back to article Read IBM CEO Ginni Rometty's letter to staff: Why I walked from Trump's strategy forum

In November 2016 IBM CEO Ginni Rometty wrote to then-president-elect Donald Trump with a list of ways IBM hoped to help the real-estate tycoon Make America Great Again. And today she wrote to IBM staff to let them know Big Blue has walked away from Trump's strategy and policy forum, which was closing down anyway, and agrees …

  1. Frumious Bandersnatch

    yeah, but ...

    Trump isn't even proper Nazi. Not surprised IBM walked away when they did.

    1. Frumious Bandersnatch

      Re: yeah, but ...

      By which I mean, "nobody properly believes that Trump is a Nazi" and "Props to IBM for sticking to #MAGA (right until it became untenable)."

    2. macjules

      Re: yeah, but ...

      That's OK, IBM isn't a proper computer company either.

    3. Ian Michael Gumby
      Big Brother

      @F Bandersnatch Re: yeah, but ...

      I wonder how many forgot that the Germans used IBM equipment during WW2 to help keep accurate records on how many Jews they killed.

      1. Frumious Bandersnatch

        Re: @F Bandersnatch yeah, but ...

        Not me. I am attempting to do the opposite of making people forget about this. Judging by the number of downvotes I received and the great preference people had for my first first post over my second, I can only conclude that people (a) don't appreciate irony (especially the recursive variety), or (b) much prefer to interpret my first post as literally suggesting that Trump isn't fascist enough over the sanitised version that presents a post-Fascist apology for my original statement.

        OK, I guess that confusion surrounding irony (or meta-irony) angers people. No argument there.

        For the record: Nazis are limp-dicked lizards that use the "supremacy" myth to cover up their basic inhumanity.

  2. Nolveys

    ...our values as a country and a company...

    I don't get it, are things too sociopathic or not enough?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      IBM was concerned that Trump didn't want IBM to continue to be an equal opportunities resource actioner. Errrr....employer...

  3. wayward4now
    Linux

    Trump was right the first time

    Keeping in mind that since this is still America, you can say and believe anything you damn well please, no matter who you piss off. You need only to not break existing laws. Worse hatred happens every hour, on the hour, in places like Chicago, Detroit Baltimore and Los Angeles, daily. The problem with Trump's response was that it assumed a general level of intelligence of the listeners. Damn skippy no group should get out of hand during a demonstration. No one should become dead. What is REALLY wrong with this country is that we expect first class behavior from citizens that received a second class brain-deadening education devoid of critical thinking skills. Trump doesn't get that yet. He needs to realize that the majority in this country are knuckle-dragging idiots who lack a half assed education. They need to have things explained to them in a manner that requires no thinking. If Trump had explained that the Klan has been a part of the Democratic Party for 100 years, all hell would have broken out since no one knows that.

    1. Blotto Silver badge

      Re: Trump was right the first time

      @wayward

      "The problem with Trump's response was that it assumed a general level of intelligence of the listeners. Damn skippy no group should get out of hand during a demonstration. No one should become dead. What is REALLY wrong with this country is that we expect first class behavior from citizens that received a second class brain-deadening education devoid of critical thinking skills. Trump doesn't get that yet. He needs to realize that the majority in this country are knuckle-dragging idiots who lack a half assed education. They need to have things explained to them in a manner that requires no thinking."

      If you wrote that paragraph describing trump you'd be getting gazillions of up votes, as it'd be true.

      There's many things Trump doesn't get, he's the bull in the China shop, smashing everything up because he doesn't understand and doesn't want to understand. Once he's gone the shop will still be there, in need of a huge cleanup and restocking, removing all the crap he left behind and in need to convince its neighbors and potential customers its safe to come back in and measures are in place to prevent any new bulls from entering.

      When a nation has nuclear weapons and its leader is so removed from reality, the rest of the world truly trembles in terror. This is the reason why we don't want other nations having the bomb, as we fear their leaders are unstable and irrational.

      1. Snorlax Silver badge

        Re: Trump was right the first time

        @wayward4now:"He needs to realize that the majority in this country are knuckle-dragging idiots who lack a half assed education. "

        He knows his supporters only too well.

        His supporters are more likely to live in states with opioid addiction problems, with people relying on Medicaid, with blue collar jobs going down the toilet. He's a puppetmaster, he just doesn't realise that someones pulling his strings too.

        1. earl grey
          Gimp

          Re: Trump was right the first time

          Puppetmaster....hmmm; wonder if we could get the Major after him.

        2. Ian Michael Gumby
          Boffin

          Re: Trump was right the first time

          @wayward4now:"He needs to realize that the majority in this country are knuckle-dragging idiots who lack a half assed education. "

          He knows his supporters only too well.

          He does, however, you don't.

          Many people voted for Trump for many reasons. Most of all, the other candidate would have been worse.

          Do you know why the 'alt right' and 'white supremacits' side with Trump?

          Because he's not Obama.

          Think about that for a second.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Trump was right the first time

            Many people voted for Trump for many reasons. Most of all, the other candidate would have been worse.

            That is wearing more and more thin by the day. Its a farce to think Hillary would have tried to side with Russia over her own Government agencies, threatened war with North Korea over a twitter spat about who is the most manly, tried to close down all the national parks, offended pretty much every other world leader (except the other oppressive sociopath regimes) and most importantly it is a farce to think she would have enabled and supported white supremacists.

            Do you know why the 'alt right' and 'white supremacits' side with Trump?

            Because he's not Obama.

            Yes, they are racist nazis. We get that. However they didnt have to choose between a white and black guy. They chose their fellow racist who would enable them.

            The fact that many non Nazis voted for trump is more worrying.

        3. Lord_Beavis
          Mushroom

          Re: Trump was right the first time

          I live in one of those states in a city that I'm the minority in. I bet you can guess what the crime stats are.

          I graduated from High School, have a degree, still constantly learn new things that are beneficial to me and by extension society and, oh yeah, I voted for Trump.

      2. Ian Michael Gumby

        @Blotto Re: Trump was right the first time

        Don't sell Trump short.

        He's human and has his failings.

        He's not a great communicator and the MSM and politicians tend to focus on the word and not the thought behind what he is saying.

        When both sides bring shields and weapons to a rally, what do you think is going to happen? And do you only blame one side?

        The problem is that there are groups of people who want to oust Trump at any cost. This is unfortunate.

        1. Snorlax Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: @Blotto Trump was right the first time

          @Ian Michael Gumby:"When both sides bring shields and weapons to a rally, what do you think is going to happen? And do you only blame one side?"

          Don't be so disingenuous. You can't incite or engineer a confrontation and then complain that the people who find you to be reprehensible are to blame.

          The time for thinking about possible repercussions was before the nazi scum organised the rally.

          I'm surprised and disappointed at the number of nazi apologists on this site.

          1. Ian Michael Gumby
            Mushroom

            @Snoralax Re: @Blotto Trump was right the first time

            You truly are clueless.

            Nobody here is apologizing for the NN and the White Supremacists. Not even Trump.

            To clarify,

            On the one side which you call Nazis, you had Neo-Nazi, White Supremacits, 'Alt-Right' and other similar groups. It wasn't a single cohesive group. Not to mention a group of people who were protesting the removal of the statues because they wanted to protect our history.

            On the other, you had BLM, Antifa, and miscellaneous peaceful protesters. Which in your mind you conflate to 'peaceful protester'.

            Sure those who scheduled the rally expected to have a violent opposition.

            I would suggest you think of the possible outcomes and how the rally organizers could use it to their advantage.

            Clearly you don't think before you post and you clearly haven't a clue about what is going on in this country.

            You want to blame Trump, but in truth... most of this started while Obama was President.

            To ignore the violence caused by BLM and Antifa not only adds fuel to the fire, but also is unfair because they too share the blame for the violence.

            I suggest you look at the March on Skokie IL back in '78.

            Nothing happened. Why? Because the police did their job and shut down the march before violence could happen. That didn't happen here. Ask yourself why.

            Learn your history son, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

            1. Snorlax Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: @Snoralax @Blotto Trump was right the first time

              @Ian Michael Dumby:"You truly are clueless..."

