back to article Openreach kicks off 'rebrand' by painting over BT logo on vans

Openreach has finally started removing BT's logo from its 22,000 vans, "unveiling its new branding" four months after the former UK state monopoly agreed to a legal separation of its broadband division. The changes will begin this month and continue over the next four years on all vehicles, customer-facing websites and apps, …

  1. frank ly

    Costs?

    Does anyone know how much a rebranding exercise like this costs, over the expected four years of repainting, reissuing notepaper, etc. activities?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Costs?

      The way they are doing it relatively little.

      Replace as wears / runs out.

      A sensible approach for once.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Costs?

      In layman's terms rather than marketing parlance, a rebrand is called polishing a turd.

    3. silks

      Re: Costs?

      Lots, I suspect. Coming to a BT Broadband invoice near you soon :(

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Bluntly, Openreach - fuck everything else, concentrate every penny on putting Fibre in the ground.

      Anyone that has read past posts on the subject, regarding BT's Pointless "up to" G.fast will know this was all predicted. Stop re-arranging the deck chairs.

      Bluntly Openreach - fuck everything else, concentrate every penny on putting (pure) Fibre in the ground, it's the only thing that fucking matters, regards the local loop. Concentrate your Pea sized brains for once.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Openreach kicks off 'rebrand' by painting over BT logo on vans

        Bluntly Openreach ....concentrate every penny on putting (pure) Fibre in the ground

        Unfortunately, the way that the Openreach "separation" has been done, it isn't within Openreach's gift to make that decision. The decision sits with the owner of the wires and ducts (which remain directly owned by BT) and the ineffectual regulator, Ofcom.

        Openreach are in practice a captive O&M provider, nothing more. They could supervise the construction of pure fibre networks, but they can't decide to do it. BT group could make the decision, but won't decide to do it, because they are simply treating the local loop and exchanges as a cash cow to get the minimum of investment in return for the maximum return. And the regulator is powerless, partly through its own incompetence, but primarily because BT have the politicians over a barrel with the historic liabilities of the GPO/BT pension scheme.

        BT's argument (which has certain truths to it, by the way) is "if we lose ownership of the Openreach network but keep the pension liabilities, we go bust, and then you (government) have an embarrassing problem of the order of £10bn of pension promises that won't be honoured".

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: Openreach kicks off 'rebrand' by painting over BT logo on vans

          "Openreach are in practice a captive O&M provider, nothing more. "

          This is _why_ when New Zealand regulators was being sold the BT/Openreach model they decided that the telco had to be split into utterly separate Lines and dialtone companies with separate shares, BoD, CEO and head offices.(*)

          And to ensure that happened without years of court challenges, they simply made it a condition of the government providing any further broadband funding.

          As a result, without the dead hand of Head Office decreeing what the lines side could or could not do with ducts and lines(**), the market transformed from a poster child of how _NOT_ to privatise your telco into one of the most competitve markets in the world. Fast forward 6 years and less half the population is taking dialtone or broadband from the former monopoly.

          The ironic thing is that the former monopoly rapidly started crying that the regulator-set line charges were far too high, despite being based on (but lower than) costings that former monopoly had provided before the split. Everyone else was happy as the rates were less than half the previous ones.(***)

          (*) Along with legal provisions preventing any entity from gaining a controlling interest in the Lines company. Hostile takeovers are not permitted.

          (**) "Psst, hey Virgin Media, how would you like to lay your cables in our ducts instead of digging up streets to get to those pesky unreachable last few customers?"

          (**) No, they didn't get the special discounts they were demanding.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Will it really make any differece?

    For example, a senior BT executive told our community that we would never get anything better than FTTC as there was no profit to be made (we only got FTTC after the tax payer stumped up). I don't think that position is going to change.

    1. JamesPond

      Re: Will it really make any differece?

      If the profits / losses still flow back to BT, then it is implicit that whoever runs Openreach day-to-day must have a responsibility to BT shareholders. Therefore unless Openreach is split off completely with no direct or indirect control from BT, it must still favour BT over the competition, no matter what it promises.

    2. Phil W

      Re: Will it really make any differece?

      "a senior BT executive told our community that we would never get anything better than FTTC as there was no profit to be made"

      Given the cost of providing FTTP, especially in areas where the ducts are difficult to access, collapsed, or already at capacity, or you're too far from the nearest cabinet due to the bizarre route to your property, the man hours required to assess and deal with that not to mention the actual materials cost, I'd say that saying there's no profit to be made is a generous statement. The reality is more likely there's massive loss to be made.

      If you were to fully fund an average to difficult FTTP installation yourself it would easily cost thousands of pounds. For Openreach/an ISP to fund that would be exceedingly difficult. To stand any realistic prospect of breaking even on the install you'd need to be tying the consumer into a 5-10 year contract which almost no residential user is likely to agree to.

