfair is they deploy capital lent from the state at 0% interest rate to do this.

      since there is a trade imbalance then actually I don't see what the Chinese are going to do...

      target farmers it seems... which quite frankly is simple to counter, like the EU you give the farmers subsidies...

      https://qz.com/1242652/china-tariffs-the-complete-list-of-128-affected-good-class-of-goods/

      this is not a bad thing as long as the U.S.A. does a good job protecting ALL its markets...

      1. Nick Kew

        Re: try doing business in china...

        Trump's accusations might be more credible if the sanctions operated less of a scattergun approach.

        China? Well also the rest of the world. EU, Canada, and Mexico lumped together: do we really all do those Evil Things? Trump must be the only one marching in step.

        Mind you, the rest of the world does itself no favours by failing to work together on this. EU/Canada/Mexico lumped together because they thought they could be exempted as Good Guys.

        Divided we fall.

  8. Sanguma

    Wot-wot-wot?

    Speaking facetiously, as is my wont, I get the feeling that the US is running scared. This is a list of areas where they can't compete with the PRC on the open market, so they run and dig themselves a little hole and plonk their head in it.

    It's also a milestone, informing the PRC that they've succeeded in spooking the US. And so the US isn't going to compete any longer. Pity that. I like a good competition.

    It is not even the beginning of the end. but it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wot-wot-wot?

      "the US is running scared"

      Yes they are. The are a superpower that is in danger of relying on another power for the basics that underpin their economy. Once that happens they cease to be a superpower.

  9. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    Hey, America. We make most of your s**t at Chinese prices, which your companies sell

    At US prices.

    Want to bitch about pricing.

    Do so at a stockholders meeting.

    In California.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What is the end game here? Clearly Trump must be doing this for a reason. It's going to hit the farm/bible belt once China put their tariffs on which is Trumps core support group. Unless he really is just a moron, I just don't get it.

    1. Nick Kew

      Well, the current goal is mid-term elections. Give his voters as much Feelgood as possible ahead of them, readjust afterwards. The Great Success with Kim Jong Trump was probably the biggest such stunt.

      If any of this nonsense goes on longer than that, the world has a much more serious problem.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Mushroom

        ...the world has a much more serious problem.

        Yeah, usually.

        People believe things that aren't true and then act on those beliefs.

        ka-boom.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      It's going to hit the farm/bible belt once China put their tariffs on which is Trumps core support group.

      Foreigners are attacking outr farmers , so anybody who doesn't vote for us is a pro-China traitor

      (ps please ignore Russia)

  11. xehpuk

    When the government has such a huge budget deficit it's almost impossible to not have trade deficit also. The money must come from somewhere. But its always convenient to blame someone else for your problems.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Trump, ever hear the quote :

    "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

    ?

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Of course not. That sentence has never appeared in any of the comics he reads.

  13. Bronek Kozicki
    Devil

    Treasury notes

    Here is the thing - China is, by far, the largest buyer of American debt. The interest of which is tightly coupled to price, which can be manipulated by someone with a sufficiently large long position - like China for example. If things go much further, Chinese could imaginably ruin American economy by flooding the interest rates market with Treasury notes, which would push the yields up. It would cost them an arm and leg, but who knows - for a centrally managed economy it might be just doable, especially if aimed only at the weeks where the impact would be the biggest i.e. re-issuance of more Treasury debt. With the interest rates adjusted to match the inflated yields.

    1. TheVogon

      Re: Treasury notes

      "Chinese could imaginably ruin American economy by flooding the interest rates market with Treasury notes, which would push the yields up. It would cost them an arm and leg"

      And America could simply say devalue the US Dollar by a factor of ten making that that debt worth much less.

      1. Steve Todd

        Re: Treasury notes

        @TheVogon - and doing that would instantly remove the dollar as the worlds reserve currency and skyrocket the rates the US government has to pay for bonds. There is no simple fix for this, no matter what Trump would have you believe.

      2. Sanguma

        Re: Treasury notes

        The PRC could - and maybe should - donate the US Treasury bills to the London City Mission for use as toilet paper in the homeless shelters, and derive a great deal of charitable satisfaction from doing so.

        At least they'd be used honestly.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    IP

    Nearly all US tech IP isn't registered/held in the US anyway.

    It's held in places like Bermuda and the Caymans.

    So enough with the whining.

  15. EveryTime

    The trade situation is complicated.

    What isn't complicated is the selection of goods that are subject to a tariff. It reads like a gift list for the politically powerful and savvy. "Sentator, remember that campaign contribution? Here is the list of very specific items we would like on the tariff schedule."

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I don't think so. It lists very specific categories and corresponding umbrella categories, so as not to leave anything out. I believe the target is simply manufacturing in general, which is the thing that China has stolen out from under us.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "which is the thing that China has stolen out from under us."

        Strange definition of steal. Jobs and Cook (for instance) did not exactly watch as their iPhone manufacturing was taken from them and moved to China. No, they enthusiastically got Pegatron and Foxconn to take over the manufacturing, because cheaper.

