back to article Apple store besieged by protesters in Paris 'die-in' over tax avoidance

A French group opposed to Apple's tax maneuvering in Europe took to the company's stores this weekend in a public protest. Attac France travelled to Apple Stores in Paris and Aix-en-Provence Saturday to hold a "die-in" protest against the Cupertino iPad seller and its cunning schemes to divert taxes away from the French …

  1. Mayday
    Coat

    I've heard it all now

    An anti-globalisation group peddling their message and advertising their activities of the Internet.

    The greatest symbol of globalisation if there ever was one.

    1. ratfox
      Angel

      Re: I've heard it all now

      If they didn't advertise it on the internet, who would notice?

    2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: "The greatest symbol of globalisation"

      The globalisation that is the Internet has nothing to do with the globalisation that is Apple. You're using that same word in two entirely different concepts.

      Apple is global in the sense that it is selling all over the world.

      The Internet is global in the sense that a message can be read by anyone anywhere in the world (except totalitarian countries that don't like the Internet, but that is another issue).

      So it makes perfect sense that an anti-corporate-globalisation group, who is against a megacorp selling its wares on the entire planet, use a global communication platform to help its message get across.

      And, if I were to be finicky, I'd point out that it is not the group that is posting this article on the Internet.

    3. Steve the Cynic

      Re: I've heard it all now

      An anti-globalisation group peddling their message and advertising their activities of the Internet.

      The greatest symbol of globalisation if there ever was one.

      This reminds me of a poster I saw in Oxford somewhere just before 2000. It was advertising a "Living Marxism" conference, call the credit card hotline to book a place. I found the juxtaposition of "Living Marxism" and "credit card hotline" to be ... entertaining.

  2. JakeMS
    Alert

    But!

    Did the protest yield any results? Or the previous one? Did these protests do anything, at all, to convince Apple to pay more tax?

    I'm guessing once they left Apple just carried on like it never happened?

    1. lglethal Silver badge
      Go

      Re: But!

      The idea behind these sorts of protests is not really to change the offenders behaviour (we all know by now that you cant penetrate the Reality Distortion Field (tm)) - the idea is to bring attention of the "alleged" crimes and financial shenanigans to the people in government/police/tax authorities with the power to do something about it.

      Additionally these sorts of protests attempt to bring the dodgy shenanignans to the attention of the general public, in the hope that people will change there spending habits and wont spend their money with the tax dodging buggers. Admittedly, anyone who isnt already aware of Apples dodgy tax dealings, is probably unlikely to hear about this either, but who knows, maybe a message will finally sink in to one or two more people.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: But!

        The idea behind these sorts of protests is not really to change the offenders behaviour (we all know by now that you cant penetrate the Reality Distortion Field (tm)) - the idea is to bring attention of the "alleged" crimes and financial shenanigans to the people in government/police/tax authorities with the power to do something about it.

        Here's a few interesting points right back at them. The reason Apple can do this is because there are tax loopholes, which came from their government system. The protestors shouldn't be bringing attention to the government and hoping the government will do something to Apple, because likely they won't be doing much other than making a new law with a new loophole. Ever wonder why their government complains on the media about Apple but couldn't do much? It's because their government created the loopholes.

        Instead, the protestors should really be aiming at bring attention to their people to make the government remove those tax loopholes.

        And here comes the second point. To remove those tax loopholes, the protestors also need to know what they need to compensate for (ex: no corporate tax -> higher tax elsewhere) to get that, which isn't easy to reach to an agreement especially when all large companies and corrupted government will be against it.

        For the final point, the protestors need to know that the media reports only the extremes, meaning the amount of Apple products sold and earned in France can be significantly less than €60bn (France = Apple total revenue x France share from total).

        Protesting is easy, knowing and getting want they really want is hard.

        1. katrinab Silver badge

          Re: But!

          They are bringing it to the attention of the people.

          Tim Cook doesn't visit the Apple Store in Paris very often, if at all; but it is a busy shopping street that lots of people walk along.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            They are bringing it to the attention of the people.

            Indeed, and how many of them are pointing and laughing at the spectacle?

            With all of the turmoil plaguing France, the Apple store doesn't exactly seem a circumspect "hill" to "die" upon.

        2. MonkeyCee

          Re: But!

          "The reason Apple can do this is because there are tax loopholes, which came from their government system."