              Aw diddums. Poor Gumby is #triggered.

              Take a break from your hysterical shitposting, and have a Xanax and a lie down. Or maybe go play with some guns.

              We get it - you're an apologist for fascist scum. You don't need to differentiate between the types of fascist scum you're making excuses for...

              1. Ian Michael Gumby
                Flame

                Re: @Snoralax @Blotto Trump was right the first time

                Son,

                You're not intelligent enough to push my buttons.

                The sad truth is that you like many others here spout half truth and utter nonsense.

                There's an op-ed piece on Fox's site from a resident of Charlottesville who explained what set up this situation.

                I point you and others to historical facts that also led to this confrontation, as well as point to the fact that the confrontation could have been avoided.

                You spout nonsense out of ignorance. You also misunderstand what I am saying and why I am saying it.

                The issue isn't support for neo-nazi, alt-right, white supremacists. The issue is the support for the law that allows them to say what they want. You probably never heard the expression "I disagree with what you are saying, but I'll defend your right to say it.". Its a paraphrase of a quote that was written over 100 years ago.

                You clearly aren't an American or understand why we believe in the first amendment rights.

                The issue is that you want to shut down speech and ideas that you don't agree with.

                You don't want to assign blame to the BLM who were present and are also part of the problem.

                You don't want to assign blame to the Antifa who were also present and were shown to be attacking the police prior to the event. And the Antifa are actually acting like fascists by shutting down ideas and speech that they don't like.

                You are just as ignorant as the youth in America today. And that's a major problem.

                Maybe one day you will learn.

                You want to stop racism, you start with educating them.

                I personally have stopped several people from being antisemitic. Just by being myself and showing the stereotype to be wrong. What have you done to stop hatred and bigotry?

                Grow up. You're heading down the slope of being a fascist and creating the society you claim to hate.

                Maybe you should reread Animal Farm? Assuming you read it in the first place.

                1. Snorlax Silver badge
                  FAIL

                  Re: @Snoralax @Blotto Trump was right the first time

                  @Ian Michael Gumby:"The issue is the support for the law that allows them to say what they want. You probably never heard the expression "I disagree with what you are saying, but I'll defend your right to say it.". Its a paraphrase of a quote that was written over 100 years ago."

                  It's not a law that allows them to say what they want, it's a constitutional amendment. You don't appear to know the difference.

                  Judging by the amount of downvotes you're getting I'm pretty sure everybody on here is tired of your shit. But carry on by all means; it's your constitutional right to talk crap.

                  Son.

                  1. Ian Michael Gumby

                    Re: @Snoralax @Blotto Trump was right the first time

                    The truth is a popularity contest? Really?

                    I think that says a lot about you and your vision of reality.

                    You are closer to being a fascist that you so hate than you realize.

                    You tend to revel in your ignorance. And that's the sad pathetic truth.

                    You clear don't know constitutional law. Or its significance in shaping this country.

                    I've already suggested that you read Animal Farm.

                    You should also read 'A Nation Takes Shape' by Cuniliffe.

                    There's more, but seriously its all wasted on you. What do they teach you in school these days?

                    1. Snorlax Silver badge
                      Headmaster

                      Re: @Snoralax @Blotto Trump was right the first time

                      @Ian Michael Gumby:"I think that says a lot about you and your vision of reality."

                      You poor snowflake. I said yesterday you were triggered and that is true without doubt.

                      Why else would you go to the trouble of typing so many lengthy replies to various people's criticism?

                      It's ironic that people like you who bring out the corny old cliche "I disagree with what you are saying, but I'll defend your right to say it." are the same people who talk down to (and try to ridicule) those who don't agree with them.

                      My vision of reality is just fine. The people who organised the rally in Charlottesville are fascist pieces of shit, just like the people who make excuses for them. The world seems to agree.

                      I've read Animal Farm BTW. You remind me of Squealer, loyal to his leader, justifying Napoleons actions and trying to confuse the uneducated...

                      One other thing - this is a UK website as you can see from the .co.uk in your address bar. You may be surprised to learn that "muh freedomz" such as the first and second amendments don't apply extra-territorially

              2. Sir Runcible Spoon

                Re: @Snoralax @Blotto Trump was right the first time

                "We get it - you're an apologist for fascist scum. You don't need to differentiate between the types of fascist scum you're making excuses for..."

                I'm truly confused as to whether you actually believe what you are saying or are being deliberately disingenuous in order to get a rise.

                Please could you provide the original text you are responding to when putting words other peoples' mouths, because I didn't anywhere that Ian was making apologies or excuses for anyone, let alone the NN's etc.

                At the moment it rather looks like you are taking the view 'if you aren't frothing at the mouth and are determined to have an intelligent discussion about this then I'm going to accuse you of siding with the worst group that is under discussion'.

                This approach (sadly) probably works on people who are only 1mm deep, but not for those of us that can still fire neurons.

        2. cray74

          Re: @Blotto Trump was right the first time

          When both sides bring shields and weapons to a rally, what do you think is going to happen? And do you only blame one side?

          Mmm. False equivalency fallacy. Let's try some of that, too:

          “You know, one side hates minorities, the other side hates people who hate minorities. Okay? Two sides. All right? It’s just like D-Day. Remember, D-Day: two sides, Allies and the Nazis. There was a lot of violence on both sides.” --Colbert, as Donald Trump

          "I don’t agree with the Nazis, but they had a permit for Normandy & the Allies didn’t." --General Trump.

          "Sure the Empire is evil, but nobody is talking about the extremely violent Rebel Alliance." --Darth Trump

          "Sure, the cancer was aggressive. But the chemotherapy was also very aggressive. There was aggression on both sides." --Dr. Trump.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Ian Micheal Gumby

          OMG. I hope this is a comic post I've misread. If so, I am sorry but just in case you were being serious:

          He's not a great communicator

          He is the president of the USA. He is supposedly a successful business leader. He was a successful TV personality. He took part in a successful election campaign. He is constantly on twitter.

          If he is NOT a great communicator then he needs to resign as president or STOP ignoring the messages his communications staff try to give him.

          the MSM and politicians tend to focus on the word and not the thought behind what he is saying.

          Far from true. The thought behind his words is pretty much what everyone gets to see.

          For example, when he was on-script following the autocue he was saying the right things and *may* have calmed down some of the furore over his basic inability to manage any difficult situation. However, when he decided he'd had enough and wanted to express his true feelings it became apparent that he really is a Nazi sympathizer.

          When both sides bring shields and weapons to a rally, what do you think is going to happen?

          What? One side organised the attendance of an armed militia with assault rifles who patrolled through the streets like an occupying force. One side brought Nazi slogans and anti-semitic chants. One side out-weaponized the police presence.

          There is no "both sides" here. There really isn't. The Nazis turned up looking for a fight.

    2. Triggerfish

      Re: Trump was right the first time

      Keeping in mind that since this is still America, you can say and believe anything you damn well please, no matter who you piss off.

      Maybe so but I think you are on dodgy ground when you start building an equivalency between Nazis and the other protestors, especially since the Nazi's were mostly brought in from out of state whilst most of the protestors were apparently locals. Also many weapons were being carried I am not sure how that fits with a peaceful protest.

      It gave the impression everyone had turned up just to fight, and also seemed to give some legitimacy to the Nazi's many of those sites were playing on this.

      Considering America is supposed to be a free and equal place totally denouncing them and showing the presidency holds to a better ideal may have been a far better idea.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        @Triggerfish ... Re: Trump was right the first time

        "

        Maybe so but I think you are on dodgy ground when you start building an equivalency between Nazis and the other protestors, especially since the Nazi's were mostly brought in from out of state whilst most of the protestors were apparently locals.

        "

        Uhm... no.

        Both Antifa and BLM brought in protesters.

        You can use google to find the FB comment from BLM asking for PayPal donations to get people to the protest.

        Seriously.

        You can't make this stuff up, You just need to use google.

        1. Triggerfish

          Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

          Maybe so but I think you are on dodgy ground when you start building an equivalency between Nazis and the other protestors, especially since the Nazi's were mostly brought in from out of state whilst most of the protestors were apparently locals.

