back to article Mr Angry pays taxman with five wheelbarrows worth of loose change

There are supposedly two certainties in life – death and taxes – and while we've never seen death by wheelbarrow, Nick Stafford from Cedar Buff, Virginia, has sorted us out on the latter. Stafford had got into a dispute with the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) and, seemingly displeased by how difficult it was to contact the …

  1. RIBrsiq
    Facepalm

    I'm pretty sure they could have just weighed them to arrive at a count with an acceptable level of accuracy.

    1. Chris Miller

      But he could have been fobbing them off with blanks (although there isn't much point, as blanks would probably cost >1¢ to make). All banks have big machines that can count coins (and reject counterfeits) at high speed.

      1. RIBrsiq
        FAIL

        Right... fakes, of course! Why didn't I think of that!!?

        Question: does the story sound to you like he couldn't afford the money? That he would risk federal money counterfeiting charges to get out of paying US$3000? Or does it sound like he wanted to "get back" at the government...?

        Mind you, all he actually achieved is inconvenience some government employees who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever imagined ill-treatment he was protesting or whatever.

        1. quxinot

          >Mind you, all he actually achieved is inconvenience some government employees who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever imagined ill-treatment he was protesting or whatever.

          And raising awareness of the problem, getting it told on news sites online, for example.

        2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

          "Mind you, all he actually achieved is inconvenience some government employees who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever imagined ill-treatment he was protesting or whatever."

          No, he got publicity as well.

          Besides, those innocents still work for the Kafkan bureaucracy, don't they?

          Brilliant move!

        3. Terje

          What I think he tried to achieve and eminently succeeded in doing was to draw attention to how hard it was to get in touch with and get the information needed to pay his taxes. By paying with five wheelbarrows worth of coins he definitely got the media exposure he would not otherwise have had.

      2. Steve I

        Just remember...

        ...this is the government we're talking about, not some efficient organisation.

      3. Alan Brown Silver badge

        "All banks have big machines that can count coins (and reject counterfeits) at high speed."

        not many tax offices do.

        And investigations have shown that UK banks routinely hand out counterfeit £1 coins, so either that filter isn't working or they choose to get rid of them rather than declare them to treasury.

    2. W4YBO

      Re: "...just weighed them..."

      Pre-1982 pennies weighed 3.11 grams. The post-1982 and subsequent copper plated zinc pennies weigh 2.5 grams.

      1. Sureo

        Re: "...just weighed them..."

        Thank god Canada did away with pennies some time ago. Weren't worth the trouble to pick one up if you dropped it.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "...just weighed them..."

        Pennies? England has Pennies (and Pounds). We have dollars and cents.

        Ob. Pedantry: The legal name of our one cent coins is "cent" and the plural is "cents". Yes, a lot of people here call our cents "pennies." You'd think in 240 years we could break that habit. (If we can't manage to break _that_ habit in 240 years, I don't have much hope about ever switching to metric despite adopting it in law in 1866.)

        The switch to copper plated zinc occurred in the middle of 1982; early 1982 cents weigh 3.11 grams, late 1982 cents weigh 2.5 grams. I forget when England switched to copper plated steel pennies (and can't be bothered to look it up.) I always thought that was brilliant because you can extract the pennies from a pile of coins with a magnet.

    3. Stevie

      Weigh the coins

      For some reason the banks in New York do not weigh coins to count them. They feed them through a rotary sorter when they have to. I always assumed the coins were so badly made the weight couldn't be guaranteed.

      According to the original BBC report (which I read yesterday) they had a counting machine but it was "overwhelmed" (and the implication was it was broken in the process).

      Interestingly, the subway booth attendants in NY could and would reject attempts to pay in large numbers of coins back in '84. Not sure how that worked, and private businesses always have the right to reject payment when the payee is buggering about like this and demand payment in a more reasonable form (or so I was told by a NY Citibank manager once).

      As for the matter of blanks, the pennies themselves cost more than 1c to make. That's why the US Government wants to get rid of them.

      1. Old Used Programmer

        Re: Weigh the coins

        I heard years ago (IANAL) that were legal limits on how much cash one had to accept, depending on denomination. With pennies, near as I recall, the limit was $5. If true, the DMV could have rejected the payment.

        1. Trigonoceps occipitalis

          Re: Weigh the coins

          There are upper limits on payments in the UK, £2 in low denominations (1p and 2p) springs to mind. No doubt Google and Wikipedia can help you find the details if you need them.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Headmaster

            Re: Weigh the coins

            There are actually federal laws requiring that you take legal tender. This way there is a universal currency and you don't get screwed over by Snidely Whiplash when you hand him $3,000 in bills to pay off the mortgage on your family farm, and he refuses it and insists that he is foreclosing since you didn't give him a check/credit card/wire transfer/whatever for the amount.

            That's why if you look at your $ bills, you will see an annotation saying that "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." Policies stating otherwise are simply businesses trying to get you to surrender a legal right that you have so that they don't have to keep and secure cash on premises.

            Notes are always legal, but I am not sure if paying a private debt in X thousands of coins constitutes a legal nuisance. The government, however, is required to take the currency they supposedly stand behind.

            1. a_yank_lurker

              Re: Weigh the coins

              Coinage is also legal tender in the states. These stories appear occasionally over here and the invariably involve either the local DMV or traffic court. Two of the most notorious government rip offs known for surly "workers", incompetence, and general arrogance.

