The Model 3
Was never going to be included for free charging anyway. That was made known up front when it was announced. Only the Model S and Model X were down for "free" charging (the cost had been factored in to the list price).
Tesla has abandoned its practice of offering free electricity at its Supercharger facilities, the 'leccy car charging network it has built to enable long-distance journeys. The company will now offer new buyers credits for 400 kWh of electricity, which translat3s to about 1,600km (1,000 miles) of driving each year, or about …
"Better to have a Lead Acid battery system for your PV panels"
How so? They hate deep discharge cycles so for any kind of longevity you have to install twice the capacity you actually need. They weigh an absolute ton and I've certainly seen lead-acid arrays explode in the past. How much strength do I need to add to my utility room floor to take the weight of a giant lead acid array?
Or use Lithium-Iron (note the R!), aka LiFePO4: It's like the Lithium-Cobalt-ion chemistry used in mobile phones (and Tesla's products), but it has the disadvantage of being slightly less energy-dense and quite a bit more expensive (although much of that is due to manufacturing economies-of-scale in favour of LiCo). In exchange for that, you get a far longer lifetime, higher current delivery, dimensional stablity, much greater resistance to mechanical mishandling, and, somewhat importantly for use in a dwelling: a battery that can't spontaneously combust even if it's hit by something heavy.
Currently, it's targeted for the applications currently using Lead-acid packs, but I think it has a good future as a home storage system,
It does get me, the fuss had over electric cars as if they're something new, when I grew up in the 80's being woken by the sound of jingling bottles and an electric whine. And they were far from new even then.
Hint: If you have to subsidise free electricity for your users, and set up hundreds of roadside charging systems, and get them to install charging systems at home, and sell them replacement batteries, etc. maybe this tech isn't as profitable or renewable as anything since the 1960's milk floats first woke up spotty teenagers...
>> "Better to have a Lead Acid battery system for your PV panels"
> How so?
Recycling... Lead Acid Batteries have been recycled quite easily for decades.
You buy batteries, you return them back to the same place you buy them.
They chunk 'em, float 'em, skim 'em, and make new batteries.
Newer batteries are constantly being invented and I am not convinced that the poisonous components are truly being completely recycled on a global basis. I wonder if they are just poisoning our land & water.
"Newer batteries are constantly being invented and I am not convinced that the poisonous components are truly being completely recycled on a global basis. "
The material in the latest promising LI technology is "olivine" - if you haven't heard of it that won't be surprising unless you're a geologist, but it's one of the most common minerals on the planet and comprises about 1/3 of what comes out of the average volcano.
" They weigh an absolute ton and I've certainly seen lead-acid arrays explode in the past."
No need for an explosion. All you need is an out of control charging circuit boiling the things.
Suphuric acid fumes turn most PVC black. Have you ever tried to tell the black wire apart from the black wire (which was red when you installed it) from the black wire (yellow) from the black wire (green) ?
Not to mention what happens to any exposed metals in such an event.
"*never piss on an electric fence - lesson learned at 8 years old."
Actually, just stand further than 18 or so inches away. Unless you've got a really special pee-pee, what looks like a solid stream is actually individual droplets (laminar vs. turbulent flow). Now, the trick is to get your buddy to stand a little bit closer.
Indeed that's the plan. Tesla sees it's acquisition of SolarCity as highly complementary, and not just to the Musk/Rive families. The synergistic combination of car, PowerWall, and panels creates the perfect ecosystem for the Tesla Owner's Solar Home. Simply take your Model S (90kWh), your Powerwall2 (13.5kWh) and your solar tiles (unspecified) and you're free to motor!
In addition, Tesla owners can contribute to reducing traffic congestion in the process, ie 400kWh/1,000 miles means you'll get an extra 5.5 miles from your own storage and charging system! If you need more, our sales people will be only too happy to quote for additional Powerwall2 units. And if you need extra space for more units, or more solar tiles, why not contact Tesla Realty to discuss purchase of a larger home?
In the USA, maintenance of the Federal interstate highway system is paid for by a tax on gasoline (about 18c per gallon). States add an average of 30c/gallon on top of this, with varying percentages of that going towards road infrastructure. A pittance by European standards, but still a significant portion of the cost of fuel.
Once electric cars become popular, they'll stop being given a free pass on the taxes. Probably in terms of some kind of weight-tax, because it's very hard to tax electricity used for cars differently to electricity used for domestic heat/light/cooking.
In Europe, there's plenty of ways already to tax electric cars (road tax, registration taxes, etc), but they're just disabled for now.
"In the USA, maintenance of the Federal interstate highway system is paid for by a tax on gasoline (about 18c per gallon). States add an average of 30c/gallon on top of this, with varying percentages of that going towards road infrastructure."
Road infrastructure may be used by cars (and mostly paid for by car drivers) but the _vast_ majority of damage done to them (requiring repair) is done by HGVs.
A 8 ton rigid body vehicle (ie: An average 40 seater bus) does a LOT more damage than 40 cars.
The damage done by a vehicle is more or less proportional to the 5th power of axle weight multiplied by the square of velocity. It's one of the reasons that HGVs are speed restricted and banned from light duty roads.
