back to article America restarts dodgy spying program – just as classified surveillance abuse memo emerges

The US Senate reauthorized a controversial NSA spying program on Thursday – and then, because it's 2018 and nothing matters any more, embarked on a partisan battle over a confidential memo that outlines Uncle Sam's alleged abuse of surveillance powers. The so-called section 702 FISA snooping system, renewed this week, has been …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The 'Mock' in Democracy

    "Intelligence services have fiercely disputed any suggestion that the extraordinary powers they possess have ever been used in anything but the most honest fashion. You know, cracking down on anti-West terror bad guys."

    No matter where you are, democracy (whatever that used to mean) is being corrupted. The Corrupt Politicians look more like the terrorists now. Whereas the official T's, are just a violent cult being used as a distraction.

    After all do the math... What's the odds one succumbs to a crim with a gun or a terror attack? Now which stats do corrupt governments sell-as-real???

    Who'd want to be an Investigative-Journalist / Human-Rights-Activist / Whistleblower / Protestor etc, in this climate. Its the very same game of deception in the good-ol UK of USA:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41651840

    1. Eddy Ito
      Facepalm

      Re: The 'Mock' in Democracy

      I think Senator Feinstein should win a mockery medal. Here's her twaddle feed a few hours before voting for this travesty.

      Note: As a Sud Californican, I'm not at all surprised.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The 'Mock' in Democracy

        Or "Rock" as in Rockwell

        Rockwell - Somebody's Watching Me

  2. Shadow Systems

    I want off this rock...

    I'd even risk having to listen to Vogon poetry if they offered a lift. =-(

    1. David 132 Silver badge

      Re: I want off this rock...

      "Oh freddled gruntbuggly, thy micturations are to me,

      as plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee..."

      Never mind the Vogons, I'd listen to recitations by the Azgoths of Kria (Grunthos the Flatulent, RIP) if it would get me a lift off this planet.

      Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings' stuff, on the other hand... *shudder*

  3. Hstubbe

    Good, let the yankees have some of their own medicine. US spying on the rest of the world, yankees don't care. US spying on their own citizens, the rest of the world really couldn't care less. Eat your own dog food, yankees.

    1. Rob D.

      Doublethink

      What is bizarre/ironic/entirely normal though, is that some of the American lawmakers (Reps only?) are simultaneously both vehemently for it (702 for 6 more glorious years) and vehemently against it (how could you spy on those all-American Trump folks).

      It's gonna be a great year.

    2. HieronymusBloggs

      "Eat your own dog food, yankees."

      I take it you're a Southerner.

      1. Daniel Garcia 2

        YANKEE, n. In Europe, an American. In the Northern States of our Union, a New Englander. In the Southern States the word is unknown. (See DAMNYANK.)

        Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1906

        1. Agamemnon
          Pint

          Anyone who quotes Ambrose Bierce is pretty much good in my book. Especially when it's used to point out that pretty much everyone's got it wrong.

          Beer for you.

    3. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Help is Available for Any Such Condition/All Such Situations. *

      Whenever the real danger is recognised to be a rabid Uncle Sam devouring its young to maintain the right to retain and restrain ancient secrets, is that a Greater IntelAIgent Games Changer

      *You do Know How and Who and What When and Where to Call for Affirmative ProAction and NEUKlearer HyperRadioProACTive IT Systems Services? Or are Available Helpers to Assume and Presume Stellar Lead with Novel Trails to Seed and Tail/Mentor and Monitor .......... and advise All in plain text as is being done right here, for its ease of transcription, and news propagation into any other mothered tongue/alien script, so as to Easily Create a Greater Singular United Future Mission for Extra-Terrestrial Travel in Virtualised AIdVentures ......... which to Codes in XSSXXXX be Heavenly Tasks which would Perfectly Tempt a St Anthony.:-)

      Or you can simply ignore that invitation to actively participate and be prepared to spectate and wonder in the silent majority at the events as they are unrolled before you ....... on your ubiquitous media streaming devices ....... which are quite perfect enough tools for anyone to do anything with .... whenever so enabled.

      :-) As you can surely appreciate .... the Perfect Temptations for a St Anthony are much sort after and and rightly coveted too say avid fans of addictive attractive sins that can satisfy vices.

      1. DeKrow

        Re: Help is Available for Any Such Condition/All Such Situations. *

        So you're saying they've brought it upon themselves?

        If so, I agree, but I lament for the minority that are being swept along by the rest.

        1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

          Fundamental Situational Correction ... Lunatics in Charge of the Asylum vs AI Bombes in Nations

          So you're saying they've brought it upon themselves?