          "

          Uhm... no.

          Umm yes.

          You can also use google to see quite what the difference was. Now also please note I have not said the antifa were peaceful. I said it was mainly locals who were there, a lot of which got attacked.

          And if you build a false equivalency between a hate group that is spouting bullshit about why other races should die versus them even with the antifa and by not being plain on this then you give them more power, so I think you are going the down the wrong path.

          Its quite simple free speech or not there is nothing wrong with thinking the Nazis and those following that ideology are utterly foul. To put them in the same region as those against it says that there is a tacit approval of the fact that this ethos is as valid as theirs and has a place in modern society.

          If a bunch of people wandered down the street being vile and shouting for I dunno say the right to rape and kill, and people argued against them would you paint them as the same? Or would you say one lot might have used the wrong tactics to counter protest which we can't condone say like the antifa, but at least they are fighting from a better moral ground. There is no moral equivalency with Nazi's and you shouldn't try and make one.

          Also yes they were not assault rifles, but and no gun expert but an AR15 fires either a .556 Nato, or a .22 long round if I am correct, both rounds that have plenty of penetration power, easily will go through someone, or the usual sort of cover like a car or say someones sheetrock house wall. I believe some military units like the marines also carry single shot automatic rifles nowadays rather than the something that can provide auto. So technicality aside on the actual name of the weapon, that's a weapon with a serious round and capability to be carrying in a peaceful protest.

          1. Ian Michael Gumby
            Boffin

            Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

            @Triggerfish...

            You missed the point, but since you want to talk about firearms...

            The 5.56 mm round is a .223 which is a .22 caliber round. I won't go in the the ballistic differences other than to say that the 5.56x51mm is a larger case containing a larger charge behind the bullet. But both can kill. In terms of penetration. most pistol rounds can penetrate a car door easily. You can find YouTube videos demonstrating this. And those are 9mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP and .357Sig rounds that are commonly used in the police force today.

            There is no such thing as a 'single shot automatic rifle'. There are muzzle loaders, bolt action, semi-auto and full auto (select fire) weapons. (Select fire in that you can fire semi-auto, burst, and full automatic, while some will not fire bursts but either semi or full auto and other that will fire bursts but not full auto. It depends on the weapon and its trigger group.)

            The use of the term 'assault rifle' has both legal and historical significance. Hence its important to note that while some carried rifles (AR-15) some also carried pistols (both open and concealed). But they were in the minority. (There's a reason for this...) And during all of the violence, not a single shot was fired.

            While you may focus on the optics of the men brandishing weapons, you need to know the gun laws. First, only residents of the state can carry a concealed weapon if they have a conceal carry permit. Those from outside of the state can carry concealed weapons if the state (Virginia) recognizes the other state's permit. (Reciprocity) You can go online and see which state honors what.

            But then you get in to the question of where and when is it legal to actually use your fire arm. Note too that even with open carry, there are rules that vary from state to state that allow open carry.

            IMHO it was foolish of them to brandish rifles. If you use it, the odds are you will end up in jail and you would lose your rifle. At best, you may be found not guilty, however it will be a very expensive lesson.

            Firearms are not toys. Full disclosure. I legally own several bolt action rifles, semi-auto rifles, shotguns and pistols. I regularly shoot in order to maintain my proficiency and have a healthy respect for the damage a gun can do.

            Also, lets be clear. Neither side wanted a peaceful protest.

            To help put the issue in context.

            http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/08/17/charlottesville-never-had-to-happen-how-craven-local-politicians-led-our-nation-into-tragedy.html

            1. Triggerfish

              Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

              OK so I am willing to say I am not informed about guns. But the side argument aside of what actual types of guns they are, is that not still some heavy weaponry to carry to a peaceful protest?

              1. Sir Runcible Spoon

                Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

                @Triggerfish/Snorlax & Downvoters

                A question for you (genuine one) - Why does recognizing that, in addition to a bunch of Nazi wankers, a bunch of left-wing extremists were *also* at fault immediately result in accusations of support for the Nazi's?

                I would really like to understand the reasoning behind this process, because it is truly baffling me and I think is causing a lot of conflict between people who would otherwise agree (in general that is).

                I'm also going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Ian is responding because he believes you are only looking at one side of the picture and missing key elements on the other side that might come back to haunt you if you continue to conflate it with 'the enemy'.

                By not acknowledging all of the components in this situation when discussing it someone who is, you are creating your own view where you think he is being superior - part of you must be acknowledging (at a subconscious level at least) that you aren't being honest, and that it is yourself that is triggered. Ever hear of projection?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

                  A question for you (genuine one) - Why does recognizing that, in addition to a bunch of Nazi wankers, a bunch of left-wing extremists were *also* at fault immediately result in accusations of support for the Nazi's?

                  Ok, I cant answer for anyone because I didnt vote you down or accuse you of supporting the Nazi, however I think saying that fault is shared here is incorrect. Responsibility for actions may be shared but, for me at least, the fault is one sided.

                  Ask yourself, what should those who oppose Nazis have done? Should they have allowed the protest to go unopposed, leading to the Nazis believing they have more support then they do and allowing those scared by this event to feel more alone?

                  The Nazis chose follow a path of hatred for others, chose to demonstrate this in an aggressive show of force, chose to chant their hatred with incendiary, racist and anti-Semitic remarks and chose to try and intimidate those who disagree with them. Placing any equivalence between the two sides is similar (only similar before the pedants get off on one) to saying France is partly at fault for the first world war because they fought back against the Germans.

                  So, what do you think the people opposing the Nazis should have done to not be at fault in your world view?

                  1. Sir Runcible Spoon

                    Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

                    AC:"So, what do you think the people opposing the Nazis should have done to not be at fault in your world view?"

                    That's a valid question and deserves an answer. The local populace (who I think pretty much everyone agrees were the peaceful ones who were the real victims of this situation) tried to protest the Nazi's by blocking their path to the rally (at least that's the impression I got when reading the witness statements).

                    Since these Nazi's were obviously armed and looking for trouble that was both brave and fooling in equal measure, and I stand by comments made in another thread that the Police should have done more here.

                    However, I'm not seeing any real fault with the locals here, they were understandably pissed off their their local area was being used to make a political point by extremists.

                    In order to answer your question I'm going to have to have a guess at what would have happened if Antifa/BLM were not there and did not step in. There is some doubt as to whether the NN's would have actually acted violently towards the locals since that wouldn't gel with their 'victim' ploy. They would have scared the locals, some shoving and pushing to get past them maybe, but I doubt it would have turned ugly because I reckon the Police would have stepped in and I don't think the locals were looking for trouble - it sounds like they were pretty scared.

                    If it had all played out like that this would have been a non-event (in terms of international news I mean). The addition of left-wing extremists who adopt similar tactics to the NN's (use of violence and threats to achieve their goals) only served to ignite the powder-keg the NN's had prepared.

                    Some may argue that Antifa/BLM were there to protect the civilians of the town, but let's face facts - they were there to kick the shit out of the Nazi's. Understandable? Yes. Condone-able? No, not in my world view.

                    Don't get me wrong - I am NOT defending white supremacists - but I find it disingenuous to totally ignore the actions of Antifa/BLM as if they were entirely blameless in the violence that ensued.

                    Pointing out that the left-wing extremists played their part in the violence DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT FASCISTS. Hopefully that not-so-subtle point is starting to sink in with those who have so far seen fit to denounce anyone who dares point this out is a closet Nazi.

                    Thank you for responding with an intelligent post, you have restored 0.05% of my faith that all is not lost :)

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

                      Like the rest of America they need to pay attention to who they vote for next time. I'm hoping Trump will be an anomaly that reminds everyone why Democracy should be protected.

                    2. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Sir Runcible Spoon

                      However, I'm not seeing any real fault with the locals here, they were understandably pissed off their their local area was being used to make a political point by extremists.

                      I agree. I am not sure I've seen anyone blaming the locals - certainly from what I've seen there are two camps: 1) the nazis are to blame; 2) both sides are equally to blame. To be fair, I do strongly favor one over the other but...

