back to article Reminder: Vast majority of serfs toiling away as Mechanical Turks for megabucks Amazon earn less than min wage

People wanted for tedious work. Low wages, variable hours, location flexible. Career growth doubtful. Not much in the way of recognition or thanks. That doesn't quite have the heroic ring of explorer Ernest Shackleton's famous ad seeking companions for his expedition to Antarctica. But it's a fair approximation of the pitch …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Poor relations

    The author seems to be making a case that Amazon is running a sweatshop and getting rich in the process, but at least he's honest enough to include this line:

    "For those living in countries without much wealth or opportunity, the pittance might even translate to meaningful income."

    Yes it does, and in those countries the headline's "less than min wage" assertion is definitely false. Is it fair to use one nation's standards to judge work done by people in another? Would those people want do-gooders from rich western nations to outlaw their livelihoods over a perceived pay imbalance? I wonder.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Poor relations

      Not just developing nation's populations either. There are those in the developed world that live on disability. A few extra bucks per hour can make a significant difference in their lives. Hell, I think I'll look into it myself. For all the time on the internet these days, due to disability rendering me "unemployable," I wasn't even aware this was an Amazon thing. Could finance more toys for my lab that I putter around in here. I like toys.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Poor relations

        "Could finance more toys for my lab that I putter around in here. I like toys."

        For that sort of money, I'm sure one could afford *several* flimsy Transformers look-a-likes from Poundland a week if they worked hard.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Poor relations

      Would those people want do-gooders from rich western nations to outlaw their livelihoods over a perceived pay imbalance? I wonder.

      Probably not but they may appreciate do-gooders in a rich western nation forcing the ultra rich people profiting off their labour into giving them a bit more money per hour.

      I suspect the references to "minimum wage" indicate that this is largely a process by which people can circumvent laws and make massive profits from the labour of others.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Poor relations

        "Probably not but they may appreciate do-gooders in a rich western nation forcing the ultra rich people profiting off their labour into giving them a bit more money per hour."

        How did Bezos get so rich? He didn't inherit it. I'm afraid people love to be SJWs on social media and protest about how unfair it all is, then next thing they probably do is order something off amazon. I put my money where my mouth is - I have never ordered from Amazon or any other online retailer, I visit my local shops as it supports local business and keeps cohesion in the community having shops around and the staff are on more than in Bezos sweatshops.

        Yes, it costs me a bit more. So what ? Morality often comes with a cost to the person exercising it.

        1. InNY

          Re: Poor relations

          This is all well and good if you have local shops to go to. In my town the only local shops are a regional supermarket chain, a few box stores and Walmart.

          We used to have bookshop, but he used Amazon for all his "special orders". Care to guess why he closed down?

        2. FuzzyWuzzys
          Facepalm

          Re: Poor relations

          You moan about do-gooders by using a derogatory term "SJWs" to describe people, who for the most part have their hearts in the right place, by stating:

          "I'm afraid people love to be SJWs on social media and protest..."

          Then you bang about how great you are and ultra socially responsible you are by only shopping locally, as though anyone who doesn't do the same is some sort of complete bastard!

          "I visit my local shops as it supports local business and keeps cohesion in the community having shops around and the staff are on more than in Bezos sweatshops."

          All very commendable to start going on about the poor local shop keepers. I wonder if these upstanding local shop keepers would stop using IT services from PC World and call you instead to fix their machines, even though you might charge them 10-15% more for a fixit job? Given that their business profit margins are razor thin I very much doubt they'd do the same for you in return for your business!

          Sorry but my money goes to the best value I can stretch out of it, I'm not poor by any means but why should I waste it? I worked hard for it and I spend it where I like.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Poor relations

            "Then you bang about how great you are and ultra socially responsible you are by only shopping locally, as though anyone who doesn't do the same is some sort of complete bastard!"

            No, just have no right to complain about working conditions at Amazon if they actively support the business by using it. The only thing companies like Amazon care about is money.

            "Given that their business profit margins are razor thin I very much doubt they'd do the same for you in return for your business!"

            So what?

            "Sorry but my money goes to the best value I can stretch out of it, I'm not poor by any means but why should I waste it? I worked hard for it and I spend it where I like."

            Ah, the I'm Alright Jack argument. Since when is supporing local business wasting money? But yeah, nice one mate, hope you feel proud of yourself. And you criticise me? You stinking hypocrite.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Poor relations

              No, just have no right to complain about working conditions at Amazon if they actively support the business by using it. The only thing companies like Amazon care about is money.