          If so, I agree, but I lament for the minority that are being swept along by the rest. .... DeKrow

          ???????? Surely, DeKrow, it is much more lamentable that the majority is being swept along and abused/misused by a few who may even consider themselves chosen and doing God's works? And the fact that it is being done knowingly is a double whammy of impudence.

          However,..... such in the future requires a continuance and continuity of pervasive ignorance to such an arrogance and would do ill-advised battle in Newly Minted Virtual Virgin Fields of Exploration and Exploitation which in ITs Beings freely share secret sensitive intelligence and enlightening information stealthily to crush with flash crashes all operating systems dependent upon such a Gross Abomination with AI Bombes in Nations.

          1. DeKrow

            Re: Fundamental Situational Correction ... Lunatics in Charge of the Asylum vs AI Bombes in Nations

            Yes, you're right, I didn't see it initially, I was one layer too low.

            It's the ultra-minority influencing the voting majority such that the informed minority are left without a voice. To quote Jeffrey Lebowski "my thinking about this case had become very uptight"

            Thanks for loosening the hinges on the doors of perception.

          2. Alistair

            Re: Fundamental Situational Correction ... Lunatics in Charge of the Asylum vs AI Bombes in Nations

            Essentially, the point you make is correct, AMFM, but it becomes less and less likely in the Good Ole' excited snakes that the education system will be able to handle correcting the drift. Even the "most educated" youth coming from the "Best Schools" have been either mollycoddled and bubble wrapped, or blatantly lied to sufficient to prevent them from being able to perceive the hypocrisy and outright lies that they've been taught. Thus they continue with the "Might is Right" and "Democracy (tm) for all" that was started back in the 1850's, and has continued with the "Velocity of Money" doctrine espoused in the mid 1940's.

  4. elDog

    You would think that the ruling (drooling) party in the US would want less scrutiny..

    But they are expecting to be able to control the investigations and where the information flows.

    But they don't know how stooopid they are. They need to rely on 21-yo interns to fire up their devices and lobbyists to interpret anything more than 2 sentences.

    ----- Oh, wait: "First, kill all lobbyists!" (Hey, PTB, this is satirical, really. Noooo - don't take my keyboard...)

  5. John Crisp

    Liar liar....

    So the guvinment illegally spied on a bunch of crooks committing crimes and who then got elected?

    Or am I missing something?

    Do they have prison cells in the US?

    1. Rob D.

      Re: Liar liar....

      Pedantically that is somewhat cart before the horse - more or less there are no serious convictions, even though I think in the court of world opinion Trump is already proven a bit of a liability.

      In exactly the same way that Trump would willingly concede Hillary Clinton is innocent despite much heated, repeated accusation, Trump et al are also in the same boat - a lot of noise, possibly convincing noise, but not proven in a court and hence innocent.

      Still 2018/2019 should provide much entertainment in this area. And I completely get where you are with the general sentiment!

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: "I think in the court of world opinion Trump is already proven a bit of a liability"

        Congratulations, sir, you have just been awarded the Understatement of the Week trophy.

        Your restraint is admirable.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Liar liar....

        Clinton and Innocent don't belong in the same context.

        She's demonstrably guilty of Perjury - gave evidence on oath that she released ALL pertinent emails from her time at State and the FBI investigation located thousands that weren't released; Obstruction of Justice - 3 days or so after a subpoena was given on her emails, 33,000 or so were deleted and scrubbed - by underlings but her responsibility; and also security violations by negligence - secure information was stored outside secure systems on her email server, and some were backed up (including to Anthony Weiner's laptop) outside that again. And those are the easy ones for which we have publicly available information.

        If you go back to Whitewater where she escaped because the statute of limitations came into force, her criminality can't be doubted. For those who think she was exonerated in Whitewater, she was involved in a criminal conspiracy to defraud a local S&L Bank and only escaped prosecution because the necessary legal records needed to unequivocally tie her to the conspiracy went inexplicably missing (physical records missing and computer records scrubbed - why does that sound familiar) and then those same billing records turned up in an unused room in the White House after the statute of limitations meant that she could no longer be prosecuted. The contents of those records showed her culpability and involvement in the conspiracy to defraud. Her co-conspirators server a number of years in prison for fraud.

        1. KSM-AZ

          Re: Liar liar....

          I'm so confused when people downvote stuff like this. Get your head out of the freking sand. Even the liberally biased media reported this stuff (On page 4, but I digress). Wake up people and think critically. Where is Sam Clemmons when you need him? Hillary is is as Dirty as Nixon ever was. Playing political strong arm is plain wrong no matter the side of the aisle you are on. Sheesh

        2. Wiltshire
          Mushroom

          Re: Liar liar....

          Not forgetting Hilary (as the Clinton Foundation) receiving millions as "donations" from Russians for allowing the sale of uranium to Russia...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Liar liar....

