back to article Canadian ISPs do not Canuck around: Bloke accused of piracy grilled in his home for hours

If you thought American or British copyright fights were petty, consider the case of Canadian Adam Lackman – who had a bailiff, lawyers, and computer experts burst into his home, seize his gear, and grill him for hours. Lackman, a self-described tech entrepreneur, hosts the TVAddons website which links to plugins called addons …

  1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    The true nature of big corp

    This is revealing of just how little big corporations feel they need to respect the law. Once they get a ticket in, they go in far further than they should have.

    And there was a lawyer there. Didn't he think to put a stop to things at 8 PM ? No. Did he think to tone it down a bit to respect the law ? No. And why didn't Lackman have the right to consult with his lawyer ? Since when does a company have more power than the police ?

    Unbelievable. I hope Lackman can fight back and get them for millions in damages. When you behave like the Gestapo, you deserve to get shot down in flames.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The true nature of big corp

      The true nature of capitalism

    2. Don Dumb
      Flame

      Re: The true nature of big corp

      @Pascal Monett - "why didn't Lackman have the right to consult with his lawyer ?"

      I read it as he wasn't *allowed* to consult his lawyer, not that he didn't have the right to, which would be a big red flag for me. If someone (who isn't even in the police) is in your house, taking your stuff, questioning you AND THEN saying "no you can't get your lawyer", then it's pretty clear they know they aren't doing what they're allowed to.

      This is where giving many millions in damages really is justified. Even the police can't just do whatever they want to you in your house, private individuals or corporations certainly can't and should be heavily dissuaded from doing so, the only way they understand.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The true nature of big corp

        When I was made redundant for the first time I was informed that I could have a union representative present or another member of staff at the one to one meetings. When I enquired if I could have a lawyer present the HR bloke said "No sorry you can only have staff or union." I then asked If I could have a family member present only to be told that he didn't think so but would check, the company said no*. Which is a shame really as I was hoping to bring a family member who is a barrister and put the wind up them. I really wanted them at the meeting so that I could then say and this is my brother Mr So and So QC and see what happened.

        *As it stands at the moment there isn't a statutory requirement for anyone else to be present at redundancy meetings aside from you and HR. I believe however it is good practice for employers to allow you to have a fellow staff member or union rep.

        1. Hollerithevo

          Re: The true nature of big corp

          I was asked by a colleague to be with her during the 'redundancy' negotiations (they were railroading her out due to the boss having spite against her). I was a newby and seemed harmless. Yes, I was, but my partner was General Counsel at an investment bank and my goodness did I get good advice in advance of every meeting.

          Colleague wanted to leave, certainly by the end of the first 'negotiation', but she went away with ££££. A proud moment.

        2. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: The true nature of big corp

          > When I enquired if I could have a lawyer present the HR bloke said "No sorry you can only have staff or union."

          This is Mr Jones, QC, representing the Union.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The true nature of big corp

            Sadly I wasn't represented by a union and I didn't think it would be fair on our head of legal affairs (who owed me a favour) to ask him to be my staff rep. Suspect it might have been a conflict of interest for him as well.

        3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: The true nature of big corp

          I believe however it is good practice for employers to allow you to have a fellow staff member or union rep.

          In the redundancy process that I had to carry out at a previous workplace, we explicitly were told that staff could bring union reps, a solicitor or a family member if they chose to. What we didn't want though was someone bringing 3 warm bodies with them so we limited it to two..

          It was probably the single most stressful thing I've ever done in my life.

        4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: The true nature of big corp

          When I enquired if I could have a lawyer present the HR bloke said "No sorry you can only have staff or union."

          It would have been interesting to see what happened if you just turned up with your brother. They probably wouldn't have had the legal nous to determine whether they had the right or not if your brother simply said "See you in court".

      2. Wade Burchette

        Re: The true nature of big corp

        "Even the police can't just do whatever they want to you in your house, private individuals or corporations certainly can't and should be heavily dissuaded from doing so, the only way they understand."

