back to article Scratch Earth-killer asteroid off your list of existential threats

NASA's fourth release of data from its NEOWISE asteroid-hunter may well come as a relief, as it's again failed to spot a rock worthy of Bruce Willis' attention. The new data dump, (downloadable here), brings the mission's total to 29,246 objects. Those objects were observed in the four years since NASA mission scientists …

  1. Chris G

    "after a two-year mission seeking extremely dim objects,"

    They clearly never looked at the company I work for.

    There must be millions of objects lurking in the Oort cloud that could as a result of a collision there be diverted to the inner solar system to present a threat.

    We need sentinels out past the asteroid belt looking for incoming.

    1. DJO Silver badge

      We need sentinels out past the asteroid belt looking for incoming.

      The asteroid belt is not the seething mess of rocks as beloved of SF film makers, the average distance between rocks is 600,000 miles which is quite a distance.

      Now how many sentinels would be needed to cover the belt?

      The belt is about 3AU out from the sun which gives a sphere with a surface area of 4π x 3AU^2

      An AU is about 93 million miles so the total area is about 100,000,000,000,000,000 square miles.

      You are going to need a LOT of sentinels.

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
        Happy

        DJO,

        What kind of rubbish calculations are those? Volume should be measured in Olympic swimming pools and area in Waleses. We'll let you off using the Bulgarian Airbag because Space is Big. Really Big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean...

        Has anyone got a piece of fairy cake?

        1. BebopWeBop

          Can do you a really strong vup of tea (Yorkshire of course) - would that help?

        2. Chris G

          I am a firm believer in "Scientists have calculated that the chances of something so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.”

          My reason for suggesting sentinels beyond the Asteroid belt id simply for a clearer view outward and sufficient warning to 'Do all those things we never had time for before........ kissing our arse goodbye.'(Or phoning Bruce Willis' successor.)

        3. DJO Silver badge

          Volume should be measured in Olympic swimming pools and area in Waleses.

          Mea culpa.

          The surface area of a sphere centred on Sol and reaching to the asteroid belt is about 12,000,000,000,000 Welsh area units.

          For London based readers it's about 150,000,000,000,000,000 times the surface area of Putney High Street.

          1. DJO Silver badge

            More mea culpa - I screwed up the maths, those figures are for a sphere with a radius of 1AU.

            To get the right figures multiply everything by roughly 8, so it's

            100,000,000,000,000 Welsh area units - or -

            1,200,000,000,000,000,000 Putney High Streets.

            Or in a more obscure unit: 9.8 x 10^17 miles^2

            1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
              Happy

              DJO,

              Thank you. I am most grateful.

              Unfortunately I now need to go to Putney High Street, as I am unable to visualise 1 single unit of PHS - let alone 1.2 qunitillion of them.

              However, due to its obviously huge asteroid strike risk (otherwise why would you mention it) I am also afraid to go.

              Therefore I think I'm going to stick my head back under the duvet, and hope that it's both monster and asteroid proof.

      2. Ugotta B. Kiddingme

        Re: We need sentinels out past the asteroid belt looking for incoming.

        Yes. However, even if we do put the requisite number of sentinels in the described area, that alone is insufficient. We must also develop the technology to eliminate or at least mitigate an incoming threat. Otherwise, knowing that one is coming only affords us the opportunity to place heads between knees and kiss our arses goodbye - which admittedly does in and of itself have some value.

        1. Pen-y-gors

          Re: We need sentinels out past the asteroid belt looking for incoming.

          You're missing a trick... we include a lot of fuel with each of the sentinels. Then when they spot something on a collision course they ram it - which should alter the orbit sufficiently for it to miss. And if it's caught far enough out it'll only need a fairly small tap to make the difference. Obviously we'll need a few spare sentinels to fill the gap afterwards.

          <flame-trigger mode on>It won't be cheap, but probably cheaper than Brexit! </>

          1. Mark 85

            Re: We need sentinels out past the asteroid belt looking for incoming.

            You're missing a trick... we include a lot of fuel with each of the sentinels. Then when they spot something on a collision course they ram it - which should alter the orbit sufficiently for it to miss. And if it's caught far enough out it'll only need a fairly small tap to make the difference.

            We'll just have to make damn sure that the "nudge" pushes the incoming away from Earth and doesn't accidentally turn a near-miss (I hate that term) into a bullseye.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: We need sentinels out past the asteroid belt looking for incoming.

            Even if it were possible (someone beat me to the "space is really big" part of the argument) what good would such sentinels do? An object with an eccentric orbit taking it to the Oort Cloud will be moving pretty fast as it approaches the asteroid belt - if it was found to be on a collision course with Earth it would be far too late for us to do anything about it. The sentinels wouldn't have nearly enough time to alter the course of anything big enough to really hurt us.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: We need sentinels out past the asteroid belt looking for incoming.

          @Ugotta B. Kiddingme "However, even if we do put the requisite number of sentinels in the described area, that alone is insufficient. We must also develop the technology to eliminate or at least mitigate an incoming threat. "

          I'd guess that the engineering difficulty and expense of filling interplanetary space with enough incoming rock sensors to give good coverage of the asteroid belt and beyond would be similar or greater than the difficulty and cost of developing the means to deal with a big incoming rock.

