Uber loses court fight over London drivers' English language tests Taxi app Uber has lost its legal challenge to Transport for London’s requirement that its drivers must pass English language tests, according to reports. The Financial Times, whose reporter was at the Administrative Court for the oral judgement delivered by Mr Justice John Mitting this morning, reported that drivers “must do …
"One of my favourite channels actually."
Me too. After a busy week dealing with stuff I can and have to understand, it's v relaxing to watch a channel in a language I only understand a few words of. Farpaisean Chon-Chaorach (sheepdog trials) and DIY le Donnie (DIY programme presented by a guy with an old-fashioned and non-BBC approach to health and safety) are my favourites.
"how many British passport holders would actually pass the £180-a-go English tests"
All the ones who have a GCSE, or equivalent, don't have to.
(added)
The CEFRL that TfL references requires
Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc.
Can deal with most situations likely to arise while travelling in an area where the language is spoken.
Can produce simple connected text on topics that are familiar or of personal interest.
Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes and ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans.
>Odd. My dream and hope is to have a taxi driver that
Why not dream of owning a car and a liscence? Or dream and hope for a car, and a motorcycle for nice days also?
(This brings along subsegment dreams and hopes which include: the traffic will let up, and that the parking space will be open. Fair points.)
"I'm curious to know how many British passport holders would actually pass the £180-a-go English tests"
Wrong way to look at it.
There are plenty of people born, bred and educated in the UK who have the reading level of a 7 year old. Yet there are those who come from outside of the UK, Europe, Africa, wherever, and they have a better comprehension of the English language than most natives do.
Yet there are those who come from outside of the UK, Europe, Africa, wherever, and they have a better comprehension of the English language than most natives do.
And I doubt any of these will have problems passing this test. Unlike me if I needed to become an Uber driver here and had to take a Portuguese test. Which, I have to add, would be perfectly right and proper, as far as I'm concerned. (The fact that I don't have a driving licence might prove a bigger stumbling block, but that's beside the point...)
Forget British Passport Holders. They may be, after all, Arab or Swahili recently arrived in UK. I'm not curious about how many of my ethnically English 20 or so close neighbours would pass this English test, because I can tell you it would be about three. Most of them have no idea where Europe is and appear unable to read a newspaper.
To be fair all the ones I know have, most of them don't live in enclaves either. I have met a few people abroad (not neccessarily Brits) who think they shouldn't need to or just don't for some other reason. But seems a bit stupid to me.
When travelling I at least try and learn, hello, thank you etc in a country I am going to be in.
while I don't disagree with your post in anyway I'll simply ask.... is it acceptable if you're Asian/ Chinese/ Polish/ whatever?
all major cities in the uk have enclaves of various nationalities, living together, speaking their own language, buying stuff in shops owned and run by people of the same nationality, selling stuff they've imported from the country they've all left to live here. Integration? yeah we've heard of it.
I see no problem whatsoever in requiring people who interact with the general public being required to speak the main language of the country they live and work in.
Please do come and live in my country, you're very welcome. All I ask is Live by the same rules I do, speak the same language I do. I've lived and worked in Italy, guess what language I spoke. It's simple courtesy.
And while we're on the subject, they're not ex-pats they're immigrants!
er.. sorry bit of a rant there :)
"And while we're on the subject, they're not ex-pats they're immigrants!"
The OED says an ex pat is "a person living permanently abroad", whereas immigrate is "to come into a foreign country to live there permanently". So Gary "Fingers" Bankjob* living on the Costa del Sol is an immigrant into Spain, an expat from the UK, and somewhere on Scotland Yard's "most wanted" list.
* The names have been changed to protect the guilty. I ain't no grass.
> The OED says
I believe the other gentleman refers to the habit of calling, for instance, a British person working in India an "expat" (short for expatriate), while an Indian person working in Britain would be referred to as an "immigrant". The former has neutral to positive connotations, where the latter is seen as neutral to negative.