        And the only way to do that is to directly punish the decision makers, not the corporation. You punish a large corporation with a fine, it is just a write down for their business and at most a temporary stock drop. You punish Dr. Evil with a large fine and his minions who carried out his orders with a fine, then these actions will stop. You must directly punish the individuals responsible for the decision, not the faceless soulless corporation.

        1. Pete4000uk

          Re: The true nature of big corp

          I wish this would apply to the state sector as well

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: The true nature of big corp

          "And the only way to do that is to directly punish the decision makers, not the corporation."

          You punish the lawyer by getting him disbarred.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The true nature of big corp

      Unbelievable. I hope Lackman can fight back and get them for millions in damages. When you behave like the Gestapo, you deserve to get shot down in flames.

      The bit I hate most is that they can basically prevent justice by making fighting back financially impossible. In my opinion, justice is not justice if it depends on the size of your wallet but this is exactly what is happening and it's far too common.

      1. e^iπ+1=0

        Re: The true nature of big corp

        "making fighting back financially impossible."

        Sounds a bit like the Hulk Hogan thingamajig.

        Deep pockets win.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The true nature of big corp

        Not just big corp's that do this, had an accident at one employers home, sent there to assist the company carpenter, putting a roof over his unfinished swimming pool (fell through the roof landing in the hardcore base 18 feet below), luckily banged my head on a rafter as I fell so unconscious and floppy, damaged my left knee and broke my sternum, the knee 30 years on still has issues with OA. I was even more lucky the 1" thick 8'x4' sheet of ply missed me, same day locally a guy fell 9 feet onto concrete and was killed outright. Went to a solicitor and was told don't pursue it, you'll win no doubt about that, but the employer will keep taking it back to appeal until he bankrupts you, he's got form for it. He did it so often all the local legal people would give the same advice...

    4. Oh Homer
      Big Brother

      This is what Corporatocracy looks like

      Or more bluntly what Mussolini originally defined as Fascism.

      I know, that word is used far too much, mostly by student protestors as a sort of polemic to incite outrage, but the fact is that when private corporations wield this kind of legal power, there is no more apt description.

      As for TVAddons, just like a torrent index site, or even the almighty Google search engine, it's just a tool, and tools do not break laws, people do, or more specifically only some people using those tools sometimes do, so for anyone, much less a private corporation, to so aggressively go after the toolmaker - not those merely using it, much less those abusing it - is an utter travesty.

      Indeed this nonsense about "facilitation" in general needs to be stamped out once and for all. There are N degrees of "facilitation" between all things. Should Victorinox be prosecuted for "facilitating murder", just because some nutter uses one of their kitchen knives to stab someone to death? The entire premise of "facilitation" is utterly ridiculous, and would not be supported in a real democracy.

      And that's before we get anywhere near the question of whether the supposed abuse of copyright infringement "facilitation" tools causes any genuine harm to multi-billion dollar Content® manufacturers in the first place, whom you will note continue to make their multi-billion dollar profits regardless, even without the custom of "pirates" who would under absolutely no circumstances ever be paying customers anyway, and the magical thing these multi-billion dollar Content® manufacturers have supposedly "lost" due to this nefarious "piracy" is completely ethereal, presumptive and mostly just wishful thinking.

      But in a regime where private corporations have, thanks to decades of neoliberal machinations, essentially become the State, sadly their wish is your command.

      1. e^iπ+1=0

        Re: This is what Corporatocracy looks like

        "As for TVAddons, just like a torrent index site, or even the almighty Google search engine, it's just a tool"

        I would say that TVAddons is closer to an app store than a torrent index.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fight club

    I keep reading about Kodi usage in other countries, but never hear anything about Kodi usage in the US. Is it not used here for some reason, or do those who use it here just not talk about it?

    1. kain preacher

      Re: Fight club

      has kodi on her raspberry pi

      1. Martin J Hooper

        Re: Fight club

        Same here - Only streaming plugin I have is Youtube... All the other things I watch are streamed of my other Pi file server

    2. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: Fight club

      Most of the time I hear about Kodi, it's being used to watch football (what you call 'soccer'), so that particular use isn't going to be common in the US.