              It is interesting that you assume the people complaining about working conditions at Amazon here are also actively supporting the business but you are such a caring person you don't complain, you just don't use Amazon.

              You may be stunned to realise there are more options available and forcing a better set of living conditions on the workers might even be a better outcome than putting Amazon out of business.

              1. Donn Bly

                Re: Poor relations

                Not quite sure why you reply to my post, attributing a quote to me that I didn't make, but whatever floats your "anonymous" boat.

                The problem I see with the study is that they are "complaining" about wages but not considering the environment in which they are offered. It is no different than complaining that the housing costs in a small midwestern town are aren't enough to pay for a house in New York City, and demanding that everyone get a larger housing allowance.

                No. You are responsible for your own self. Take some personal responsibility. If you feel you are worth more and you can't live on what the job offers, then don't take the job. If you are truly worth more then someone else will pay you better. Conversely, if nobody will pay you what you think you are worth then you might be worth less than what you think.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Poor relations @ Donn Bly

                  Not quite sure why you reply to my post, attributing a quote to me that I didn't make, but whatever floats your "anonymous" boat.

                  It wasn't a reply to you. It was a reply to a post further up the thread which may explain why the quote wasn't in anything you wrote but was in a post two or three up.

                  If someone replies to a post before yours, it just shows up in line. Really, it isn't all about you.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Poor relations

      "Would those people want do-gooders from rich western nations to outlaw their livelihoods over a perceived pay imbalance?"

      No but I would like to see them push for better living standards rather than the current race to the bottom.

      1. Triggerfish

        Re: Poor relations

        As someone living in a country were the daily wage is low, there is some truth in it provides work that is equivalent to a a not bad, possibly little above average wage.

        Thing is though plenty of people on this average wage, have also some pretty poor conditions. At that wage you can't afford health insurance, and state hospitals can be inadequate as a generous description someone I know recently had to share a bed with three others in a hospital while they had dengue, likewise affordable housing can be of a lot lesser quality than we grew up with, 12m square of living space for example. Or places we would consider as a decent master bedroom being occupied by multiple people.

        I am a little ambivalent on this, part of me realises it provides work for people that in their countries may be considered a living wage and as such cutting it off could be disastrous for them, part of me thinks there really should be nothing wrong with paying a little over, a company could still pay a decent wage and make savings and improve someones life for only a little extra expenditure. I don't think there is an easy cut and dried solution.

    4. TheVogon

      Re: Poor relations

      "only four per cent of Mechanical Turk workers earn more than $7.25 (£5.40) per hour – America's effective minimum wage."

      But they are Turks. And the Turkish minimum wage is £1.75 an hour!

    5. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

      Re: Poor relations

      Is it fair to use one nation's standards to judge work done by people in another?

      Is this a trick question?

    6. Donn Bly

      Re: Poor relations

      The problem is global economics. The Internet truly does make the world “smaller”.

      As a mechanical turk worker you are competing for jobs with other workers all over the world. That means if you are in a country with a high standard of living then the job probably isn’t one that you should consider, because workers in other countries can and will undercut you. As much as I dislike Wikipedia (the encyclopedia that anyone with an axe to grind can edit) they do have a good page on the list of minimum wages by country and comparison numbers indexed by purchasing power and percentage of per capita GDP.

      Per that page the United States at $7.25 works out to 27% of per capita GDP. However, in Vietnam the wages and cost of living are so low that one week’s wages at US minimum wage are more than a year’s salary over there. They would be ECSTATIC to get that kind of money. They can live and live well on less than the average US worker spends on coffee. Other “less developed” countries are similar.

      Instead of complaining that the workers aren’t making a US$ minimum wage, they should be touting the program as it and similar programs can truly help raise the standard of living in less developed countries, transferring wealth from richer counties to poorer ones while simultaneously generating value and worth.

      Of course, that doesn’t fit their narrative – they would rather focus on the other side effect that unskilled people who can’t find work in a high cost of living country are worse off because there are now even less opportunities for them. Setting a global minimum wage could solve that – of course it would also simultaneously destroy half of the economies worldwide through inflation.

      There is better solution – but articulating it here would only get me down voted.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Poor relations

      Don't worry. The working classes will largely be replaced by very stupid robots in the near future.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is there a Slave @ Amazon mobile game?