            Not quite correct, the payoff came from a Canadian businessman who started the whole affair off by buying stolen (abstracted perhaps) Khazak Uranium assets for a pittance - and used Bill Clinton to schmooze the Khazak President to allow the transaction to go through. For a few $M the assets went to a Canadian company, and thence through a chain of companies and a reverse takeover or two, to be sold to the Russians for $3B ort so, which is a nice profit and well worth $145M "donated" to the Clinton Foundation.

            Make no mistake, the Clinton's have been in on this from the start. If you don't know the story, you can't just dismiss it as another anti-Clinton fairy tale, there's corruption writ large, and the final Uranium transaction was just the icing on the cake, the money had mostly been made by that point, and the US assets were not the main game.

        3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: Liar liar....

          She's demonstrably guilty of Perjury

          Show me a politician who isn't. I'm sure that Gruppenfuhrer Trump may have been economincal with the truth from time to time..

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Liar liar....

            Perjury is a specific offense, not just lying but lying when under oath not to do so. It is a foundational part of our legal system.

            I get that you think Clinton should be allowed to, but why ? Aren't the public, the voters, entitled to be able to demand the truth from politicians in some cases and be able to legally sanction them if they lie in those specific circumstances ? You or I would certainly be penalized, what's so special about Hillary that she should get a free pass ?

            I'm a firm believer that if the law is to be enforced, it must be enforced against everyone. If not, you don't live in a free country but a tyranny. Even if you're OK with that, I'm not.

        4. Alistair
          Windows

          Re: Liar liar....

          @ the AC "Clinton and Innocent don't belong in the same context"

          I thought those missing records were in the basement of a pizza parlour ........

          Oh, and I have this bridge......

    2. Mark 85

      Re: Liar liar....

      Do they have prison cells in the US?

      Yes we do but not for the likes of CongressCritters, high level officials, etc. They go to a special "prison" that even has a golf course.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Liar liar....

        Guantanamo has a golf course? Who knew?

        1. Bernard M. Orwell

          Re: Liar liar....

          "Guantanamo has a golf course?"

          No,no. That's the bit labelled "Furriners Only" and has no one in it*.

          *may not be accurate.

      2. Bernard M. Orwell

        Re: Liar liar....

        "They go to a special "prison" that even has a golf course."

        Ah, that's the bit labelled "whites only".

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Liar liar....

      Yopu're missing a lot.

      It's more like a bunch of crooks with assistance from the top officials in the NSA, CIA, and FBI, spied on the opposition political campaign with the intent of influencing a US Presidential election. That campaign had no (as far as has yet been uncovered) illegality associated with it regarding contacts with foreigners yet that excuse was used to eavesdrop upon sensitive communications to assist the other camapign win.

      And they were so incompetent that although they tried to rig the election with all that high priced help, and yet they failed.

      Make no mistake, this is way bigger than Watergate. Just remember, Nixon tried to use both the IRS and the CIA against his internal opponents and was rightly widely reviled for it. Obama successfully used the IRS and the NSA/FBI/CIA etc against his opponents and .....crickets from the media and the usual chattering classes.

      Interesting snippet, Samantha Powers' name was used in hundreds of "unmasking" requests to reveal US citizens names when captured by surveillance on foreign persons - and yet she claimed under oath that she did not issue those requests - so who did ? Either she is lying (on oath) or someone else has committed a serious crime in using her name to do so.

      And one of the people at the centre of this is Rod Rosenstein of the DOJ, the assistant AG who appointed Mueller. If he is as is suspected heavily involved that will effectively invalidate Mueller's appointment and drag Mueller into this issue. His selection of other alleged conspirators (Strzok, Page, Ohr) into his team will damn that even further.

      As noted though, all the more strange that the renewal of the surveillance should get such bi-partisan support. Maybe the Republicans seek to do the same to the Democrats at the next election ?

      1. Michael Thibault

        Re: Liar liar....

        "As noted though, all the more strange that the renewal of the surveillance should get such bi-partisan support. "

        Trump has veto power on that. It would make for interesting theatre if he were to closely consider it, at his leisure.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Liar liar....

          >It would make for interesting theatre if he were to closely consider it, at his leisure.

          As long as he has his carer nearby to explain what the long words mean..

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Liar liar....

        So, more revelations about the text messages between Strzok and Page. It does rather look like a large scale corrupt set up, I do hope all the down-tickers are following the story and are getting ready for some massive disappointments when it comes out.

    4. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      Re: Liar liar....

      Do they have prison cells in the US?

      Yes, but not for politicians and rich people. Unless they annoy people with more money and politician-ness.

    5. Bernard M. Orwell

      Re: Liar liar....

      "Do they have prison cells in the US?"