          The tax loopholes that Apple exploit are quite specifically *not* from their government system. The double Irish requires laws peculiar to Ireland. The Dutch sandwich ditto for laws unique to the Netherlands. Worldwide profits booked through an Irish company that exists in a UK tax haven.

          I think Apple international is now registered in Jersey, after the Irish got sued by the EU for not collecting back taxes.

          Oh wait, there's the government system we voted for. Having to sue another government into enforcing it's own bloody laws.

          "what they need to compensate for (ex: no corporate tax -> higher tax elsewhere) to get that"

          Apple paid a fraction of percent in profit tax on worldwide profits for decades. It doesn't matter what the fictive rate of corporate tax is if you keep your profits offshore.

        3. Teiwaz

          Re: But!

          The protestors shouldn't be bringing attention to the government and hoping the government will do something to Apple

          What hang out near Governmental (Tax) offices?

          Mmm, not as effective at highlighting the cause of their consternation as hanging around outside the premises of the bone of contention.

          Better to be where the General Public can associate the protest with it's intended target - you think hampering the exit and egress of cold-hearted taxation bereaucrats is going to have an effect?

          The French government is used to this sort of mass demonstration though.

          Not that it would happen in the UK, but when it does, Westminster shits itself, and inevitably rushes out some draconian peace of legislation to keep the plebs from doing it again masked as about some other issue.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: But!

          > ... ex: no corporate tax -> higher tax elsewhere

          Or instead, maybe cease wasting tax revenue on boondoggle mega billion EU IT outsourcing projects?

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: But!

            > no corporate tax -> higher tax elsewhere

            Give some thought as to who actually pays corporation tax, and tax on corporations in general.

            Clue 1: It's not the corportion

            Clue2: It's not the shareholders.

            Clue3: Where do corporations get their money from?

            Clue4: Where's your wallet?

            Getting all businesses within a territory to pay equal tax so the non-domiciled ones don't have an advantage is still a good idea though, in my opinion.

            1. Tom 38

              Re: But!

              Getting all businesses within a territory to pay equal tax so the non-domiciled ones don't have an advantage is still a good idea though, in my opinion.

              It's such a good idea that it is in fact what actually happens at the moment. All companies - big, little, domestic, multinational - pay exactly the same rate of corporation tax, employer payroll taxes, VAT and local taxes as each other. The only difference is that most of their profit is derived from economic activity elsewhere - designing things in the US, building them in China - and the profit derived from that economic activity is taxed there.

              Arguing about the size of that proportion is the job of the tax office; if you think they aren't doing it right, they are the ones that should be picketed.

              As a side note, most of the companies in the FTSE-100 are multinationals whose profit in the UK is boosted by revenues from abroad in exactly the same way. People in glass houses shouldn't throw too many stones.

            2. Cpt Blue Bear

              Re: But!

              "Give some thought as to who actually pays corporation tax, and tax on corporations in general."

              I can make the same argument: the only way I can pay income tax is by working for money. My employee pays me by charging their customers (clue: that's you). So by making me pay income tax you actually make yourself poorer!

              I think I first spotted the flaw in this moronic argument when I was about 11. If a not particularly bright preteen can see it why do we keep hearing this nonsense?

              Back in the real world, which do you think is easier to do: levy a tax at a single point or millions? Answers on a postcard to the ATO (or IR, IRS or whoever).

        5. Richocet

          Re: But!

          Loopholes?

          Yes and no.

          Most of what they do could be argued to be legal (but is in a gray area since it goes against the intent of the law). And they get to keep the money while the legality is debated. And if they are found to owe the money in the end, it is already in a tax haven and impossible to get back.

          However most of these schemes involve a step in a secrecy jurisdiction such as in the Caribbean or Switzerland where the ownership or value of something is recorded and hidden, then the value or ownership is falsely declared to non-secret governments (as something else). This is why the Panama papers are so important - they prove that many big companies and wealthy individuals were lying and therefore evading tax rather than avoiding it.

          The sad part is the lack of action. Perhaps that is related to 4 prime ministers being revealed as having secret offshore accounts.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: But!

        The useful idiots that make up the protesters are wasting their time protesting in Apple shops. If they want change (actually it is their political masters that want change) they should be protesting in the European Commission offices for changes to the tax laws. That will never happen because the politicians using them need to keep their tax advantages.

        1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: But!

          To be fair, the problem is not so much the individual government tax legislation, but the army of very clever accountants and tax lawyers who are paid to find the chinks in the interfaces between tax jursidictions.

