back to article Russia's bid for mobile self-sufficiency may be the saviour of Sailfish

The quest for freedom from US technologies and patent fees has been a persistent theme in China and has helped shape the new mobile landscape, in which Baidu and Alibaba, not Google and Amazon, dominate the user experience. Less is heard about another massive market, Russia, but here too, the push for technology self-sufficiency …

  1. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Nokia

    They should make it easy for Sailfish to be installed on their mobiles without invalidating the guarantee and donate too. Best chance Sailfish has in the west.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Market size?

    "Less is heard about another massive market, Russia..."

    It's a massive country, but with a population of less than 150 million, most of whom are very poor, I question the potential market size.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Market size?

      @AC - "[Russia's] a massive country, but with a population of less than 150 million, most of whom are very poor, I question the potential market size."

      Sorry to be blunt, but the ignorance displayed by this comment, and its up-voters needs a response.

      Russia has a population of ~146 million people, ranking it as the world's ninth most populous sovereign nation. For comparison, the U.S.A. is ranked as the world's third most populous sovereign nation, with a population of ~325 million, so about 2.2 times that of Russia, which is by no means a 'massive' deferential. However, China, with a population of ~1.38 billion, and India, with a population of ~1.3 billion, ranking them first and second respectively, make every other country look 'small'.

      With regard to poverty, the available World Bank or CIA numbers for the percentage of people living below the national poverty line, for the four countries mentioned above are:

      China: 6.1% (CIA)

      Russia: 12.7% (CIA), 11% (World Bank)

      U.S.A: 15.1% (CIA)

      India: 22% (World Bank)

      From these numbers it would seem that a relatively high level of poverty is not a barrier to mobile phone take-up.

      1. Jeffrey Nonken

        Re: Market size?

        Did you mean "differential"? "Deferential" is a behaviour.

      2. Jove Bronze badge

        Re: Market size?

        So what are the actual numbers for Russia?

  3. Norman Nescio Silver badge

    CE marked hardware

    As Jolla has changed strategy to being a provider of white label Mobile Operating Systems to hardware suppliers, it means there is little prospect of hardware running Sailfish OS becoming available in the EU. Unless a manufacturer targeting the Russian market wishes to get CE approval (and why would they?), it means that Sailfish OS fans will have to reply on grey imports, which doesn't work well.

    I very much like my Jolla phone, the underlying Sailfish OS and the user interface, and I would dearly love to be able to buy another (as my phone has a cracked screen and a bad connection to the ringtone/speakerphone speaker). Sailfish OS didn't get off the ground in India with the Intex Aquafish, as Intex have no plans to deliver more phones with Sailfish OS.

    I hope that the Russian market works for Jolla and Sailfish OS will continue, so there is still a faint possibility of being able to get a future phone running Sailfish OS in the EU, but I have to admit, that hope is very faint indeed.

    Sailfish OS is not perfect, but some of the differences between it and iOS and Android are worth having as an option (in my opinion), so I would very much like to see it succeed.

    I'm really not sure what my next phone will be. I don't really want to be beholden to either Apple or Google, which restricts things a bit. There are very minor players doing interesting things, like the Turing phone and the Puzzlephone, but nothing seems to have gained traction yet. I hope something does.

    1. Ogi

      Re: CE marked hardware

      I am happy about SailfishOS. My old n900 bit the bullet in 2014 after 5 years of loyal service, and no Android phone so far has even come close to its flexibility, functionality and hackability. All I got was fancier animated effects, and far more intrusive spying and locked in apps, that gets harder and harder to strip out.

      I am getting tired of having to fight my phone to do what I want it to do. I still believe that if a device is mine, it should listen and do what I want it to do, not some third party.

      While what you say is true, there is one thing that is looking promising. Sailfish has no problems with you trying to port the OS to other phones. They call it "Hardware adaptation kit" (https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Hardware_Adaptation_Development_Kit) which I consider a bit of a misnomer, as you are not adapting hardware to the software, but ok.

      It would be nice to build a community a bit like Cyanogen mod, and have people work on wide ranging device support. That way we don't have to rely on gray market imports (at least while we can get phones that are flashable).

      After this news, I am tempted to see if I can port Sailfish to one of my Samsungs (Either the S5 or note 4, not sure which). Both have AOSP and Cyanogen mod builds, so in theory should be able to use the kernel and binary/modem modules from that as the base for a Sailfish OS, giving actual usability as a phone.

      Likewise, I don't want either Android or Apple phones in future, especially if Google is moving away from open source Linux based Android into their own proprietary OS.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: CE marked hardware

      If you're after a replacement for your Jolla I can recommend an Intex Aqua Fish. I replaced my Jolla with one from eBay and it's been surprisingly good. It lacks flagship build quality and specs but is still really nice to use and a big step up from an original Jolla. The only thing to watch out for are the supported frequencies, depending on where you are it may or may not work well. In any case, it's so cheap that you can buy one to try and if it doesn't work or you don't like it then you haven't lost much.