      Yes, but unfortunately most of them are still labelled "blacks only".

  6. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Windows

    8 YEARS OF BUSHBAMA UBERSTATE ORGASM

    16 years of pure cancer.

    One a hapless clown. One narcissistic with a side-order of playing the race card.

    Both beholden to Drone Kills, the $ethnics and the Deep State (the very concept of which has been declared as un-american crimethink by such esteemed propaganda outlets as the NYT)

    What should one expect? That liberty rings?

    The only amazing thing is that some people believe that the "russian investigation" clownshow has any grounding in any objective reality whatsoever.

    But dumb fucks can be found anywhere.

    Just be thankful for the slight Trumpian respite. Having The Hillary of Babylon at the helm would have meant immediate borking of everything, and smooth takeover by literally Satan himself, likely followed by a neocon-cheered war with Russia. 4 years of delayed end is nothing to be sneered at.

    1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
      Paris Hilton

      Re: 8 YEARS OF BUSHBAMA UBERSTATE ORGASM

      Not sure if serious.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 8 YEARS OF BUSHBAMA UBERSTATE ORGASM

        Why not ? It's perfectly correct - as much as you Obama groupies don't want to acknowledge it. He was a prime, A grade, fuckwit, from start to finish.

    2. Roger Kynaston
      Pint

      Re: 8 YEARS OF BUSHBAMA UBERSTATE ORGASM

      I should like to nominate this person for flame of the week.

      Beer for the weekend and getting hammered seems the best thing to do in these interesting times.

    3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: 8 YEARS OF BUSHBAMA UBERSTATE ORGASM

      Forgot you dried frog pills Bursar?

    4. DryBones

      Re: 8 YEARS OF BUSHBAMA UBERSTATE ORGASM

      Unsure if satire or not.

      Really, that's the big problem with all this, is that you hear and read some people that say this sort of thing like they'd be waving a bible if they'd remembered to bring one with them.

  7. Lysenko

    Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

    Obviously, you're still in the NKVD NSA firing line if you're routed over American (or compromised) infrastructure, but at least your data will be 'secure' once it hits the DC. You'll still be a risk of FSB and PLA snooping of course, but last time I checked those organisations weren't firing off extradition requests all over the planet, kidnapping people off Italian streets or asserting that Chinese court orders supercede Irish data protection laws.

    1. Uffish

      Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

      Sorry, China is a great place full of great people but it is a shame that it is run by a despotic system of government. I prefer democracy, even the version currently existing in the USA.

      1. Lysenko

        Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

        I prefer democracy too. That means I prefer that someone sitting in Milton Keynes is subject to laws of England & Wales, as enacted by a democratically elected Parliament, and not subject to laws passed by a US Congress (which is an entirely undemocratic body from the perspective of a UK citizen who doesn't get to vote).

        That's the position in Russian. If you're sitting in Smolensk and decide to pen-test the Pentagon the only relevant law is that passed by the Duma of the Russian Federation. American law is an irrelevance to Russian Courts because it is a basic pillar of democracy that you have a say (a vote) regarding the laws you are subject to. Pretensions of extra-territorial jurisdiction are fundamentally anti-democratic.

        If the Americans can extradite you based on an offence under US law that wasn't committed on US territory then that's identical (in principle) to Tehran or Riyhad claiming universal jurisdiction regarding blasphemy or Thailand extraditing me if I say something uncomplimentary about their King.

        1. DavCrav

          Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

          "That's the position in Russian. If you're sitting in Smolensk and decide to pen-test the Pentagon the only relevant law is that passed by the Duma of the Russian Federation. American law is an irrelevance to Russian Courts because it is a basic pillar of democracy that you have a say (a vote) regarding the laws you are subject to. Pretensions of extra-territorial jurisdiction are fundamentally anti-democratic."

          Ah, so what about killing people in London? Is that a nice thing to do? Shouldn't Britain get its justice too?

          1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

            Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba and Great Game News for Knights of the Virtual Realm

            If you're sitting in Smolensk and decide to pen-test the Pentagon the only relevant law is that passed by the Duma of the Russian Federation. ....... DavCrav

            If in the likes of Smolensk, is pen-testing the Pentagon against any Duma of the Russian Federation law and criminal activity? Or is such a facility/utility naturally considered and treated as a Superior Remote State Command and Control Asset for Support and Sponsoring/Import for Export?

            1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

              Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba and Great Game News for Knights of the Virtual Realm

              Are there any here who be Emboldened and Think Themselves Perfectly Qualified to Venture a Virtual Opinion on the Matter shared from the Above Pen-Test?

              As a Practical Invisible Weapon is IT Virtually Invincible and Almighty.