      1. Orv Silver badge

        Re: Fight club

        The US also doesn't have TV licensing fees, so there's fewer incentives (and fewer legal consequences) to trying to watch broadcast TV via streaming. Kodi is fairly popular with DIY home theater buffs in the US, because it provides a nice interface to your media collection that you can drive from the couch with a remote, but I don't think as many people use it with streaming plugins or buy pre-loaded boxes with it.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Fight club

        "Most of the time I hear about Kodi, it's being used to watch football (what you call 'soccer'), so that particular use isn't going to be common in the US."

        There appears to be large amounts of US sports to stream too. I assume some of that is subscription based or not necessarily otherwise available live in the home cities of the teams playing. IIRC someone posted the other day to say that home team games are often not broadcast live locally.

        The other use for some of the addons is so people can get access to tv series as they are broadcast, and that does tend to be big US TV shows which US viewers are already getting first anyway.

        1. Orv Silver badge

          Re: Fight club

          IIRC someone posted the other day to say that home team games are often not broadcast live locally.

          (American) Football and baseball are routinely blacked out:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackout_(broadcasting)#United_States

          MLB also blacks out streaming feeds from radio stations, in favor of their own for-pay streaming service.

          However, their streaming service is *also* blacked out for local games, which can be quite frustrating if you're technically in the blackout area but don't have good radio reception. (Here in SoCal mountains have an annoying tendency to get in the way, and reduced power levels after dusk mean some AM radio stations have much smaller coverage areas at night.)

          NFL blacks out local broadcasts of games if the game doesn't sell out, to encourage physical attendance. As you can imagine this is controversial and results in all kinds of perverse incentives, like stations buying up blocks of tickets to make sure the game sells out, or teams blocking off rows of seats.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No decency

    In much of the western world there is still some pretence made that corporations do not take precedence over the law.

    Perhapse he could convert to Islam and claim "racism"?

    1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

      Re: No decency

      Perhapse he could convert to Islam and claim "racism"

      Hint - Islam != "race".

      I think the phrase you are looking for is "discrimination on the basis of religion". Which is also unlawful.

      1. dmacleo

        Re: No decency

        while what you say is accurate and the way it should be in the real world it does not happen.

        racism is the accusation used.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Facepalm

          Re: No decency

          Exactly why I used that wording.

          glad one person got the reference, love the "corrective" votes on the reply.

          It's just too easy to wind people up these days.

  4. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    WTF?

    Thugs

    Should be in jail. The lot of them. And their so-called lawyer must have known they were operating illegally (even in the unlikely event the others didn't) so should get a life sentence - that's the maximum sentence over here for unlawful imprisonment.

    1. John G Imrie

      Re: Thugs

      I was thinking that I'd be suing them personally for false imprisonment and false arrest and I'd also be checking whether I could get the lawyer and bailiff struck off.

  5. Chris G

    Anyone comes to my house with a bailiff and lawyers unless they have cops with a warrant as well, hey can fuck off. Regardless without an arrest, they wouldn't get my passwords either, a night in the nick would have got him better use of his legal rights than staying at home with a shit load of scum sucking lawyers and corporate shits.

    1. Don Dumb

      @Chris G - "Anyone comes to my house with a bailiff and lawyers unless they have cops with a warrant as well, hey can fuck off."

      If ever there's a group that works on the principle that people don't know their rights or what is allowed by the law it is bailiffs.

      1. Chris G

        @Don when I lived in the UK I was in the process of disputing a parking ticket, the council sent one of their fat overbearing bailiffs to try to get money out of me. His first mistakes was trying to push past me into the house. I'm not a big guy but 5 years in the Army and a history of martial arts since the '70s left him on his arse. His second mistake was telli g me I was going to get 18 months in Belmarsh for assault, Belmarsh is a high security prison more fore terrorists and killers than little me. My wife was at the same time calling the police to have him removed for attempted illegal entry, at that time without an invitation a bailiff could not enter at all.