      Not to mention if you're in a rural area there may not be sufficient upstream capacity from your exchange to cope with any quantity of FTTP households.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Will it really make any differece?

        One thing that makes FTTP cost even more is that not all customers want/need it.

        I'm in that position myself. I live in a rural area where FTTP is available from the telegraph pole in front of my house. It must have cost a fortune renewing cable ducts and blowing fibres to the manifolds on telegraph poles around my village, however my dirt cheap ADSL connection is very good. Currently it's just touching 15Mb/s so I see no reason to pay more for FTTP speeds. Essentially the money spent on the FTTP roll out has been completely wasted.

        1. Pax681

          Re: Will it really make any differece?

          " I'm in that position myself. I live in a rural area where FTTP is available from the telegraph pole in front of my house. It must have cost a fortune renewing cable ducts and blowing fibres to the manifolds on telegraph poles around my village, however my dirt cheap ADSL connection is very good. Currently it's just touching 15Mb/s so I see no reason to pay more for FTTP speeds. Essentially the money spent on the FTTP roll out has been completely wasted. "

          aye, for YOU.. however there are many who do actually want these incredible speeds for many reasons.

          1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: Will it really make any differece?

            however there are many who do actually want these incredible speeds for many reasons.

            Like me.

            Because? Speed. Moar speedz.

            1. Anonymous IV

              Re: Will it really make any differece?

              > however there are many who do actually want these incredible speeds for many reasons.

              ... such as being able to download myriad Windows Updates faster.

        2. Mark 110

          Re: Will it really make any differece?

          "It must have cost a fortune renewing cable ducts and blowing fibres to the manifolds "

          Nah. Fairly inexpensive. Bit more expensive to get fibre to your actual house but they will charge you an installation fee if you order it.

        3. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: Will it really make any differece?

          " I live in a rural area where FTTP is available from the telegraph pole in front of my house."

          Specifically for rural areas, FTTP is a very good idea for one simple reason:

          Fibre is immune to a lightning strike on the overhead cables making its way into your premises and blowing the innards out of all your connected equipment (power distribution is largely immune to this because of the extensive grounding everywhere, most lightning strikes come in via the phone lines)

      2. kain preacher

        Re: Will it really make any differece?

        ATT in the US is going to fiber for one simple reason completion. With copper they have to allow other companies to come in and use their facilities and open up adsl to other companies. By going to all fiber they do not have to allow completion . This locks you in so your only choice is ATT Google(if they are in your area.) and the local cable company. Also fiber band with makes it easier for them to do cable TV.

        I went with ATT fiber because they have no data caps if you have direct tv. ( yes there is a data cap on my plan in theory but wevery one I talked to says its waived if you have TV through ATT. So far I've not hit any data cap I'v used as much as 6 gigs in a month before.

        1. frank ly

          Re: Will it really make any differece?

          "... I'v used as much as 6 gigs in a month before."

          Did you mean a day? My Virgin Media (UK) cable connection used to have a 2GB a day throttling limit. Now, I think it's much higher and I once downloaded 5GB in a day with no slow down.

          1. JAK 1

            Re: Will it really make any differece?

            I've never had any issues with Virgin throttling or limiting. I get the full 200Mb/s

            I've done 35gb+ this month, and that's about average

            1. phuzz Silver badge

              Re: Will it really make any differece?

              In a shared house of five people, all with their own computers, we get through almost 1Tb a month combined upload and download. Never noticed Virgin throttling us.

              1. William 3 Bronze badge

                Re: Will it really make any differece?

                We're a household of 3, with almost 1Tb download.

                They do throttle, eventually. Noticed it on several wet weekends when we've all ended up staying in, streaming most of the day, and bought a game on steam.

                60gb games x 3 = is almost 1/5th of a terabyte just on it's own.

                1. Mark 110

                  Re: Will it really make any differece?

                  "They do throttle, eventually. Noticed it on several wet weekends when we've all ended up staying in, streaming most of the day, and bought a game on steam."

                  That will be capacity issue rather than throttling. Wet weekend = everyone in your street stuck in the house hammering their internet connection.

            2. William 3 Bronze badge

              Re: Will it really make any differece?

              "I've done 35gb+ this month, and that's about average"

              I'm close to pushing a terabyte a month. And yes, I do get slow downs. But it's to be expected given the usage.

              And before anyone asks, that amount isn't pron or warez. It's simply HD youtube, HD Netflix, HD Amazon and Steam.

              3 people in a household, no cable/live TV. Soon adds up.

          2. Mark 110

            Re: Will it really make any differece?

            VM have ceased throttling I am told by an old colleague who is now a senior network manager. They work on the basis that 99% only download alot occasionally. He tells me they do go after abusers but the average user who just wants to download 3/4 movies a week or stream when they are home has nothing to worry about.