              And that makes its IT Extremely Valuable and Priceless to Markets/Regular and Irregular Rogue State and Non State Actors.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

          If the Americans can extradite you based on an offence under US law that wasn't committed on US territory

          Are you saying that the place an offence is committed is always limited to the place where the *offender* was physically located, rather than the *victim*?

          If someone hacks into a computer which is on US soil, then something in the US was damaged. It's not hard to argue that the offence itself took place on US soil.

          Not that physical location always matters to the US, when more abstract concepts like citizenship take over (when it comes to taxation anyway).

          1. Lysenko

            Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

            Are you saying that the place an offence is committed is always limited to the place where the *offender* was physically located, rather than the *victim*?

            Yes. Otherwise, a person in Kabul exposed to and injured by your (hypothetical) disparaging comments regarding a prophet of God has a perfect right to demand your extradition and execution. An injury inflicted in one country from the territory of another is an inter-governmental matter that should be dealt with according to the laws of the originating country; that's how the US First Amendment trumps [sic] Afghan blasphemy law.

      2. c1ue

        Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

        Era, remind me again:

        Which nation has grown 15x faster than the other over the past 33 years?

        And which nation has had the vast majority of its citizens' incomes flat to declining over the past 2 decades plus?

        "Freedom" evidently has a very high price.

        1. DeKrow

          Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

          I was informed it was a buck o five.

      3. DeKrow

        Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

        China is the asymptote to the US' trajectory

    2. DavCrav

      Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

      "but last time I checked those organisations weren't firing off extradition requests all over the planet, kidnapping people off Italian streets or asserting that Chinese court orders supercede Irish data protection laws."

      Are you actually serious? The man accused of killing Alexander Litvinenko in London, Lugovoy, actually sits in the Russian parliament. China has been documented kidnapping people in Thailand, not to mention the leaned-on deportations of Taiwanese citizens in Kenya that look an awful lot like kidnap.

      So I don't know when you last checked, but you didn't do a very good job of it.

      1. Lysenko

        Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

        Are you actually serious? The man accused of killing Alexander Litvinenko in London, Lugovoy, actually sits in the Russian parliament.

        Reprehensible though that is, it is still a case of the Russian Government (probably) taking action against a Russian Citizen, albeit extra-territorially. I'm not defending that in any way, but it is markedly different to abducting a German citizen in Macedonia and torturing him in Afghanistan.

        Anything an elected government does to its own citizens (like lethal injections) has some potential cover of democracy and legality; extra-territorial actions against citizens of foreign countries have none.

        When you have an example of the FSB snatching a Frenchman with no connection to Russia off the streets of Lisbon and secretly flying him to a Syrian air force base and torturing him, then you'll have an equivalence to American lawlessness, not before.

        1. DavCrav

          Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

          "Reprehensible though that is, it is still a case of the Russian Government (probably) [a public enquiry concluded that this was true, beyond reasonable doubt, stop FUDding] taking action against a Russian Citizen, albeit extra-territorially. I'm not defending that in any way, but it is markedly different to abducting a German citizen in Macedonia and torturing him in Afghanistan.

          ...

          When you have an example of the FSB snatching a Frenchman with no connection to Russia off the streets of Lisbon and secretly flying him to a Syrian air force base and torturing him, then you'll have an equivalence to American lawlessness, not before."

          I gave several examples of the Chinese government doing exactly that. And if you think the death of Matthew Puncher (who investigated Litvinenko's murder) of multiple stab wounds was suicide, as it was ruled, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's amazing how many people commit suicide around the Russian government's actions, isn't it?

          Give it up. The Russian government murders dozens of people abroad, just accept that they and China are the worst major governments in the world. The US, UK, etc., aren't shining beacons of glory, but to pretend that Russia and China aren't beyond the pale is just ridiculous.

          "Anything an elected government does to its own citizens (like lethal injections) has some potential cover of democracy and legality; extra-territorial actions against citizens of foreign countries have none."

          Not really. You shouldn't get to run around the UK killing people. It's just not cricket. We have laws too.

      2. theDeathOfRats

        Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

        "... China has been documented kidnapping people in Thailand, not to mention..."

        Teacheeeer! But, they are, like, kidnapping peopleeee. Why can't I kidnap people tooooo!

        Sadly, this doesn't seem to be a joke so, no icon.

    3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      Re: Good news for Yandex and AliBaba

      isk of FSB and PLA snooping of course, but last time I checked those organisations weren't firing off extradition requests all over the planet

      No - they (FSB) prefer slightly more... direct action.

      Polonium tea anyone?

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Terminator

    There is literally nothing decent in this story

    A bit of historical context: Executive Order 12949.

    Read it, and read who issued it and signed it, and when. And then you'll get an idea for how long this has been going on, behind the scenes. Looooooooong before the USA PATRIOT Act.

