back to article Defra to MPs: There's no way Brexit IT can be as crap as rural payments

The IT challenges posed by Brexit to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) are "significantly less complex" than its woeful Common Agricultural Payments system, Defra's permanent secretary has told MPs. Around half of Defra's Brexit-related programmes (20) contain an IT element, making the department …

  1. TRT Silver badge

    With the rise of the city farm...

    This should be referred to as the Common Rural Agricultural Policy.

    1. Dr Who

      Re: With the rise of the city farm...

      So an IT system to cover it might therefore be abbreviated to CRAPIT, the first version of which might reasonably be entitled CRAPIT_A. What could possibly go wrong?

    2. oxfordmale78

      Re: With the rise of the city farm...

      The difference is that the existing system, although complex, has been up and running for years, whereas the new system is still in the design phase and will be cheaply outsourced leaving the developers with little chance of delivering a robust system in the next decade.

  2. Dan 55 Silver badge

    They're probably right

    Any farming subsidy after Brexit would be easily managed with an Excel spreadsheet with Her Maj, families of MPs, and some overseas billionaires.

    1. IDoNotThinkSo
      FAIL

      Re: They're probably right

      You jest, but one particular DEFRA application form that I had to deal with once was the worst Excel spreadsheet disaster I've ever come across. How farmers were supposed to deal with that horror I've no idea.

      There was a course (££) on said form for land agents but that was mostly about how to work around the broken bits.

      I don't think the bizarre EU driven rules helped, either.

      1. tiggity Silver badge

        Re: They're probably right

        Rest of EU had no grief with CAP payments, UK made a phenomenal botched job, as seems to be mandatory for them with any IT projects, when they get their (not fit for purpose) usual suspect mates involved

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: They're probably right

      It will be easy because there will be no replacement and no money for farmers. The plan is not to tell them until it's too late. Anyway, they're likely to be too busy looking for people to replace them immigrant labour anyway.

      Cash payments to non-farming landowners but can probably done by tax rebates.

      I wish I making this up.

    3. Not also known as SC
      Joke

      Re: They're probably right

      I disagree

      There's no way Brexit IT can be as crap as rural payments

      Government IT can always get crappier...

  3. tip pc Silver badge
    Big Brother

    any excuse to pour money away

    1. TRT Silver badge

      Someone will be milking it...

  4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    The IT challenges posed by Brexit to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) are "significantly less complex" than its woeful Common Agricultural Payments system

    Of course. They'd be able to declare the requirement for their system to be whatever the system managed to do. It's so much simpler when you don't have to work to someone else's specification.

    (In the past I've asked for a specification for S/W I was to write and, in effect, been told that whatever I did would be the spec. I lest.)

    1. Ken 16 Silver badge
      Trollface

      so, in other words

      IT means IT?

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge

        Re: so, in other words IT means IT?

        Nice.

        Well in keeping with HMG's beliefs.

  5. James 51
    FAIL

    The IT disaster wasn't the fault of the CAP, it was the fault of DEFRA and the subcontractors. I doubt enough has changed to make BAP (British Agri Policy) any less of a nightmare with the same DEFRA and subcontractors attached.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      >changed to make BAP

      As in "get your BAPS out"?

      1. Tom 7
        Megaphone

        Re BAP

        One out All out!

        Happy IWD!

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Defra to MPs: There's no way Brexit IT can be as crap as rural payments

    MPs: hold my beer ...

  7. adam payne

    I can assure you that we are very mindful of, and [have looked] closely at what lessons we can take from the most recent experience of implementing the CAP system."

    Lessons that will no doubt not be learnt.

    She identified four systems that the department would have to build in a no-deal scenario. "These are builds that are significantly less complex than the CAP delivery system

    Oh you said it, that's going to come back and bite you.

  8. lglethal Silver badge
    Joke

    Call Sherlock...

    They let someone named Moriarty into the government? This will end well, I'm sure...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Call Sherlock...

      Sherlock? More like Seagoon ....

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: Call Sherlock...

        Call Data.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Call Sherlock...

      Watson, stop playing Jeopardy! and get over here and sort out the agricultural payments system.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The statement "less complex than the CAP system"

    Does not indicate that the new system is in itself not complex.

    It also does not indicate that it can be procured and delivered in a reasonable timescale, never mind cost.

    They clearly have not got any idea still.

    I'll stand back and watch them nail that manure to the ceiling.

  10. Pen-y-gors

    It's doomed, isn't it?

    Someone should explain that scaling systems for 3000 to 88000 users isn't massively complex. Going from one to 50 is a lot harder. And are they planning to drop any mapping elements from the new system - one one that links payments to geographical locations?