            2. Marshalltown

              Re: Weigh the coins

              Apparently, while currency and coin are "legal tender," and in fact currency is marked "Legal tender for all debts public and private," there are no Federal laws that require private or public agencies to actually accept cash. I found that out many years ago. I used to pay my rent in cash. One day I walked in to pay the rent and a woman at the desk said, "I'm sorry, we don't accept cash." I asked her if she had ever read the fine print on a dollar bill. I also pointed out that (at the time) each check cost me 50 cents. That was six dollars a year I wanted off my rent if they were going to insist on checks. After that I wrote checks 50 cents under the rent. There was some back and forth about the issue. The property management company explained that there were only the two women staffing the office and they would be vulnerable to bad guys who wanted the cash. My response was that's fine, I understood completely, but I was simply charging them for the cost of their insisting on checks.

              1. Charles 9

                Re: Weigh the coins

                Legal Tender laws ONLY apply if there is a DEBT involved. Stores and ticket counters are allowed to refuse service, meaning no debt gets involved. Bills, OTOH, usually represent a debt UNLESS it is for services TO BE rendered (a PREpay versus POSTpay).

            3. Not That Andrew

              Re: Weigh the coins

              IIRC thats a result of the companies like 3M with their company towns & paying in scrip with was only accepted by their stores, which often wouldn't accept US currency.

          2. gnasher729 Silver badge

            Re: Weigh the coins

            In the UK, it is 20 pence in 1p and 2p coins. Beyond that, pennies are not legal tender. Pound coins are legal tender for any amount. In the USA, a company can refuse to do business with you if you come with handfuls of cents or with $100 notes, but I think they can't refuse the money for payment.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Weigh the coins

          In the U.K. the 1971 coinage act specifies the value which can be paid in any given denomination -

          Gold coins (£1, £2, £5 etc) any amount

          20p and 50p pieces not exceeding £10

          5p and 10p pieces not exceeding £5

          1p and 2p pieces up to 20p

          If you attempt to pay more than those denominations the payee can legally refuse to accept the payment. There are ways to make it awkward if you feel really passionately - like freezing the coins in a huge block of ice (use distilled water to get a transparent block of ice so the coins are visible). Provide a breakdown of the contents by each denomination and don't forget to demand a receipt

          1. Chris Evans

            Re: Weigh the coins

            "There are ways to make it awkward if you feel really passionately"

            I think few people will find the time and effort worth it! Though if you're planning on getting publicity with a view to getting something changed then I can it might work!

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Weigh the coins

            Does this apply when you're given change by machines, too?

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Weigh the coins

          I heard years ago (IANAL) that were legal limits on how much cash one had to accept, depending on denomination. With pennies, near as I recall, the limit was $5. If true, the DMV could have rejected the payment

          Don't know about the US, but I know that such a restriction is in place in the UK. Although I appreciate the prank value, the impact a coin-only payment of such a sum has makes it an entirely sensible restriction to have. I suspect this guy must have also done quite a bit of pre-ordering by several banks to obtain that many coins - banks too tend to have limited stock.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Weigh the coins

            There was a hedge fund manager after the 2008 crash who ordered $MM of copper cents, a warehouse full, waiting for demand and the price of copper to go back up so that a penny was worth more than a penny. He is still waiting

            1. gnasher729 Silver badge

              Re: Weigh the coins

              It's illegal to destoy the coins to get the copper.

              1. Alan Brown Silver badge

                Re: Weigh the coins

                "It's illegal to destroy the coins to get the copper."

                But once you have the copper, how do you prove it came from coins? alloy analysis is easily gamed by adding a copper block, etc.

                It's one of those laws that's only possible to enforce by catching someone in the act.

                1. Eddy Ito

                  Re: Weigh the coins

                  The copper ones are perfect for patching a small hole in steel when you're out of brazing rod. The newer zinc ones, not so much.

                  1. leaway2

                    Re: Weigh the coins

                    "The copper ones are perfect for patching a small hole in steel when you're out of brazing rod. The newer zinc ones, not so much".

                    I remember McGyver doing this with a car battery.

            2. ShadowDragon8685

              Re: Weigh the coins

              He's a fool to himself, then. It's a Federal crime to deface U.S. currency; that includes melting them down to recover their metal content.

              1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

                Re: Weigh the coins

                He's a fool to himself, then. It's a Federal crime to deface U.S. currency; that includes melting them down to recover their metal content.

                It's also a crime here to deface Her Maj's image. So, when we were kids and putting 2p pieces on the railway line to get them flattened we were, strictly speaking, criminals[1]..

                [1] Well, twice over since we were trespassing on British Rail property..

        4. Chris 155

          Re: Weigh the coins

          All US currency ever issued is legal tender. A payment in legal tender may be rejected, but no penalty can be attached for failure to pay(the debt doesn't precisely go away, but you can't refuse payment and then fine the guy for not paying). If you're buying something any kind of payment can be rejected but for a debt already incurred it's different.

          If this had been loose coins it would probably not have been legitimate, but since it appears he had them all in proper rolls it's a slightly different situation.

          Honestly I would suggest they mostly wanted him to go away.

          1. JetSetJim
            Headmaster

            Re: Weigh the coins

            US legal tender status here. Basically, you can use any combination of coins/notes to a govmt organisation, however private individuals/organisations are free to do as they please.

          2. chrishansenhome
            Coat

            Re: Weigh the coins

            Oh dear. According to the US Treasury, which is responsible for US currency, all notes and coins are legal tender, but individual organisations can develop policies for payment in legal tender. From their website:

            'The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

            'This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.'

            State and local governments and agencies are "organisations" under the meaning of the statute. So, while the DMV may, if it wishes, accept pennies for the settlement of a debt, it is within its rights to make a rule that coins under a certain denomination are not accepted at its offices, unless its State has passed a law mandating that it must accept coins of all denominations.