    3. Marcel

      Re: CE marked hardware

      The Fairphone 2 (https://fairphone.com) is a EU-designed and CE-approved phone that runs Sailfish, although not officially supported (yet). See: https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris/Install_SailfishOS_for_fp2

  4. James 51

    Wouldn't BB10 tick all those boxes as well? They're looking to license the OS as well.

    Will be interesting to see this running on the fair phone as well.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Wouldn't BB10 tick all those boxes as well? They're looking to license the OS as well."

      The BB Android runtime works OK, but the fact that BB themselves are abandoning it for mobile phones isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. Sailfish should run Android stuff seamlessly.

      The Yotaphone was a flawed but interesting experiment, perhaps all that Russian engineering talent with insufficient outlet for its creativity will result in something novel.

      1. thegroucho
        Pint

        Ringing did you say?

        I hope it is pun well intended, Sir!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Why would BB10 be any better?

      It is made by a company headquartered in a country that's basically the United States' little brother, and a Five Eyes spying partner. The true concerns Russia has over Android and iOS would exist similarly with BB10 or Windows Phone.

  5. Julz
    Mushroom

    Balkanisation of the Internet

    What happens when state actors get involved.

    1. streaky

      Re: Balkanisation of the Internet

      What happens when *paranoid* state actors get involved. The internet was built in the first place and continues to be run by state actors. Nobody told them the hardware is far more likely to be backdoored than the software.

    2. thegroucho
      Trollface

      Re: Balkanisation of the Internet

      Erm, Russia has nothing to deal with the Balkans.

      Well, maybe except the Cyrillic alphabet, the same language group and the shared Slavic origins with some of the Balkan nations, the love of alcohol, etc.

      Except the location, as Russia is not located on the Balkans.

      And to use that term is derogatory towards the Balkan nations. You see, Russia can make the things far worse than the Balkan states can do.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Balkanisation of the Internet

        Nor "Balkanisation" refers to the Balkans only too... it describes a phenomenon which was firstly analyzed in that area and named after it, but can happen anywhere. Including the Internet.

        1. thegroucho
          Holmes

          Re: Balkanisation of the Internet

          Next time I post I must write explicitly:

          <joke>

          ...

          </joke>

          Now, go and have some caffeine ...

          1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

            Re: Balkanisation of the Internet

            Pro tip: make the joke funny.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

            2. thegroucho

              Re: Balkanisation of the Internet

              Speaking of pro tip:

              Didn't know Jim Davidson was on this forum giving free advice on stand-up comedy ...

  6. caffeine addict
    FAIL

    Off topic

    That cover photo is everything I hate about HDR photography...

  7. Tikimon
    Thumb Up

    Good on ya, mates

    If Satan himself offered me a phone with the Hell.OS on it, I would take it and buy him a beer. Anything to spare me from Cthulhu's, sorry, Google's grasping tentacles and Apple's walled-garden of shiny over function. I'm frankly less worried about Russians spying on my phone than I am the NSA and Google.

    My personal biases aside, it can only do the world good to create some real competition in the mobile market. Apple and Google have pushed all manner of BS on us knowing we have little other choice.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good on ya, mates

      That's what you say because you likely were not born in an ex-communist country (yours truly was, and was reasonably old enough when the iron curtain fell to remember what it was like).

      While I have no love lost for Google, Apple, NSA and the likes, they are amateurs when it comes to infringements of civil liberties compared to Russian agencies.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fruits of the US' illegal wiretapping program

    If it weren't for that, Russia probably wouldn't be so skeptical of products created by Google and Apple, and might be less willing to make the investment into rolling their own mobile OS. Maybe China would have always gone their own way with their various Google-free Android forks, but it certainly can be argued that US tech companies are losing big in the long run by being seen to cooperate with the US.

    It was one thing when it was suspected / rumored, quite another to see it on a powerpoint with dates they gave in attached.

  9. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Happy

    Interesting

    I suspect a few ivory towers are beginning to look a little unstable now.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Interesting

      HAHA! Perhaps the visiting techies won't get shot down by Russian rockets? Good luck, idiots! I'm not taking that flight. Also, what towers are you referring to? Google, Apple? I hardly think they are shaking in their boots after hearing this news. The Russians are pretty good at breaking and destroying things and people. Let's see what they can do with their own smartphone and an OS from a country that can actually innovate, not steal from the west and pretend they thought of it originally, China. From space technology to everyday computer technology, China just takes from others and tells their slaves, er, citizens how super wonderful they all are! Rejoice!

      Seriously, when was the last time you said; "holy shit, I got to get one of those awesome Russian cars, or computers, or DVD players, or toasters?" Let me guess... never. They have a hill to climb, and nobody cares but them. Good luck with that.

      Wake me up with Russia or China has an original thought about something other than hacking the west for fun and profit? Meanwhile, I'm sticking with the iPhone. At least Apple takes security seriously, and I know first hand they are not in bed with the NSA or FBI or CIA. YMMV.

      sleep_mode(on);

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Interesting

        "Seriously, when was the last time you said; "holy shit, I got to get one of those awesome Russian cars, or computers, or DVD players, or toasters?" Let me guess... never. They have a hill to climb, and nobody cares but them. Good luck with that."