          I've long thought that all we really need is detection systems which can give adequate warning time of a big incoming rock - "adequate" in this case meaning "long enough for those holding the purse strings to get the message and throw enough money at the problem soon enough to develop and send a mission to deal with it".

          I mean, there are lots of ideas about how to deal with big incoming rocks. There is also, ooh, roughly 70 years of space engineering development under humanity's collective belt by now (a V2/A4 passed the Kármán line in 1944; the USA far exceeded that altitude in 1948) including space-going proper nuclear power reactors (the Soviets flew some), long-duration crewed missions, on-orbit repair and assembly experience, a large global aerospace production capacity, and reliable heavy-lift launchers.

          The Yanks even worked on a nuclear reactor powered rocket (NERVA). The designs could be dusted off and developed into modern flight hardware - I'm thinking that getting to and shifting a big rock quickly would take nuclear propulsion.

          Yes, normally, you'd not want to run the risk of blowing up a nuclear reactor when attempting to put it into space, but if the alternative is species extinction, minds might well change.

          The job of dealing with a seriously threatening incoming rock doesn't seem impossible - just difficult and expensive and I reckon getting the funding to develop the required technology would need a clear and present danger.

          The bigger the incoming rock, the longer warning we'd need - but then again, bigger rocks are easier to spot.

          Whether or not we'd currently get long enough warning and quick enough funding is anyone's guess.

      3. Agamemnon

        An AU is about 93 million miles so the total area is about 100,000,000,000,000,000 square miles.

        You are going to need a LOT of sentinels.

        That sounds really good for the economy!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Objects in the Oort cloud aren't very close to one another - they're tens or even hundreds of millions of kilometres apart, so collisions aren't very likely. The biggest perturbations come from the approach and retreat of neighbouring stars as the Sun bobs its way around the galactic core.

      The other good news is that the Oort cloud is a long way away - its inner edge is somewhere north of 2000 astronomical units from the Sun, which means objects out there move very slowly and take tens of thousands of years to travel into the Inner Solar system.

  2. Dave 126 Silver badge

    > Scratch Earth-killer asteroid off your list of existential threats

    An existential threat is a threat to the existence of humanity, not merely a threat to the existence of Dave. I might have another five decades left to me, but hopefully humanity will be around for far longer - so there's plenty of scope for the orbit of a bloody great space rock to become disturbed.

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      "An existential threat is a threat to the existence of humanity,"

      It it's a threat to the existence of me, I'll let it qualify.

      A rock doesn't have to be particularly large to cause fairly substantial issues without being an extinction-level event. Craterhunter's cometary fragmentation multiple airburst hypothesis(*) is not only plausible but would result in the effective destruction of civilisation if it happened today.

      We still only see the vast majority of near-earth stuff AFTER it's been past us coming outwards from the sun and is illuminated from behind. Like the Moon, almost all the objects that are out there (even comets) range from "dark charcoal" to "black cat in a coal mine"

      (*) craterhunter.wordpress.com - an interesting set of pages.

      1. Pen-y-gors

        @Alan Brown

        almost all the objects that are out there (even comets) range from "dark charcoal" to "black cat in a coal mine"

        So $DEITY is building stealth rocks now? Is that fair?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Heck, the number of objects that appear in the Minor Planet Digest that are detected and classified with under two to three days before closest approach is quite disturbing. Phased array radars at L4 and L5 would be useful although quite expensive. Now what to do when you have your existential crisis is another matter, something that Russia is attempting to address all on their own. Chelyabinsk was their wake-up call.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Black cat in a coal mine

        No problem, we place an order on Amazon for 53 trillion gallons of white paint, and a sprayer that can cover 1 billion km^3 per minute...

    2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Numeracy - Boring, but useful

      "An existential threat is a threat to the existence of humanity, not merely a threat to the existence of Dave."

      On that basis, and bearing in mind that we are already far more advanced than any species of dinosaur or trilobite, there have been no existentially threatening events in the last billion years or so. You don't need NASA to tell you that this makes it pretty unlikely that we are about to be hit by one now. You also shouldn't need an economist to tell you that any cost that probably doesn't need to be paid in the next 100 years or so is better deferred until later.

      So whilst all this is interesting and fun, it isn't important.

  3. eldakka
    Coat

    > NASA's fourth release of data from its NEOWISE asteroid-hunter may well come as a relief, as it's again failed to spot a rock worthy of Bruce Willis' attention.

    I'd think Bruce Willis would be breathing a sigh of relief, as he's getting a bit old for this shit.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Happy

      Well if Clint Eastwood can do it...

  4. eldakka

    > Scratch Earth-killer asteroid off your list of existential threats

    Bet that's what the dinosaur astronomers said!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      dinosaur astronomers..

      ..tried to warn the others, but the dinosaur politicians cut all funding while typing HOAX!!1 on whatever thing similar to twitter they used with their tiny arms and hands.

      1. Mark 85

        Re: dinosaur astronomers..

        The Trumpasurus then?