            I'll get my hat and coat,

          3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: Weigh the coins

            All US currency ever issued is legal tender.

            Sadly, not the case with UK currency - my wife found some old £10 notes and had to take them to a bank to get them exchanged for the current edition..

            I think that only the current+1 previous generation of notes are valid - older than that they either have to be exchanged by a co-operative bank (they are not legally required to) or by the BOE in Threadneedle St. They *are* legally required to. But paying the £100-odd to get to London from the rural delights of the West country to change £40 of old £10 notes didn't seem worth it.

            Fortunately, we still had a bank account with a proper bank (as opposed to a Building Society) and they exchanged them.

      2. kain preacher

        Re: Weigh the coins

        Not when there a debt. You must take a legal tend.

      3. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Weigh the coins

        "Interestingly, the subway booth attendants in NY could and would reject attempts to pay in large numbers of coins back in '84. Not sure how that worked"

        In most countries there's a legal limit to the value of small change that a merchant is obligated to accept (it's usually something like $5 or £5 or local equivalent.) Above that, accepting it is discretionary.

      4. imaginarynumber

        Re: Weigh the coins

        "Interestingly, the subway booth attendants in NY could and would reject attempts to pay in large numbers of coins back in '84. Not sure how that worked, and private businesses always have the right to reject payment when the payee is buggering about"

        Here in the Uk the ticket machines on the tube will reject your payment if you try to use more than 20(?) coins. I believe that it is a function of the escrow hopper tray being inadequately small.

    4. chivo243 Silver badge

      I already read this

      There were more than just pennies according to the story I read earlier.

      1. NotBob

        Re: I already read this

        "Legal tender for all debts, public and private"

        It's printed on the bills, but the government doesn't like people questioning the value of any of its currency. Add in that it's a government agency collecting (the DMV) and it seems unlikely that they could reasonably refuse...

    5. This post has been deleted by its author

    6. crayon

      "I'm pretty sure they could have just weighed them to arrive at a count with an acceptable level of accuracy."

      They should have been able to. I don't know about now, but Barclays used to weigh the notes that were paid in to them. If they can trust the accuracy of the weight of notes then coins shouldn't be a problem at all.

  2. Gomez Adams

    Not clear why Mr Angry could not do his business through the normal channels. Comes across as a self-entitled arrogant prick looking for someone to shout at a safe distance. Would they have given out their own home address so the authorities could send round "the management" to discuss his issues face to face? I doubt it.

    1. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

      Perhaps but, if one has a question one would expect a way to get it answered without being (effectively) told to piss off.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Yes, he's a twat still

        "Perhaps but, if one has a question one would expect a way to get it answered without being (effectively) told to piss off."

        "Stafford's dispute continued and he demanded to know the direct numbers of nine other tax offices, even though the DMV had by this point answered his original query. This was refused, and so Stafford went to court to have his case heard. He did not win the case, although he did manage to get the taxman's numbers"

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. vir

        Re: This is why he got angry.

        I'd say the original exchange was more like:

        "Thank you for calling the Cedar Bluff Department of Motor Vehicles, our hours are Monday to Friday 10:30 AM to 11:00 AM and 1:00 PM to 3:00 PM. Did you know that you can change your address or apply for an appointment online? Visit our website at www.dmv.va.gov/cedarbluff/dmv/webportal/home/home/webportal. Please listen carefully as our menu options have changed effective December 12th, 2013. For motorcycle registration, press 1; for motorcycle licensing, press 2; for motorcycle tax inquiries, press 3; for motorcycle titling, press 4; for motorcycle title transfer, press 5; for all other inquiries, please stay on the line.

        We are currently experiencing higher than anticipated call volume. Please stay on the line and your call will be answered in the order it was received. You are currently caller number 8, your estimated wait time is 45 minutes."

        52 minutes pass...

        "Thank you for calling the Cedar Bluff Department of Motor Vehicles, how can I help you?"

        "Yes, I'd like to register some vehicles I just purchased."

        "That's not our department, you'll have to call the Bureau of Revenue Collection."

      2. david 12 Silver badge

        Re: This is why he got angry.

        And then they "break open the paper rolls of the coins". That would be the rolls they come in from the bank. /Even the bank doesn't break open rolled coins to count them/. Shear bloody mindedness mascerading as Incompetance.

        1. roytrubshaw
          Coat

          Re: This is why he got angry.

          "And then they "break open the paper rolls of the coins". That would be the rolls they come in from the bank."

          I've just read his website and it seems he delivered 5whbs of "UNROLLED" coins, so the "Shear bloody mindedness mascerading as Incompetance.(several sics)" would appear to be on the part of the protagonist (well, the bloody-mindedness part anyway).

      3. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

        Re: This is why he got angry.

        My specific question was "Where do I legally register the vehicle and pay the sales tax if I own 3 houses in Russell County and 1 house in Tazewell county".

        Uhh... the one you live in?

    3. Version 1.0 Silver badge

      Re: Not clear why Mr Angry could not do his business through the normal channels.

      He's a typical Trump voter.

  3. This post has been deleted by its author

  4. Tom 38
    Headmaster

    He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

    Pennies and tuppences are only legal tender for amounts up to 20p, precisely to stop shit like this.

    Because I know you are all fascinated by this, 5p/10p are legal tender for amounts up to £5, 50p/20p are legal tender for amounts up to £10, and £1/£2/£5 are legal tender for any amount.

    I did once write my university 100 cheques each for 50p once, to pay a £50 cleaning "fine" which had unilaterally been applied to each person on my floor because they couldn't work out who trashed the kitchen. It would have cost them >50p to cash each one, so they didn't...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

      I came her to post the same thing. You can however pay a debt with a novelty 10' plywood cheque.