    Face it, farm payments after Brexit are toast. As are most UK farms. Hence really simple systems:

    Q1 - when did your farm cease to operate?

    Q2 - did the previous farmer a) hang himself, b) shoot himself c) move to a doorway in Streatham

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      quite the contrary

      In the absence of food imports there will be no need to subsidise non production and every farm will be productive. The urban poor can be drafted to work the farms, taking a share of production in lieu of benefits.

      1. phuzz Silver badge

        Re: quite the contrary

        ...and dogs will lie down with cats, and pig shite will cease to smell.

      2. Bob Ajob

        Re: quite the contrary

        Not sure if you're joking but that is actually a bloody good idea. Many years ago when I worked at DEFRA there was a joke that it would be cheaper to just sack all of us and pass the subsidy direct to farmers without any 'administration' which was often very limited in its effectiveness. The only thing stopping that at the time was something called IACS which was an EU directive I think...

        1. Bob Ajob

          Re: IACS

          https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/direct-support/iacs_en

          Integrated Administration and Control System. That's it. Wonder how much of the 90 billion euros they've spent on IT systems since they came up with the orginal requirements.

      3. Pen-y-gors

        Re: quite the contrary

        Of course there will be food imports - we will have a wonderful WTO trade agreement with the whole world, with zero tariffs on everything, so we can import food from Africa, India and Asia at prices far below local production costs. Not that we'll have any money to pay for it of course. And if we get really peckish we can always have a handful of (locally extracted) cold gravel for breakfast, followed by a nice leaf stew.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: quite the contrary

          @ Pen-y-gors

          "we will have a wonderful WTO trade agreement with the whole world, with zero tariffs on everything, so we can import food from Africa, India and Asia at prices far below local production costs."

          And below EU food costs.

          "Not that we'll have any money to pay for it of course."

          Why? The EU doesnt handle our money supply. They use the Euro, that currency in crisis that caused wide economic damage to the EU members and the GBP was being used to prop up. The currency being bailed out by other currencies to keep it going. When we leave the EU we will continue to have the GBP as we had before the EU even existed!

          1. Rich 11

            Re: quite the contrary

            When we leave the EU we will continue to have the GBP as we had before the EU even existed!

            Wow, I never knew that! Thanks for clearing it up. Now I can be confident that the economy won't take a hit, that further austerity won't be imposed as a result and that the food banks can all be closed.

            Oh, how I wish I'd voted for Brexit now. But I missed my chance. All I can do to make up for my mistake is to worship at the feet of Johnson and Gove instead.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: quite the contrary

              @ Rich 11

              "Wow, I never knew that! Thanks for clearing it up"

              Then that is both you and Pen-y-gors informed. Or if you thought my comment was directed at you then I assume you are also Pen-y-gors? Or are you just chomping on the bit to join this discussion?

              "Now I can be confident that the economy won't take a hit"

              Interesting you say that, why? Pen-y-gors seemed to be suggesting we wouldnt be able to afford anything and we will be reduced to eating gravel and leaves. Yet even the remain assessments of leaving with their pessimistic assumptions expect continued growth.

              "Oh, how I wish I'd voted for Brexit now. But I missed my chance"

              You dont need to feel bad about it leave won the referendum. What you can do is make a decision. You can ignore events and let them take their course, you can blindly stand by remain or leave without any idea why, or you can look into the situation and decide on the direction you would like the country to go and then consider that in the next election.

              "All I can do to make up for my mistake is to worship at the feet of Johnson and Gove instead."

              You can do if you want but I cant say I rate them. My suggestion would be not to treat this like XFactor and instead look at the realities of the situation.

          2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: quite the contrary

            They use the Euro, that currency in crisis that caused wide economic damage to the EU members and the GBP was being used to prop up. The currency being bailed out by other currencies to keep it going. When we leave the EU we will continue to have the GBP as we had before the EU even existed!

            Where to start with all the kinds of wrong that is?

            Lets start with the stability of the Euro...

            GBP exchange rates over the last 20 years

            It looks like the Euro has been holding its own pretty well, so lets strike that one off...

            Now lets go with the assertion that the GBP is propping up the Euro. The GBP is not linked to the ECB which manages the Euro, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

            Ok, lets look at the 'we will continue to have the GBP as we did before' bit. On the day of the referendum result, the GBP dropped in value by 20%. It hasn't recovered. When (if) we do finally jump off that cliff, it's going to drop a lot further. We won't have the GBP we used to have. If we're lucky we'll have 70p in the pound.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: quite the contrary

              @ Loyal Commenter

              "Lets start with the stability of the Euro..." and "It looks like the Euro has been holding its own pretty well, so lets strike that one off"

              Your link was to GBP not EUR. But my comment wasnt of the stability of the Euro but how it is in crisis. The point of a currency is to support economic activity, and the EUR has caused massive harm to economic activity to a number of its members. The currency is both undervalued and overvalued depending on which member state you are in but had no fiscal transfer system to support the overall area and so is extremely vulnerable without considering its years behind economic recovery.