        If there was a theft of US jobs, whatever that means, it was carried out by US capitalists.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "which is the thing that China has stolen out from under us."

          China took American jobs and industry, our source of wealth. How is that not theft?

          Sure, Steve Jobs took advantage, but he didn't force China to disregard human rights and the environment in order to corner the global market. And it's amusing to see the same people who condemned those actions siding with China now. China sure as hell doesn't give a damn about you.

          1. isogen74

            Re: "which is the thing that China has stolen out from under us."

            Western populations have given this to China. Since the late 70s marketing based on price and maximizing shareholder profits became the only game in town.

            Stop buying stuff made in China and corporations will soon learn what their customer base values.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "which is the thing that China has stolen out from under us."

            "China took American jobs and industry, our source of wealth. How is that not theft?"

            You can still look that up because China hasn't taken your legal system. That's one thing the US has that nobody else wants.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        "which is the thing that China has stolen out from under us."

        Stolen? Hardly. It was willingly given, contacts signed, shareholder approval given and everything.

    2. Richard Plinston

      > "Sentator, remember that campaign contribution? Here is the list of very specific items we would like on the tariff schedule."

      """Hilton pointed out on his show, "The Next Revolution," that Ross (Wilbur Ross, Commerce Secretary) co-founded a shipping firm, Nautical Bulk Holdings, that ships steel from South Korea, which is one of the countries that has received an exemption from President Trump’s steel tariffs."""

      http://thehill.com/homenews/media/391646-fox-news-host-calls-out-wilbur-ross-over-conflicts-of-interest-on-investments

      It is all about corruption. Trump is merely the most corrupt.

  16. 89724102372714582892524I9755670349743096734346773478647852349863592355648544996313855148583659264921

    Crazy old people i.e. old people, should not exist

    Logans Run.

  17. Trollslayer
    Mushroom

    US hypocrisy

    The US is the biggest hypocrite on this subject.

    They steal any technology they can get away with, hide subsidies for favoured industries/companies and, just like now,

    During the Reagan era there was COCOM, a coordinating committee on technology export with the idea of making it difficult for foreign manufacturers to get certain parts thus protecting US manufacturers of high tech products.

    Except, as usual, someone got clever. I designed a product using 4000 series CMOS and there was a standard shift register and suddenly I couldn't buy the RCA part without filling in piles of forms. Solution - buy the same Toshiba part.

    This also meant a number of US equipment manufacturers had problems exporting because straightforward products used COCOM controlled parts.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: US hypocrisy

      The US is the biggest hypocrite on lots of subjects, like that icon you chose.

    2. Sanguma

      Re: US hypocrisy

      You should be still able to get a copy of Eduardo Galleano's The Open Veins of Latin America, which contains some interesting historical details about how the US (and before that the UK) destroyed Latin American attempts to set up their own manufacturing sectors.

      Very enlightening. Apparently human rights don't apply to Latin America, as far as the US sees it.

  18. DenTheMan

    My precious....

    With China having a monopoly on many a precious metal, guess what is going to happen?

    Someone more knowledgeable can tell us what may soon cease in the US.

    1. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

      Re: My precious....

      Lithium, tantalum and several rare earths are mostly bought from China, iirc.

      China cheats. It is destroying UK manufacturing at a rate of knots, as Chinese factories get cheaper electric, and the postage is massively subsidised which is why everything gets free postage, and then, bizarrely, nothing from China gets stopped for taxes and duty!

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: My precious....

        China cheats. It is destroying UK manufacturing at a rate of knots

        Have you thought of joining some sort of unified trading block with some of your other European allies?

        Then you could present a single market to China and get much better trade protection and negotiating power.

        Just a thought

    2. BoldMan

      Re: My precious....

      China does not have a monopoly on rare earths - at least not an EXPLOITABLE monopoly as they discovered a few years ago when they tried to push the prices up. Suddenly all the mothballed Australian mines were now worth starting up again and miraculously* the price fell again!

      This was explained in some of the most informative sets of articles Tim Worstell wrote for EL Reg back in the day.

      * the miraculous law of supply and demand

  19. Jonathan Richards 1

    Request for information

    TFA talks at length about

    > a list of products totaling $34bn

    and I'm sure that thirty-four thousand million USD1 is a headline-grabbing amount of money, but it's not clear to me what the number refers to. I speculated that buying 1 unit of everything on the list FOB Shanghai might total to $34E9, but that doesn't seem possible. Does the USA import $34 billion dollars-worth of products on this list over some unspecified time period? If so is it the amount paid to China, or the value of the goods sold and used in the USA?

    25% of $34E9 is $8.5E9. Has the US Treasury shared with the US electorate exactly (or even vaguely) what it will do with this extra income?

    Perhaps some of it will need to be invested in anti-smuggling operations: some of the list items are clearly high value in units of $/kg, and 25% tariffs are worth avoiding.

    1I suppose that they mean USD and not HKD!

  20. RobertsonCR7
    Angel

    Things won't be spanning out very well

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