back to article Oracle demands dev tear down iOS app that has 'JavaScript' in its name

Oracle, claims developer Zhongmin Steven Guo, has demanded that Apple remove an app he created because it contains the trademarked term "JavaScript." The app in question, published by Guo's Tyanya Software LLC – which appears to be more a liability shield than a thriving software business – is titled "HTML5, CSS, JavaScript, …

  1. dnicholas

    Beginning of the end.

    This post was brought to you by a JavaScript trademark encroaching phone OS

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Meh

      what's next?

      well, looks like the term 'JavaScript' ©®�⍟☂☢™ can't be used ANYwhere without permission and/or royalties. Does that include being embedded in a 'script' HTML tag?

      Let's just change the name to something else, then. I suggest "Semprini".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: what's next?

        FWIW, the official, standardised version is known as "ECMAScript", though whether it's technically correct to use that name to refer to a specific implementation itself or merely to the standard it implements is open to question. Also, "ECMA" and "ECMAScript" are still themselves trademarked.

        While I'm here, it's also worth remembering that Oracle (and predecessor Sun) don't own- and didn't even create- JavaScript itself. They merely own the rights to the name because Netscape licensed it from them, renaming what was known as "LiveScript" in early betas to "JavaScript" to piggyback on the hype surrounding Java in the mid-90s. (#)

        The confusion this marketing-led decision would cause between Java and JavaScript- two technically-unrelated languages- over the years should have been obvious even at the time, and deserves condemnation for that reason alone, even if they didn't have the benefit of hindsight on the licensing issues.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: what's next?

          Live Script was a much better name. The marketing morons at Netscape, as usual, were out of their f*ing minds. Since ECMAScript (proun. ek-mah-skript) doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, why not just use "ES" (ee-ss) instead? So the latest version, ECMAScript 6, would become ES6. Why not go further and phase out the .js filename extension and migrate to ".es"? After all, nothing says freedom like pushing Oracle a little bit further into irrelevance.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You'd think that the company that bought java would know that javascript is NOT java.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      As I mentioned above, Oracle still owns the name JavaScript. Netscape licensed the rights from (what was then) Sun in order to benefit from the hype surrounding Sun's Java language.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Did he just leave out the TM?

        Following the commentard tradition of not actually looking anything up, I ask whether affirming that JavaScript(TM) is a trademark of Oracle sufficed? (I agree that this is a typical case of overzealous lawyers creating a cottage-industry. Remember the patent-marking cottage-industry that was finally squashed by the AIA?)

  3. Lee D Silver badge

    What a brilliant way to ensure that nobody ever talks about your product ever again.

    And the "trademark enforcement" nonsense? Just rubbish. You can use trademarks so long as you're not passing off. Otherwise every product called "... for Windows" would be in breach of trademark (yes, Microsoft tried it, they failed). And you'd be able to sue someone for saying, say, "DVD Collection Organiser".

    Sorry, but Oracle are just setting out to destroy every possible reason to ever go near one of their properties, and I can't fathom why. Everything they touch dies, forks, or is something everyone runs from. The whole Java/Dalvik thing, MySQL/MariaDB, OpenOffice, the whole Sun brand, etc. etc. etc.

    1. katrinab Silver badge

      Windows isn't a trademark. Word isn't a trademark. They are generic descriptions that describe the type of product.

      Microsoft Windows is a trade mark. Microsoft Word is a trade mark. Excel is a trademark whether prefixed with Microsoft of not as it isn't a generic description of a spreadsheet program.

    2. Pier Reviewer

      “Sorry, but Oracle are just setting out to destroy every possible reason to ever go near one of their properties...”

      Setting out? It feels like that ship sailed a long ways back. This is just another stop on a very long cruise.

  4. SVV

    Easily solved

    Just call it " "HTML5, CSS, LarryIsAnArseScript, HTML, Snippet Editor." and introduce your new LarryIsAnArseScript language, based on EMCAScript. What are they going to do next? Sue Stroustrop for "stealing" the extended for loop introduced in Java by including it in C++?

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Easily solved

      "LarryIsAnArseScript" isn't bad, but I still like "Semprini".