              "Now lets go with the assertion that the GBP is propping up the Euro. The GBP is not linked to the ECB which manages the Euro, so I don't know where you're getting that from."

              Dont worry I will help. The UK is a net contributor. Also Cameron got a worthless agreement with the EU not to use our contribution to bail out Greece (worthless because they then did it anyway).

              "On the day of the referendum result, the GBP dropped in value by 20%"

              And you are welcome. It is good news isnt it. The BoE and treasury have been trying to do this since 2008 and yet the result of that vote caused it to happen! I am not saying it wouldnt happen without the vote only that the timing was caused by it. However if you want to credit the vote with good news feel free.

              "It hasn't recovered"

              Are you sure?

              "When (if) we do finally jump off that cliff, it's going to drop a lot further"

              Are you certain? It is uncertainty causing the fall and since the world wont end as remainers predicted and it is now down to the choices of the government it is a 50/50 prediction.

              "We won't have the GBP we used to have. If we're lucky we'll have 70p in the pound."

              Against which currency? And that would be different. I wonder if the EU will have recovered from the recession by then. Or if they will still be devaluing the EUR to try and get people back into work.

              1. Teiwaz

                Re: quite the contrary

                since the world wont end as remainers predicted

                Oooh, I don't anyone was predicting that...

                Worried that 'the world', at least in the sense of life in the UK might be harder, yes.

                Only people consciously or unconsciously on a 'Book of Revelations', 'N-timer', Nostrodamus delusion ever believes 'the world will end' merely due to a financial collapse.

                Of course, we've experienced the fall-out from the vote result as of yet. The volcano has blown, and we've got a vague idea where the lava is flowing, but how much damage will be caused when the flow reaches the village I don't think is certain yet.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: quite the contrary

                  @ Teiwaz

                  "Oooh, I don't anyone was predicting that..."

                  I added a little mustard. According to Tusk it was western civilisation that was to end and to Junker the EU could break up because or brexit.

              2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                Re: quite the contrary

                The currency is both undervalued and overvalued depending on which member state you are in but had no fiscal transfer system to support the overall area and so is extremely vulnerable without considering its years behind economic recovery

                The same could be said of the dollar: California is much more expensive than Missisippi and has no transfer arrangements. But the advantages of a single currency within a single market are that it increases the efficiency of the single market by reducing currency risk.

                Anyway economically the comments of undervaluing or overvaluing are incorrect: those countries that didn't exercise wage restraint simply priced themselves out of the market. The bigger problem is the ECB's monetary policy is that by holding interest rates down not only does this lead to a transfer from savers to debtors, particularly governments and of these especially Italy, the repression is causing increasing problems in the pensions, insurance and savings industries. But it is politically easier to blame austerity imposed from outside rather than government failure. For example, Italy's total debt would lead to default at some point and this, in turn would lead to austerity imposed by the creditors. By joining the Euro it got some insulation from the credit markets (you can see the interest rates on IT debt dropped significantly on joining the Euro and has since stayed below historical levels ever since) that successive governments failed to take advantage of to reform the economy, particularly two-class employment practices.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: quite the contrary

                  @ Charlie Clark

                  "The same could be said of the dollar: California is much more expensive than Missisippi and has no transfer arrangements. But the advantages of a single currency within a single market are that it increases the efficiency of the single market by reducing currency risk."

                  Advantages of a single currency? Tell that to Greece, Italy, etc. And yes there are transfer arrangements, they pay federal tax's which redistributes from richer to poorer states while allowing California to implement policies which are making the place more expensive and driving people out.

                  If you think a single currency over a large area doesnt increase risk then I will go have a laugh for a while and skip that topic with you. The risk is greater the larger the area and so requires support for those going through different positions of the business cycle. Also to level out the problem of the overvalued and undervalued currency issue the Euro economies are suffering. Scotland is richer because of its union with England, because it is subsidised by England. Alone it would have a lower currency and we would have a higher one. But to mutual benefit we have a union. The EU has the same currency but not the support structure required for scale. It doesnt have that reduction in currency risk at all.

                  "Anyway economically the comments of undervaluing or overvaluing are incorrect: those countries that didn't exercise wage restraint simply priced themselves out of the market."

                  Undervaluing and overvaluing are extremely valid. If Germany leaves the Euro which way would their currency go? (shooting up). If Greece leaves which way will their currency go? (down). Having a currency too high is what pushed high unemployment in the Eurozone and the ECB is struggling to devalue the currency to fix the economic problem. People being given less money than before is a serious problem economically while devaluing the currency has the same real effect on the take home pay but less damage economically.