          What enables globalisation is the existence of supra-national companies. These can transfer value, goods and expertise across national borders internally without much control

          Countries with the highest growth rates don't alow them - any company doing business in these countries must do it via a local company.

      3. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: But!

        Additionally these sorts of protests attempt to bring the dodgy shenanignans to the attention of the general public, in the hope that people will change there spending habits

        I saw this lunchtime there were still plenty of people prepared to queue up for expensive mediocrity in Starbucks.

        And anyone who ever buys from Amazon because of a very competitive price is party to tax avoidance. Because it is partly because of the the tax avoidance that they can afford to be so competitive and ultimately anti-competitive.

  3. Chris Miller

    Our French friends need to get with the programme - we're building a United States of Europe, whether its people want it or not. No-one in California protests against a business incorporating in Delaware, a choice normally made for financial reasons rather than for the beautiful weather in Dover. This is a dispute as to whether the democratically elected government of a country is allowed to set its own taxes. And, if you don't like the answer 'no', then you can always leave.

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      re: This is a dispute as to whether the democratically elected government of a country...

      ... is allowed to set its own taxes

      No it isn't. It's about whether a company can do business in one country and claim that it's taken place in another country where tax is lower. The protesters want sales in France to be subject to France's tax laws.

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: re: This is a dispute as to whether the democratically elected government of a country...

        the protesters want sales in France to be subject to France's tax laws.

        And what is stopping the French government from passing a law which says precisely that?

        1. The Nazz

          Re: re: This is a dispute as to whether the democratically elected government of a country...

          Simplified somewhat but .... Juncker.

          The architect of Luxembourg's ( and Europes ) tax evasion systems.

          Now that he has the top job, the power and the luxury, he doesn't give a toss about, for want of a better word, us plebs. Nor ever did.

          It wouldn't be so bad if Governemnt(s) didn't waste ever so much of the taxes raised.

    2. Teiwaz

      Meanwhile, outside the asylum

      United State of Europe

      Although, sadly slipping to the right, Europe will be ever so slightly more socialist, now that the UK is leaving, a far cry from 'the real' United States, where, seemingly whatever side the fence you are on 'liberal' seems to be a code for 'conspiring degenerate'....A dangerously insane country....

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Isn't this a consequence of being in the EU?

    Even if Apple's deal with Ireland is held to be illegal by the EU, Apple ends up paying 13 billion euros to Ireland, not to France.

    If France doesn't like it, it sounds they need to take it up with the EU. So long as there are countries with lower tax rates than France's, companies will move their profits around to take advantage of those lower rates in accordance with EU law.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Isn't this a consequence of being in the EU?

      You mean some sort of Tax harmonisation as proposed by the French and Germans?

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11630468/France-and-Germany-behind-plans-for-common-EU-corporation-tax.html

      I wonder which country was totally against that. Oh yes, us.

      1. Peter2 Silver badge

        Re: Isn't this a consequence of being in the EU?

        You mean some sort of Tax harmonisation as proposed by the French and Germans?

        I don't think you understand corporation tax. It's the tax on declared profits and fails to address the existing problem which is that a multinational company makes £10 billion profit and then pays a £9.9 billion license fee to another country followed by doing the same thing repeatedly until no tax is paid anywhere.

        Solution linked to above: set the taxes on the 0.1 billion left at the EU level. Opposed by the government just before the referendum vote, where the message to the EU was probably "WTF guys? Are you deliberately trying to hand ammunition to the leave campaign?!"

        More rational solution: stop the £9.9 billion in profits being vanished or tax the firms pulling this shit on revenue instead.

        1. maffski

          Re: Isn't this a consequence of being in the EU?

          'More rational solution: stop the £9.9 billion in profits being vanished or tax the firms pulling this shit on revenue instead.'

          So all that design and engineering work that Apple does mostly in California is not responsible for any of the value in selling iPhones to Parisians? Do want to be the one to tell Trump that is US can't tax that value?

          1. Peter2 Silver badge

            Re: Isn't this a consequence of being in the EU?

            Oh, you can. It's just that it's done by sticking an extra bit on the costs of the handsets that you sell.

            It's not done by classifying all of your profit as revenue to escape taxation.

            1. Tom 38

              Re: Isn't this a consequence of being in the EU?

              It's not done by classifying all of your profit as revenue to escape taxation.