      1. Tom 64
        Pint

        Re: Easily solved

        I suggest 'AllLawyersAreVulturesScript', or perhaps 'OracleSucksBallsScript'.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Easily solved

          Whatever one thinks of Ellison, it's clear he isn't the type of guy who cares if people think he's a dick, nor likely to be upset by "LarryIsAnArseScript" or "OracleSucksBallsScript".

          No... if you *really* want to hit him where it hurts, you should call it "Larry-Ellison-Still-Isn't-As-Rich-As-Bill-Gates-Script".

      2. Havin_it

        Re: Easily solved

        How about ACMEScript - close to its parent standard, and likely to come top in alphabetical lists. And you get a free anvil and some dynamite with it.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Easily solved

      As far as I can tell, this is an issue surrounding the use of the "JavaScript" name that Netscape licensed from what was then Sun, i.e. a trademark issue and (I assume) entirely separate from any legal issues that might or might not relate to the JavasScript language itself.

  5. petef

    You use the word JavaScript 12 times in your article. Expect a letter from Sue, Grabbitt and Runne.

    Must go now, there's someone pounding on my door.

    1. stephanh

      But merely mentioning a trademarked name is in itself not a problem. The problem is in *naming* some product after the trademark.

      Somebody at Oracle's law firm did a grep over an easily-available list of software products, thereby satisfying some minimal level of "policing" effort so as not to lose the trademark.

  6. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Meh

    Conflicted

    On the one hand I hate all the javascript crap that sites stuff up my CPU with.

    On the other hand... Oracle

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Conflicted

      Not conflicted, Will, just a curse on all their houses.

  7. David 132 Silver badge
    Coat

    Don't mention Javascript.

    ...I almost mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right.

  8. J27

    Because Oracle are jerks, even the people who define that standard can't call it JavaScript. So what we're left with is ECMAScript (catchy name, I know) and a bunch of legacy leading people to call even the new standards "Javascript".

    Maybe if they could just come up with a new, catchy name we could be free of Oracle entirely. I mean, who wants to go along shackled to the boat anchor that Java is turning into under Oracle's leadership?

  9. Steve Knox

    Which is Which?

    ...the standard on which JavaScript is based, the ECMAScript programming language.

    Shouldn't that be "...ECMAScript, the standard which is based on the JavaScript programming language"?

    JavaScript was created between May and December 1995. ECMAScript didn't show up until 1997, and it was based almost entirely on Netscape's submission of JavaScript.

    Perhaps you could say that future versions of JavaScript were specifically aligned with ECMAScript from there on out, but JavaScript was the original.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Which is Which?

      The point is moot: ECMAScript is the name of the standard that browsers follow though they refer to it as JavaScript.

  10. Andrew Hodgkinson
    Go

    Well this all raises a pretty good point

    So in the interest of forgetting any and all associations with Oracle, why don't we just call it ECMAScript, then? Even if that's clumsy? Most colloquial references seem to talk about it by framework anyway - "This site uses Angular", "The service is written in Node".

    The app just changes its description to "HTML5, CSS, ECMAScript, HTML, Snippet Editor" and carries on being a hobby project with the accidental reference to the pointless bloatware dead-man-walking that is Oracle left consigned to the dustbin of history.

    If Oracle want their trademark, let them have it. And thus, let it die.

    1. Dave559 Silver badge

      Re: Well this all raises a pretty good point

      JavaScript may be the worst ever case of bandwagon jumping in terms of naming, and a source of eternal confusion for people who can’t tell the differences between Java and JavaScript, but ECMAScript is an even worse name (sounding as if it is an unfortunate medical condition somewhere between eczema and acne).

      Since JavaScript is, de facto, •the• client side scripting language of the web, why don’t we just rename it to WebScript and be done with both the language confusion and inane trademarking?

      1. MacroRodent
        Trollface

        Re: Well this all raises a pretty good point

        > but ECMAScript is an even worse name (sounding as if it is an unfortunate medical condition somewhere between eczema and acne).

        And thus describes that mess of a programming language pretty well!

    2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Well this all raises a pretty good point

      "If Oracle want their trademark, let them have it. And thus, let it die."

      This is what Oracle would like and, strangely enough, I find myself in their camp on this occasion.

      Start calling it ECMAScript and people stop confusing Java with JS. Publishers get to re-issue old wine in new skins (yes, I know that's the wrong way round) merely by search and replace on all their JS textbooks. Oracle keeps all references to Java-anything to itself. Oracle's lawyers have to find another way of being annoying.