        Remind me again, how have NASA been getting to the ISS these last many years?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Interesting

          "Remind me again, how have NASA been getting to the ISS these last many years?"

          Technically Russia has always been good at the state-level stuff (as in military, metallurgy, rockets, ships and railways) and terrible at consumer stuff. Before Communism there wasn't a consumer market in Russia, and that just continued.

          But China is proving different. It's Chinese companies that are experimenting with dual cameras on phones, loudspeakers using the glass as the vibrating element, ultrasonic face sensors, tiny personal mobility devices and many electric bike drives. They have the enormous advantage of a vast home market that they can experiment with before trying the outside world.

          Russian hardened OS on a Chinese made phone, could be interesting (and very unpopular in certain Western TLAs.)

        2. thegroucho
          Mushroom

          Re: Interesting

          To be fair - the Russian space program is good, but let us not forget all the German technology snaffled by both countries after WWII - USSR and USA.

          Possibly USSR managed to get more of the technical documents and rocket parts - since Peenemünde was on the Eastern side of Germany. Not to mention all the interned (read slave labour) German scientists who faced the same prospects as some of the wayward USSR scientists would receive - GULAG, relocation to Siberia, execution, etc. Makes people work twice as hard. Doubt von Braun was going to be shot if a particular rocket launch went wrong in USA.

          Also - in the 60s, 70s and even likely the 80s and 90s they intentionally kept news at bay in case a rocket failed to get the payload in place before drumming about another successful launch.

          P.S. The icon represents a failed launch.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Interesting

            "German scientists who faced the same prospects as some of the wayward USSR scientists would receive - GULAG, relocation to Siberia, execution, etc. Makes people work twice as hard."

            John Clark in Ignition! mentions the German scientist in Russia who tried to do some research on an extremely dangerous propellant. He was hauled before a People's Court on the equivalent of an H&SE charge, and was fined. Clark remarks that he felt the guy got off very lightly.

            Also worth mentioning that Sergei Korolëv was sent to prison for six years for embezzling State funds for his amateur rocket experiments, and ended up the Chief Designer. Scientists and engineers who stuck to science and engineering didn't have much to worry about.

      2. Sgt_Oddball

        Re: Interesting

        My binoculars still work great (proudly stamped 'Made in East Germany').... same goes for the two Patrika 35mm cameras I've got kicking around (made '81 and '83 respectively).

        But those are East German products I suppose.

        My uncle did love his Niva until the gearbox fell out. So thats something.

        And suddenly I've realised why the MOD said no when I applied for the RAF.......

  10. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

    Sailfish does not run Android apps

    Sailfish runs Sailfish apps, which currently doesn't include a payable app store.

    Jolla phones run Sailfish with an Android runtime.

    There are various Sailfish ports to non Jolla phones. They don't run Android apps, and there is no option to pay for an Android runtime. Even the Jolla phone doesn't include Google play services, which rules out a number of apps.

    It'd be lovely to have another mobile os, but without the app support it's dead. I can't say I'm a huge fan of many of the ways apps work on Android, but at least they enable keeping in touch with friends using common apps.

    Whatsapp? Nope. Kik? Nope. Snapchat? Nope. Google Hangouts? yes, except no video calls, and no-one uses it. Instagram? barely - no upload facility.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sailfish does not run Android apps

      Not having paid apps in their app store is a big problem, especially after they have had a few years to work on it and it might provide them with some desperately needed cash flow.

      Google play services is only included on the Intex Aqua Fish, but it is easy to install on any Jolla device if you want. Once you've done this then android apps work just as well as on anything else running Android 4.4.4.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As a Russian citizen, who would you prefer eavesdropping on your mobile, the russian government with it's record on human rights and "unexpected fatalities" amongst its critics or Google who'll use it to fling some adverts your way?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "As a Russian citizen, who would you prefer eavesdropping on your mobile, the russian government with it's record on human rights and "unexpected fatalities" amongst its critics or Google who'll use it to fling some adverts your way?"

      I think you've missed a point here. At some point the Russian government is probably going to block Google, Facebook etc. just like the Chinese do. On the other hand the average Russian - not the small minority with significant assets and ready access to the West - probably cares about as much about human rights in the abstract as do the Trump supporters in the US, and worries about the police and the security services just as much as those Trump supporters worry about theirs. Having a working mobile phone is likely to trump any security concerns.

      It's always a mistake to assume that people in foreign countries see their governments the same way we do. It's that mistake that causes a lot of wrong foreign policy decisions.

  12. Anonymous South African Coward Bronze badge

    Will you be able to kick Android off your existing devices and install Jolla/Sailfish instead?

    Oh scratch that, somebody posted regarding that. If they can sort out android compatibility, then they'll have a winner - but it'll be like OS/2 all over again - dearth of Sailfish apps.

    Meh, got excited too quickly. Buggrit millenium hand and shrimp.

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