            Just don't try and download all the movies ever published at full speed all the time.

          3. Baldrickk

            Re: Will it really make any differece?

            Virgin don't throttle downloads at all now (and even before, it was temporary throttling, not a data cap).

            Now they only throttle if you use too much upload...

          4. Jediben

            Re: Will it really make any differece?

            5GB in a month? I do that in 15 minutes on my VM service!

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Will it really make any differece?

        Phill, and if we cut your wage from BT, it would be a start.

      4. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: Will it really make any differece?

        For Openreach/an ISP to fund that would be exceedingly difficult. To stand any realistic prospect of breaking even on the install you'd need to be tying the consumer into a 5-10 year contract which almost no residential user is likely to agree to.

        The bit of the cable that goes from the property to the cabinet has to be paid for, this is an ongoing cost that could switch from ISP to ISP as the customer does, n'cest pas?

        Unfortunately this would require a huge loan behind it all but you can't have everything.

        1. Phil W

          Re: Will it really make any differece?

          "this is an ongoing cost that could switch from ISP to ISP as the customer does, n'cest pas?"

          No, because that makes the assumptions that the property will be continuously occupied for the lifetime of the loan and that all the occupants in that period of time will be willing to fork out for fibre.

          If the current occupants moves out/dies/whatever and the property is empty for an extended period, nothing gets paid. If the new occupant says "15Mbps is more than enough, no fibre for me thanks" they won't be paying either.

          It looks like another poster has assumed I work for BT, I don't and never have. But I do work in IT and have first hand understanding of the difficulty of old cabling infrastructure and ducting, and the massive cost of getting new fibre put in. Businesses pay these costs, generally up front, separately to the ongoing service cost, but for some reason residential consumers seem to expect Openreach or ISPs to absorb this massive cost with no guarantee, or even decent probability, of recouping it.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: Will it really make any differece?

            No, because that makes the assumptions that the property will be continuously occupied for the lifetime of the loan and that all the occupants in that period of time will be willing to fork out for fibre.

            Not everything is guaranteed in life. Loans have interest rates to take this into account.

            If the new occupant says "15Mbps is more than enough, no fibre for me thanks" they won't be paying either.

            Perhaps it could be done like water meters, once the change has been made, there's no going back. Someone could contract a voice-only or slow line, but it'd be fibre nonetheless.

            (I didn't downvote.)

          2. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: Will it really make any differece?

            "the massive cost of getting new fibre put in."

            Is about the same as rerunning copper.

            Which is why it doesn't make sense to only put copper in on new installations or to replace copper lines with copper lines when they're fragged - and the reality of the UK today (particularly in rural areas) is that most of the copper network _is_ fragged.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Will it really make any differece?

      I remember campaigning for ADSL in 2003/4 for a small rural village, some public school condescending clipped accent (from the WDA-Welsh Development Agency) told me in no uncertain terms that it was just a small market town, that there was absolutely no prospect of ever getting ADSL/Broadband (I'll never forget it).

      They'd had turned up (no expense spared, with lots of expensive freebies) in the public car park of the town in a high tech lorry/come mobile conference studio, to tell us this.

      So much money is wasted on crap, talk, bullshit. When you're constantly repeating to yourself - shut the fcuk up and (someone) just put the fcuking cables in the ground.

      We'd just moved from Central Edinburgh (where we'd had ADSL), having to transition back to "up to" 56Kbps dial-up moving there due my other half's job with the NHS at the time...

      Now, every house in that street we lived is signed up to FTTC/Broadband, as a result of multiple local campaigns.

      Don't get disillusioned, get even, get out and fight the condescending nay-sayers. Rurally you have to fight for everything, it taught me that much at least. I don't think people realise how Rural communities have to fight for every crumb, it was enough to make us leave.

    4. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Will it really make any differece?

      "we would never get anything better than FTTC as there was no profit to be made "

      The response in that kind of case is to create a community broadband project and start signing people up. BT can and will fall over itself to install FTTC to head this off.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Here's the video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNS4zvhExgg

    costs? - at least £5,000 just for the catering I'd say :-)

  4. silks

    Hey Reg - no picture of the new logo in your article just to show how awesome/awful it might be?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I couldn't give a sh** regards a new logo.

      Fibre. Premises. We Connect.

      That should be their new statement.

      If we had a recent regulator, they'd put a stop to this superficial waste right now. Ofcom is such as waste of space. Ofcom knew this would happen as a result of their regulatory actions. Incompetence beyond belief.

  5. m0rt

    "Selley has indicated Openreach wants to take a more collaborative approach following its legal separation from BT"

    No shit.

    In other news, Google wants to own data*, Tim Cook does Scrooge McDuck impressions in Apple's vault.