Oh yes - so much for the promise of free power when travelling long distance. Now, key question: does this apply to new cars or all cars? If it applies to all cars, we're facing selling on the basis of misleading advertising - which is legally actionable..
Well, back to my original plans then. Tesla is will remain only a choice for the countries where I mainly drive in the city.
This post has been deleted by its author
@AC above,
As the previous poster has mentioned, this was clearly covered in the article.
So you are clearly an idiot. Why did you feel the need to post without researching the facts presented RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU first? Are you just a lazy bastard? Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
I feel we have a right to know. Idiot, lazy, or retarded?
I feel we have a right to know.
You can feel all you want, but that doesn't create an obligation on my part.
But I'm feeling charitabel
Idiot, lazy, or retarded?
Neither. I PBC*-ed, always a mistake. On the plus side, it shows I'm a human.
* Posting Before Coffee.
But I'm feeling charitabel
~ble, of course. That's the pain with auto-correct: by the time you have killed it off you're used to it, which is why everyone keeps typing 'teh" instead of retraining that muscle memory for "the". Oh well.
I never understood it to be a guaranteed free for all(time). Having run one in the UK for the last 14 months, and with the advantage of having to be in Edinburgh, Manchester or Bristol at some point in almost all of my longish drives (I slum it on a bicycle for everything local - feels smug :-) it has acted as a mild subsidy to a frankly ludicrous price over 70,000 miles or so. Never bothered with the fast charger at home though.
So, what is the replacement battery cost? Bearing in mind there are very few other expensive parts that wear out in electric cars (compared with ICU cars with engine, gearbox etc), if replacing the battery pack is expensive, it might still be a worthwhile expense to get a car that lasts another ten years.
A quick google doesn't give exact figures - the Tesla replacement program says $12k for a battery pack, but outside of that some people claim $45k (2014 prices). I would expect that to half by the time the gigafactory comes on line. So $20-$25K get a Tesla S back on the road with another 10 years of driving. Almost complete guesswork on the figures though.
That's pretty good for that sort of car. The market will clearly define the pricing.
Suspension components (Bushings, shocks, springs), drivetrain components (bearings, gears, driveshafts, homokinetic couplings, etc), motor controllers (Which can and do break sometimes), aircon units, heater units, head/taillight assemblies (Since LEDs don't last forever but can't be replaced individually these will have to be replaced at some point), onboard computer systems, charge controllers, brake components, and probably a lot of other stuff I'm missing.
Don't assume electric vehicles have no wear components, because they do. Lots of them. Basically anything that is also inside a petrol car, except for the IC engine itself and some piping. And IC engines are not very often the source of problems on used cars. It's mostly all the other stuff that breaks.
Also, given how shodilly the average Tesla I've encountered is put together there is no way in hell I'll ever buy one first hand, let alone second hand. New batterypack or no.
I have a Ford hybrid with a much smaller battery pack.
Dealer price for the replacement is $3000 but the scrap yards are full of batteries for $700-800
all from cars with front end damage.
Most internal combustion cars in scrap yards aren't there because they wore out after 200,000mi - no reason to think things are different for electrics
None of the items quoted by iamanidiot are particularly expensive to replace (I've done all except aircon and electric specific stuff on my car, currently on 252k miles), and none are particular prone to wearing out in a <100k timescale.
With regard to quality of manufacture, that may be true, but is something that generally gets better over time. Especially with new manufacturers.
"Don't assume electric vehicles have no wear components, because they do. Lots of them."
And EVs are _heavy_. I noticed this when testing a Leaf. Took it to my local mechanical wizard and we stuck it on a lifter - the body is based on one of Nissan's lighter vehicles and the suspension hasn't been beefed up much to cope with the extra 300kg of mass.
This post has been deleted by its author
400 kWh times (say) $0.15 each = $60.00
"free potato" is how my wife would describe such stinginess.
My used ("CPO") car came with a full tank, $80 worth of gas.
To be fair, if the Tesla can squeeze "1600 km" out of $60, that's about one-half the cost per km.
But, while a Tesla might be better in the quarter mile, my car can cover 1600km faster than the Tesla.
My problem with electric cars is simple. It takes 30 minutes at these superchargers to travel 170 miles. Whereas, my gasoline engine takes 5 minutes to travel 400 miles. Electric cars will take off only when you can drive several hundred miles after a 5 minute recharge.
The idea behind superchargers is that if you are doing long distance travel you will not be traveling all that distance in a single go, and you take breaks anyway for "personal relief", meals and rest. So if you can do those stops at a supercharger then your vehicle is recharged by the time you finish a break. This ofcourse ignores tagteaming and just switching drivers after a short 10 minute break for necessities.
AC noted "How after do you travel more than 170 miles in a day?".
The oft repeated suggestion that "You can 'just' rent a car for those longer trips." ignores the fact that such an approach could cost enough money to eat back most of the supposed savings. Not to mention that affordable rental cars are often horrific.
Why can't we have a trailer with a generator for those days when we need more range?