I can sometimes get why people want to live in enclaves, living in a foreign country as much as you can enjoy it and such can sometimes be stressful, especially if the place feels very foreign culturally (I'm thining Asia and such rather than Europe). I can get why some people want an area where going out and doing simple things like shopping can be preferable if it is eaiser and a lot of enclave areas tend to facilitate towards that, your more likely to find a Boots or Marks and Spencers* in those areas, a better grasp of English etc and sometimes you really need something easy like that.
Don't get me wrong sometimes you want the adventure but sometimes it can be knackering and stressful. I've visited friends in Thai suburbs and popped out to get lunch and it's become a mission especially as my grasp of the language is limited. Go out country where it's less cosmopoiltan, on a bad day everything feels like more work.
Sometimes you need to re-immerse in your own culture a bit for sanity or comfort, same way you can be surrounded by exotic dishes but sometimes just crave some comfort food in the form of a pie.
*A girl I know used to try and buy underwear in Thailand, size 12 UK, very sporty trim figure, she would walk into Thai shops and they would laugh and say "No your too fat".
> Integration? yeah we've heard of it.
Careful with that. "Integration" as understood in most of Europe involves, implicitly or explicitly, renouncing one's identity to a large degree, and the expectation that one will adopt traits, customs, and habits with which one cannot meaningfully identify.
> Please do come and live in my country, you're very welcome.
Keep in mind, the moment someone unpacks his suitcase, it is now "his" country as much as it is "yours", and whether you like it or not, they had the freedom to choose and you (if a native) didn't, so...
> All I ask is Live by the same rules I do,
...those are rules which will be agreed upon by all together, and revise and adapt as the host society evolves. An obvious example are the British Isles, where a Germanic language is predominant, the cuisine (the edible parts of it anyway) comes from the colonies, and entertainment from the US.
> speak the same language I do.
Why? A language is part of one's identity, and it is important that people are able to express that. Of course, in some cases language also serves a communication purpose (it is not its main purpose, certain renowned linguists argue), and then it is of course highly desirable that we be able to exchange information effectively. Even that may and is often achieved, sometimes even more effectively, without the interlocutors using a common language.
> I've lived and worked in Italy, guess what language I spoke. It's simple courtesy.
Friulan? Ligurian? Ladino? German? Piemontese? Sardinian? Albanian? Catalan? French? Greek? Slovene? Tuscan? Venetian?
All those are languages of Italy, meaning they are spoken natively by communities with a historical presence in the country--in every case, since well before the Italian language was codified in the first place. Speaking Italian (more or less an artificial language, as I just mentioned) is not courtesy, it is a fallback for when the information exchange function of language overrides the identity expression function, or as part of a negotiation process with an unknown interlocutor. It is quite fascinating, in parts of Italy, to see natives conducting a conversation in two or three languages, none of which standard Italian.
The concept of a nation-state as the normal form of a state is quite novel, having its genesis in a process that in Europe started towards the middle of the 19th century and culminated with the Second World War.
>And conversely, when Brits go abroad, they should learn the language of the land, rather than assume the world speaks English. Living in a British/English enclave is not the way to integrate.
I agree with you that people should make an effort to at least learn some of the language however it just so happens that English is the de facto international business language and the world's most widely spoken language. If you are an international business traveller it's not going to be practical to learn every single language on Earth, Esperanto was a valiant effort to please every country politically but never took off. Good luck trying to simultaneously learn Arabic, Mandarin, Russian, German, French, Spanish and Japanese; only a few thousand more to learn after those.
"If you are an international business traveller it's not going to be practical to learn every single language on Earth,"
You raise a valid point. Just not for this article. The article is about long term residents seeking employment on a specific country in an area where communication i the native language is a significant requirement. I very much doubt these Uber drivers are planning on visiting and working in multiple countries.
> however it just so happens that English is the de facto international business language and the world's most widely spoken language.
Purely on the basis of experience, I must disagree with you there. As someone who does business internationally, I use four to five languages in the course of my professional day-to-day, plus one or two other languages socially.
If you are a monolingual English speaker, you will be at a terrible disadvantage against most of the world, and in particular against every recent graduate of a European university, who will have studied a minimum of two foreign languages, plus whatever their local language(s), plus whatever their own / family / social language(s) may be.