              And that's not what is done with transfer pricing either, so...

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Isn't this a consequence of being in the EU?

                Transfer pricing is at least somewhat clear with a company like Apple that makes (most of) its money the old fashioned way, by selling tangible goods. Companies like Google or Microsoft make almost all of their money selling intangible goods - and not even to consumers. Microsoft is selling 'software licenses' to PC OEMs who sell PCs to consumers, and Google is selling ad space targeted at its users to advertisers.

                If a French resident/citizen buys €1000 in ads from Google to show to people in Paris, that's €1000 in revenue that can pretty definitely be claimed as earned in France. But what are the expenses? If Google doesn't have a datacenter in France and the ad team resides in Switzerland, should France argue that they have zero expenses in France and claim the entire €1000 as taxable profit in France? Google would argue they should allocate a share of their overall ad delivery cost.

                It gets even more complicated if say I as a US resident/citizen buy ads from Google to run in Paris, or the French resident/citizen buys €1000 in ads from Google to run in the US. Or if Google has servers in France and maybe they are used to serve ads to more than France, or maybe they have an ad team in France that works with other EU countries.

                Compared to that confusion, figuring out what taxes Apple should pay is simple.

                1. Tom 38

                  Re: Isn't this a consequence of being in the EU?

                  If a French resident/citizen buys €1000 in ads from Google to show to people in Paris, that's €1000 in revenue that can pretty definitely be claimed as earned in France.

                  But if the same French citizen buys €1000 in shovels from Bobs Shovels (Ireland), the economic activity is in Ireland. Why do you think that services should be treated differently from goods?

                  I don't think it should, but I also think that these companies should be actually following the rules, and the tax offices should be validating and verifying. For instance, the bullshit that google do by having pre-sales account assistants based in the UK, and the ad sales based in Ireland, and claiming that the UK workers are a cost centre rather than how they derive their income - that's just BS.

  5. BlokeInTejas

    Idiots

    If these bien-non-pensants have a beef with taxes paid by corporations in France, they should go and harass their own government, which is the entity that sets the tax paying rules in place.

    Oh, they're French. Yep. No idea how the real world works (lookout the current SNCF strikes...)

    1. Steve the Cynic

      Re: Idiots

      Oh, they're French. Yep. No idea how the real world works (lookout the current SNCF strikes...)

      When I moved to France, before I left, I told a bunch of friends that I was going. One of them was a Frenchman (in England) himself, and he advised me to learn the meaning of one word, "grève" = "strike".

      I resisted the urge to point out that I grew up in England in the 1970s, and that I was therefore well aware of what a strike is, no matter what language you use to talk about it. And yes, I would say that the UK has had its own moments of unreality in that respect. (And one could also, more recently, discuss Bob Crow's merry crew, I suppose.)

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The root cause

    of this debacle are the tax laws.

    Until you sort them out, this wont ever end as globalmegahypercorpincltd will use ANY and EVERY "trick" in the book to circumvent paying tax and as they are doing nothing illegal, it's bit difficult to see how they can be brought to book, so to speak.

    The blame lies squarely at the tax law makers.

    1. Richocet

      Re: The root cause

      They are doing many things that are in legal gray areas and a few things that are illegal but can't be proved, such as lying about costs and licensing fees.

      Changing the laws isn't a silver bullet.

      Enforcing existing laws is another option that would help. Although that would require paying people to do the work, which is politically unpopular. And I think there is little political will to tackle this as long as those companies keep donating to political parties.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Next week they should demonstrate outside Amazon.

  8. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

    They're not really dead...

    ...they're just holding onto life wrong

  9. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

    Bloody French. 'Scuse my French. Absolutely no sympathy here, and besides that they're barking up the wrong tax tree (as pointed out by my esteemed commentacolleagues above). I've had it in general with the French and their bringing the whole damn country to a standstill whenever they feel like it.

    PS I may be biased here. Booked a flight a month ago with Air France to Morocco. Flight was cancelled last week on the day of departure due to strike action. Air France rebooked me leaving early Saturday morning for Paris, then late Saturday evening to Frankfurt, arriving Morocco 3am. Then had the (gallic) gall to tell me that because they'd rebooked me on an acceptable alternative, I wasn't allowed to cancel without charge. Luckily I fly enough to know this is a big dose of beret-wearing garlicky bollocks and told them to bite me on the grounds of on what planet would a whole-day stopover and 3am arrival be considered acceptable.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Booked a flight a month ago with Air France

      That was silly.

