back to article There are other, legal ways to nab Microsoft emails, privacy groups remind Supremes

Allowing Uncle Sam to seize emails stored in Microsoft's Irish data centre would violate foreign data protection laws and risk setting a damaging precedent, the US Supreme Court has been told. In briefs filed in the long-running dispute, IBM and international campaign groups argued that the government does have other ways of …

  1. imanidiot Silver badge

    Yes, well, however...

    Doing it legally would requires having lots of paperwork and proof and probable cause and all that. Which means having to do actual work...

  2. Adrian 4

    It sucks when you have to remind the government of what the law is.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I'm pretty sure the US government *does* know what the law is. It's just that in this case it's in its own interest to be able to work its way around it- either by legal or by quasi-legal means.

  3. DCFusor

    Sucks even more when they think US law is THE law everywhere, and not just for the US. As if they even followed US law in the US...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      America Fuck Yeah

      Try turning the tables and applying this overreach back on US soil, and see what kind of reception you get. 'Self-awareness' is not something that America does! They don't even see the knock-on affects of this on other industries, or how their bully tactics here along with fury over US Border control invasive slurp, are reaching a tipping point... The World is sending a message, but whose listening. The Reds / Blues don't even listen to each other. This is a key Fall of Rome moment folks:

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-17/how-to-reverse-america-s-foreign-tourist-problem

    2. The Nazz

      It sucks even more when the industries beseeching the Court are the very ones doing exactly what they warn against, violating other countries laws, peoples privacy and data.

      Aside from the fact that other more usual methods are available.

  4. kars1997

    Part of me wants the DoJ to win this case. It would prompt providers to move more legal entities and data centers to Europe, providing a nice economic boost.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      "Part of me wants the DoJ to win this case. It would prompt providers to move more legal entities and data centers to Europe, providing a nice economic boost."

      Isn't the point of the DoJ case that MS already created a separate, independent Irish subsidiary and MS US where the warrant was served have no power over MS Ireland where the data is specifically to comply with local laws?

  5. James 51

    I wonder why the the US seems hell bent on this course of action. It is obviously about establishing the principle (same with bypassing encrption on apple phones). They can get what they want legally if they will just ask for it.

    1. Mark 85

      Not the US per se but the DoJ, FBI, etc. They want to be above the law and not have to answer for their doings. Procedures are in place but this really smacks of a power struggle.

  6. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "Meanwhile, IBM said that it could damage US cloud providers' business prospects."

    Or just tell it like it is: it could damage the US's ability hang on to large parts of its tech industry if the companies that make up that industry are forced to conclude that they can no longer operate from US soil.

  7. kain preacher

    "This is crucial to the case because the US government has argued that Microsoft has the sole power to choose where it stores data, and should be able to migrate it back to the US, to hand it over to the government."

    Except for in countries that says Data about their citizens must not leave their country

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "and should be able to migrate it back to the US"

      Which would breach EU law unless they have explicit subject permission him move it.

    2. GrumpyKiwi

      While I totally agree with your comment, in this instance apparently the data owner is a US citizen, not an EU one.

      1. KjetilS

        Which does not matter, because the data is protected by EU law the second it enters the EU.

        EU law protects *everyone*, EU citizen or not.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If this grab gets approved does that mean that other countries can make data grabs from data stored in the US? After all what is good for the goose id good for the gander.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Exactly

      My company happens to own a US company which is also a government/military supplier. US made its best to put as many hurdles as possible to ensure the owning company can't access data and manage effectively the owned company. If the court rule in DoJ direction, it means my company can move all the US data to its country?

    2. veti Silver badge

      Ask Laurie Love.

  9. Aitor 1

    Sue the judge, maybe?

    The irish should prosecute the judge for incitement... that would be fun.

    I have no clue about how the Irish laws work, but to my untrained eye, this seems to be the case.. can someone tell me if this is a correct interpretation?

    1. Remy Redert

      Re: Sue the judge, maybe?

      Can't sue a US judge on US soil for actions taken in the US. They can fine Microsoft for illegally releasing information if any of the information is considered private under Irish law.

      If the Supreme Court sides with the FBI, this should also scupper the privacy figleaf and possibly cause a mass exodus of tech companies from the US.