    Because I think I prefer a career instead in the 'Leisure Economy':

    ~~~

    "This leisure economy we’re heading toward. Why do we have to work? Why don’t we get paid to play? If you have the beginnings of things like esports, streaming, user-generated content, all these people getting paid to play. How do we go from just a few to many people getting paid to play?"

    ~~~

    https://venturebeat.com/2017/08/30/game-boss-interview-epics-tim-sweeney-on-blockchain-digital-humans-and-fortnite/view-all/

  3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    Welcome to the Gig economy

    Reimplementing the Victorian workhouse for the 21st century.

    Nice choice of pic by the way - very fitting.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Devil

      "Reimplementing the Victorian workhouse for the 21st century."

      Coming soon: Pharaon Bezos looks for people to buy the new HQ pyramids.... we promise some free food as long as you're able to work, and all the lashes you can get.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If they can, they will

    If the likes of Amazon, Sports direct etc etc could get away with paying their wage slaves £0.00 per hour then they would.

    We got rid of the workhouses generations ago. We don't want them back.

    I've already taken most of my internet shopping away from Amazon. You could vote with your feet until they start behaving more decently.

  5. MonkeyCee

    Prison labour

    "We got rid of the workhouses generations ago. We don't want them back."

    We still use prisoners as labour. For about 30-40 cents an hour, which they can only spend through the "company store" where an apple or pack of ramon costs a buck, and an out-of-date ex-army ration mars bar costs $5.

    Most of our clothes are made by people working for about the same, albeit in poorer countries.

    Majority of our fish is also caught by people working 12 hour shifts on indentured labour contracts on dangerous ships. A bunch of said fish ends up as pet food, stock feed and fertilizer.

    Compared to that, conditions in tech factories in China are actually quite good, although well below what many people would consider humane.

    So while we may have gotten rid of workhouses, it's mainly been outsourced.

  6. sabroni Silver badge

    FFS

    Join a fucking union.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: FFS

      You do realise that many of those countries don't have unions to join and there are many more people there that see the wage they receive as a step up from subsistence living.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: FFS

      "Join a fucking union."

      If you are brain dead and have no skills of value I guess that's an option.

      Otherwise anyone of any value changes jobs if not happy with the current one.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Have done some work on here in the past - quite a bit of writing on MTurk to buy a new (at the time) digital camera that I could not have paid for otherwise. This was a few years ago, and I had another look last year and the rates seem to have dropped significantly. Still some interesting surveys that you can do for $1-2 in only a few minutes and plenty of "click work" that pays a few cents for a few seconds.

    It is not good pay, but it can give you a little bit extra whenever you have a small amount of time.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    US style wage systems

    Not welcome here.

    Piss off.

    1. Someone Else Silver badge

      Re: US style wage systems

      Where's "here", Kimosabe?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: US style wage systems

        The Great Southern Land

        Mate!

  9. Snorlax Silver badge

    A bit of prespective

    "People wanted for tedious work. Low wages, variable hours, location flexible. Career growth doubtful. Not much in the way of recognition or thanks."

    Sounds like my job description but I digress...

    The remuneration involved here might be more than adequate if somebody's living in "the third world", where living expenses might be nothing like what us privileged Westerners are used to. I read an article a few weeks ago about gold farming (remember that?) - in parts of China it still goes on, and represents an alternative to working on dangerous building sites. I know which job I'd prefer... Since the economy tanked in Venezuela, people there have taken to gold farming too. We might see mechanical turking as exploitative, menial work but for some it's better than the alternative.

    Not defending Amazon, just saying...

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: A bit of prespective

      Not defending Amazon, just saying...

      The issue with that is that the Mechanical Turking is most commonly used for various "services" type jobs. It quite often involves working with customer data including personal data - checking scans, etc.

      Is Amazon as a provider responsible for the processing to be compliant to a particular processing regime or not is an open question. One which should be addressed. Once it is addressed we can decide if we should be "defending Amazon".

      By the way - my guess is that it is not. Last time I had a look at the "mechanical slave" API it had nothing about data protection.

      1. TheVogon

        Re: A bit of prespective

        "Is Amazon as a provider responsible for the processing to be compliant to a particular processing regime or not is an open question."

        No it isn't. They are not responsible. The provider of the data is.

  10. alain williams Silver badge

    Another way that Amazon competes unfairly ...

    up against high street stores who do have to pay their staff the minimum wage as well as pay tax on profits. So Amazon gets away with it at both ends.