You may find it idiotic having to learn, let's say Norwegian, to do business there, but when your Norwegian speaking Belgian competitor¹ gets that multi-million dollar contract after taking the local client out for beers and a social chat in *their* language, let's see how much of a consolation is going to be the argument that "English is the language of business".
¹ True story, more or less.
Yes, the ground was "we need out workers pool to be among those most desperate to find a job and work for nuts. Those who can't speak the language of the country they moved in are the best ones".
And while right now a judge can't rule against a call centre in the EU, just wait for the Brexit to happen....
he couldn't understand the signs warning HGVs not to attempt it.
The supposedly EU standard signs with no text on them? Pity the EU can't do something useful like standardizing the actual level of a driving test across the union. That, of course, would be politically impossible and the comissioners know it. It's much easier to justify their self-importance by standardizing stuff like the size of a bar of chocolate, that makes so much more difference to our daily lives. Useless bunch of wankers, the lot of them.
Pity the EU can't do something useful like standardizing the actual level of a driving test across the union
As a motorbikerist, I can tell you that the EU has a standard test for motorbikerists, in fact it is so standard it is stupid. Mod 1 of the test you take off road and have to travel at a minimum speed of 31mph, not 30mph, 31. This brings it in line with the rest of the EU who use KPH so the minimum speed is actually 50kph which we can't do so we do 31mph.
What? Are you provided with an off-road bike then, because most road bikes would be bloody dangerous at anything more than 5mph off road
From context (albeit with no actual knowledge of the regs) I assumed it meant "off [the public] road", i.e. pootling round the test-centre carpark. Forcing neophyte bikers to take a Goldwing up Mount Snowdon would be considerably more entertaining tho :)
"What? Are you provided with an off-road bike then, because most road bikes would be bloody dangerous at anything more than 5mph off road :)"
Bikes have obviously gone downhill then, because the Triumph Sports Cub I learned on and the T100 I subsequently rode were road bikes that could easily manage dirt roads and fields at well in excess of 50kph. Even my Velo Viper was reasonable on occasional dirt with "universal" tyres.
As The Register reported earlier this week, Uber’s lawyer Thomas de la Mare argued that about a third of the app’s 110,000 drivers would fail the £180-a-go English tests because it would be too difficult for them.
Sounds to me like he's claiming foreign non-english drivers are incapable of learning a new language and hence is discriminating against them based on a perceived racial stereotyping of intelligence levels. Not really the sharpest of defence lines.
The requirement isn't a GCSE in English, it is a GCSE or equivalent in a subject that was examined in English, so if you have a GCSE in Chemistry, then that is fine.
The exam you have to sit if you don't meet that requirement is much easier than a GCSE. You have to write a 130 word essay. I can't remember how long my GCSE essays were, but certainly a lot more than that.
The way the text was written is ambiguous. It should have been written "A GCSE or equivalent qualification tested/examined/given in English" or something along those lines.
If you think the UK has language issues, come to the US where The Man® panders to every alphabet and language on the planet. People like me are oh soo insensitive for suggesting that English should be made the official language. I cringe when I see voter pamphlets in Spanish, Vietnamese and Russian. What's next? Hieroglyphs?
I don't understand what makes you "cringe."
Is it your own ignorance at not being able to read those languages? Is it the thought of "those people" being able to vote? Is it the color of their skin? Is it typical American white male insecurity? Is it shame at the size of your "hands?"
Maybe it's the expense of producing pamphlets in languages other than the official one for people who have reached a level where they are allowed to vote without being able to speak or understand said official language and therefore the issues they are voting on, ie citizens of the country.
To be fair, Uber drivers do require English knowledge less often than normal Taxicabs, since the app is telling them where to go. Technically, they only need for a normal ride to confirm the name of the passenger. And maybe inform the passenger they've arrived.
Of course, there's still plenty of potential situations where they would need to communicate with the customer, so I can't sat I disagree. Also, fuck Uber.