                  "The bigger problem is the ECB's monetary policy is that by holding interest rates down not only does this lead to a transfer from savers to debtors"

                  And they were late to the party. The US recovered from the recession, the UK recovered from the recession, the EU held off until it was desperate to avoid deflation. The US is unwinding QE, the UK now looking to increase interest rates, the EU years behind recovery needs to lower its currency further to match the poor economies but higher for the rich economies.

                  "For example, Italy's total debt would lead to default at some point and this, in turn would lead to austerity imposed by the creditors"

                  And while being in the Euro Italy has had no growth. It has been stunted. Greece should have defaulted but instead the EU bought the country. Greece cannot repay, that isnt debatable they just cannot. On their own they would default and reduce the value of their currency. Instead they are now trapped and screwed. Italy got lucky by bailing out the banks (got around the rules) to the dismay of Germany. But Italy is still an issue. And politically have moved anti-euro.

                  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                    Re: quite the contrary

                    Codejunky talking shit as usual:

                    Advantages of a single currency? Tell that to Greece, Italy, etc.

                    Greece would most certainly have had to go to the IMF for a bailout without the Euro and, as I noted, Italy has had a discount on interest rates since joining the single currency and even more so since 2011.

                    You seem to ignore Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia's experience of adopting the currency despite the problems.

                    And yes there are transfer arrangements, they pay federal tax's which redistributes from richer to poorer states…

                    Typos, factual inaccuracies and false comparisons all in one sentence! Your handler won't be pleased. While the EU does have official redistribution policies, including the CAP, regional development and cohesion funds, the US doesn't: federal taxes pay for federal obligations. See the discussions over Obamacare for a more detailed explanation of how it works over there.

                    Having a currency too high is what pushed high unemployment in the Eurozone and the ECB is struggling to devalue the currency to fix the economic problem.

                    Unemployment in France, Italy and Greece was high in 2008. Again, as I noted, the lack of wage restraint and economic reforms caused unemployment in these countries before the crisis. Or, if a high currency caused unemployment then why does Germany have low unemployment? Currency devaluations do not solve structural problems, which is one of the reasons behind a commons in the first place. Currency devaluations are generally followed by inflation, which quickly negates any price advantages of a deflation, and debts not denominated in the local currency will become more expensive. Greece, France and Italy have repeatedly devalued over the years and never solved problems as a result. In France in fact it was only when Delors introduced effective wage restraint in the 1980s that the devaluation-inflation cycle was broken.

                    People being given less money than before is a serious problem economically while devaluing the currency has the same real effect on the take home pay but less damage economically.

                    Which is why Lithuania chose internal devaluation prior to joining the single currency? Internal devaluations may be politically unpopular initially but avoiding a wage-price spiral has advantages.

                    But Italy is still an issue. And politically have moved anti-euro.

                    Again your handler won't be pleased by the grammatical error. But what is your point? France elected its most ardently pro-European president ever last year. The two winners of the Italian election have since revised their stance on the Euro saying that "now is not the right time to leave". Leaving now would mean no one would be buying Italian debt and interest rates would spike leading to a recession much more severe than that in Spain during the crisis. Italy needs economic, legal and political reform and won't see any improvement without it.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: quite the contrary

                      @ Charlie Clark

                      "Greece would most certainly have had to go to the IMF for a bailout without the Euro"

                      Yes, as it did while in the Euro too. But out of the Euro it would have defaulted and be set up with a repayment plan it can afford, something the EU has refused to do or accept. The EU bought Greece.

                      "Italy has had a discount on interest rates since joining the single currency and even more so since 2011"

                      So? Feel free to make a point here.

                      "You seem to ignore Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia's experience of adopting the currency despite the problems."

                      Ignoring what? I dont mention those countries but should I? By problems I assume you mean the Euro?

                      "Typos, factual inaccuracies and false comparisons all in one sentence! Your handler won't be pleased."

                      You have a handler? I am just a guy at a computer. What does your handler do for you?

                      "the US doesn't"

                      Are you seriously claiming the US doesnt have fiscal transfers? Please leave a yes or no answer so it can be clearly identified if you are trying to lie or if you are truly believing this.

                      "Unemployment in France, Italy and Greece was high in 2008. Again, as I noted, the lack of wage restraint and economic reforms caused unemployment in these countries before the crisis"

                      I am starting to think you really are just trolling now. Greek unemployment rate shot up from the recession. You say it was high but please compare then to even now. You will find a recession happened about 2008 and it was the reactions to it that which is clearly visible between the US, UK and EU.