                      In order to answer your question I'm going to have to have a guess at what would have happened if Antifa/BLM were not there and did not step in. There is some doubt as to whether the NN's would have actually acted violently towards the locals since that wouldn't gel with their 'victim' ploy.

                      I sort of agree here. Not fully because, fundamentally, the Nazis turned up ready to fight, and vastly out-gunned the locals in terms of both "melee" weapons and actual guns on display.

                      They would have scared the locals, some shoving and pushing to get past them maybe, but I doubt it would have turned ugly

                      For me, this is already ugly. When the nazis start threatening, pushing and shoving the locals, the fight has begun and the expectation (certainly by most people) is that those being pushed, shoved and having abuse hurled at them have the right (if not the ability) to defend themselves.

                      If I were to parade through a white nationalist community shouting "death to crackers", "whitey out"

                      and "Jesus was queer" would I share the blame for my end results or would the ensuing violence be entirely my fault? For me, it would be entirely my fault for A) holding an offensive and unacceptable viewpoint; B) antagonizing and goading others by expressing my unacceptable viewpoint in a manner I know will cause offence and result in action. Its not a freedom of speech issue when I press buttons knowing the outcome.

                      and I don't think the locals were looking for trouble - it sounds like they were pretty scared.

                      I agree here and this speaks volumes as to the situation. The Nazis were intimidating and threatening. Their language was inflammatory and their behavior offensive. They had turned up looking for a fight and were going to engineer one.

                      Some may argue that Antifa/BLM were there to protect the civilians of the town, but let's face facts - they were there to kick the shit out of the Nazi's. Understandable? Yes. Condone-able? No, not in my world view.

                      I sort of agree here. I dont for one second think Antifa went there to "protect" citizens. They arent superheros and they arent law enforcement. However, the reality is if people dont stand up to Nazis - people who are neither scared of violence or unwilling to use it - then the Nazis will eventually win, through fear and intimidation if nothing else.

                      Neville Chamberlain is, possibly with some value, criticised for having tried to reason with Nazis and for his unswerving belief that any form of violence was wrong. There are those who believe that if he had stood up to them in 1938, we would have avoided WW2 but he firm held the belief that discourse and debate would de-escalate the situation.

                      While I truly wish he was true with every bone of my body, history now mocks his appeasement strategy.

                      Now that we are faced with our own Nazis, there has to be a decision. Do we appease them, knowing that no amount of education or "showing them whats right" will change their views or do we meet force with force?

                      What is the third option here?

                      1. Sir Runcible Spoon

                        Re: Sir Runcible Spoon

                        While I truly wish he was true with every bone of my body, history now mocks his appeasement strategy.

                        Now that we are faced with our own Nazis, there has to be a decision. Do we appease them, knowing that no amount of education or "showing them whats right" will change their views or do we meet force with force?

                        What is the third option here?

                        The historical situation with Nazi Germany isn't really a true comparison as they were operating within their own powerbase. The Nazi wannabee's on show here don't have a powerbase and they aren't speaking to a large group of people and saying what they want to hear. (There will always be the odd bell-end who believes that drivel).

                        1. Appease? - No. They have a right to their views, but they don't have a right to make me listen. If they act out any of their ideas then they are breaking the law and are simply criminals.

                        2. Respond with force? - No. This only legitimizes their position and could actually garner them more support from moderate right-wingers - if only to thwart the radical left that are oppressing them (see how that works?)

                        3. Respond with strength. - Yes. As long as you don't equate strength to use of force that is. Rejecting their ideas - protesting at their rallies without resorting to violence etc.

                        4. Ignore - up to a point. If no-one else had turned up at that rally except NN's etc. there wouldn't have been an incident at all - unless they started turning on themselves or damaging property - which would just make them criminals and free speech protections don't apply.

                        It has been my experience that letting idiots ruin themselves (which they always do in the end) is the most efficient means to deal with them, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else (and I don't just mean with 'offensive' language). If they hurt others, then it's a crime and they can be arrested/jailed etc. Otherwise just let them wank each other off into oblivion - who'd notice?

                        Just as a side note, I'm pretty sure that none of these numpties would ever have been accepted by the Nazi SS for example, who are they kidding?

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

              There is no such thing as a 'single shot automatic rifle'. There are muzzle loaders, bolt action, semi-auto and full auto (select fire) weapons.

              A tedious level of pedantry to detract from the core point. The militia turned up heavily armed for no reason other than to intimidate.

              The argument between an "assault rifle" or semi automatic is largely irrelevant in this context. The fact they had AR-15s rather than M-16s is only of interest to pedants around terminology. The Meal Team Six heros turned up to defend their Nazi brethern from scary protesting clerics. (See: https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/pri_49385930.jpg?w=964&h=667&crop=1)

              You try to create an equivalence by saying "both sides turned up with shields and weapons" but the Nazis and their supporters turned up with body armour, helmets, multiple magazines and more middle-class-middle-aged-combat-fetishitic kit than any cosplay event would normally allow.

              They are an embarrassment to the US. They shame and mock those brave enough to have served the country and that they were there to support Nazis is enough to demonstrate it was simply wrong.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @Triggerfish ... Trump was right the first time

          You can use google to find the FB comment from BLM asking for PayPal donations to get people to the protest.

          Seriously.

          You can't make this stuff up, You just need to use google.

          Got a link cos on their facebook pages this doesnt exist.

      2. Lord_Beavis
        Pirate

        @Triggerfish Re: Trump was right the first time

        "apparently paid clueless locals"

        There, fixed it for you.

    3. sabroni Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Worse hatred happens every hour, on the hour...

      ...in places like Chicago, Detroit Baltimore and Los Angeles, daily.

      Seriously? Violent mobs assemble from out of state and proceed to beat locals up? That happens daily in those places? I guess the MSM just cover that shit up to make us think that Nazis are the baddies......

      1. ragnar

        Re: Worse hatred happens every hour, on the hour...

        It wasn't my comment, but more people probably die in these places from violence and hatred each day, every day.

        1. Stu Mac

          Re: Worse hatred happens every hour, on the hour...

          I think your subtlety went over the head!

      2. Ian Michael Gumby

        Re: Worse hatred happens every hour, on the hour...

        "Seriously? Violent mobs assemble from out of state and proceed to beat locals up? That happens daily in those places? I guess the MSM just cover that shit up to make us think that Nazis are the baddies......"

        No in Chicago there have been cases of violent flash mobs of kids beating up some locals but mainly tourists. But I think that's in the past.

        With respect to what happened in Virginia,

        Violent mobs attacked another mob who came prepared for violence and the police did nothing.

      3. Lord_Beavis
        Pirate

        Re: Worse hatred happens every hour, on the hour...

        "Violent mobs assemble from out of state and proceed to beat locals up?"

        Kinda like in Ferguson, MO?

    4. Potemkine! Silver badge

      Re: Trump was right the first time

      He needs to realize that the majority in this country are knuckle-dragging idiots who lack a half assed education

      He does realize quiet well and knows how to manipulate them: the people you describe are the ones who elected him for president.

      1. Stu Mac

        Re: Trump was right the first time

        and TBF if it's their country they should do WTF they like with it.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Trump was right the first time

      Ignoring the drivel before it:

      If Trump had explained that the Klan has been a part of the Democratic Party for 100 years, all hell would have broken out since no one knows that.

      This uses words which are, in different contexts, true.

      The Klan and the Democrats did share an ethos but this kind of means you need to dial your calendar back a century. Everyone knows this.

      However the bit you overlook is that it is no longer 1895. Both political parties have changed and the electorate has changed. If you are trying to align the Democrats and Klan then there needs to be some major revisionism around what the Republicans support and, to be fair, every republican should be out on the streets fighting the White Supremacists.

    6. Just Enough

      Re: Trump was right the first time

      "If Trump had explained that the Klan has been a part of the Democratic Party for 100 years, all hell would have broken out since no one knows that."

      Trump supporters are fond of this old chestnut about ancient history, because they think it can distract attention about away from current affiliations the current president has. While it is, no doubt, embarrassing and shameful that the Democratic Party were involved with the KKK 100+ years ago, it has no relevance to Trump's associations, policies and attitude, which are in need of far more pressing attention.