"To be fair, Uber drivers do require English knowledge less often than normal Taxicabs, since the app is telling them where to go."
Except, of course, all those temporary roadworks signs advising in advance of road works or telling you which way to go to divert around them in English words rather than possibly ambiguous "icons", especially in London which is the area the case is about. That can be difficult enough for a normal driver if they are not familiar with the area and the relevant street names.
In the days when mini-cabs were the wild west, I had a driver who relied on early Tom Tom and went completely wrong. I was trying to get to an important appointment and knew the best way to get there, but although he was a nice guy and trying to get me there, I couldn't make myself understood, until I started drawing little maps and passing them forward.
Über is a German word
Shouldn't cause any problems since the company's business model is banned there, isn't it?
In my experience of German taxis, Uber was a solution searching for a problem that didn't exist.
Here in my provincial UK location, the taxi drivers already speak little or no English, don't know the rules of the road, and don't own their vehicles as they operate a car pool where four or more driver use a raddled, dirtty, unroadworthy old shitheap on a near continuous shift basis, so there's certainly a problem waiting for a solution, but Uber seems to be a wrapper with exactly the same contents.
A bit like "Just Eat", which seem to be a wrapper for the very worst food outlets that you'd never voluntarily set foot in..
"A bit like "Just Eat", which seem to be a wrapper for the very worst food outlets that you'd never voluntarily set foot in.."
Oh, I'd not go that far WRT to JustEat. They've become so ubiquitous that many people don't even bother to find the good local takeaways any more so the good ones have to be part of the network too or they lose too much business. My local Chinese and pizza places are part of it now, but don't like it. They have to charge the same prices as for walk-ins but pay a commission to JustEat. They don't get much extra business but do lose out on some profit. Yet another "disruptive" industry that adds very little to life in general, just creams off "a little hear and there", hoping no one will notice the obscene profits they make for almost no work or added value.
"Über" is a German a word - with the umlaut. Without, it looks more the "uber, uberis" Latin word - which means "abundance", but also "breast" - which is probably the original meaning from which the idea of "abundance" is derived. But it looks the right meaning for the company, they want to suck money out of people....
When I first heard of this I thought Uber should turn this into a positive and allow passenger to request a driver that could speak their language. While English may be a requirement, being able to speak another language then becomes a positive for visitors and the service.
Uber wanted a postcode for my destination. Ok, I said here it is.
Where are you they said? I gave them the postcode
I gave them the postcode but their outdated SatNav system (or wet strinng) didn't recognise it.
Ok, so it was a new development but really? A black cab would have let me tell them a nearby landmark and worked from there.
9 months later and we still can't get one to come to the development.
The local Cabs and MiniCabs all know where we are. Guess who gets the business eh?
Uber wanted a postcode for my destination. Ok, I said here it is.
Where are you they said? I gave them the postcode
Worrying, I wonder how many times a Uber taxi turns up to the location Google maps indicates for a given post code and can't find the prospective passenger because they are 400+ metres away and out-of-sight...
Also for one particular client in France I have to tell the taxi drivers not to drop me at the location their system indicates, which is in the middle of some woods but 1.5km further up the road at the gatehouse of the chateau...
I'd be with TFL on this if our local minicab drivers could do more then 10 words in a comprehensible accent and I am not a native English speaker. But alas, they can't and TFL is not concerned. That says a lot for the GCSE or equivalent qualification. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
Bullsh*t?
I'm in California, and this happens quite frequently. Good thing I did take Español in high school, but that was a few (God I'm getting old) years ago. You should see the languages the driving test is given in here, it would surprise you. At least they don't give it in Klingon (yet).
Interesting the correlation between non-british taxi drivers and satnav users drawn by others. Maybe they've had the pleasure of being driven by one of those who mounts a 7" screen prat nav directly infront of the steering wheel on the windscreen and then proceeds to drive peering over or to the side of it occasionally, but mainly just follows whats on the screen. And for whom RED lights are something for other people... Still if its (insert deity) will infidels die, along with a true believer, thats just fine with them.
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