"My problem with electric cars is simple. It takes 30 minutes at these superchargers to travel 170 miles"
You should be taking at least a 30 minute break after three hours of driving for your own safety and that of your fellow road users. Concentration and reaction are all affected badly by driving too long without a break.
What you're saying, in effect, is that this is an extra Tesla safety feature.
TB suggested 30 minutes break every three hours.
Puh!
Not compatible with covering ~1500km in one day, ~12 hours. Easiest thing on Earth. Not even really 'speeding' beyond police tolerance, mostly. Including a nice lunch and several fuel stops.
No time for dawdling.
My problem with electric cars is simple. It takes 30 minutes at these superchargers to travel 170 miles. Whereas, my gasoline engine takes 5 minutes to travel 400 miles. Electric cars will take off only when you can drive several hundred miles after a 5 minute recharge.
That is actually less of an issue if you drive alone and do this a bit responsibly - you need to take breaks anyway, and there isn't that much of a difference between 5 min refuelling and then have a break whilst refuelling yourself to, or hooking it up, doing the same and disconnecting it on departure.
My issue is more about resilience. If you have ever driven in a foreign country you know that keeping the machine above the half tank mark is important to ensure that whatever happens, you have enough power for heat and motion. In a standard car, I can improve that status by lobbing a few extra canisters of fuel in the back, and at a pinch I can even *walk* and get fuel or get refuelled at a stonkingly high cost by the local equivalent of the AA or RAC. Petrol stations are well distributed.
In a Tesla, I am 100% dependent on a less dense network of facilities that takes longer to replenish energy, and that is also 100% non-portable. I can't really see the AAs of this work lug around a honking large battery to jumpstart an e-car - that will always become a towing job.
That is no real issue in a city, but it is on the distances and the countries that I drive in, so although I admire the achievement, I don't think a Tesla is for me other than as a city car.
Using batteries recharged directly by electricity may be just a stopgap. Electric cars would really take off if/when they use flow batteries. There's some promising research that may eliminate the energy density issue for them that would make flow batteries several times denser on a volume basis than lithium ion, and only a few times less dense than gasoline.
Being able to "recharge" by filling up your tank with charged electrolyte (while also pumping out used electrolyte for recharging at the station) would solve the main issue with electric cars, the inability to travel very far in a day without lengthy delays for charging. It would also minimize the infrastructure problem for service stations, since they could recharge the electrolyte on a 24x7 basis - as well as help buffer supply/demand issues on the grid.
Agreed. Every time a Tesla story comes up, someone feels the need (there is a post just above) to complain that they take too long to charge at a service station and they won't be happy until they can do 400miles on a 5 minute charge.
Well, to all those people, WE FUCKING KNOW THAT. You've told us a million times. And you know what? A lot of people don't give a shit, because their majority use case isn't impacted. They charge at home. They don't do long journeys, or they are fine with a 30 minute stop every now and again.
So, to all those commentators. Please STFU. Everyone knows the advantages and disadvantages of electric cars, and yet Tesla and others are still selling by the hat load. Just because YOU don;t have the need for one, doesn't mean others don't either. I would buy a Model 3 tomorrow if they were on sale because it fits my use case exactly.
And don't get me started on the people who whinge that Tesla get too many government subsidies. Try checking what subsidies all the other manufacturers get first.
The use case changes with the new model.
The model S sold to people who already have 2 cars. If they need a long trip for the holidays they take the Range Rover, if they need to take stuff to the dump they call somebody.
The model 3 replaces a hatchback for people with only 1 car - it needs to be able to do the annual holiday trip to grandparents
"The model 3 replaces a hatchback for people with only 1 car - it needs to be able to do the annual holiday trip to grandparents"
How so? My car meets 95% of my needs and for the times it doesn't I hire one. It's cheaper than owning something more expensive and impractical for only 5% of the time.
"The model 3 replaces a hatchback for people with only 1 car - it needs to be able to do the annual holiday trip to grandparents"
My parents/childrens grandparents live closer than work, and work is still close enough for an electric car. So, yes, it would be fine. Even for visiting other relatives, we already use the wife's car anyway...many families are two car nowadays. I would love an electric for commuting to and from work, would save a fortune. Just cannot do the upfront cost right now. Waiting for the Model 3 or some sort of similar car from someone else.
Teslas have inadequate range and take too long to charge. They're also 'American' cars, with all that implies. Replacement battery packs are rather dear, perhaps that's improving. Cradle to grave footprint is a bit Green-dubious. Subsidies, yeah. The aura emitted from a Tesla (i.e. whiff of plonk) is more or less the exact opposite of what the owners may believe. Musk is generally nice, but a bit shady once in a while (salesman). He's useful to humanity, but better when filtered with healthy skepticism.
Travelling down M74, M6 etc. I don't think I've ever seen more than half a dozen supercharger points at once.
If a charge takes half an hour that is fine, but what if everybody has an electric and there are no spaces available? Some form of queuing or valet system? Your 30 minutes charge might then turn into an hour or more, whereas with diesel/petrol you'll never take more than 5 minutes and you are on the road again.