  11. Criminny Rickets
    Boffin

    Self Promotion

    I prefer to use Coffeesscript myself.

    How sure is the author of the article that Guo actually did receive a cease and desist letter, and it is not just him saying this so as to get free promotion for his app?

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Self Promotion

      I think the author isn't sure at all as is suggesting it's a PR stunt by Guo.

  12. Nick Kew

    Could it be that this is a red herring? Apple taking down a dodgy app (perhaps after complaints) and asserting the TM thing as an excuse? Or even the purveyor of the dodgy app inventing the whole excuse?

    Just a thought. It would explain why JavaScript is just fine in other places[1]. If I google, apple's app store tops the results, but their page wants me to open it in itunes (sod that) and I don't see any review pages.

    [1] That is, the word is just fine. The script itself - well, the less said, the better.

  13. Secta_Protecta

    Of course it is possible that Zhongmin Steven Guo is just using this as a cunning ruse to draw attention to themself and their app...

  14. trevorde Silver badge

    The new Oracle

    is now a patent/trademark troll. Those super yachts just don't pay for themselves.

    1. dave 81

      Re: The new Oracle

      That is not new, always have been overly litigious.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If you build it (with Oracle products) they will come

    If you do not use Oracle products/standards then perhaps Larry Litigation will finally p*ss off.

  16. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

    Eh.. So an app can't reference what it's for now?

    May I suggest a new name for the unmentionable: JavaShit.

    And, by the way, Java is an island, if I'm not mistaken.

    1. Teiwaz

      And, by the way, Java is an island, if I'm not mistaken.

      Also a coffee - I think Oracle will only go after IT uses of the word - unfortunately...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Joking aside, that wouldn't work- it's the "Java" bit that Netscape licensed from Sun (now Oracle), not "Script".

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    All together now

    Repeat after me

    Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript Javascript

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      If you say it three times, Larry Ellison will appear and demand a licensing fee.

  18. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    No case to answer

    This is a PR stunt if anything. Even Oracle's litigious legal team wouldn't try this.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Mushroom

    What some companies need to realize...

    First the obvious oneliner: Gee, I really wonder why Oracle has become so massively unpopular with geeks and other techies.... I knew it was bad news the very moment I saw my support subscription for Sun Solaris triple while I got a lot less service in return (note: mostly referring to SunSolve access which was Sun's hardware database on everything they ever made,it was awesome).

    But this is just cringe worthy.

    Oracle's definition of open source: "It's free as long as you're not making any money from it, but if you do we'd like our 55% cut please..". What a bunch of hyena's!

    I really hope more and more geeks will come to realize that using (wh)Oracle products isn't the best of ideas and are therefor best avoided. I don't do this often because I truly believe in "the best tool for the best job" and I dislike zealous bias. Because of that I can honestly enjoy both Windows and FreeBSD. I enjoy tinkering with PowerShell just as much as I enjoy messing around on my trusty FreeBSD Korn shell. I don't discriminate. Heck; my Apache webserver is backed by both Tomcat for Java servlet pages ("jsp") as well as mod_mono ('Powered by Mono') for ASP.NET support. I admire both environments and enjoy using them.

    But ever since (wh)Oracle started throwing weight around, this is yet another example, have I been very keen on moving myself and my company away from Oracle best as I could. MySQL has mostly been replaced by PostgreSQL but one instance remains for some specific web applications and we're even looking into what to do next. Can we do without the webapps or shall we move onto MariaDB...

    Totally ridiculous if you think about it but what other choice do they leave you? The way I see it you'll always be at risk for those hyena's to come knocking at your door because they want their cut of your money. And for doing what? Apparently owning the rights to some name or some product.

    I really hope more feel the same as I do and that eventually this is going to backfire on them. Never forget that bigger things always start slow. My endeavors probably don't harm Oracle at all, but me sharing them every chance I get and even pointing others to solutions such as PostgreSQL (personal favorite) and/or MariaDB can leave a mark over time. One that can only get bigger, and once that happens you never know what might happen next.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: What some companies need to realize...

      But this is just cringe worthy.