    1. Teiwaz

      Re: There is literally nothing decent in this story

      And then you'll get an idea for how long this has been going on, behind the scenes. Looooooooong before the USA PATRIOT Act.

      Not that long before, I was expecting Mr Washington or Mr Lincoln on the bottom for that length of 'Looooooong', that was only a 'Looong's worth.

      Someone must have told Mr Clinton it was a signature was required for Executive relief, or a young lady was kneeling under the table giving him an executive and he's have signed anything at that point.

    2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: There is literally nothing decent in this story

      There is something decent, or their could be if there's recognition that some things might need to change. I think this is part "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", and part modern politics.

      In an ideal world. Law enforcement and the security services are given the tools they need to investigate breaches of laws created by politicians. Surveillance is part of that toolbox, and politicians should not be above the law. After all, they're eminently corruptable.

      But with great powers comes great responsibility, ie it needs watchmen who can impartially rule on legality, and the watchmen should be scrupulously neutral. Political fallout may be a consideration, but fundamental principle should be if laws have been broken or not.

      And now there's the indecent aspects of this story. So it seems senior law enforcement officials may have used their positions in an attempt to influence US elections to favor their candidate, and cover up illegal activity. Regardless of whether an American's tinged red or blue, this should be a problem. It's also not entirely suprising given senior Federal positions are often political appointments, so there's strong incentives to be partisan rather than neutral.

      Question is whether there's a willingness for the US to change, and for Americans to regain trust in their political system.

  9. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Get into IT AI ProgramMING with Mined IntelAIgent Network Games

    Wake up! Smell the Cocoa! The Rule is there are no Rules for Wannabe Rulers. And for Absolute Rule, No Wannabe Rulers.

    Do as you are told and/or mindlessly and mindfully programmed, and you are a follower of virtually anonymous leaders beyond your ken? Yes, you most certainly are.

  10. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Coat

    So much for the Land of the Free

    I pledge allegiance to the Flag

    of the United States of America,

    and to the Oligarchy for which it stands,

    one Nation under the NSA,

    lobbied for,

    with surveillance and snooping for all

  11. Ken Hagan Gold badge

    Dear America

    For your next president, choose a person who is honest, passably intelligent, willing to listen to advice, familiar with your Constitution, and fully persuaded of the need to uphold it.

    You have got one of those, haven't you?

    If they possess the aforementioned qualities, their political leanings don't actually matter.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dear America

      Campaigning for Oprah already?

      Can't be as bad a the current POTUS IMHO.

      {This post probably breaks a number of US Laws that already apply to the whole planet}

      1. Roj Blake Silver badge

        Re: Dear America

        Bernie Sanders 2020.

    2. Arthur the cat Silver badge

      Re: Dear America

      For your next president, choose a person who is honest, passably intelligent, willing to listen to advice, familiar with your Constitution, and fully persuaded of the need to uphold it.

      You have got one of those, haven't you?

      Paging Mr Diogenes. Will Mr Diogenes please bring his lamp to the US as soon as possible, and definitely before 2020.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Dear America

        For your next president, choose a person who is honest, passably intelligent, willing to listen to advice, familiar with your Constitution

        Siri for president ?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dear America

      You have got one of those, haven't you?

      Things aren't better elsewhere. The UK has a gormless idiot without the slightest whiff of competence or judgement as prime minister, and regardless of the outcome of the next election will continue to have that situation. France is run by a disgusting opportunist. Most of southern Europe isn't run at all. German and Austria's political establishments are thrashing around trying to avoid the growth of right wing nationalism. Australia doesn't appear any better off than the UK in terms of privacy and common sense. The EU power brokers are nothing more that a club of fat old crooks lining their own pockets whilst trampling on the concept of democracy.

      All of this is about only two things, in the big picture: The dishonesty, self serving and functional failure of career politicians to serve their electors, and the negative impacts of corporate globalisation (de-industralisation, offshoring, migration, inequality).

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Dear America

        About the only political leadership who seem to be intent on actually leading their country are the Chinese !

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If you've done nothing wrong then you've nothing to hide ..

    If you've done nothing wrong then you've nothing to hide, just who is going to protect us from you?

  13. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Gimp

    Note the timing of the release of that document *very* carefully.

    Con-gresspeople seem to think this is OK as long as they "control" these people.

    They simply don't get it.

    No one controls data fetishists.

    You could make a case that for data fetishists "democracy," even of the kind practices in the US is the enemy.

    "How dare elected representatives ask how many US citizens we spy on, like they have some right to know such things.*"

    *As one of them might put it to their friends.

  14. teknopaul

    if they can they do

    I have long held the opinion that if the government of any nation can do xx spying technique they are doing it.