      1. The Nazz

        Re: Sue the judge, maybe?

        If the Irish can't be arsed to bill Apple for the $13bn owed, what chance fining MS for releasing some private data?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Sue the judge, maybe?

        "They can fine Microsoft for illegally releasing information if any of the information is considered private under Irish law"

        They can imprison company officers too.

      3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Sue the judge, maybe?

        "a mass exodus of tech companies from the US."

        Only if they think they can survive in the Rest of the World market without the US market. I'd bet that most US tech companies make most of their money at home, cloudy stuff being only part of their business. It may result in "fire sales" of their foreign subsiduaries though.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Sue the judge, maybe?

          "Only if they think they can survive in the Rest of the World market without the US market."

          Companies already based in the rest of the world survive; the rest of the world is bigger than you think. There'd be nothing to stop an ex-US company setting up a US subsidiary to deal with that market or just coming to a franchise arrangement with some little locally owned outfit.

      4. kain preacher

        Re: Sue the judge, maybe?

        Not sue but indite and ask to extradite the Jude for ordering MS to violate Irish law.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Dear America,

    Kindly, fuck off.

    Love & Kisses,

    The Civilised World

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Have a care!

      The people who live on the continent that lies between the Pacific and the Atlantic all regard themselves as American, and roll their eyes over the rest of the world (especially USAians) using the word "America" to refer to just the United States of America.

      So to their ears your post is directed at rather more people than you intended. It's the equivalent of someone saying Dear Europe, kindly fuck off, when of course they'd meant to refer to the French.

      1. Tom 38

        Re: Have a care!

        Do you think that if you wander in to Mexico City and ask a local "son americanos?" he will say "si" or "non, mexicanos"?

  11. mark l 2 Silver badge

    Perhaps its time that Microsoft spun of its Irish data centre operation as a separate legal entity so that they could say that the US parent company has no say over the Irish part and the DOJ needs to deal with the Irish company directly.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Perhaps its time that Microsoft spun of its Irish data centre operation as a separate legal entity"

      It already is.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I half think we should let this precedent get set. The result will be US businesses unable to provide IT services to the rest of the world. For European companies, it'll basically be impossible to use a US IT provider because of the DPA, regardless of where that data is stored. So long O365, Dynamics, Google Docs, Apple Cloud.

    What's more likely (I honestly don't know):

    - European companies move to European services that are DPA compliant

    - US companies move to Europe where they can provide DPA compliant services and still cater to the US customers (European DPA laws are US compatible I believe, but not vice-versa?)

    Either way, the US will have blown it's own legs off, since all that money is now in Europe and the only way they can get to our data is through the already established official channels they're trying to work around.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The root of the problem, not where it grows to

    Microsoft also registers itself as different companies in different countries, i.e Australia, this gives a certain degree of legal separation to the main company in the US. I am not sure which company the US is dealing with.

    For a US based Microsoft and US cloud I agree with the US government, that it is Microsoft's prerogative to put data where it wants, if the cloud is based in the US and extends to another country then Microsoft can move it where they wish. If the cloud was based in Ireland it would be another issue. The US might then be able to access any data on servers situated upon US soil.

    I think it is reasonable for the cloud user to know what the consequences are of having their data not situated in the base country and what risks it would pose in those cases.

    It goes to transparency of product.

  14. Velv
    Go

    I wonder how the DoJ would respond if the Canadian government demand Blackberry hand over data on American citizens hosted in data centres in the USA?

    Isn’t Blackerry the device of choice by US politicians?

  15. Chronigan

    How does this work in the physical space?

    If a company is being investigated and there are physical records, i.e. words on paper documents stored in a vault on foreign soil, and a warrant is provided to that company to produce those documents, can the company simply refuse?

    Is it just me or is this step backwards to secret bank accounts, tax havens, and countries that make a name for themselves as havens for outlaws.

    Do not fool yourself, this is not microsoft fighting for the little guy or privacy. This is about microsoft refusing to turn over evidence of user's of their services criminal wrong doing so that they can keep them as customers.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Cloud...

    Other people's computers the US government agencies have access to

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