                      "Or, if a high currency caused unemployment then why does Germany have low unemployment?"

                      I see why you are confused. The Euro is undervalued for Germany. It is overvalued for the poor countries including Greece. Please keep asking your questions like this and then the problems with your assumptions can be addressed.

                      "Currency devaluations are generally followed by inflation"

                      Yes!!! That is true. Not only is it true.. it is the point! The value of the country fell (corrected) because of the recession and quite simply the value of the country is not the same and needs to come back down to a realistic rate. A good example is fracking and Russia/Saudi- fracking reduced the value of oil so Russia devalued to match the real world value of the country (which was less) while Saudi bled cash propping up their country but actually reducing its accumulated wealth to appear richer than it is. Note the falling of the UK currency causing inflation which is giving the BoE good reason and opportunity to raise interest rates back up instead of ultra and unsustainable low.

                      "Which is why Lithuania chose internal devaluation prior to joining the single currency"

                      It did cause emigration which definitely resolves certain unemployment issues.

                      "But what is your point? France elected its most ardently pro-European president ever last year."

                      You might want to back away from that comment. France elected a pro EU but on the platform of fundamental reform President with the NF second. The French president admitting that given the freedom to vote the French would probably vote out. As I said, back away from France as your example.

                      "Italy needs economic, legal and political reform and won't see any improvement without it."

                      Yup. Leaving the Eurozone would help with that too. But as you point out the short term pain may be too scary for a long term remedy.

                      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                        Re: quite the contrary

                        Yup. Leaving the Eurozone would help with that too. But as you point out the short term pain may be too scary for a long term remedy.

                        Italy would just do what it always did, devalue and carry on as before, until it's time to devalue again.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: quite the contrary

                          @ Dan 55

                          "Italy would just do what it always did, devalue and carry on as before, until it's time to devalue again."

                          something they have any power over new they dont have control of their currency. The actions of the Eurozone from this recession should at least give people pause over how great the currency is. It should have pushed the EU to make massive reforms to the currency and they probably should forgive Greece or at the very least chop the debt down to something they can repay. I dont know if the solution is federalising the EU (and I dont care as long as we are not part of that) or if it is to scrap the EU and go back to a trade block (I would be happy with us participating) but as it is I dont see much hope for the people in the EU in the poorer countries.

                      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                        Re: quite the contrary

                        A good example is fracking and Russia/Saudi- fracking

                        Oh, some alternative facts!

                        FWIW fracking peaked after demand, particularly in China, had started to fall. It didn't have much direct effact on world oil prices because the US has a law that prevents oil from being exported. Exemptions have recently been granted for LNG.

                        But, hey, as with all populists why bother with the details?

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: quite the contrary

                          @ Charlie Clark

                          "It didn't have much direct effact on world oil prices because the US has a law that prevents oil from being exported"

                          Should I take it as you agree with me and have no response to the point so you skip it? I wont argue if it was fracking or China reducing demand, I dont really care and both can be attributable. For example the mass importer of oil didnt need to export its newly available fracked supply to reduce its dependence on imported oil. The point which you clearly missed or have no response to was-

                          reduced the value of oil so Russia devalued to match the real world value of the country (which was less) while Saudi bled cash propping up their country but actually reducing its accumulated wealth to appear richer than it is

                          "But, hey, as with all populists why bother with the details?"

                          Try addressing the point instead of nitpicking contestable details. Or if you have nothing to add dont feel bad. You can continue in your beliefs and opinions and I wont think any worse of you. But if you put them on here expect them to be challenged if they dont add up.

              3. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
                FAIL

                Re: quite the contrary

                Dont worry I will help. The UK is a net contributor.

                Complete tosh. The UK doesn't contribute a single penny to the ECB (i.e. the Euro). Either you are deliberately and wilfully conflating the EU budget with the Euro, in order to deceive others, or you just are not capable of understanding the difference. Either way, just like other prominent leavers, you are lying to people.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: quite the contrary

                  @ Loyal Commenter

                  "The UK doesn't contribute a single penny to the ECB (i.e. the Euro)"

                  So the Euro isnt the official currency of the EU? I assume your happy to accept we are a net contributor to the EU. And the ECB being the official bank for the EU? And I hope your not contesting the UK contribution was used to bail out Greece?

                  Lets see where you are having a problem and see if we can unpick it

                  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                    Re: quite the contrary

                    So the Euro isnt the official currency of the EU?

                    Er, only for accounting purposes. As a suprantional organisation the EU doesn't have a currency only member states do.

                    And the ECB being the official bank for the EU?

                    Again no: the central banks of the member states issue Euros directly and, more importantly, conduct financial transactions on behalf the ECB.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: quite the contrary

                      @ Charlie Clark

                      "Er, only for accounting purposes. As a suprantional organisation the EU doesn't have a currency only member states do."

                      So joining the EU doesnt require the moving to the Euro (or at least moving toward that aim)? The EU central bank being the ECB of the currency Euro? With the UK and Denmark having exemptions while others are obliged to join the Euro once they meet the criteria.

                      "Again no"

                      Do you disagree that the ECB is the official bank of the EU? Are you being serious or just yanking my chain now? If its the former I have no response but if its the latter, well done you had me thinking you believed that.

                      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                        Re: quite the contrary

                        Do you disagree that the ECB is the official bank of the EU?

                        Most certainly. The ECB has no relation to European Commission or any other EU institution, hence, the somewhat difficult legal wrangling as in 2011. The ECB is responsible to the member states of the Euro Group.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge
                          Trollface

                          Re: quite the contrary

                          @ Charlie Clark

                          "Do you disagree that the ECB is the official bank of the EU?

                          Most certainly. "

                          Nuff said

                2. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: quite the contrary

                  @ Loyal Commenter

                  "Either way, just like other prominent leavers, you are lying to people"

                  I wont accuse you of lying. You might just not know-

                  https://www.ft.com/content/6d92bbe2-2b04-11e5-8613-e7aedbb7bdb7

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: quite the contrary

              It looks like the Euro has been holding its own pretty well

              Which is great for Germany, but being tied to that currency and Germany's austerity policies has screwed the economies of the rest of the Euro zone. It will be very interesting to see what happens if Italy manages to form a governemnt, given that the main parties are all anti-Euro.

              On the day of the referendum result, the GBP dropped in value by 20%. It hasn't recovered.

              It has, compared to USD an almost against the Yen. Not against the Euro as it was immediately before the referendum, but the Euro dropped sharply in value against GBP during 2015, we're back to more like the usual historical value now.

              it's going to drop a lot further. We won't have the GBP we used to have. If we're lucky we'll have 70p in the pound.

              There's nothing at all in economic forecasts, from anyone, to suggest that, sorry. But feel free to stock up on Euros if you want. it's your shirt to lose.

            3. Ken 16 Silver badge
              Headmaster

              before the EU existed

              "From now on, the pound abroad is worth 14 per cent or so less in terms of other currencies. That doesn't mean, of course, that the Pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse or in your bank, has been devalued"

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: before the EU existed

                Yes, and now we're 50 years further on, and Labour still hasn't got a clue about the economy.

                1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                  Re: before the EU existed

                  Yes, and now we're 50 years further on, and Labour still hasn't got a clue about the economy.

                  And neither does the other lot.

                  1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

                    Re: before the EU existed

                    Yes, and now we're 50 years further on, and Labour still hasn't got a clue about the economy.

                    I suggest you go and do a bit of research, such as looking at various measures of economic performance over time (such as GDP, national debt, gap between rich and poor, etc.) and correlate them with the colour of the government of the day and rethink that statement. Historically, the other lot have been significantly worse performers.

                    Repeating 'received wisdom' that has been passed to you by people with a biased interest in the matter seldom highlights you as a well informed individual.

              2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                Re: before the EU existed

                That doesn't mean, of course, that the Pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse or in your bank, has been devalued

                You are Harold Wilson and I claim, er, my 5 pounds. Not sure they're going to be worth much, though!

        2. This post has been deleted by its author

        3. Ochib

          Re: quite the contrary

          " handful of (locally extracted) cold gravel for breakfast"

          That's luxury, when I was young we were given rocks to crush down to gravel

    2. Tom 7

      Re: It's doomed, isn't it?

      Q2 d)move back to his tax exile after shooting all the grouse and other wildlife he go CAP grants of millions to produce food for us and then buried the lot.

      1. Pen-y-gors

        Re: It's doomed, isn't it?

        @Tom 7

        Q2 d)move back to his tax exile after shooting all the grouse and other wildlife he go CAP grants of millions to produce food for us and then buried the lot

        You should get out o the smoke more! In my part of mid-Wales the average income for a hill sheep farm is about £23,100 - of which £20K comes from basic farm payment (CAP).

        Farm incomes in Wales 2016-17

        Strangely many of the farmers voted for Brexit - they seem to have been under the impression that they would continue to get payments after Brexit, and they would find it easier to sell lamb to New Zealand. That nice Mr Gove said so.

  11. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Damning with faint praise

    So we did such a crap job last time, this can't possibly be as bad.

    ... they think.

  12. Geekpride
    Devil

    So they're confident the new post-Brexit IT system will be fine because they made such a mess of the CAP system and learned some lessons about what not to do.

    I'm off to crash my car to make myself a better driver by learning what not to do.

  13. Zog_but_not_the_first
    Trollface

    Just...

