back to article UK minister promises science budget won't be messed with after Brexit

Universities and science minister Jo Johnson has promised that the UK government will not "dip into the ringfence" of the allocated science budget to underwrite EU funding following Blighty's departure from the European Union. Prime Minister Theresa May has announced that the UK will formally begin the Brexit negotiation …

  1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken
    1. J. R. Hartley

      Lying tory bastard

      1. TVU Silver badge

        "Lying tory bastard"

        I do not trust the other Johnson brother one bit because so far he's only shown any interest in hiking up tuition fees and not in defending British science in the way that Cable and Willetts did.

        Spending on science in the UK is less than that France and Germany and the priorities ought to be increasing the amount spent on British science and securing Associated Country status with the EU for science purposes so that science cooperation can continue but that particular clueless Eton & Bullingdon toff just doesn't care.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Spending on science in the UK is less than that France and Germany

          But more than the other 25 countries, you're cherry-picking your data very carefully.

    2. veti Silver badge

      So what's your answer then? Keep having referendums until one gets the right result?

      I guess if it's good enough for Scotland...

      1. Pen-y-gors

        ref2?

        "Keep having referendums until one gets the right result?"

        Well, duh, obviously! That's the proper democratic way. Ideally we should have a keep-the-nasty-foreigners-out referendum every six months, and negotiations stop and start depending on the latest result. That way the politicians can tell their lies, everyone can say that things were better when we had blue passports, but we'll never get round to actually changing anything, which is what this whole insane exercise is all about.

      2. Merchman
        Facepalm

        The referendum was a non-binding, advisory vote. As we live in a representative democracy, MPs are fully entitled to reject leaving the EU if it would be massively damaging to the economy and people of this country (as it is looking more and more likely).

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          MPs are fully entitled to reject leaving the EU if it would be massively damaging to the economy and people of this country

          If they did, it would be massively damaging to the MPs, given that close on 70% of English regions voted to leave. MPs who vote to ignore that will discover what it's like to get a middle-english toe up their collective arses. UKIP would be laughing themselves silly all the way to Westminster. Not a good outcome.

          Besides, changing our mind now would be the most catastrophic outcome of all. It would send a message to the EU that we weren't serious about our concerns, and could be relied upon to drop our pants and bend over when pushed. It would be the end of the rebates, the opt-outs, and any pretence of control over anything.

          1. Yesnomaybe

            As the UK will have to pay to get access to the EU market after "Brexit", the rebate will be gone. The UK will have to pay the full whack then. So no money saved at all, in fact it will incur a considerable extra cost.

            1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              As the UK will have to pay to get access to the EU market after "Brexit",

              If you reread my post you'll see I was discussing what would happen if MP voted to renege on Brexit and we therefore stayed in. We would lose all opt-outs & rebates in that situation.

          2. TVU Silver badge

            "If they did, it would be massively damaging to the MPs, given that close on 70% of English regions voted to leave. MPs who vote to ignore that will discover what it's like to get a middle-english toe up their collective arses. UKIP would be laughing themselves silly all the way to Westminster. Not a good outcome.

            Besides, changing our mind now would be the most catastrophic outcome of all. It would send a message to the EU that we weren't serious about our concerns, and could be relied upon to drop our pants and bend over when pushed. It would be the end of the rebates, the opt-outs, and any pretence of control over anything."

            I frankly don't care what the Leave voters think or want because their marginal win was based on a complete pack of lies, the most egregious of which was that all EU funds would now go to the NHS. Leave voters should not be allowed to inflict hundreds of billion of pounds of damage on the British economy.

            I would fully support any MPs who stand up to the May government to secure European Economic Area and EU Customs Union status for the UK which is not the same as rejoining the EU (it's a much less destructive soft Brexit).

            1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              I frankly don't care what the Leave voters think or want because their marginal win was based on a complete pack of lies, the most egregious of which was that all EU funds would now go to the NHS.

              Are you really that arrogant, and that daft? You don't care what the majority voted for, so you're happy to see it ignored? You're name isn't Putin is it? Or Trump?

              Leave got a substantially higher percentage of the vote (on any grounds) than any party has managed in a general election in at least 50 years.

              As to the bollocks about immigration and the NHS, that's just FUD from remoaners to justify their inability to understand the economic and political reasons why the EU is an unworkable disaster. Sure, a few people probably voted for Brexit on immigration grounds, but I certainly don't believe it was the main reason.

              That said, a softer exit with EEA status would indeed be beneficial, but it seems unlikely that the EU will permit it, since it risks bringing their worst nightmare to life: that a country can leave the EU and be better off outside it. They will do everything in their power, underhand or illegal, to try and prevent that.

  2. Schultz
    Boffin

    Not sure if that is a big comitment

    So they'll ringfence the UK science budget. But scientists may still loose a lot of EU funding. Will they add former contributions to the EU science budget to future the UK science budget? Or maybe they hope to continue participating in the EU science programs (like Switzerland), but that might cost some extra money in the future: "From 2007 to 2013, the UK contributed an estimated €5.4 billion to EU research and development, according to the UK Office of National Statistics. During that time period, it received €8.8 billion in direct EU funding for research, development, and innovation".