      The same applies to Trump supporter's laughable attempts at labelling ant-Nazi opponents as "alt-left" or "Marxists". There is no evidence that the counter protesters were Marxists, or even if there is such a concept of "alt-left". There were no mobs waving communist symbols, no chants about bringing down the capitalists. The idea that there is a Marxist movement of any significance in American, hell bent on overthrowing American values, is a fantasy created by the alt-right to justify their own actions. They hope to paint their opponents with the same extremist brush that they are tarred with. Indeed, in most cases, I seriously question if they'd know a Marxist if they even saw one. It's just a word they've heard that they understand all Americans should oppose.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Trump was right the first time

        Even Stalin wasn't a Marxist. Nor is Putin, though he is closer to being a Stalinist.

        These alt-right groups are playing into his hands.

      2. Sir Runcible Spoon

        Re: Trump was right the first time

        Based on eye-witness reports in this article : http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

        It seems that

        -the Neo-Nazis went there expecting, and provoking, trouble.

        -there were local (peaceful) protesters who were outnumbered and were being bullied by the NN's

        -Antifa were there and stepped in to take on the NN's

        -Violence escalated etc.

        From my point of view we shouldn't be focusing on the POTUS for not condemning the NN's enough (no mention on whether he was right or not in condemning Antifa) - we should be focusing on why the Police let this happen - it seems they were standing well back and there should be in inquiry as to why that was.

        1. Snorlax Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: Trump was right the first time

          @Sir Runcible Spoon:"we should be focusing on why the Police let this happen - it seems they were standing well back and there should be in inquiry as to why that was"

          The nazis were supported by the second amendment crazies with assault rifles. Presumably the police didn't want a repeat of the Bundy family's Bunkerville standoff in the middle of a small college town.

          1. Sir Runcible Spoon

            Re: Trump was right the first time

            Perhaps I'm missing something, being a right-pondian, but attending a rally (whatever side you are on) that is supposed to be peaceful and then turning up armed to the teeth strongly suggests that the terms of the permit for the rally to take place have been violated.

            After all, the Police are supposed to be the one's protecting people aren't they?

            So, the Police should have shut the rally down in the first place once they saw the NN's tooled up, Shirley?

            1. Snorlax Silver badge

              Re: Trump was right the first time

              @Sir Runcible Spoon:"So, the Police should have shut the rally down in the first place once they saw the NN's tooled up, Shirley?"

              Anywhere else on earth, yes, that would have been the sensible thing to do.

              The problem with Americans is that they think every constitutional right is absolute, and that their rights trump everybody else's.

              This is how you arrive at a situation where a bunch of nazis and gun nuts can bring a small town to its knees. The right to spew hate speech and intimidate people with assault rifles is apparently afforded more protection than the locals' right to go about their lives in peace and safety.

              1. Ian Michael Gumby
                Boffin

                @Snorlax Re: Trump was right the first time

                You should get some help for your fixation on guns. I would suggest seeing a doctor, but apparently under the NHS unless you tell them you're suicidal, its a six month wait.

                And if you actually bothered to learn your history, you would have looked at the 1977 SCOTUS decision which said that wearing a swastika is protected under the First Amendment. This also led to the 1978 attempts by a neo-nazi to march on Skokie.

                If you want you can google some recent articles in the Chicago Tribune that talk about the march as well as the protests around the decision by the Supreme Courts. Very interesting reading.

                And there were more than just Neo-Nazis. There were 'alt-right', 'former KKK' and other hate groups making up one side. On the other BLM, and Antifa were also present, armed and looking for a fight. Heck you can even google and find a FB post by BLM looking for Paypal donations to send people in to the city for a fight.

                Plenty of blame to go around son... and frankly, you and your lack of thought isn't helping. Nor do you appreciate the larger issue.

                If Americans were to make certain ideology groups outlawed, you would have started down the path of who's next? You want to go after Neo Nazis. Sure, I get it, who doesn't? What about the Antifa who's name is ironic because they are acting like the fascists they claim to hate? Black Lives Matter who's marches and protests have caused damage, shut down highways, and have openly called for the execution of the police? (Dallas, Louisiana, NYC just to name a few examples. )

                And then you have the BSA (Boy Scouts of America) which has been compared to the Hitler Youth.

                (Yes, you too can google it...)

                Do you ban the BSA?

                Really?

                Hopefully now you see the problem.

              2. Ian Michael Gumby
                Boffin

                @Snorlax... Re: Trump was right the first time

                Dude!

                You are so utterly clueless.

                I bet you support BDS too.

                Look mate, I'll break it down for you.

                You said :

                @Sir Runcible Spoon:"So, the Police should have shut the rally down in the first place once they saw the NN's tooled up, Shirley?"

                Anywhere else on earth, yes, that would have been the sensible thing to do.

                The problem with Americans is that they think every constitutional right is absolute, and that their rights trump everybody else's.

                So, clearly you're not an American and you don't know our history or our laws.

                Go back to 1977 (probably before you were born) and check out the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) supporting the right for a neo nazi maroon to wear a swastika on his arm.

                This is also the same maroon who wanted to march his neo nazi group, brownshirts and all , down main street in Skokie IL.

                He won.

                He made two attempts to march but they were shut down mid march because the police couldn't guarantee their safety. (He gave up on his third attempt.)

                Keep in mind, back then, you didn't bus people in, and you didn't need to have weapons.

                So, yes the police could have shut down the event in Virginia.

                As to our rights.

                Yes they do supersede other laws. And what you don't realize is that when you attempt to shut them down, you walk down a slippery slope that ends up with no freedoms and you're in some sort of kafkaesque world.

                I don't blame you for your ignorance. Too many Americans also fail to grok the importance of our liberties.

              3. Lord_Beavis
                Coat

                @Snorlax Re: Trump was right the first time

                "The problem with Americans is that they think every constitutional right is absolute, and that their rights trump everybody else's."

                That is what separates us from the rest of the (Third) World.

                The right to free speech (oxymoronically by paid permit in this case) guarantees that you can say your piece. No matter how right or wrong it may be. And I have the right to disagree with you. And then we can go get a beer and still be friends. Although, I don't want any friends that hate people based on race, religion, orientation, et al, ad nauseum.

                "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,"

                Some people seem to forget that from the DoI and that it is inexorably linked to the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

                But if you're not American, you wouldn't understand this kind of pride anyway.

                As a great King once said, "Can't we all just get along?"

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: @Snorlax Trump was right the first time

                  The American Constitution makes a good case study of the results to be expected when you let lawyers write the rules. Perhaps the British lack of a constitution isn't such a bad thing after all. The British system isn't perfect, it is capable of change and adaptation over time which the US system seems incapable of.

          2. Ian Michael Gumby
            Boffin

            @Snorlax Re: Trump was right the first time

            I suggest you learn the facts before you spout nonsense.

            Not everyone had rifles. And no they were not assault rifles. Class III weaponry is expensive and heavily licensed and regulated.

            The police backed off when the antifa members started chucking pop cans filled with concrete.

            There are some who are saying that the antifa noticed a pattern of police backing away when challenged with violence. Hence the violence protests. Ferguson, Berkley and others show this pattern to be true.

            1. Snorlax Silver badge

              Re: @Snorlax Trump was right the first time

              Bullshit. You're the only one spouting nonsense. Stop apologising for nazis and gun nuts.

              Plenty of media coverage of gun nuts with AR-15's in Charlottesville. Or do you get your news from Breitbart and Fox News exclusively?

              1. Ian Michael Gumby
                Mushroom

                Re: @Snorlax Trump was right the first time

                Son,

                First, you said assault rifles.

                Those are class III weapons. Under NFA regulation.

                Clearly you don't know your gun laws. (NFA is national, yet there are others that vary state by state )

                There were no assault rifles present.

                (Free clue. I live in Chicago IL. I can legally own an M1A. I cannot own a select fire M14, AR-15, or M-16, M4 or other variants. I cannot place my M1A in certain stocks that have a pistol grip. This is due to Chicago and Cook County gun laws. Of the guns I listed, M-14, M-16 and the M-4 are all select fire rifles which would classify them as assault rifles. The State of IL doesn't allow civilian ownership of NFA regulated weapons. Do you really want to question my knowledge of gun laws and weapons?)