  5. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Michael Hoffmann Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: All very well...

      Put a young Asian girl and a washed up cop on it and re-direct it to Venus?

    2. BebopWeBop

      Re: All very well...

      I am more concerned about 'Great Evil' flaming red

  6. Michael Hoffmann Silver badge
    Boffin

    n-body problem?

    Isn't this the n-body problem from hell and therefore unpredictable? Tens of thousand of these rocks floating about nudging each other around, how would they calculate which one may get the "wrong" nudge?

    This isn't Snooker.

    1. OnlyMortal

      Re: n-body problem?

      No, it's planet pool. Best get Craig Charles in the loop.

      1. imanidiot Silver badge

        Re: n-body problem?

        Unless they get REALLY close together most of those rocks probably have negligible influence on one another. Though it LOOKS like a swirling mass of dots here, in reality they are thousands of miles apart. Something the size of Jupiter is going to have a heck of a lot more to say on where these things go.

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: n-body problem?

          "Unless they get REALLY close together most of those rocks probably have negligible influence on one another."

          For values of "really" that boil down to "collisions"

    2. Andrew Commons

      Re: n-body problem?

      Well, yes, but for very large values of 'n'.

      See 'Oumuamua to estimate how large that might be.

    3. aeonturnip
      Angel

      Re: n-body problem?

      True, but luckily they're mostly all going around in the same direction in a flattish disk, so their approach velocities are fairly small. The solar system is sufficiently old that (hopefully!) almost all the rogues ones have been either smashed to bit, ejected from the solar system or eaten by Jupiter which has been a very handy guardian angel for Earth over the years. Thanks Jupiter. Thupiter.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: n-body problem?

        Yep. There is 1 Jupiter, 2 planets of a size worth considering closer to the sun than us, and an asteroid belt... the Oort cloud etc. It has structure, it has a flow and properties we are quite aware of.

        It would seem anything too deadly is already past. The gravity of the situation ;) does not allow random, freak "accidents".

        It's a bit worrying about supernova going off in our local neighbourhood... and not realising there are no candidates close enough! By the time supernova would be a problem for our planet, we would not need to worry about them. Same for earth changing asteroids/meteors/comets.

  7. knarf

    You never hear the rock that kills you

    or is that bullets....

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Coat

      Re: You never hear the rock that kills you

      In space, no-one can hear the scree...

      OK, that was bad. I'm truly ashamed. I'll get my coat.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Green dots = OUR ships.

    Red dots = THEIR ships.

    Getting this wrong is a courts martial offence.

  9. Swiss Anton

    A close shave a week and a bit ago, it could have started WW3.

    On Sunday the 15th April, a 50m-110m rock 2018 GE3 whizzed past the Earth at 1/2 the distance to the Moon's orbit. If it had hit, the estimated blast would have been about 15 megatons. On its own, not an extinction event, but what with the bad vibes in Syria that weekend, if it had hit, it could have spooked some president (take your pick!) into pressing the big red button. The thing is, this rock wasn't spotted until 20 hours before its closest approach, not long to forewarn the authorities.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A close shave a week and a bit ago, it could have started WW3.

      I would assume anyone with an ability to press said button, can also confirm the neutron (or other means) detection to confirm if it is an earthquake, meteor or normal explosive device.

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: A close shave a week and a bit ago, it could have started WW3.

        It is also an established historical fact (because it happened to some Russian bloke) that the occurence of just one event that looks like a nuclear attack is sufficiently implausible that people go and check before hitting the launch button.

    2. Claptrap314 Silver badge

      Re: A close shave a week and a bit ago, it could have started WW3.

      20 hours is a very long time when you are talking about DEFCON-changing events. Furthermore, I would be shocked if there was not some sort of hotline from the detection center to a colonel somewhere to inform them of the situation. Finally, I don't believe that US nukes can be launched until DEFCON 2.

      So, not really.

  10. handleoclast

    Nothing to worry about

    Concluded dinosaur astronomers, shortly before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event.

  11. Agamemnon
    Meh

    I don't mean to be pedantic (I'm a RegReader so that's bullshit) ...

    The Chelyabinsk meteor did NOT <quote> Impact over the city of Chelyabinsk </quote>.

    Moving at 19km/sec (I'm American, and I prefer metric, thanks) it finally gave in to it's pressure wave and our atomosphere and "Exploded over the city of Chelyabinsk".

    Some bits impacted the forest, sure. If you like you could attempt to be even more pedantic and say it "impacted our atmosphere" and exploded, but it had done quite a bit of that "impacting" across a great deal of sky, so that would make you a wanker and I'd have to finish my beer at the other end of the bar whilst giving you the Stink-Eye.

    "Exploded over Chelyabinsk" is correct.

    Relating to the Rest of the article; Damn, I had such high hopes for an ELE this year.

  12. Jtom

    Not an ELE, surely, but can we still hope for a couple of rocks big enough to take out London and Washington?

  13. Baldrickk
    Joke

    Wait, isn't today the *new* date for when the world ends because [that imaginary planet I can't remember the name of] is supposed to collide with the Earth?

    Is someone trying to distract us?

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