      1. Tim Greenwood

        Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

        Although cheques written on large plywood sheets can be perfectly legal and accepted. As I understand it, there is no obligation to actually accept them. Kind of a reverse of the coins where large quantities are not strictly legal tender but could be accepted.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

          As I understand it, there is no obligation to actually accept them.

          I think that banks are legally required to accept written instructions from their customers, the whole reason cheques were invented was to avoid the hassle of having illegible requests written on the back of a napkin, piece of bog roll, or whatever else came to hand. Even so, if you write it down & sign it I think (but IANAL) the bank has to process it.

          Makes me wonder what will happen if their plans to put an end to cheques ever happen, since they

          ll still be bound by the legal requirement to accept written instructions.

          1. TRT Silver badge

            Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

            The first act was the Bills of Exchange Act 1882. Cheques have never been legal tender and banks are not obliged to process written instructions unless it is by a means agreed in advance, that the customer has funds and that the bank is satisfied that there is no fraudulence involved. There were further measures introduced in 1985 to prevent fraud which established some of the features of cheques which would be required for them to be considered "valid instruction" for UK banks. These features have been expanded upon ever since, and there is even a non-standard paper cheque unit at the central clearing house for dealing with foreign cheques and weird-arse shit. It was around 1999 that a legal statute was passed whereby the pieces of paper didn't have to be actually hoiked all over the country in order to have their value transferred. I'm not sure how the pieces of paper felt about this.

            1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

              banks are not obliged to process written instructions

              Thanks for the clarification.

            2. Snafu1

              Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

              "I'm not sure how the pieces of paper felt about this."

              Depends upon if they were small & green , shirley?

          2. vir

            Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

            Unless you sign your name "Stephen" instead of "S. Maturin".

            1. lawndart

              Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

              "Unless you sign your name "Stephen" instead of "S. Maturin"."

              I always imagine Sir Joseph grinning from ear to ear when he writes his "apology" to the good doctor.

          3. casaloco

            Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

            "Makes me wonder what will happen if their plans to put an end to cheques ever happen, since they will still be bound by the legal requirement to accept written instructions." - Banks aren't stopping ACCEPTING cheques, they are stopping ISSUING them. Specifically many banks don't issue a check-book unless you explicitly ask for it and even then they wont give you a cheque guaranty card, so no-one will take them. Cheques are problematic for banks, since they could be cashed at any time in future. It's an unexpected debt.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

            2. Kernel

              Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

              "Cheques are problematic for banks, since they could be cashed at any time in future. It's an unexpected debt."

              Cheques are a debt for the issuer, not the banks - the bank just won't pay out on a cheque if you don't have the funds available, plus they will charge you generously in the process - it doesn't affect the banks either way.

              The other point is that there's no difference in randomness of money flow between a cheque or a bank card - either is likely to be used at random times to suit the convenience of the depositor - or at least that's how I use mine.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

              not any time in the future - banks only accept cheques dated no earlier than 6 months.

              It's not an unexpected debt - the account holder knows the money will become due and the bank will not clear the cheque if there are insufficient funds (or an overdraft).

        2. JimC

          Re: cheques written on large plywood sheets

          I have paid in a cheque to a UK bank on a wooden board, specifically the end from a box of onions (I think it was onions). My late lamented mate Steve was having some kind of disagreement with his bank, and they refused to issue him a new chequebook, even though he had funds in his account (I forget the details - it was a long time ago). So, anyway, we made as good a replica of a standard cheque as we could, except it was quadruple size and on this crate end.

          When I went to pay it in the lass behind the counter said "I can't take that" until I pointed out the card number was written on the back. So she called over a superior, who briefly glanced at the ceiling, and said fine, accept it.

          Subsequent developments were that they issued a new chequebook, and Steve got a lecture from an acquaintance at the bank who told him what a damned nuisance he was because the wooden cheque didn't fit into any of the various trays and boxes they had for handling cheques.

          RIP Steve Dyer

        3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

          Although cheques written on large plywood sheets can be perfectly legal

          And cows. I seem to remember there was a case involving a farmer to, in the days when it cost more to slaughter a cow than the cow was worth, wrote a cheque on the side of a cow.

          At which point, the cow became SEP.

      2. Arthur the cat Silver badge

        Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

        You can however pay a debt with a novelty 10' plywood cheque.

        Or, in fiction at least, a negotiable cow.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

          Every time I try to recount this tale, it ends up reading like a made up story because of all the details it requires for context, but short version is, I had to get out a loan to pay off my alcoholic mothers rent debts when I was 18 (having been trying to 'manage' them - I lived in the house so she might not have given a toss about eviction, but I bloody did - since I was 13).

          Suffice to say I had a bank manager who was sympathetic, a rent officer who was sympathetic, and the rent officers boss, who was, decidedly, not.

          The bank manager agreed to the loan based on the fact that I'd been managing her bank accounts too, to an extent (just not legally - this was a local bank, for local people!) so he knew I wasn't taking the piss, and he let me know that he had a whole stock of shitty, dirty, barely legal - but legal - £5 notes that he'd been avoiding using for cashiers as they were such a fiddle to handle. It'd be a real personal favour to him if I could help him use them up.

          So, yes, I crippled myself for a couple of years with a £2000 loan for a debt that wasn't mine, but it was worth it. The rent officers manager had used my case as an exemplar of his 'tough love' approach (IE pay the whole fucking lot now, or get evicted, regardless of context or history) and so came down to meet me and accept payment personally.

          The shit eating grin dropped rapidly when I emptied a carrier bag of 400 loose, dirty £5 notes over the counter.