                Now with respect to the march, not everyone was carrying a weapon. (The rifles were considered open carry) And funny how in all of the melee there was no firearm discharge, now why was that?

                (Again you need to know your gun laws...)

                So the only one spouting nonsense is you.

                You clearly don't know your gun laws and you clearly don't understand why no firearms were used.

        2. Ian Michael Gumby

          @Spoon Re: Trump was right the first time

          You are correct, except that the 'NN' wouldn't have attacked the protesters outright. That would have defeated their purpose.

          If the NN attacked, then the press would condemn them as thugs out for violence.

          If the NN didn't attack, then they can claim that they scared the protesters in to submission and claim victory.

          If the NN didn't attack but were attacked, and they defended themselves, they now have cannon fodder to recruit people and more money.

          BLM and Antifa both raised funds and attended the protest with the intent to cause violence.

          You are correct, the city and the police are to blame. There's more to that than what has been reported in the MSM. It appears the vice-mayor is a bit of a racist with a chip on his shoulder. There are reports that the antifa attacked the police which is why they backed off.

          It was a bonfire waiting to happen and multiple groups of people brought fuel and matches to the event.

        3. Lord_Beavis
          Black Helicopters

          @ Sir Runcible Spoon Re: Trump was right the first time

          "the Neo-Nazis went there expecting, and provoking, trouble."

          Yeah, they're stupid that way.

          "Antifa were there and stepped in to take on the NN's"

          There is some video evidence that they threw the first punch.

          "we should be focusing on why the Police let this happen"

          They were told by Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe to stand down (probably on George Soros's orders) so that it would escalate to violence. The escalation to violence is reportedly from a VA State Trooper.

    7. HausWolf

      Re: Trump was right the first time

      you need to make 2 changes, the klan had been part of the Democratic party and is currently part of the Republican party for the last 50 years.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        Re: Trump was right the first time

        The KKK aka Clan is dead.

        The Southern Poverty Law Center sued them in to bankruptcy and they no longer exist.

        The problem is that the group dies but the ideology survives.

        And to your point, they will align with the political party which they think represents their values.

        What you and others are missing is that there was a resurgence under Obama because they felt marginalized and threatened. I've spent some time in the South. I've met Good Ol Boys and Rednecks. I've seen racists too.

        Trump is a lightening rod because he wants to upset the status quo.

    8. cray74

      Re: Trump was right the first time

      If Trump had explained that the Klan has been a part of the Democratic Party for 100 years, all hell would have broken out since no one knows that.

      Plenty of Americans over the age of 40 remembers the solidly blue South. What's funny is that people waving the "Democrats were the Klan" flag try to avoid discussing Nixon-Reagan Southern Strategy, which captured all those Klan-loving Democratic voters for the Republican party.

      Sure, the Klan WAS part of the Democratic Party for 100 years, from about 1865 to 1965. Now the Klan is currently Republican, and has been that way for 40 years going on 50. If it's bad for the Klan to have been Democratic, what's that say about the current Republican party?

  4. corestore

    IBM owns the government.

    Seriously.

    Remember they don't sell their mainframe operating systems; they *rent* them.

    Who owns your OS owns your operation.

  5. My Coat

    Re: Hunt to blame for NHS attack

    Bit of a change of tack from IBM. I urge people to read "IBM and the Holocaust" by Edwin Black for details of their collusion with Nazi Germany.

    1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Re: Hunt to blame for NHS attack

      Why?

  6. Potemkine! Silver badge

    Once is enough

    IBM collaborated with Nazis in the past, it does not want to make the mistake to side with losers again...

    Elected by a minority of voters, Trumpy the dyed blonde clown is only the President of the United States of AmeriKKKa, he doesn't represent the values of the country of Abraham Lincoln, Dwight Eisenhower or Martin Luther King.

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon

      Re: Once is enough

      "he doesn't represent the values of the country of Abraham Lincoln, Dwight Eisenhower or Martin Luther King."

      Is there a viable candidate for the post who does? Genuinely curious.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        @spoon Re: Once is enough

        Is there a viable candidate for the post who does? Genuinely curious.

        Since you asked.

        Yes.

        Of all of the candidates, Kasich, was the closest. However he isn't perfect.

        During the primaries, he received the least amount of air time. Trump got a lot of free air time and did the most with it. Either he played the MSM, or the MSM wanted Trump because everyone thought he was a joke and Hillary could beat him.

        Biden could have ran, yet didn't. The DNC wanted Hillary and even rigged the system. So its not out of the question that the DNC colluded with the media to get Trump the Republican Nod. Early polls showed that Clinton would lose to Kasich while she would beat Trump.

        And its kinda funny how everyone points fingers at the Russians all the while the DNC fixed their primary because Bernie was supposed to lose.

      2. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: Once is enough

        There was one. He had to stop after 2 terms though...

    2. Ian Michael Gumby
      Boffin

      Re: Once is enough

      Clearly you are not an American nor do you know your history.

      If you look at the map of the US, Most of the counties are red. Meaning Trump won most of the US. This is by the electoral college which is in place so that the people are represented. He won because he played by the rules... and many found him to be a better choice than the alternative.

      At the same time... there are reports that there are a lot of illegal votes cast. Either by people voting twice, or illegal aliens voting, or even non-resident visa holders. How many is a good guess because no one has taken the time to do a real check. Not to mention the fact that several left wing groups are fighting against it. The motor voter law... the use of a governor's pardon, and down right voter registration fraud all show how non-citizens or those who have lost their right to vote, voted.

      And the Dems blamed the Russians...

      There are ways to enhance the security of voting (including the use of blockchains) but no one really wants that... which is ironic.

      1. strum

        Re: Once is enough

        >This is by the electoral college which is in place so that the people are represented.

        Clearly you know nothing about American history. The Electoral College was created to prevent populism. There is no way it could ensure "that the people are represented". Its rationale was to represent *districts*, ensuring that city mobs couldn't be exploited by demagogues.

        It didn't work, this time - but don't pretend that the EC is democratic. If the USA were a democracy, President Clinton would be in the White House.

        1. Ian Michael Gumby

          @Strum ... Re: Once is enough

          Oh but I do understand.

          After the election, one of the talking heads on the news said a comment that many here might understand. Without the electoral college we would end up with the dystopia found in the Mocking Jay Trilogy.

          It did work.

          Everybody, including the Russians thought that Hillary would win. Only Hillary skipped the 'fly over states' to hob nob with her best buds in L. A. attending parties and fund raisers instead of pressing the flesh. She lost the rust belt because of this.

          The MSM seems to talk about the elitists. The truth. Its the little guy that makes up the backbone of this country and we're sick and tired of being taken for granted. At the same time. Hillary, to get Obama's support aligned herself as continuing his idiotic world view and oppressive regulations. Not to mention, Hillary should be in jail, but that's another story.

          Had Clinton campaigned more in the Midwest in Wisconsin and Michigan, she could have won those states. But she didn't and she lost.

          The other thing to remember. Polls are voluntary and depending on the questions being asked and where they are being asked you may get the wrong answer. Many of Trump's supporters were mainly in the closet. They didn't want to voice their opinion in public out of fear of being ostracized. Also many voted for Trump for various reasons. Some over the Second Amendment, Others over the Supreme Court pick, others over taxes, or healthcare. Some on multiple issues.)

          So yeah, I know American history a wee bit better than you and most here. Some of which I got to see first hand.

          1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

            Re: @Strum ... Once is enough

            @ Donald J. Gumby;

            "Its the little guy that makes up the backbone of this country and we're sick and tired of being taken for granted"

            We? We?!?!?

            After all your incessant banging on about how many expensive weapons you own, there's no 'we' here. Stop pretending you're one of the downtrodden masses, man up and quit apologising for the tangerine fucktrumpet who's doing his level best to turn your country into the National Socialist States of Amerika.

            1. Ian Michael Gumby

              @Lord E Puss Re: @Strum ... Once is enough

              Yes We.

              I know many blue collar types who own many more guns than I do. Farmers tend to own one or two field shotguns, a .22 rifle and a hunting rifle. Or multiple hunting rifles and .22s.