    Hopefully our politicians will wake up before the only way of buying something is over the Internet.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Another way that Amazon competes unfairly ...

      You do know that these aren't Amazon workers? It is an API that lets you farm out simple online click-box tasks to somebody in the 3rd world, amazon just take a cut.

      It's like saying your local paper should pay the wages for the jobs it advertisers in the small ads.

  11. Jamie Jones Silver badge

    I don't undefstand....

    Out of curiousity, I had a look at their site, and it's full of offers of 'jobs' that will take about 2 hours, for 1c pay.

    One even 'offered' 0c

    What am I missing?

  12. SundogUK Silver badge

    Your labour is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. Don't like getting paid a pittance? Improve the value of your labour.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Better yet, don't take the fucking job.

      It's a two way street, bub.

    2. c1ue

      What a laughable statement.

      Sharecroppers and company stores. Pinkertons. National Guard. Monopolies. Guilds. Certifications.

      There are innumerable examples where neither the laborer nor the job is "open".

      But no worries - you're clearly a kid and don't understand just how many ways prospective employers can screw you over.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    opportunity

    Wait, so part of the problem is the wasted effort in matching jobs to workers. I know, I'll become a middleman to match workers to HITs. I'll farm out the matching process with Amazon Turk.

    It's Turks all the way down!

    1. ecofeco Silver badge
      Pirate

      Re: opportunity

      You joke, but do you have any idea how MANY middlemen are in the world's supply chain?

  14. Kristy_Milland

    A few points...

    a) mTurk stopped allowing new non-US workers to sign up in 2012, and since then has only allowed a few dozen to do so on a case-by-case basis. Therefore, the overwhelming majority of workers are American, so they're making $2/hour in a country where the minimum wage for employees, which they are not categorized as, is $7.25.

    b) Speaking of the company store, non-US workers who signed up before 2012 or were permitted on the site after 2014 are paid in Amazon.com gift cards. Not even their local site, they end up paying huge amounts for shipping and then out of their own pocket for customs fees. So that $2/hour becomes pennies in the value of the item they actually receive for the wages they earned.

    c) I wish we could join a union, but since we're categorized as independent contractors, North American law says by striking or attempting collective bargaining we're blocking competition (in Europe, the claim is that we're behaving like a bid-rigging cartel).

    1. Snorlax Silver badge

      @Kristy_Milland

      @Kristy_Milland:"Therefore, the overwhelming majority of workers are American, so they're making $2/hour in a country where the minimum wage for employees, which they are not categorized as, is $7.25."

      $2/hour isn't a new phenomenon. There are (and have been for many years) plenty of waitresses in the US depending on tips to bump up their $2.13/hour wages...

      I guess the question that needs to be asked is 'Why doesn't the US implement an across-the-board $7.25 minimum wage, no matter what type of work a person is doing?'

      Welcome to the gig economy.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Stop it

    The Turk is a marketplace, a Craig's List for mental tasks. Amazon doesn't post the tasks and they don't hire the workers - they are a clearinghouse. If a worker takes a job at an absurdly low rate, that's their choice (or fault). I doubt this even affects the rounding error in Amazon's income statement. Amazon can be criticized for many things but this isn't one of them.

    1. ecofeco Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Stop it

      So they aren't facilitating the situation?

      Oh do tell.

  16. Bob Dole (tm)
    Holmes

    Venezuela

    Just open it up to the people of Venezuela. I hear that $2.00 US goes a looong way there.

  17. ecofeco Silver badge
    Pirate

    Tried my hand at it years ago

    Realized right away it was a labor scam.

  18. mharstrick

    so, Amazon made about 1 1/2 % profit, hardly worth the effort--how many of us would risk that kind of investment to make 1 1/2%?

    1. Solo Owl

      I calculated Amazon's profit at 1.75% of sales. This is not such a bad return on gross sales revenue. Most supermarkets struggle to make 2% on sales.

      If I were an investor, I would want to know (among many other things) what is the net profit after taxes as a percentage of the money oroginally invested; and as a percentage of the money that could be raised by selling all of the companies assets. It is not the same thing as a percentage of sales revenue.

      (Disclosure: I'm lazy. I invest in mutual funds and index funds.)

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Used to do supermarket 'Night Fill"

    In my younger days did the after hours shelf stacking gig as a side-line.

    Two massive pallets picked, boxes cut, rotated, priced* and stacked in a 4 hour shift.

    Paid a fair wage, even if pushed like a Trojan.

    * The days of pricing sticker guns

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