          "Well, I'm pretty sure that's it. You said you wanted to count it. Off you pop. And don't forget, the girls here tell me policy is to count it twice, so do set a good example!".

          Glorious. But not as glorious as my rent officer (truly a good lad who had bent many, many a rule for me) 'accidentally' dropping a pile of folders on the counter (relating to 'our' case) and blowing pretty much every counted note off the table. Just as his boss was finishing counting for the second time.

          Oh, and the mother? She died three months later.

          She always did have a shitty sense of timing...

          The conclusion is, this is how I learned about limits on legal tender - because otherwise a wheelbarrow or five of pennies (or possibly 50ps, because shiny) would have been right up my street.

          Anon, because this is - I'm told - still local legend in that (very 'local town, for local people') council housing department even the better part of twenty years later.

      3. Allan George Dyer

        Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

        "novelty 10' plywood cheque" - I recall a news story about a cheque written on a 10' shark, by a fishmonger to the local council, IIRC.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

      I did once write my university 100 cheques each for 50p once, to pay a £50 cleaning "fine" which had unilaterally been applied to each person on my floor because they couldn't work out who trashed the kitchen.

      They probably thought having you write out the university's name, the 50p amount, signing your name then writing "NOT NEGOTIABLE" on the cheque, 100 times, was punishment enough.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: He'd be shit out of luck in the UK

        Amateur - you write out 50 cheques but for random amounts stated in terms of definite integrals.

        Then ask the university to show you where in their rules it is written that payments must be in rational numbers

  5. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Eighty bucks for a wheelbarrow?

      They were probably ex-Military Wheelbarrows. Cost $10,000 each to the taxpayer sold at a knockdown price... :)

  6. Paul Woodhouse

    the guy sounds a bit of a twunk to be honest... then again, the wheels of bureaucracy need to come up against the odd twunk now and again when they are being really annoying.

    1. usbac Silver badge

      I have to agree. My first thought was that the guy is a bit of an ass.

      However, as anyone that has been on the receiving end of any kind of bureaucracy knows, it's easy to get very worked up when dealing government dickheads. Rational thought goes out the door when trying to deal with some of these people.

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Common Sense Lobotomy

        Anyone who works for pretty well any Government Department has a lobotomy where all traces of Common Sense are surgically removed.

        This is Mandatory for any US Federal/State/County/City department. They only know how to follow the rules to the letter. They will not divert from these rules no matter how silly they are.

        Most offices provide a soft pad screwed to the wall for clients to bang their head.

        1. JimC

          Re: Common Sense Lobotomy

          Well yes, mainly because if you work for a government department and apply common sense rather than the letter of the rules sooner or later some idiot and his a******e lawyer will start a lawsuit and your neck will be on the block.

          1. Charles 9

            Re: Common Sense Lobotomy

            "Well yes, mainly because if you work for a government department and apply common sense rather than the letter of the rules sooner or later some idiot and his a******e lawyer will start a lawsuit and your neck will be on the block."

            What happens when the lawyer simply sues on the grounds of interference BY playing by the book (IOW, using the letter to defeat the spirit)? Sounds like they can get you either way.

        2. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: Common Sense Lobotomy

          "They will not divert from these rules no matter how silly they are."

          It's worse than that. Anyone within the organisation who attempts to do the right thing will be harrassed out of the job by their cow-orkers.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        It's a highly un-American activity.

        The true patriotic way of dealing with idiot bureaucracy is with an automatic weapon

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Strictly speaking what you're talking about is "Going Postal". That requires you to work for, or been recently dismissed from said eponymous entity...

    2. Stoneshop
      Facepalm

      the wheels of bureaucracy

      You mean those squarish things that slide/scrape across the floor when you try to move it?

      (and then some conslutant comes along and 'improves' those things into being triangular, so you'll encounter less bumps per rotation)

  7. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

    one wheelbarrow shall be known as 1Whb

    Pronounces "whub" I suppose? So we can measure Google profits in megawhubs, and government debt in petawhubs.

    I suppose by that reckoning my lunch cost me 10 milliwhubs. hmmm.

    1. Adam 1

      Re: one wheelbarrow shall be known as 1Whb

      Sorry Phil, a common mistake, like people confusing light-years with speed rather than distance.

      Whbs aren't a measure of wealth but rather a measure of frustration or angst.

      Usages:

      * He was so rude to me, I hope the next guy pays with 2 Whbs!

      * These #£&+ mosquitos are everywhere. Every time I get one another starts buzzing. It's like 7 Whbs.

      * Is it so hard to put your phone on silent at the theatre. May the parking ticket machine return her 400 mWhbs in change.

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: one wheelbarrow shall be known as 1Whb

      How many jubs in a Whub?

  8. Alien Doctor 1.1

    Death by wheelbarrow

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-mxowr7KE8s

    or did you mean DEATH standing in the wheelbarrow aisle at B&Q?

  9. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "5Whbs shall equal $3,000"

    You can do better than that. The obvious unit, from the article, is a mature cow. As the article states that it was actually more than a mature cow rounding has to be taken into account so it's a spherical cow.

    1. Sgt_Oddball

      They would have used an immature cow but she wouldn't stay still enough to get weighed.

      1. Adam 1
  10. hellwig

    Sub-optimal Units of Measurement

    Being from the US, I feel it my duty to enforce my own, non-scientific standard of measurement.

    I present, the "hoard": https://www.littletoncoin.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Display|10001|29555|-1||LearnNav|Famous-Hoards.html

    Examples:

    1 Carson ("CChrd"): 8,261 Carson City Silver Dollars = US$8,261

    1 Bonehoard ("BNhrd"): 300,000 Buffalo Nickels = US$15,000

    etc...