    Snowdon showed this to be a pretty solid stance to take now and going forward.

    Its useless to debate spying in the public space since it goes in private.

    Need to concentrate, not on making sure that they do not spy on you, but that thay cannot spy on you.

  15. 2StrokeRider

    As usual, a clueless "journalist" with an axe to grind and a flair for ignoring the facts. 18 Democrats and 41 Republicans voted for cloture, which closed debate and brought the bill to an almost guaranteed passing.

    There is a lot of blame in that swamp. The bill needed a complete overhaul, instead, Dems and Repubs alike voted to keep as is....fully knowing that the Obama administration had wildly abused it to spy on Trump.

    And if you think it's just US services spying on you, you're happily in your pod in the matrix. Me personally, don't do anything they care about. If you do, the onus on protecting your privacy is on you.

    1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      A.N.Other Look at the Problem from the Alien Flip Side

      Me personally, don't do anything they care about. If you do, the onus on protecting your privacy is on you. ..... 2StrokeRider

      Do anything and/or everything they care about and the onus on protecting their privacy and your secrets is theirs, methinks.

      And, 2StrokeRider, just the fact that you visit and comment on threads which are sharing future secrets for meritocratic technocrats of a certain hue to exploit and expand upon, makes you a person of interest to be more closely surveilled because of what you will be having sight of.

    2. JohnFen

      "if you think it's just US services spying on you"

      As an American, I don't think this for a minute. But honestly, I don't care nearly as much about being spied on by foreign states as I do about being spied on by the US government or corporations of any nationality.

      There's relatively low potential for harm to me if, say, China spies on me. There's a great deal of potential harm to me if the US government or any corporation does the same.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why are they wasting time spying on the population when the real threat to world peace has always been the orange one they elected ?

  17. Jove Bronze badge

    Naive

    More from the naively altruistic.

    Not all are equal; the level of engagement with reality being the delimiter.

  18. alain williams Silver badge

    Presumably we are all safe for a few days ...

    while the government of the USA is in lock-down as the Senate did not pass the new budget. Thus everyone at the NSA has gone home.

    OK: I know, but it is nice to occasionally dream ...

  19. Mikel

    Responsible observation

    "That eavesdropping fits very squarely within the remit of FISA, which allows US spies to intercept the communications of American citizens if they are seen to be communicating with foreign intelligence targets."

    Yes. When foreign spies are conspiring with your political candidates to overthrow your government, that is squarely within the remit of the "National Security Agency" by definition.

    1. tom dial Silver badge

      Re: Responsible observation

      It might be premature to describe what is publicly known as "foreign spies ... conspiring with your political candidates to overthrow your government." The last time I looked there were two indictments for activities unrelated to any political campaign that, in addition, took place well before the 2016 presidential election cycle began, and two for lying to FBI agents about activities that may be open to question but are not illegal on their face.

      There probably will be more to come, and some of it may go over the limit of what is legal. Technically, Flynn may have exposure here, but under a law on the books for over 200 years that, as far as I know, never has been used in a successful prosecution despite quite a few fairly recent opportunities. We certainly need to attend to this and let both the special prosecutor's and various congressional investigations run their respective courses., but constant whipping up of hysteria is unlikely to be beneficial.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Responsible observation

      Funny, there's zero evidence for any conspiracy between the Trump campaign and any Russians, and quite significant evidence that the Clinton campaign along with the FBI and the Obama administration colluded with Russians to rig the election and hence overthrow the government.

      Perhaps the surveillance should have been used to listen to what the Clinton campaign, Simpson of Fusion GPS, Christopher Steele, and Bruce Ohr (and his wife who was employed by Fusion to work on the Trump "dossier"), Peter Strzok, Rod Rosenstein, and others in the FBI and DOJ were talking about, no ? And just what WAS that "insurance policy" that Strzok and others discussed with McCabe in the deputy director of the FBI's office - could it be a plan to invoke a special counsel enquiry into Russian collusion after the election ? Isn't that treason ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Terminator

        Re: Responsible observation

        Speaking of Responsible observations:

        I have responsibly observed that, every time there's a bit a news that paint a negative or suspicious light on Trump, the Trump campaign, Trump campaign associates and their suspected connections to the Russian Government, or Russian Intelligence Services, there is a not insignificant number of very eager Anonymous Cowards who take it upon themselves to muddy the waters with blatant whatabout-ism efforts.

        Just a Responsible Observation.

        Insofar as why NSA was listening on Sergey Kislyak's phone, and why it intercepted communications between Kislyak and Michael T. Flynn: because that's why NSA was invented in the first place. That's their job.

  20. KYDBO

    We need the Bureau of Sabotage

    Time has long passed for such and entity.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "the FBI used foreign-intelligence-gathering FISA laws to tap the communications of key Trump campaign staff who were in touch with Kremlin officials."