              Depending on the weapon, prices will vary.

              And I'm not apologizing for Trump. He's the POTUS and you need to respect that.

              So please get clue.

              BTW, its the far left which are closer to being fascists than Trump.

              1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

                Re: @Lord E Puss @Strum ... Once is enough

                "He's the POTUS and you need to respect that."

                He's not my president, and respect is earned. He hasn't earned it.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: @Lord E Puss @Strum ... Once is enough

                And I'm not apologizing for Trump. He's the POTUS and you need to respect that.

                Remind me how Obama got treated while POTUS - by Trump......

              3. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: @Lord E Puss @Strum ... Once is enough

                BTW, its the far left which are closer to being fascists than Trump.

                This is just not true. You are more likely to get to Kansas by clicking your heels three times and wishing than making this true by saying it over and over again.

              4. Swarthy
                WTF?

                Re: @Lord E Puss @Strum ... Once is enough

                And I'm not apologizing for Trump. He's the POTUS and you need to respect that.
                Funny how a lot of the people saying that (Not necessarily M. Gumby - I can't be arsed to dig through his comments) are the same ones who had Zero respect for Obama.

                See Also: Waving a confederate or Nazi flag while proclaiming "You lost, get over it!"

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Once is enough

        > there are reports that there are a lot of illegal votes cast.

        Only by the Orange Clown himself, and his sycophants.

        > and down right voter registration fraud

        Included in those found to be registered more than once were: Steve Bannon, Steven Mnuchin, Tiffany Trump.

        http://fortune.com/2017/01/25/mnuchin-bannon-voting-registration/

        1. Ian Michael Gumby
          Mushroom

          @AC Re: Once is enough

          Son,

          Trump based his statements on two research papers which concluded that there was a lot of illegal voting.

          There was confirmation of both sources. Of course without further inspection, there is no way of knowing.

          However...

          1) Gov of Virginia got caught trying to pardon a mass number of convicted felons so that they could vote. 300K voters would have swung the state in the Dem's favor. His action was challenged and he gave up on it after only commuting/pardoning a handful of people.

          2) In Indiana (Gary) There was an incident where a group which registered black voters had been caught forging registrations along with having 18 registered voters to a single apartment.

          3) There are instances where people voted in two different counties / states. They were registered voters in both areas.

          4) In several states there are inconsistencies in voter registration. The voter rolls needed to be cleaned. People who hadn't lived in the area for man years were still registered. Judical Watch sued the State of Ohio and got them to settle and agree to updating and cleaning up their rolls. Judicial Watch also has started action against the state of California.

          There's more, but you get the idea. Its not just Trump making a wild accusations.

          And you point to something that is an issue. People who have moved from another area are still registered. BTW all those names you mentioned only voted once.

          I suggest you get a clue and actually leave your bias at the door.

          There is enough evidence to call for an investigation. This would be an incredible DS exercise.

          Its the first step in protecting our votes.

          There are many more instances of illegal voting. Does it add up to the 3 million? That remains to be seen.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Once is enough

        At the same time... there are reports that there are a lot of illegal votes cast. Either by people voting twice, or illegal aliens voting, or even non-resident visa holders. How many is a good guess because no one has taken the time to do a real check.

        Yes they have. And nearly all the instances of voter fraud appear to be linked to Pro-Trump people. Odd that. Dont rehash myths with vague assertions that something is too hard to know. This has been looked into. Google it.

        And the Dems blamed the Russians...

        Well not just the Democrats. Pretty much everyone. The US Intelligence services, every single private sector company who had access to the data and most governments in the rest of the world.

        Maybe only Trump and Putin know the real truth but, to be honest, the only way Trump could know for sure it WASN'T the Russians is if he was in the pocket of the Russians and had access to their data. Which is quite a quandary, don't you think?

        For ANYONE to say it wasn't the Russians you have to either say everyone else is wrong and even the publicly available information is wrong (which raises many more questions about how it links to events Russians have admitted to) or they have secret knowledge. Which is it?

  7. System Lord

    IBM used to pay for performance. Now they pay through the nose for diversity. When did all this start? About the same time their financials started to tank. Hmmm...

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      re: Now they pay through the nose for diversity.

      Do they? I thought the research showed that diversity was good for business? Was that just the MSM pushing it's agenda?

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Maybe Ginni walked away, but that would have been after no one, including Trump believed her BS about creating jobs in IBM, everyone knows she has just been making tens of thousands of skilled employees redundant every year, and employing smaller numbers of cheap "new collar" graduates who have no clue, to service what's left of IBMs customer base.

  9. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Trump

    Making Amercia Great again one disasterous tweet at a time.

    That line came from a June 2017 episode of BBC's 'Dead Ringers' radio show.

    Very close to the truth IMHO.

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon

      Re: Trump

      1. Trump is a reactionary.

      2. There appears to be a concerted effort to put him under constant pressure from all angles

      3. Trump reacts as predicted and shoots off own feet (how many *does* he have btw?)

      If this doesn't scream hidden agenda then you might want to take a step back.

      I'm fairly sure even level-headed rational people would struggle to make positive progress under these circumstances, let alone someone who is compassionately challenged.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Trump

        1. Trump is a reactionary.

        That is a polite way of saying he has almost no impulse control, is a bigot and cares more about himself than anyone else.

        Nothing here says "good presidential candidate" - I am stunned he managed to pretend to be a good business man.

        2. There appears to be a concerted effort to put him under constant pressure from all angles

        Wow. Its almost like he is the President of America. Even George W Bush coped with more pressure than Trump has folded under.

        Trump is a perfect example of why supposed "business leaders" make crap politicans. He is incapable of running the country. He is incapable of leadership. He is unwilling to set an example.

        You'd think from his efforts to ruin Obama's tenure, he would have some idea of what to expect but it appears he is so bone ignorant he had NO IDEA what being president (and presidential) would entail.

        3. Trump reacts as predicted and shoots off own feet (how many *does* he have btw?)

        Yeah, you are right, he shouldnt be part of a high school debating society let alone the PRESIDENT OF AMERICA.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Trump

        Should that be shoots off his own tweets?

        It isn't called TWITter for nothing. Why would anyone waste their lives on it? Perhaps it should be called Trumpeter.

        On second thoughts, if you really want to have an impact then everyone should delete their twitter account now to remove his audience. Twitter are bound to replace their chief salesman Trump once their revenues drop. Just hoping this happens.

  10. gbshore

    Hey Forum, "worryingly tepid response" from Trump? You are nothing more now than the mainstream media.... go back and review the interviews of Trump even before he became President. His response was welcomed by the mother of he woman killed. Stick to FACTS and not political bs....

    1. Mark Price

      Nazis and Naziism are evil. No ifs buts or maybes.

      People who oppose Nazis are to be applauded, supported and helped in every way possible. Not least by the Commander In Chief.

      1. Mad Mike

        I think the important thing here is that all extremists are bad. Whether from the left or the right. Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao etc. killed just as many and potentially many more than Hitler and the right wing extremists did. All extremists are bad and generally tend to use the same techniques in their 'quests'.

        One such technique (used by the Nazis amongst others) is removing peoples history, culture and sense of identity. This was practiced by the Nazis against the Jews for instance. The irony is interesting in relation to what's going on in Charlottesville.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          One such technique (used by the Nazis amongst others) is removing peoples history, culture and sense of identity. This was practiced by the Nazis against the Jews for instance. The irony is interesting in relation to what's going on in Charlottesville.

          Except this isn't about removing history or culture - they can still exist, thats why we have museums, books and education.

          The Nazi's started off by claiming their culture was under threat (the oppression of Versailles and the inability to form an Army) and that all these other cultures were there chipping away at their sense of identity. When everyone else gave in and let them have an inch, then they started stomping on other people's cultures.

          If the White Supremacists really feel their culture and identity is being suppressed then it simply means they have failed to integrate with the nation they claim to be part of - which is where the real irony lies.

      2. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        @Mark Price.

        So Trump condemned the Neo Nazis and the 'Alt-Right' groups.

        But he also condemned the Antifa and BLM groups that were also present.