  11. W4YBO

    Actually, he did win...

    "He did not win the case, although he did manage to get the taxman's numbers."

    From the Bristol Herald Courier (Bristol, Tennessee and Virginia. Think NASCAR)

    "On Tuesday, a judge dismissed the lawsuits at the request of the state when a representative of the state’s attorney general handed Stafford a list of the requested phone numbers in the courtroom. The court also did not impose penalties on the DMV and its employees, which could have been between $500 and $2,000 per lawsuit if the employees had “willfully and knowingly” violated public records law."

    The guy lives about 60 miles north of me. I caught the tail end of a radio interview with him this morning.

    1. Tom 7

      Re: Actually, he did win...

      No - he didnt. He just cost himself some more in taxes and tighter bureaucracy.

      1. W4YBO

        Re: Actually, he did win...

        The DMV wasn't fined since the judge dismissed the case after he received the requested phone numbers. His tax liability stayed the same, and I hope that the DMV is a little more responsive when a phone number is requested. Otherwise, somebody will pay their taxes in mixed coins.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Actually, he did win...

      "Think NASCAR"

      No thanks! NASCAR is merely ice hockey on wheels; the fighting is more interesting than the actual event. If racing is entertainment, NASCAR is like the circus clowns act.

      Now BTCC, THAT's real racing! It's like a destruction derby with nicer cars. No opening for you to make a pass at the corner? No problem, just barge though and make one! These drivers can do more than just "hit the gas, and turn to the left sometimes!"

      Glad this asshole bothered to pay his taxes and not just refuse. He drove down to the DMV office on a public road, hopefully not destroying it in anger on the way. Other people get to use the roads too, and they are not all angry assholes who can't manage to follow instructions. If you see him, tell him "fuck off" from me!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Actually, he did win...

        "No thanks! NASCAR is merely ice hockey on wheels; the fighting is more interesting than the actual event. If racing is entertainment, NASCAR is like the circus clowns act."

        Then please enlighten me how NASCAR drivers negotiate Sonoma or Watkins Glen International (both road courses) with nothing but left turns. Anyway, NASCAR is looking into more road course races but has plans set for several years ahead of time due to existing commitments. There's also an issue that road courses are not as engaging for the live audience (not as big an issue for TV audiences), and like any business NASCAR has to keep paying attention to the audience: thus its focus on keeping things competitive.

  12. Herby

    Costs to government??

    The article mentions that it took 11 driods from the DMV 4 hours to count the coins. With a little math, that works out to $68/droid/hour (I'm rounding here). Being as this was "overtime", and with generous government labor contracts, and given overhead, (lights, taxes, etc.), one can easily assume that the government lost money on this transaction.

    So, opening up all the rolls of pennies (50/roll) was more than a waste of time, it was a waste of valuable taxpayer money as well. Common sense would have dictated that the DMV should have taken all these rolls down to the local bank (they most likely originated there anyway), and said "DEPOSIT PLEASE" and let the bank handle the problem.

    Sadly common sense in a government agency doesn't exist, so they did it the "hard" way. (*SIGH*).

    1. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

      Re: Costs to government??

      I think it was Mr Angry who employed assistants to spill out coins from their paper rolls into his wheelbarrows, not the government, but I may be misinterpreting.

  13. AdamT

    Legal Tender ? Debt?

    So, this may not at all be correct but, I was under the impression that "paying for stuff in a shop" is different from "settling a debt".

    When you stand at the till and they say "that'll be £11.63 please" then there are limits on what they are required to accept (which, as noted in comments above, are actually surprisingly small so often bigger shops will be more lenient) so you can't give them 1163 pennies and then shout "you're discriminating against me" or whatever if they refuse. This isn't "settling a debt" because you don't owe anything because they haven't given you the goods yet.

    But in a restaurant, for example, you are "settling a debt" because at the end of the meal they have given you the goods and so you do now owe them recompense for that. I and thought, perhaps wrongly, that there was a different set of rules about what they were required to accept in payment of that debt. i.e. that they can't refuse to accept because you want to pay a £5.10 bill with 51x10p, for example, because it is actual money of the correct amount and you are legitimately attempting to settle the debt.

    Of course all of this is covered by the general observation that life would be so much easier if everyone on both sides of these transactions just resolved to "not be a dick about things".

    Which reminds me of the time I donated several years (and Kgs) collection of coppers to the work charity collection and said "You do have one of those coin counting machines don't you?" to which the response was "Yes. But's it's broken. But that's OK because we've got an intern!".

    1. AdamT

      Re: Legal Tender ? Debt?

      Hmm, quick bit of <search-engine-of-choice>ing suggests I'm wrong. Still, I think the "don't be a dick" philosophy is still good and you can surely enjoy the funny story?

      1. TheProf
        Happy

        “BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER.”

        From: Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure

  14. John 104

    Change The Picture?

    Those are not U.S. pennies. I haven't seen a British penny, but it looks more like Canadian coin to me?

    Back on topic. I sympathize with the guy. And if I had deep enough pockets I'd probably do something similar. Good for him. We've all been there.

    As for paying. I'm not sure about coins, but I know that paper money in the U.S. is legal for ALL debts, public and private. Says so on the print. This isn't the first time I've read stories like this in The States, so I would imagine that it holds for coin as well.

    1. Blofeld's Cat
      Coat

      Re: Change The Picture?

      Quite right - they are a "A handful of euro 1 cent coins" according to the image's associated text.

      Which sounds like an unsuccessful remake of one of Sergio Leone's spaghetti westerns...