    *THE Data. All of it.

    1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Asda started selling "Free Range Milk" recently, with the cavert that the cows were housed 6 months of the year during Winter. They'll try anything. Genuinely, I'm not lying - link.

        http://your.asda.com/news-and-blogs/free-range-milk

  6. Stuart 18
    Facepalm

    What's the cost for just the Website Logo

    The brief written description on ElReg left me curious to look at this new logo...

    HoHum! 13:20[GMT+1] still has a very evident BT logo. These clowns can't co-ordinate their website updates with their press releases.

    Please feel free to update my snarkiness if and when they show any co-ordination

    1. SImon Hobson Bronze badge

      Re: What's the cost for just the Website Logo

      Me too - went to their website to see what sort of doodle they'd paid out lots of money for, and at 13:35 it's still very much a BT logo on there. Given that the website is probably the easiest of the lot to update, it says a lot about their plans and processes !

    2. caffeine addict
      Trollface

      Re: What's the cost for just the Website Logo

      Didn't you read the article? They're only going to update things when they replace them. That logo's staying there until they rebuild the site.

  7. Anonymous Blowhard

    I'm not sure if this is wiping lipstick off a pig...

    1. WonkoTheSane

      No. It's just changing the shade.

      1. m0rt

        or firing a paintball gun at pig's face.

        Not that I condone that sort of behaviour.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      At the AC, re: lipstick on the pig.

      They're just changing which end of the pig gets the lipstick.

  8. grizzly

    Same, same, but same. Still report to BT, still have investment decisions finalised by BT. Meanwhile our FTTP coverage is woeful. OFCOM isn't a regulator, its a lobbyist for BT.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Meanwhile our FTTP coverage is woeful."

      You know, if your willing to pay more than £100 installation and £15 a month, it is possible for a huge amount of the population.

      Where we are there is no "FTTP", yet we have hundreds of them coming in.

      Odd that...oh yeah we paid shit loads of cash for them.

      What you are trying to say is cheap FTTP coverage is woeful.

    2. Martin-73 Silver badge

      Ofcom are not a lobbyist for BT, they're a pain in the arse of the customers they're meant to protect the interests of. Since they took over from oftel, BT have been banned, by them, from allowing me, the customer, to talk to openreach, the provider of most of the faults. Making co-ordination very difficult and faults now last 10x longer than previously

  9. Eccles1

    http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/07/openreach-unveil-new-non-bt-branding-showcase-independence.html with a photo and timeline.

    1. caffeine addict

      All things considered, that's not a bad rebrand. They've kept the font, used more of the brand purple, and replaced the old multicoloured fibres with something that doesn't look too awful.

      On the flip side, if I saw one of their vans, I'd have no bloody clue what they did...

      1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

        @caffeine addict

        On the flip side, if I saw one of their vans, I'd have no bloody clue what they did...

        It's a long time since logos reflected what a company or product is/does.

        1. caffeine addict

          Re: @caffeine addict

          Agreed. Most companies still have a hint of what they do written on them too - but then I suppose most companies like to advertise who they are...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      That's only an indicative time line - Openreach won't commit to an actual time line until you place your order.

      At which point, while most of the rebrand will be finished on schedule, some critical line will be delayed by a further 5 years.

      Of course I'm bitter, i have to deal with Openreach...

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Sept 2017 – The majority of Openreach websites and customer-facing mobile apps

      Oh Christ, how difficult is it to open Paint, go through the images directory, erase the BT parts of logos, then redeploy?

  10. Dr. G. Freeman

    Should go back to the yellow vans.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yellow Vans again...Shower of Yellow Piss comes to mind...

      Shower of Yellow Piss comes to mind...

      Everyone in this industry has got to stop defending BT's obfuscated bamboozled copper carcass network (stuffing their own pockets, in order to promote snake oil in terms of Pointless "up to" G.fast), and get on with replacing the copper carcass with pure Fibre. G.fast is a can of worms waiting to happen.

      No more fcuking excuses, we have to have a Telecom Industry that serves the whole of the UK.

      Pointless G.fast will never do this.

  11. Alastair MacDiarmid

    How about they spend the money they're wasting on a nice new logo by sorting out my rural broadband desert instead.

    They could just shove a cheap white plastic sticker over the BT logo as that's all they're doing with their business model.

  12. MrT

    Four years to change the logo...?

    Ah, it must be an in-house team of crack Openreach logo technicians doing the job. The first two tries will be utterly rubbish, then they'll get it right on the third attempt.

    Plus ça change, I suppose.

  13. anthonyhegedus Silver badge

    I'm aware that OpenRetch don't have engineers that can walk and talk at the same time so do we have to wait four years for the rebranding of the vans to take place before they'll actually put fibre into anywhere?

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