      Unfortunately since they bought KLM it's going downhill as well.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Unfortunately since they bought KLM it's going downhill as well.

        Agree on that. It's like the Union of Socialist Airline Republics now.

    2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      "...& 2 thumbs down"

      Ah bonjour, les singes capitulards bouffeurs de fromage!

  10. Ben1892

    I remember the days of French protesters pulling imported livestock out of lorries and setting fire to them, seems they've toned down how they protect their economy these days

    1. gnasher729 Silver badge

      "I remember the days of French protesters pulling imported livestock out of lorries and setting fire to them, seems they've toned down how they protect their economy these days"

      That's nasty. I suppose the drivers were lucky they weren't pulled out.

  11. Keith_Rhodes

    "Frnech goivernment"?

    What on earth is "the Frnech goivernment"?

    1. James O'Shea

      Re: "Frnech goivernment"?

      Something which hasn’t existed since about 1789.

  12. naive

    Over 50% here must be one of those billionaire one percenters

    Judging by the large amount of negative reactions toward the French people who want to end this massive scam, many readers of El-Reg must be those billionaires profiting from the tax laws favoring the big corporations, while shafting the little man on the street. It is estimated EU loses 1000 billion in taxes due to these avoidance loop holes, and guess what, they get them from you instead.

    A reason for this situation is the powerful position of the "big four" Ernst & Young, KPMG, Deloitte and PwC. They are both hired by government agencies and the companies, which creates an unacceptable conflict of interest, since they have a significant role in advising about tax regulations and policies to avoid them at the same time.

    1. Teiwaz

      Re: Over 50% here must be one of those billionaire one percenters

      many readers of El-Reg must be those billionaires profiting from the tax laws favoring the big corporations, while shafting the little man on the street.

      Or perhaps the historic English anti-french bias still hold sway - hyped up as it was by the government of the day for centuries.

      Coming from N.I, I know 17th Century politics when I see it.

      Were it any other countries populance up in arms (the Dutch for example) the general feeling might be quite different.

      Someone with a french accent just suggested you are the product of a hamster and a female fond of elderberries, how does that make you feel?

    2. iron Silver badge

      Re: Over 50% here must be one of those billionaire one percenters

      Nah they're just typically bigoted, racist English people.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Over 50% here must be one of those billionaire one percenters

        Nah they're just typically bigoted, racist English people>

        However, most would not tend to make a comment like ^^^^, massively hypocritical.

    3. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Over 50% here must be one of those billionaire one percenters

      Judging by the large amount of negative reactions toward the French people who want to end this massive scam, many readers of El-Reg must be those billionaires profiting from the tax laws

      I think the negative reaction is more about the pointless approach taken here. Amazon pays all the tax it legally has to, if a government wants to change that it can, governments make the laws, after all. Staging demos in Apple stores isn't going to change anything, they'd be better staging the demos outside Matignon or the Elysee Palace, that''s where the change has to come from. Of course, if a really significant number of people in France actually cared about this then no-one would buy Apple products. I don't see that happening.

      Then again, the French have a long history of electing governments which promise reform, and immediately taking to the streets in protest as soon as that reform is attempted. Makes it difficult to change anything.

    4. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

      Re: Over 50% here must be one of those billionaire one percenters

      Off topic, but technically if the metric is "income" and the scale is "global", anyone earning more than USD 32,000 a year is in the 1% slot.

  13. JeffyPoooh
    Pint

    "Apple's battle with Qualcomm over royalty payments"

    Silly Qualcomm. Didn't they get the memo?

    Royalty payments are no longer used to transfer money from one corporation to another. They're now used to export profits from all the companies of a tax-avoiding corporation to its very own "IP Holding" company in the Cayman Islands.

    "Hey boss. How much do we owe you for our use of your valuable trademark?"

    "What are your gross profits?"

    "$32.7 million."

    "Then that'll be $32.7 million."

    "That means our taxable profits would be, OMG, Nil."

    "Again? Geesh, you're not very profitable. Strange, because my IP Holding division made $55 billion so far this year."

    "Nice. By the way boss, Qualcomm wants a royalty payment. But for some reason we have no money."

    "Shame. There's lots of money here, but we're not using their technology. Unless they make sunblock or margaritas."

  14. evilhippo

    So these are people protesting that they want more expensive products?

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like