      1. Blake St. Claire

        Re: Change The Picture?

        Some of us even knew they were Euro cents without having to resort to the image text.

        And certainly I've have expected the El Reg staff to recognize Euro cents in any event, despite the fact that the UK isn't on the Euro. (And now won't ever be, and probably never was going to be anyway.)

        (I didn't know that Canada finally ditched their cent. I've been wishing for 20+ years that the US would. I wish we'd ditch the $1 note too. We've got $1 coins, but nobody will use them as long as we've got notes in circulation.)

        1. earl grey
          FAIL

          Re: Change The Picture?

          "ditch the $1 note"

          Yeah, that would work out great since that pile of notes in my wallet weigh so much more than a comparable pile of coins.

          not.....ever

  15. chivo243 Silver badge
    Angel

    I tried this

    To dispute a ticket that was clearly wrong on two counts, with only 300 pennies back in the 80's and was told that it was not acceptable, and being in the same building as the police officer holding pen, I wised up real fast, left quietly, and paid at another time with acceptable currency.

    Lesson or two here, pick your battles wisely, and don't attract attention to yourself. I'm guessing that this guy (and family) will see red, white and blue lights in his mirror much more often than before. Maybe the lucky officers will use some of those dodgy drug testing kits to run him through the system? Especially his teenaged son whom he bought a Corvette for... that's how this whole episode started

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/09/texas_man_loses_job_and_jailed_after_cops_confuse_cat_litter_for_meth/

  16. SeymourHolz

    _

    There needs to be a longer interview with this fellow.

    I'll wager this is neither the first nor funniest rage incident he's been involved in.

  17. my fingers stuck

    mr angry 2

    i once paid a disputed parking ticket with a cheque written on a paving stone. ran for weeks in local paper, eventualy council gave up... another victory for the smaller man

  18. MotherGoose

    Interestingly, wouldn't get away with "paying it that way" in the UK:

    http://www.royalmint.com/help/help/legal-tender-amounts

  19. Matt Fowler

    shops can opt out of big bank notes...

    US bills are marked with the "all debts" wording as noted up-thread, but...

    Buying something from a shop is not a debt. You don't "owe money" to the shop - the goods are purchased by agreement at the point of checkout. If there's a posted policy about not accepting £50 notes or $100 ones and it's applied in a non-discriminatory manner, you're accepting that as part of the transaction.

    But if the tax-man says you owe them $3000, that *is* a debt - and if there's no law saying "can't pay debts with stupid amounts of coinage / small bills", and the currency specifically says "all debts", then you're entirely free to wreak hilarious petty satisfaction as this gentleman did.

  20. Gerry 3

    When I wrote a British cheque in US dollars...

    Many moons ago I fulfilled a schoolboy ambition by collecting someone's car in New York and driving it to San Francisco to deliver it. One dark night I parked it at a meter in Chicago on a main road. I took great care to check the meter, which said that charges only applied from 9am to 7pm. When I ventured out at 8.50am I was astounded to see a $20 ticket stuck to the windscreen. Turned out that hidden in the undergrowth was a filthy old sign that said there was no parking between 7am and 9am. It was invisible at night, not that anyone would would be looking there; the notice on the meter should have spelt this prohibited times in big letters.

    I was delivering a mother's car to her daughter who was studying at Berkeley, so my initial idea of just tearing up the unfair ticket might have caused problems for her. The Chicago jobsworths were most unhelpful, repeating that 'a parking ticket is a parking ticket' so I thought I'd show theoretical willingness to pay by posting them a NatWest cheque made out in the sum of "$20 or £8". (Yes, it was a long time ago.)

    Imagine my surprise and disappointment when my next bank statement arrived showing a debit of £8 along with the paid cheque bearing several colourful rubber stamps (they used to return cheques in those days) !

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So what is to come of the Pogba (Pg)?

    It wasn't that long ago that another unit of currency, the Pogba was proposed.

  22. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

    Picture

    The BBC News article has a picture of the man and his barrows

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38603615

    http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/162FA/production/_93547809_bhc01122017dmvpennies01-2.jpg

  23. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Joke

    Inflation

    that would be the cow flatulence

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I actually sympathise with the guy

    Trying to contact government departments can be a nightmare.

    Having a foreign wife, I have had numerous interactions with UK Immigration , but even after 5 years, I still didnt have a phone number for them, and there isnt one published anywhere I could find.

    When I tried to contact them over a fraudulent application made in my wifes name, I spent hours trying to get someone to put me through to a relevant person - completely in vain.

    The damned letter they sent, confirming receipt of the application didnt even have a return address on it!!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I actually sympathise with the guy

      Years ago now my Czech wife (before they joined the EU) had obtained a permanent residence visa upon our marriage which was stuck into her passport. When we had children the Czech authorities simply wrote their names into her passport, as was common at the time, so they could travel with us.

      At some later point, we needed to go back to Immigration at Croydon, for a reason that escapes me now, and the woman got very agitated at seeing the children's names in the passport.

      "You can't add their names because the visa doesn't apply to them." (completely ignoring the fact that they were UK citizens anyway), she said.

      "So what do you want us to do?"

      "Get separate passports for the children."

      "The Czech Government doesn't issue passports for children under 16"

      "Well you can't have them named here."

      "Can't you just mark on the visa stamp that it only applies to the mother?"

      "No we're not able to do that."

      And so it went on like this for 20 minutes. Every suggestion we made she said she couldn't do and every suggestion she made would require us to get the Czech government to change its official policy.

      Eventually she just walked off and left us at the counter. Didn't even fetch a manager, just walked off. Utterly disgraceful.

  25. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Charles 9

      Re: Is it legal?