        1. Wensleydale Cheese
          Stop

          "the council sent one of their fat overbearing bailiffs to try to get money out of me. His first mistakes was trying to push past me into the house."

          You should never let bailiffs into your home.

          Golden Rule 1 - Don't Let Bailiffs or Enforcement Agents In

          If you allow Bailiffs in voluntarily, they can force entry when they revisit your home on another occasion.

          3 Golden Rules in dealing with bailiffs

    2. JimboSmith Silver badge

      I used to work in a small office somewhere and someone came to the door one day asking if they could be let in to see the people in the third floor offices. He didn't name our company and the girl on the building's reception desk who was a tough cookie said I'll have to call them and check. As we'd never heard of this bloke we told her we'd send someone down who when arriving in the foyer was told that the bloke had left. Evidently (we checked the security camera footage) he waited until lunchtime and spotted that the receptionist had gone for an hour and then walked in and sat down in the foyer. After a couple of minutes he asked security (now manning the desk) if he could use the toilet whilst waiting for his meeting. After being told where it was waited at the toilet door for someone to come out of the pass locked entry door. He then walked very quickly over to the door and got his foot in to stop it locking. Took the lift to our floor and then used the entry phone to try and get someone to let him into the office.

      Now he says he's a bailiff here legally to recover goods on an unpaid court order against company ABCQXYZ ltd. Someone points out over the speaker that we're not ABCQXYZ ltd. they vacated the office about 6 months before. He doesn't give up, says that he's heard that one before and we'll just end up owing more if we don't settle up. Someone does go to the door to tell him through the glass (showing headed notepaper to prove who we are) that we're calling the police and building security which doesn't faze him at all. We did however have a lawyer there that day and he told the bloke after looking at his court order to sod off in legalese. Security arrive and tell the bloke to leave and confirm that ABCQXYZ ltd. have left the building for good. Never got to the bottom of it but it would appear that someone hadn't updated the address for the court order. We had had a letter addressed to the other firm about a week before which had simply been "returned to sender" and that may have been the first attempt by the bailiffs to get in touch.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        > After being told where it was waited at the toilet door for someone to come out of the pass locked entry door. He then walked very quickly over to the door and got his foot in to stop it locking.

        Presumably "security" have educated their staff about unaccompanied visitors?

        Alternatively, pass doors near the public toilets have been updated to a dual door system?

        1. JimboSmith Silver badge

          We were trying to work out whether he had an accomplice who distracted security at the appropriate point. The lady who was asking for directions was certainly distracting give the (almost lack of) outfit she was wearing. There would normally have been two people in reception at any time and one should have been watching the security door into the building from the foyer as well as the cameras. As It happened the second receptionist had a very bad cold and was off sick that day. He just got lucky or the girl in the Daisy Dukes was there to captivate the attention of security. I now work somewhere else but when I left they were going to pass protect the lift so that you needed a pass to call the lift

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Where I live (in the US), unless it's law enforcement with a warrant, anyone else that forces themselves into your home is subject to deadly force. And that's exactly what would have happened to these thugs. I would have called the corporation and told them to come get their trash out of my house.

      There is a law in my state that refers to "crossing the threshold", meaning a door, window, etc. that allows a homeowner to use deadly force. If someone passes through your front door without your permission, you can shoot them. It happens occasionally here. The homeowner is almost never even arrested. It has to be very unusual circumstances for someone to get prosecuted for trying to protect their home.

      Home invasion robbery is very rare here!

      There is a funny story about the home builder that built my house, a guy named Cal. He also lives in the same small town as me. He held a power company employee on the ground at gunpoint until the local sheriff arrived. It seems this guy from the power company wouldn't leave Cal's property when told to do so. When the sheriff arrived, he told the power company guy the he would recommend he leave when asked in the future. And, that was that. No charges against Cal.

  6. Alistair
    Unhappy

    /hangs head.

    ..... sadly I've worked for one of these entities......

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon

      Re: /hangs head.

      +1 for the decency of owning up and being ashamed.