  3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    Channel 4 news reported £5.5Bn --> EU got £8.8Bn <-- EU for Science

    Over the same period.

    So that's a fair bit of cash for HMG to find.

    1. Qwertilot

      Re: Channel 4 news reported £5.5Bn --> EU got £8.8Bn <-- EU for Science

      Its actually a bit harder than 'just' the ~£3 Billion too, because all of that European funding was in big(gish) projects with lots of people collaborating across Europe.

      Very different from the sort of stuff we can really hope to fund using just UK funds.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Channel 4 news reported £5.5Bn --> EU got £8.8Bn <-- EU for Science

        Not at all, the government will fully fund UK science and allow them to build their own version of Eu projects - just with 1/28th money and people.

        The Little Hadron Collider, with it's thatched roof and magnets collected from fridges by the nation's children will be assembled in Britain and will collide British Hadrons at a sensible speed.

  4. Paul Shirley

    politicians lies

    When a politician 'promises' or offers to 'work hard to' you know they're either lying or not in a position to make the offer. And aren't ring fences just fences with big enough holes to extract money through to most of them?

    1. veti Silver badge

      Re: politicians lies

      Err... no, that's not fair.

      They're promising to work hard for something. They may or may not keep that promise. But they are also warning you, up front, that the result is not guaranteed, usually because they're not in a position to guarantee it.

      If you read that as a promise to guarantee the outcome, then that's on you.

      1. You aint sin me, roit
        Unhappy

        Re: politicians lies

        Actually, they are promising that "hard-working families" will have to do the work. Politicians will merely oversee the work - looking on with incredulity and a lack of understanding...

        Jo Johnson, First in Modern History, in charge of UK science.

  5. Stevie

    Bah!

    They don't need to "dip in" to any funds. There's 350 million quid a week that will accrue from just not being in the EC up for grabs.

    It's like no-one even read the poster on that bus.

    1. BebopWeBop
      Joke

      Re: Bah!

      Nahh that is earmarked for the NHS!

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Bah!

        I thought we were getting a fleet of buses - that's what I vote for !

      2. Yesnomaybe

        Re: Bah!

        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-vote-leave-wipes-nhs-350m-claim-and-rest-of-its-website-after-eu-referendum-a7105546.html

    2. Merchman

      Re: Bah!

      Boris owes about £6bn+. I think he might want to start looking down the back of the sofa.

      http://www.whatdoesborisowe.co.uk/

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    >Back in July, the minister announced he had set up a public inquiry to investigate cases of discrimination against UK scientists during the aftermath of the Brexit vote.

    Hooray. Another public enquiry. More well-paid jobs for the boys paid for by the increasingly cash-strapped tax payer.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Perhaps they need to fund some grants to develop the new magical money tree from which they're going to be plucking all these billions of pounds they are suddenly pledging left-, right- and centre.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      This really isn't hard to understand. We contribute something like £18 billion to the EU, and it spends about £9 billion on stuff here. So there's plenty of money.

      I'd suggest we stay in the EU science programs, if they want us. That should be an easy agreement, if negotiations don't go wrong. If not, then we repatriate a bunch of EU budget, and add it to the research budget. It's not like UK academia doesn't already do loads of joint research with non EU countries.

      The immigration argument is even sillier. Our universities are funded by fee-paying foreign students, it would be insane to stop that flow, although there is a lot of abuse apparently with pretend institutions getting visas for pretend students, and I'm sure the Home Office will manage to stop some real students in cleaning up that mess.

      It's a bit like the argument that because people are worried about low skill immigration well automatically choose not to allow any more doctors or nurses to move here. A pure scare-story.

      There are serious issues to worry about with Brexit. This one should be dead easy.

      1. batfastad

        > we repatriate a bunch of EU budget

        LOL! Repatriate to the nearest wall in the form of a warm yellowy liquid.

        I've been in the Remain Hard camp for a long time because I do not think UK politicians and civil servants can be trusted with anything more than a box full of paperclips. Actually treasury tags are probably safer. Any actual money, budgeting or policy decisions on anything further ahead than the next election should not go anywhere near Westminster. Remove all sovereignty whatsoever from UK.gov.plc.ltd.uk immediately and give it to the Walloons.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          @ batfastad

          "I've been in the Remain Hard camp for a long time because I do not think UK politicians and civil servants can be trusted with anything more than a box full of paperclips."

          You do know Blair was aiming for EU president. That guy who borked the economy by not understanding anything about running a country but looked like he should be in a boy band, lied every time he smiled (or breathed) and spaffed money on any problem in the hope it would go away. And in the EU there is even less we could do about getting rid of him and 'no more boom and bust' brown.

          "Any actual money, budgeting or policy decisions on anything further ahead than the next election should not go anywhere near Westminster."

          You sound like you want to join the Euro. There aint many still advocating such economic suicide. