Too mild in both cases
The punishment in both cases is nowhere near serving as a deterrent for the next lot to try the scam.
Two bogus technical support operations have been shut down over the past two days – but the punishment dished out highlights eyebrow-raising differences between the US and UK in how they deal with these scumbags. On Monday, the US Federal Trade Commission reached a settlement with six people accused of running a technical …
Well, if you hang the right person, that's true.
But as the Christie case shows, hang the wrong person, and you increase crime, as the real offender is still free and the police aren't looking for them ... because they hanged them.
I tend to find proponents of capital punishment rarely think things through.
@JimmyPage
Fully agree. There's also the point that these days you'd very probably find at least one jury member dissenting on principle. Would it be acceptable to take someone's life on the basis of a majority verdict? If not what does it say about other offences where a majority verdict is accepted?
Most criminals do not think there is a significant chance of being caught, so the severity of the punishment makes little difference to whether they will commit the crime or not. However, the severity of the punishment *does* affect the average severity of the crime. A shoplifter facing a small fine will probably submit to arrest. A shoplifter facing the gallows will do everything in his power to avoid capture, including murder - they have nothing whatsoever to lose.
Plus the effect of society as a whole is that human life is in general devalued, and the entire society becomes more brutal. If hanging is an appropriate punishment for theft, then using a poker to sodomize a child trying to scrump apples is letting them off lightly.
But as the Christie case shows, hang the wrong person, and you increase crime, as the real offender is still free and the police aren't looking for them ... because they hanged them.
I always thought Agatha Christie died of natural causes?
"I think the third offense was generally a hangman's noose"
If you couldn't afford to pay a fine nobody was counting. From Wakefield Court Rolls, 1315:
"John de Blakhoumore, taken at the suit of Roger Walgar of Almanbury, for breaking into his house at Almanbury, and stealing goods and chattels, value 10s., which goods were found in his possession and are brought into court, is asked what defence he can make for the said burglary and theft; he pleads not guilty. An inquisition...finds him guilty. He is ordered to be hanged. He has no goods."
So, actually, US case is 0 jail time and $150k fine, UK case is 0 jail time and 9-month curfew. Lacking any further details as to any fines in the UK case, and whether either guilty plea includes recovery of frudulently obtained assets, I would say that the US case was more lenient, not less.
In both cases I would expect coplete recovery of fraudulently obtained assets, plus fines, plus a few months in the slammer. After all anyone for example hacking a bank system to earn a few millions would be sent to jail.
I'd say that US case at least resulted in a fine (while the UK defendant will wear a bracelet and wear relaxed fit jeans to cover it for 9 months). BTW, looks like US court system will be sole beneficiary - if they set the fine right, the scammer may consider the price of conducting business. Win, win (but for scammed saps).
If the US scum had the wherewithal to fund a large number of LLCs, set up all the phone lines, etc, they should have hit them for a lot more than a hundred K in fines.
Who am I kidding...the current US government thinks banks are over-regulated and thus, can't compete.
I'm wondering how long it's going to take for the next 2008-type crash.
Darn right. The Ohio scammer got a slap on the wrist, and the UK scammer got a sternly wagged finger in his face. Oh the horror.
I fail to see what allows Mr. Thomson to be so smug about the way the UK courts dealt with that scam. It is actually even less of a deterrent than what the moronic FTC milquetoasts did.
There was a suggestion the last time I got a call in the office from one of these people that they should be forced to watch endless repeats of Loose Women*. This was deemed a cruel and unusual punishment and therefore shouldn't be used. We then came up with the idea that they should be made tech support teacher for an old peoples home for 6 months. This was reinforced by last Fridays On Call.
*We'd just got a TV license in the office for the World Cup and had switched to ITV thinking the news was on at 1pm (like the BBC) which it wasn't.
"The punishment in both cases is nowhere near serving as a deterrent for the next lot to try the scam."
True. It seems in the US, the scammers "go large" and then end up paying large chunks of their "profits" to the government while in the UK it's on a smaller scale and the fines are also on a small scale. In neither case do the scammed get any of the cash back.
I guess that acronym is "European Court of Human Rights" ? If they are going to veto any death penalty suggested by anyone signed up to their rule book then dosent that mean that The US are Human Rights violators? (apart from they aint in Europe and arnt signed up) , but still , shouldnt we be looking at Americans as savages and imposing sanctions or whatever , just like some of the less reputable dominions of the middle east? or even the More Respectable ones , Like Saudi Arabia , who've been quietly disapearing people recently , fund terrorism , and have a horrific record on womens rights, In fact why are they the respectable ones ? ... oh yeah , they have lots of cash and like to buy aeroplanes. and not the nice type of aeroplanes that take you on holiday - the ones that rain down death from the skies ....
</carriedaway>
You guessed wrong. It's the European Convention on Human Rights, a treaty drafted by the Council of Europe and signed in 1950, large swathes of which were written by Brits. This pre-dates the Treaty of Rome (in 1957) and thus the EEC, later EU by several years. The other 'ECHR', teh court that arbitrates over the convention is usually abbreviated to ECtHR to distinguish it, and also is not an EU body.
The signatories to the ECHR include all EU member states (it is a precondition to joining the EU), as well as several other countries, for example former Balkan states, Russia, Greenland, etc., but, as you correctly observe, not the US.
The bit concerning the death penalty is Protocol 6:
A mild punishment that doesn't prevent him getting an honest job.
In some cases it may have a rehabilitation benefit too because it reduces the probability of offenders associating with trouble makers or being in a position to commit opportunistic crime.
In this case we don't know from the reporting if that's relevant, but it does look like just a cheap sentencing option.
They should first be required to provide full restitution to all their victims. Nothing about this was noted among what happened in either country. If they are unable to do that, their jail terms should be longer ones. Clearly, the penalty is inadequate unless the result is that no one ever tries that sort of thing ever again; anything less is not actually working as a deterrent.
I've always thought that criminals should first and foremost be made to pay damages to their victims, meaning at least 100% of what their victims lost, whenever possible. Then, of course, they pay the cost of their court case, whatever that may be.
They get out of jail when they've paid up. If they can't pay (because they killed the victim), they never get out.
Seems to me that would simplify things greatly. Judge and jury must only find guilt. If guilty, definition of the amount to pay with the previous guidelines. No mucking about with how many years for a murder vs how many for purse-snatching. You're in until you've cleared your debt to society and that's all.
And, since you clear your debt on prison terms, son of rich daddy gets to stay in as long as son of cobbler for the same amount of debt. No external funding allowed.
Make them clean social media.
Who wants the job of reviewing posts on Facebook et al, for kiddie pr0nz, graphic violence, etc? No one wants that job but there are folk out there that have to do it. Could you imagine having to do that for a living, day-in day-out? We need "Sin Eaters" but it's an important role which has a high burn-out rate of some fine, upstanding individuals that volunteer themselves to take a psychological digital bullet for the greater good.
Make these clowns clean social media so that decent people don't have to be subject to the horrors of the internet for a job. It would be the digital equivalent of picking litter whilst wearing an orange jumpsuit. In fact, make them wear the orange jumpsuit while they're at it.
"No one wants that job but there are folk out there that have to do it."
Some people seem to take on those tasks voluntarily - possibly bolstering their self-identity as being one of the "good" people. There was a policeman who specialised in such cases. When he took a staff cutting early retirement he was then re-employed in effectively the same role as a civilian. Personally I would have thought that he would have been glad to get out.
It often seems that there should be syndrome labelled as "Red Dragon" - which our ancestors called "set a thief to catch a thief".
I'm getting about eight scam calls a day, all from India. The latest one is from the "Telephone Preference Scheme", they say that I need to renew my subscription. (with my credit card!)
If I'm in a good mood* I will string them along for a while then ask if their children or parents know that they're a criminal. (family "honour" and all that)
At that point they hang up and hopefully I have ruined their day.
*Not very often due to hearing Trump talking bullshit again. Just seeing his traitorous face is making me depressed.
"If I'm in a good mood* I will string them along for a while then ask if their children or parents know that they're a criminal."
Mother-in-law is a good one for people from the subcontinent. Telling one of them that his MIL would probably demand the dowry back if she knew how he earned his money caused him to become almost incandescent with rage.
"And if they answer, "Who do you think taught me to do this?"
Funny you should say that. It made me think. I don't recall any scam/survey call from someone with an Indian sounding accent being from a woman. It's always men. Has anyone here had an Indian woman phone scamming them before?
"Not very often due to hearing Trump talking bullshit again"
Interesting interview with one of Trump's golfing partners.
Quote:
“They say that if you cheat at golf, you cheat at business. I’m pretty sure he pays his caddie well, since no matter how far into the woods he hits the ball, it’s in the middle of the fairway when we get there.”
A similar system is used in many local jail systems in the US (including my hometown). For minor offenses (we're talking maybe a week or two at most), an option is there to serve the time in stages to allow the offender to continue working, especially if a breadwinner. If the offender is unemployed, the option doesn't need to be presented.
" Partly because the prisons are full, it's a kind of suspended sentence."
I do wonder if the prisons are full because extended use of ASBOs, conditional discharges, tagging etc. has given them so many don't-get-into-jail-free cards that by the time their offending has reached a count where jail starts to be used they're already recidivists and from then on the jail gate is effectively fitted with a revolving door.
I do wonder if the prisons are full because...
None of those reasons; they're full because despite the population increasing, prison capacity has not been increased, mostly because of our government's ideological war on public service spending, which ends up costing more than it saves, both in monetary terms and also in social cost.
Add to this the increased cost of living for the poorest in society, which leads to people turning to crime to survive, as well as increased homelessness, which leads to an increase in drug and alcohol dependency and the crime that goes with this.
Oh, and don't forget cuts to policing, so the police no longer have the funds to spend effectively on crime prevention.
But hey, look over there! It's some posh-sounding sociopath from the 1910s telling us all how all the ills of our society are due to some evil plan from the continent, and in no way the fault of his own party's policies (and his own voting record)...
"
What good is a curfew to a phone/computer scammer?
"
Nothing as regards to preventing that type of crime. It is however a punishment that for some people is pretty severe. No clubbing or pubbing or hanging out with friends. But for others who usually stay at home, it is no punishment at all. Similar to prison - some people see it as a minor stint of no great concern, while for others it is completely unbearable.
One thing is that tagging is unlikely to punish the offender's family, while prison is often worse for the inmate's wife & kids than it is for the criminal.
"Some of the victims are people who are nervous and lack knowledge that you plainly obtained. They are vulnerable to be scammed like they were by people operating for you. You simply didn’t care what was happening.”
Scammers count on people having a lack of knowledge so they can make their money.
Too soft for my liking, strip them of their assets and then throw them in jail for a few years at the very least.
These scumbags are predators. As with all predators they choose victims that are not their equal in strength. In other words, they want to come out of any and all encounters, unscathed and the winner. Scamming fits the profile. Their motivation is greed.
Fines are not deterrents. They are a mere financial setback. When a court sets the fine at a certain amount (probably representing what was stolen) and that can be negotiated down to a pittance, the criminal sees that as a one time increase to the cost of doing business. Profits are in the millions and most of it is hidden away in shell companies in tax free havens.
II prefer tagging the grunts.and jail time for the bosses. The tag needs to be worn around the neck, not on the ankle and 5 years jail time for every million stolen. I am not a proponent of hanging, flogging or electric chairs. Prison is hell for bottom feeders..
I firmly believe that a greedy person is never rehabilitated. Greed is baked in.
Few problems. First, shaming can have the same effect as things like three strikes: drive criminals to desperation and rampage. Second, people savvy enough to shelter money probably also know hoe to play politics. Third, what do we do with the innocent people dependent on them: the wives and children?
Judges seem to regard computer-related crime as something apart from other common crimes. In this case of using deception to access someone's computer in order to defraud them the crime appears, to me at least, to be most similar to "distraction burglary". Where the scammers fool someone into giving them access to their home by posing as police officers or utility workers. The sentencing guidelines for distraction burglary indicate that this should be a Category 1 or 2 offence with a sentence of 6 to 13 years depending on severity. I'd also argue that being in a company and having pre-planned the incident should add "gang membership" and "organised crime" elements to the sentencing decision.
This makes Vadgama's sentence look like a mild rebuke rather than appropriate to the type of crime and the distress caused.
For the last 35 years or so, Republican and some Democrat congresspersons have refused to increase fines with inflation. The result is that fines that were something of a deterrent 30 years ago are now a slap on the wrist.
(Sherlock would not approve.)
When I'm bored I let these scammers remote access a VM of Windows.
One time they uploaded a batch script that changed the home screen of the internet browser(s) in the registry as well as creating a Visual Basic script warning of infection.
I uploaded it to Git Hub here: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/e97cbec040bad06c14c087744d793289
(The site was taken down that loaded the graphics of infection)
(I altered the file extension to .txt )