  7. earl grey
    Devil

    I guess they're lucky

    Pulling that stunt in the US might have found them face to face with a loaded shotgun. I'm not a gun nut, but invade my property and try to buffalo me and you're in for it.

    1. kain preacher

      Re: I guess they're lucky

      Depending on the state, pushing your way into some house is and indentation to meet the angel of death.

      1. kain preacher

        Re: I guess they're lucky

        invitation. Curse auto correct.

        1. TheElder
          Devil

          Re: I guess they're lucky

          Nothing wrong with the auto correct. It is an AI term for the Angel biting hard.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I guess they're lucky

        It is in my state.

  8. Cuddles

    Missing time

    "Sixteen hours later they were still there, and had subjected Lackman to nine or more hours of grilling."

    I now have a lovely mental image of them all sitting around sipping tea and awkwardly avoiding eye contact for the other 7 hours.

  9. Wolfclaw

    Question has to be asked, who is the real criminal, Lackman, or big business who basically have broken so many rules and laws, but will no doubt get away with it, due to Government and legal system being in their back pockets. Hope he wins his case and sues them for millions !

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    What is wrong with this guy?

    If a bunch of people, who are not law enforcement officers arrived at my house and start telling me that I must let them in, I'd simply shut the door. If they get a foot in the door and try to force their way in, I'd defend myself.

    I'd be calling the police and if they prevented me from using my phone, I'd be fighting my way out and shouting for my neighbours that I was being robbed and to call the police.

    Letting a bunch of people claiming some authority, which they obviously do not have, into your house and just sitting there answering their questions and handing over your passwords on request is just stupid.

  11. Number6

    He said he was told he'd be hit with contempt of court allegations if he refused to answer questions, and he wasn't allowed to consult with his lawyer for much of the time.

    I appreciate it's much more difficult at the sharp end but the response to remember here is "if the court will not permit me to consult with my lawyer before answering questions then I have nothing but contempt for the court".

  12. TheElder

    What is wrong with this guy?

    If a bunch of people, who are not law enforcement officers arrived at my house and start telling me that I must let them in, I'd simply shut the door. If they get a foot in the door and try to force their way in, I'd defend myself.

    Precisely. While we cannot have a loaded shotgun handy in this country there is nothing wrong with the three pound loaded hammer at my feet. Hopefully the foot is wearing metal toed boots. Those toes will be trapped almost permanently... I also have some bear spray. It is only for bears, never humans. That is what it says on the can. I am also allowed to use it on cougars and even sharks...

    1. Chris G

      Re: What is wrong with this guy?

      I live in Spain now, the local Commisioner for Police is a friend of ours, I was talking to him after having been burgled a few years ago and asked what rights I had if I was in the house when somebody entered illegally.

      His answer was that everyone has the right of Citizens arrest and of course if the miscreant resists you have the right to subdue him, oh, he definitely tried to resist your honour and I happened to have this coin purse with €5 worth of copper coins in it! ( about the equivalent of a lead sap).

    2. Number6

      Re: What is wrong with this guy?

      I am also allowed to use it on cougars and even sharks...

      Lawyers and sharks are related species, aren't they?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What is wrong with this guy?

      I am also allowed to use it on cougars and even sharks...

      It truly must rain an awful lot at your place if there is a possibility that sharks can show up at your door.

      :)

  13. Aynon Yuser

    These bully tactics were used so as to make an example out of him, to deter or scare others into not messing with them. Eventually though a "David" stands up nails Goliath right in the balls.

    I've contributed some cash to the little guy. I wanna see the bully telcoms get their balls kicked in.

    And this is the first time I've ever financially contributed to any cause.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    quite right

    The raspberry_pi folks had a scare recently re. DVD playback, you have to pay for a mpeg4 and aac license because the media companies threatened to sue them if they included playback natively onboard.

    AFAIK the money this raised all goes back into product development now.

    Interesting to note that any device with direct S video or composite out/in is classed within the euro zone as a video recorder thus attracting a royalty payment. This applies to graphics cards as well.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like