    ... don't forget to close the pop holes.

  14. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

    You don't assess the compelxity of a system based on the number of users

    With that in mind, I predict that the eventual system, should the country not come to its senses in time, will be more complex than the current one, 3-5 years late and 2-3 times over budget. It might even get scrapped before a live implementation too. The usual suspects will profit.

  15. Lars Johansson
    Holmes

    The irony of it all...

    ...is that UK government agencies have started to recruit IT staff from overseas, to deal with systems rewrites caused by Brexit.

    I and several Sweden-based colleagues of mine have been approached by headhunters for this purpose.

    Sherlock - what else?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      But in Farming and DEFRA IT

      There is always some shit, Sherlock.

  16. Tom 7

    Any French Farmers reading this?

    Be interested to see how they manage with all those little farms out there. The UK solved that part of the problem of stopping a grant designed for small farmers going to small farmers.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Well...

    ....that sounds like a challenge

    ...no system is too simple to fuck up

  18. Dr_N
    Trollface

    Total Waste Of Money

    The great British people voted for an end to farming subsidies.

    Therefore no subsidies => No system of payments => No IT required.

    Job jobbed. NEXT!

    1. Teiwaz

      Re: Total Waste Of Money

      The great British people voted for an end to farming subsidies.

      That's actually a very good point.

      When the British G.P voted to No to the EU, were they also voting out of all those 'classic' EEC programmes we (unless you schooled before most of them came in) learned about, like CAP and the Fisheries and all the others I'm too lazy to go look up as a refresher.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Total Waste Of Money

        Except one of the first concessions the government have offered as part of the current BrExit negotiations is to keep EU access to "our" fisheries - can't tell you how well that has gone down with the Scottish fishermen who were one of the most vocal groups of BrExit supporters north of the border.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Total Waste Of Money

          Don’t get me started on fisherman! Speaking from a family with fisherman on both sides they drive me up the bloody wall moan nearly as much as farmers!

          They seem to think that they’ll be able to fish (to extinction) all the fish in UK waters without anyone else getting a look in after BREIX. Well I have news for them, deals will be done and fishing will be sold down the river. It is NOT important to the UK at all whereas it is more important to France and Spain so deals will be done to keep them sweet. The thing our fishermen seem to forget is WE DON’T EAT MUCH SEAFOOD IN THIS COUNTRY, but guess where a large proportion of the stuff we catch goes? Ermmmmm that’ll be the EU then! So all the cuttlefish that gets caught down here in the SW goes straight over to the EU as we don’t eat it as do many other species. So even if fishing wasn’t sold down the river it would be hit hard with tariffs which would have a negative effect on our fisherman so they CAN’T WIN. Plus loads of fish quays and markets have been financed with EU funds and down in Cornwall we’ve had sh1t loads of EU money spent.

          Then there’s the issue of bycatch. Sick of seeing facebook posts of fisherman chucking bycatch back and moaning about the waste. Seeming to forget that if there weren’t restrictions on catches they’d go and catch everything they could, it isn’t a perfect solution but they haven’t come up with anything better. And when the Thatcher government did suggest a different solution back in the early 90’s (restrictions on days fishing at sea) fisherman blockade ports! And the final one there’s a fund down in Cornwall to buy fisherman life jackets with some resources coming from Cornwall Council and Plymouth city council. Now here’s an idea spend less in the pub and buy your bloody own life jacket! Last time I looked if you turned up at a building site without YOUR PPE you’d be told to sod off!

          Rant mode off!

          1. Pen-y-gors

            Re: Total Waste Of Money

            It is curious trying to work out why some areas voted to Leave. Your example of Cornwall, who received shed-loads of EU infrastructure money, is a good one. I'm sure they weren't naive enough to think that the UK government would stump up similar cash in the future, when they have the tempting alternative of tax-cuts for their City mates. And the fisherman would have worked out that there was no way they would be able to sell their catch to the EU on as good or better terms than now, even if they can keep the other EU boats out.

            Same thing in parts of Wales. Farmers who get 90% of their income from farm subsidy voted to Leave. People in Merthyr, which has basically been rebuilt with EU money, voted to Leave.

            There must be deeper reasons - these aren't idiots. Confused and misled, lied to, gullible perhaps, but not stupid. Or were they just sticking two fingers up to Cameron, in a cry of frustration?

          2. H in The Hague

            Re: Total Waste Of Money

            "... but guess where a large proportion of the stuff we catch goes?"

            Tried to discuss this with a Leave voting friend who said she'd voted that way because farmers and fishermen in Cornwall had told her the EU stopped them doing unspecified things. Politely pointed out to her that Westminster might also stop them doing things, and possibly for good reasons.

