back to article Samsung rings death knell for disk, gears up for QLC flash production

Samsung has confirmed its 4bit/cell flash is incoming – that's a QLC (quad-level cell) NAND chip. The highest capacity flash cells right now are TLC (triple-level cell) with 3 bits/cell. It's harder to make QLC flash as the stuff has slower read and write times than TLC and less endurance at die level. Read a QLC flash primer …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Rings the death knell for storage, more like

    On your (excellent) QLC primer, the table at the bottom shows circa 100 P/E cycles for QLC NAND. What effing use is that? All the downsides of rewritable media (eg vulnerable to ransomware), but durability similar to the paper hat in a party cracker. All the clever algorithms in the world aren't going to persuade me that's a sensible form of storage.

    Oi! Samsung! Bugger off back to the drawing board, and come back when you've got something worth my time.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Rings the death knell for storage, more like

      I don't think that 100 P/E cycles is valid for 3D NAND, which uses a much larger feature size (more like 40nm) versus the 20nm or less for planar NAND that had the terrible P/E cycle figure.

      Still, for a lot of uses even 100 P/E is overkill. A typical CE device like a cable box or wireless router that uses flash to store its firmware will have said firmware upgraded at most a few dozen times (and at worst never) so it will find a home there.

      Hopefully it won't be used on phones, but if I could pull 'SMART' data off my iPhone 6S plus' flash, I'll bet it isn't close to 100 P/E cycles yet, though obviously some people are reading/writing a lot more often than I do if they're constantly taking video and copying it off their phone, downloading movies, etc.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Death knell for disk?

    QLC flash will have 33% greater capacity per cell than TLC, hence will be at best 25% cheaper per GB - assuming it costs exactly the same per cell to produce, and doesn't require any additional over-provisioning.

    It will also have lower write endurance, lower long-term retention, and higher read error rates.

    That makes it pretty unattractive for many applications. Throw-away consumer electronics are probably the most likely place this will appear, unfortunately.

    1. Adam 1

      Re: Death knell for disk?

      Nah. What interest would a consumer tat company have in a product that needs replacing soon after the warranty period expires?

  3. colinb

    Rocky Horror?

    Interesting for the "write once-read many" applications but the Rocky Horror reference?

    1. Pen-y-gors

      Re: Rocky Horror?

      This is the Nth time we've been warned of the death of spinning rust - it feels like I'm in a Time Warp (again).

  4. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    Death knell my arse

    Any way I look at it, it is yet another step up on the ladder going down into the land of diminishing returns.

    It delivers less in terms of capacity gain than what you have to over-provision in order to hit the actual MTBF and write cycle numbers even for consumer hardware.

    So it is a death knell to rusty spinners some other time.

  5. Ian Michael Gumby
    Thumb Up

    Still too early...

    The death knell may not be QLC but if you can get a high enough density at an MLC or something similar with 100,000 cycles. Right now the high end in the m.2 space is 2TB. If you can increase that density by 4X at the same or similar price point of a HDD at the same density, you'll have a winner. (Even if it were higher but not much... its a winner. )

    You don't need to have 128TB density to kill spinning rust.

  6. Sssss

    Isn't it the case that floating gates in multiple level flash are very unreliable leading to corruption over time from drift? So, what we need is better archive storage disks.

  7. emv

    QLC vs HDD

    QLC will provide a 25% lower price best case when it is released into mass production which will be Sept 2018 best case.

    So today the cost of SSDs are 7-8x the cost per GB of HDDs. HDD prices dropped in the last year and SSD prices went up. So QLC will help make it so that SSDs are only 5x more expensive than HDDs

    Someday SSDs will be half of all the GBs sold for storage. Today is not that day (HDD out-ships SSD GBs >7:1. 2020 is not that day either. 2025 seems good. HDD will be here for a while.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Some thoughts on QLC vs. TLC

    Going from SLC to MLC provided a 100% increase in capacity over SLC.

    Going from MLC to TLC provided a 50% increase in capacity over MLC.

    In both of these cases the NAND industry was able provide adequate write wear (P/E cycles, DWPD) to allow the NAND media to replace general purpose storage.

    Also, each new increase in bit per cell density cannot be implemented on the latest semiconductor device fabrication process. Higher bits per cell do not work as well on higher density semiconductors. As a result, the higher bit per cell technology is more often implemented on lower density semiconductors, reducing the price per capacity advantages of the denser bits per cell. The same is true about 3D NAND vs. Planar NAND--more complicated NAND manufacturing is less suited for the highest bit per cell density.

    Going from TLC to QLC will only provide a 33% increase in capacity over TLC. However, this increase may be offset by using older, less dense semiconductor density, and lower layer density 3D NAND, compared to state of the art TLC capability. Add to this a significant reduction in P/E cycles and DWPD, and the price per capacity advantage may be minimal--for now. Over time everything will improve and QLC will become more mainstream.

    The real advantage may be a combination of mature QLC backing drives with storage class memory caching. This is the likely solution for both hyperconverged and external storage arrays.

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