      It would if it were true. Oracle has very little chance of asserting copyright over Javascript, not least because Sun hardly bothered. But if Oracle were to go after anyone it would probably be the browser makers, most notably Google, because V8 powers node.js.

      Oracle didn't become as big as it is by making bad products. I'm not a fan but for many years companies were happy to pay Oracle whatever it took to run their services. The Sun deal was poorly handled but at least Oracle understood that Sun had assets it was doing nothing with, which was a disservice to shareholders.

      I've never liked MySQL and the Sun deal was one of the best things to happen to Postgres as developers switched from MySQL to Postgres. However, since the takeover, as far as I can tell, Oracle has taken quality in MySQL seriously, something that used to be an oxymoron. But it seems to be more interested in buying up the competition and dreaming up ever more licensing systems than development. And if it continues not to invest in its own products, it will lose market share and money faster than any of its patent trolling can make it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Trademark issue- Oracle don't own JavaScript itself

        This is a trademark issue. It has nothing do with copyright. (#)

        Netscape created a language known in early Betas as "LiveScript". They licensed the *name* "JavaScript" to capitalise on the mid-90s hype for Sun's otherwise unrelated "Java" language. Hence Oracle still owns the *trademark* "JavaScript".

        Oracle has zero chance of asserting the *copyright* on the language itself for the simple reason that they don't own it and never did. End of story.

        (#) Despite aspects of the two being often confused, they're completely different. For example, you don't have to "defend" copyright as appears to be being suggested above- that's trademarks. (Though if we *were* talking about copyright I'm not sure how it would affect damages if it could be shown that a given party had tolerated or implicitly endorsed through inaction particular uses of their tech covered by copyright).

  20. TRT Silver badge

    We'd best get indoors.

    Oracle's lawyers are easily startled, but they'll soon be back, and in greater numbers.

    Oh, sorry. That's JawaScript. It's not the App you were looking for...

    1. Teiwaz
      Coat

      Re: We'd best get indoors.

      Oh, sorry. That's JawaScript. It's not the App you were looking for...

      Benefit of being similar, I'd go with 'ewokscript' as things could get a little hairy.

      Baa-dum-tish!!

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: We'd best get indoors.

        Set a few browser wookies.

  21. Mister Goldiloxx

    "HTML5, CSS, JavaScript, HTML, Snippet Editor"

    Change the name to HTML5, CSS, 'Coffee' Script, HTML, Snippet Editor.

    Everyone will know what it is. And THIS petty crap is why I won't use Oracle.

    1. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

      Will everyone know what a "HTML5, CSS, 'Coffee' Script, HTML, Snippet Editor" is? And what does it do that Microsoft Windows Notepad doesn't, or vice versa?

      I'm under the impression that long, vague, buzzwordy company and product names are or were a Chinese thing, and that their own government was cracking down on it - there was a news story a while back. So you're lucky if it's Oracle shutting you down instead.

    2. Havin_it

      CoffeeScript is already a thing, IIRC.

  22. EveryTime

    It's really, really hard to have sympathy for a keyword spamming SEO-gaming wanker. Even when the other side is Oracle.

  23. Emmapiterson
    Happy

    Oracle Owns "Javascript", so Apple is taking down my app!

    Just received this email from Apple about my app(Html, CSS, javascript snippet editor). Looks like you can't use "Javascript" because Oracle owns it!

    Does anyone have any idea how to fight it or just give up?

    "As you are likely aware, Oracle owns US Trademark Registration No. 2416017 for JAVASCRIPT. The seller of this iTunes app prominently displays JAVASCRIPT without authorization from our client. The unauthorized display of our client's intellectual property is likely to cause consumers encountering this app to mistakenly believe that it emanates from, or is provided under a license from, Oracle. Use of our client's trademark in such a manner constitutes trademark infringement in violation of the Lanham Act. 15 U.S.C. § 1125(a)(1)(A). In order to prevent further consumer confusion and infringement of our client's intellectual property rights, we request that you immediately disable access to this app. We look forward to your confirmation that you have complied with this request."

    Hope you’ll get your answer.

    Thank you!!!

    TechTIQ Solutions

    https://www.techtiq.co.uk

  24. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

    Oracle wants to have their cake and eat it too.

    First they try to commoditise the name, making it popular and used everywhere.

    Then they decide that you can't even use the name to refer to a product working with it.

    Scummy.

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