      There's no law preventing it; then again, there's no law forcing it, either. And since this is a live transaction, not a payment of debt, it's between the buyer and seller to determine what's acceptable and what's not.

      Legal Tender laws ONLY apply to DEBTS. And while there are no limitations in the US (most likely due to First Amendment grounds--just like burning the flag, a protest payment can be construed as speech, so any law that attempts to do this could be challenged), the UK does impose limits on what denominations you can use to pay a debt.

  26. phil dude
    WTF?

    El Reg, missed the point...

    The background for non-US (and perhaps non-Virginians), is that in Virginia they *tax* the car you ALREADY own. They called it a "personal property tax", and you pay it if your parked in the state for more than 10 days (or some other arbitrary limit), EVEN ON PRIVATE LAND.

    My buddy was happy to keep my car covered, but the State of Virginia encourages neighbours to spy on covered cars....and then fine you (@#$%#@$!)

    Paying tax when you buy something, OK got it.

    Paying tax when you use a resource, OK got it, though it is always abused.

    Paying for parking a car in a *PRIVATE* garage?

    WTF?

    P.

    1. Diginerd

      Re: El Reg, missed the point...

      Getting slightly off original topic, but steering to an IT angle...

      In Connecticut there's a similar law for cars (owned or leased - doesn't matter) - amount is payable to the city they're registered in. Don't pay, your registration gets suspended & driving it becomes a criminal matter.

      They take it further for businesses: - ANNUAL property Tax is due on all the IT Assets / Office Equipment owned (or leased from a 3rd party).

      1) Buy with cash / finance purchase with interest or lease expensive Gear & pay sales tax on it at time of purchase.

      2) Depreciate value of said gear over 5 or 7 years (Typically).

      3) Each year a % of the residual (undepreciated) amount is owed to state coffers.

      If you're leasing the gear, YOU are responsible for the Property Tax (even though you don't own it)

      Makes VAT (almost) seem reasonable.

      TL;DR If possible, avoid building DataCenters or Trading Floors here unless you can negotiate tax breaks from the State Government prior to moving in and then threaten to take your toys (and jobs) to NY/NJ unless those breaks are renewed after expiry.

      Unless you're Royal Bank of Scotland building a GLOBAL HQ in Stamford CT (UK Gov bailout stopped moving HQ, but the building went up) or UBS building what was once the worlds largest trading floor (now mostly empty) the only option is to accept ever increasing tax rates to fund the big guys sweetheart deals or GTFO and setup shop elsewhere.

    2. Charles 9

      Re: El Reg, missed the point...

      "They called it a "personal property tax", and you pay it if your parked in the state for more than 10 days (or some other arbitrary limit), EVEN ON PRIVATE LAND."

      That's because PRIVATE LAND is still COMMONWEALTH land (Virginia is legally defined a Commonwealth). Their territory, their rules. It's sort of like why you have to pay Virginia sales tax when in Virginia even when you don't live there (that's why tourtist-heavy states like Florida and Nevada rely on these instead of income taxes).

  27. knottedhandkerchief

    I can never remember what IIRC and IANAL stand for...

    1. Andytug

      They stand for....

      If I Remember Correctly and I Am Not A Lawyer

    2. Blake St. Claire

      It's too bad there isn't any way to search the internet for answers to random questions.

      1. Diginerd
        Trollface

        Teach a troll to fish*...

        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=YMMV

        *No hook here, but trolls like phish too. Caveat Emptor!

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This brought a smile to my face. #Winning, is the best revenge. >:-)

  29. Shane 4

    Impressive effort on his part!

    I thought my lot was bad,

    I had AU$3500 worth of loose change over 20+ years, Weighed 55kg.

    Too lazy to try and spend it so it just piled up.

    Was 5 trips all up to get it down there, Put it through coin counter machine, Spat out a dozen New Zealand 20c pieces, Way too similar and shops/petrol stations don't check!

    Word of advice, Make sure there is no sticky tape AT ALL left on any coins, You will jam the machine up and annoy the staff.

    Also don't be behind a mum with kids piggy bank, Guaranteed there will be a button in there that jams the machine. ;)

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    726 Kg is a bit shy of the weight of a Ford Ka at 860 Kg.

    But yeah, several wheelbarrows of the stuff.

  31. Potemkine Silver badge

    Spitting in the soup

    a middle finger to the government

    For the lucky ones living in a democracy, _we_ are the government.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Spitting in the soup

      There are NO real democracies in the world, since Aristotle noted they equate to mob rule. Furthermore, the average person is relatively uneducated, emotional, and easily persuaded. Meaning mob rule can be turned against itself by a charismatic but self-centered despot. Ring any bells?

  32. cray74

    College memories

    At the end of one semester, I diligently paid for my dorm, tuition, and other bills of the upcoming semester. I returned after a holiday break to find access to classes suspended and my dorm room in threat of being handed over to another student.

    The problem was that a minion in the Bursar's office had signed off on a paper receipt for me saying all was paid off, but typo'd in the computer system to the effect that I was $10 short. The Bursar's office was staffed with under-motivated students and had little institutional memory because of high turnover, so the only solution they could figure out was to trust the computer and not the receipt. The university was thus convinced I was in arrears and not fit to attend classes or occupy my dorm room.

    So I went across the street to my bank, got $10 in pennies, and re-paid the college. Except for a threat to make me count the rolled pennies individually, the coins were accepted, database annotated to show I was paid in full, and a Bursar-signed receipt issued. I've become a packrat of receipts and official signatures since then; they've twice saved me from making duplicate monthly payments on my rent when the apartment managers scramble their recordkeeping.

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