            Asked her what would happen to the exports of sheep and lamb to the EU if they had to compete with New Zealand - no answer. Asked her what would happen to the 80% of fish landed in Cornwall which is exported to the EU (https://cornwallreports.co.uk/benns-brexit-committee-prepares-to-visit-cornwall/ https://cornwallreports.co.uk/lords-warn-of-brexits-threats-and-opportunities-for-cornwalls-fishing-fleet/) - no answer. Eventually she complained that it was so difficult to get information - although she's living in the UK and retired and therefore presumably has more time and opportunity to get information than me (currently living in NL and working). Apparently she forgot that the right to vote is inextricably linked to the obligation to gather and analyse information before you cast your vote!

            /rant off.

            Have a good weekend (national volunteering weekend here so going to help plant a few hundred trees - should take my mind off this stuff).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        There's got to be a chart there

        Actually the British people voted to leave the EU and that's it.

        They didn't vote for farm subsidies, they didn't vote for continued peace in Northern Ireland, they didn't vote an end to devolved government in Scotland and Wales, they didn't vote for a strong pound or enough food to eat or the ability to retire in Spain. Who knows what they think about any of those?

    2. Conspectus83
      Stop

      Re: Total Waste Of Money

      I doubt the vast majority of the brexiteers gave one thought about farmers/fisheries.

      The Government has to find £1Billion each year for the farmer, I have no idea what fisheries get. They have to do this or a very, very large number of farmers will go out of business.

      Before any other debate is started the best managers of the countryside are the farmers along with legislation. If the farmer decreases in large numbers the countryside wont get managed and that will have disastrous consciences.

      The only time I have encountered a food shortage was when KFC cocked up their chicken delivery. If the countryside is unmanaged we will suffer food shortages and astronomical food prices since we would have to import quite a lot.

      There has to be subsidies and IT to manage the subsidies.

  19. This post has been deleted by its author

  20. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Go

    Well she does *sound* like she's in control of her brief.

    Others of her ilk have frankly sounded quite shifty.

    And that "We won't know what needs doing until it happens" is frankly bu***hit.

    She seems to get the idea of identify how much work each system needs doing (little change, some change. Total rewrite) and starting to plan for a system that can be reconfigured.

    That sounds a s**tload more clued up than some of her breathren.

  21. GBE

    Still playing that "Brexit" gag?

    OK, it was funny at first, but now it's just tiresome. You need to come up with something new.

    That "President Trump Show" show, OTOH, that's still pretty fresh with new twists every episode. I'll admit the plot has gotten increasingly hard to believe, and I can't figure why there aren't any dragons or zombies in it.

    1. Cpt Blue Bear

      Re: Still playing that "Brexit" gag?

      I disagree.

      The first series of Brexit played like great satire. The season closing NI border crisis thing was like Armando Iannucci at his best.

      The second season started well by winding up the David Davis and 40 Impact Statements story arc. They do seem to be currently rehashing plot lines from the first season but I suspect these are the bridging and setup episodes. Soon we get into the meat of the story of trying to square two mutually exclusive objectives by keeping everyone believing they are getting what they want. Like all good farce the audience can see the inevitable disaster looming but the characters seem oblivious.

      The President Trump Show on the other hand is getting seriously off the rails.

      Like a lot of US shows, it suffers from writers who get green-lighted based a good premise and a few great plot ideas but ultimately haven't a plan for where its going. I expect it to run down to an ignominious end that leaves its remaining fans wondering WTF was that about.

      If you want zombies, well there is Steve Bannon who certainly looks like The Walking Dead, but that story seems to have petered out right now. I presume they mean to bring it back later.

      But its main problem is all the major characters are two dimensional caricatures or cliches straight out of central casting. There have been some terrific supporting performances - Sarah Huckabee Sanders' deadpan is comic genius - but in general its over played stock characters.

      From out here in Oz, I have to say that Brexit definitely has it over The President Trump Show for sheer laughs.

      If you like these shows, you should also check out our own long running local political comedy: Paradise Lost. The current story of a rural MP who rises by luck to become Deputy PM only to be brought down by his inability to keep it in his pants is funny as hell and a lot more nuanced than you might expect. It does help if you've been watching from the start or you may not get some of the gags.

      [Presses Submit and removes tongue from cheek]

  22. Pen-y-gors

    Not forgetting...

    the added complication that agriculture is a devolved matter. So if it isn't decided at EU level, then it's decided in the UK nations, who may well want to have different rules. So four systems instead of one? HMG are now trying to unilaterally undevolve it, of course. We'll see how that plays out in the Supreme Court - that Sturgeon lady doesn't give in (unlike Maybot). Get your popcorn stocks in before tariffs bite!

  23. This post has been deleted by its author

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