        No false equivalency. Some say Evil is Evil. Believing that, does being evil but a little less evil than the other guy mean you're not wrong too and should be condemned?

        The truth is that regardless of what Trump said, he was going to be attacked. That's a verifiable fact.

        What others miss is that by supporting the concept of Free Speech, and the right of these hate groups to say their peace... is that I and others are condoning their actions and their rhetoric. That is the furthest thing from the truth.

        I understand what can and will happen if we start to relegate what can be said and what can't. That's walking down the path of fascism. We must support our freedoms even if we find it being abused.

        I suggest that you go back and read Trump's quotes.

        You may find you don't disagree with what he said.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ginni Rometty - slimier than Mr and Mrs Slime in a slime bath. Ugh...

  12. poohbear

    "Hi, I'd like to be your customer."

    "Let's first discuss your political views...."

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon

      I'm glad someone else is picking up on this angle.

  13. mako23

    I'm glad she has left maybe she also do the world a favor and leave IBM, she has certainly has had an effect on the stock price

  14. Snorlax Silver badge
    Headmaster

    At least...

    ...IBM got Hitler's trains to run on time. However I don't think they've ever issued an apology for their nazi-sympathising past.

    IBM and the Holocaust by Edwin Black is a great, if depressing, book on the subject.

    "“We have worked with every U.S. president since Woodrow Wilson,” Rometty added. "

    Kinda worked with every U.S. president since Woodrow Wilson, she meant to say. They did business with the nazis through a front company based in Switzerland as the U.S. government had forbidden U.S. companies from dealing with them.

    Grammar nazi, because there's no nazi nazi icon

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: At least...

      Are IBM in Russia, China or North Korea?

      1. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        Re: At least...

        Russia? Yes

        China? Yes

        Norks? No. There are other countries supplying them.

        Iran too for that matter.

  15. MJI Silver badge
    Unhappy

    I could not have done that comittee

    I would have spent the entre time punching Trump in the face.

  16. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Trollface

    Nice pic for the article

    Shame the wrong finger is up

  17. Grunt #1

    Our grandfathers

    are turning in their graves. They gave their lives to defend democracy and rid the world of Nazis and Fascists.

    Defend democracy because as Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest."

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon

      Re: Our grandfathers

      If only we actually *had* a democracy, rather than the appearance of one, eh?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @ Grunt 1 Re: Our grandfathers

      Try father and uncle.

      Uncle fought in the Pacific. The Japanese culture is one of the more racist cultures even today.

      Do you want a litany of their war crimes in the 1930's thru 1945? Yet you and others focus on the Nazis.

      My father fought in Europe. He was in the 14th armored division. They were the ones known as the liberators because they liberated POW camps and some of the Death camps. (Russians liberated some on the Eastern Front as they advanced.)

      He was also an MP guarding suspected Nazi POWs after the war.

      In 1977 the Supreme Court said it was OK to wear the Swastika and its protected under the First Amendment. Many Jews argued that it was hate speech. My father too was unhappy with the SCOTUS decision. Yet he agreed in their reasoning. Do you know how much pain that decision caused to the Jewish communities around the country? And you can thank the ACLU for defending the NN nutjob who wanted to wear it.

      You want to end the Neo-Nazi fascist cunts? You educate them.

      You want freedom, you have to take the good with the bad. Once you start restricting freedoms, you have to wonder where it will stop.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        Re: @ Grunt 1 Our grandfathers

        I want to also add the following:

        One of my father's closest friends grew up in Nazi Germany.

        He wasn't a Nazi, nor were his parents. His older brother was and had turned his parents in.

        His parents were killed during a bomb raid. (Imagine coming home from school to dig your parents up from your bombed out house only to then have to bury them.)

        He was drafted at 16 as the allied forces entered Germany. He surrendered without firing a shot.

        He came to America and was under my father. Many of my father's Jewish coworkers hated him because he was German and some lost family during the war. My father who fought, took him under his wing. Over time the other Jewish Coworkers accepted him.

        The point, you lead by example. Sometimes you ignore things like Antisemitic remarks so that you can be the better man and hopefully change the other person.

        The sad truth... you can shut down these hate groups, but unless you educate them, those sick twisted ideals will fester and there will be another hate group. And the sad sick thing... you don't have to be white to be a hater.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    SOMEtimes YER GUTTA FACE yer CHOLLEGNES!

    OTHA wheel in WOL-MORT They'd guns and MOOVED THA do-NOTS. I NORMALLY GETTIM IN A sack of 20 Or 50 and THEY WERENT WERE THEY SHULDABIN. I axed THE SALES PERSUN """"godammitwheremah DO NUTS!""" And SHE SEZ THEY BI IS EYLE 15. So I SEX AND "hat MAY FINGERZ AM IMHLDIN UP and .. she Says FOOR AND K SAYS and Haw MAY NOW and She Suzie SIx SO THATS OK"". ANYWYA By this method I FIND THE DONUTZ although I NEARLY EUN OUT OF BATTERIES, maybee ALONG MOSQUE should GETBHIS TINSEL car company Or WHATEVER THEY BE A. Called ON TO IT. ELANG is CLEEVER MAN INthonk.

    ANY WAI sum. hours LATER O have My DO-nits, I'm IN MAH TRAYLOR and I'm SEINKIN A BEEER and thinking ABIUT THIS AND TRUML. TRUMP. AND IF I can face my challenge Rhen so CAN HE.

    But WHO THA HULL is this GUMMY RIMSHOT person. HU Case what THEY THINK?

    Y'Latah.

    GET too IT trump. IMOVTED YOU COS YURS SMARTER THAN me and mybDAWG.

    AH'm not NAKKID TODAY. maybe Tumorrow.

    1. Chris G

      Re: SOMEtimes YER GUTTA FACE yer CHOLLEGNES!

      Well, it's nearly the weekend so I guess your next challenge is asking your sister for a date Saturday.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: SOMEtimes YER GUTTA FACE yer CHOLLEGNES!

        SHE BUSI with nah POP.

    2. Ucalegon

      Re: SOMEtimes YER GUTTA FACE yer CHOLLEGNES!

      Well, that's a breath of fresh air and cuts through a lot of us v them bull flying around.

      Now, can you solve the problem of NURTH CAREER today too please, thank you?

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    100 years = 1895? Do the math...

    100 years ago = 1895? Do the math.

    100 years ago, in 1917, Woodrow Wilson was president.

    “We have worked with every U.S. president since Woodrow Wilson,” Rometty added.

    Yep. And Woodrow Wilson, for those who actually know history, was famously supported by ... the Ku Klux Klan.

    Just saying...

  20. OhReallyNot

    Morals bought and Paid for

    IBM goes full retard, but only so far as to keep taking money from the federal government. If IBM was so f*cking worried about diversity they would cancel all US Government contracts. But we all know thats aout the only thing that is keeping IBM afloat with Ginni ruining IBM.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    In November 2016 IBM CEO Ginni Rometty wrote to then-president-elect Donald Trump with a list of ways IBM hoped to help the real-estate tycoon Make America Great Again.

    Granma Beemer and IBM are helping Trump to make the country great again?? We are **SO** screwed.

  22. razorfishsl

    Notice she lists out who they have worked with to "improve" mankind's lot....

    The full irony of this is that IBM were instrumental in record keeping for the Nazis and many of the Death camp inmates actually have the IBM card number still tattooed on their skin.

    So a company with past Nazi links beats down a president about how bad nazis are.

    Seems she failed to mention this little gem.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Forget your history; be prepared to repeat it.

    Near the British Houses of Parliament and around London you will see examples of statues of tyrants and rebels included in UK history. Boadicea, Oliver Cromwell, Jan Smuts, Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Ghandi and Abraham Lincoln. Some had a doubtful record but by having their statues we are reminded of their contribution as well as their defiance of the order of the day. It seems a shame that the state of the nation in the US means an intolerance for people of their time. Surely it is possible to add a plaque highlighting the bad as well as any good they did.

    I say we keep statues of our villains so we are reminded of the damage they can do. Perhaps Disney can put up a statue of the clown in chief.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Trump

    I know what a clusterf*** looks like now.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like