    I think you've got your allegations mixed up there Reg.

    Dems say FBI were spying on trump staff with links to Kremlin - although the only link published so far that I can find is Trump Jr turning up to a dodgy meeting with a Russian lawyer (who also had links to the dodgy dossier) which now apparently was all set up the Clinton/DNC.

    GOP say FBI were spying on Trump himself, authorised by Obama, based on evidence gathered in the dodgy dossier, which has now been widely discredited and may have actually have been commissioned by various bad actors (including the Clintons and McCain) purely for the purpose of being used as evidence to authorise the FISA spying on Trump.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Basically correct, if Trump was conspiring with Russians, where's the evidence ? It's been over a year since the election and nothing has emerged.

      The only demonstrated collusion is Fusion GPS paying Christopher Steele who paid Russian officials to produce a document apparently full of rubbish to attack Trump. Who paid for this ? Why, the Clinton campaign with a contribution from the Obama campaign fund and, apparently, the FBI itself contributed. Doesn't matter if you use cut-outs like a law firm (and claim it to be legal expenses); the dossier was collusion paid for by Clinton.

      And yes, full of rubbish, about the only thing "verified" in the dossier is the fact that Carter Page went to Moscow - and that is public information as he went to give a speech at a public forum. Michael Cohen did NOT go to Czechoslovakia, and the other "stuff", salicious and unverified as admitted by the FBI.

    2. PeterGriffin

      GOP/DNC can and will say anything to deflect and muddy the water. They have no idea what occurred and with no actual evidence in either direction - who to believe?

  22. DeKrow

    No longer recognise the US

    This is one of those logical fallacies, and I know it, but I still want to fall into it's trap:

    How can anyone take other US laws seriously, which deal with far more trivial matters such as copyright infringement, when the screw things up so terribadly on the important stuff?

    The US, in it's march towards fascism, may well find itself tripping and falling into anarchy.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: No longer recognise the US

      Remember the USA doesn't actually exist - it is all faked on a film set.

      The writers for this season do seem to have "jumped the shark" somewhat

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No longer recognise the US

      Copyright Infringement? Now known as piracy. We apparently think watching an illegally obtained movie is the moral equivalent iof boarding a vessel and slaughtering the crew.

  23. Dave 15

    And of course

    Doesnt matter if you dont charge someone you can still claim you were investigating one of those crimes... even though the person never had any remote connection to them.

    Typical politician mixed with the obnoxious turds that migrate towards 'law enforcement'. Frankly if would be lovely to have a massive space ship, put all politicians and law enforcement solicitor and lawyer types on it for a one way ticket to anywhere else in the universe.

  24. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

    Nice timing there.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    cry more

    at least wolf whistling isn't a hate crime in the US

    1. hplasm
      Paris Hilton

      Re: cry more

      Unlike crossing the road where you want to.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Pathetic

    Mr McCarthy's "analysis" is, as always, an embarrassment for El Reg. Congress should release the report and let the public make up their own mind - maybe it will lead to a long overdue house cleaning.

  27. scrubber

    Osama bin Laden or the TLAs?

    Just remember folks, they attacked us for our freedoms.

  28. Tigra 07

    Trump is for smaller Government and less regulation so i couldn't see this passing...However, it does prevent terrorism, so he'll probably do as his advisors want and pass it.

  29. Wiltshire

    Breaking news ....

    FBI "Loses" Five Months Of Text Messages Between Anti-Trump Agents

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-texts-turned-over-fbi-agent-taken-off-161343170--politics.html

  30. peterm3
    Black Helicopters

    should we comment?

    Great article. Although as some of us are non-US citizens, what we say here is [content redacted]

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's about time...

    ...that naïve and gullible hacks and the general public pull their heads out of their collective arses and get in touch with the reality that all countries use surveillance for security purposes. Those who object to being monitored should never leave their house, never use a TV and pretend they are safe and free from surveillance. In the real world surveillance is used by all countries to reduce crime and protect the populace as much as possible.

  32. DXMage

    It never stopped

    You can bet everything you have that it hasn't ever stopped. Law or not, the NSA and the CIA have proven they are above the law and don't need to follow it as there are no repercussions to them EVER. They can and do get away with murder on a regular basis. So yeah nothing can be done about it and nothing will be done about it.

  33. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
    WTF?

    "The American public deserves the truth. We should not hide the truth from them, they've waited too long. Do not pull wool over their eyes. Show them the facts. They deserve nothing less."

    So...the Repubs are finally going to admit publicly, that the current occupant of the White House is, in fact, an incompetent, senile, racist, womanizing asshole, and they not only put him there, but have been defending him for a year?

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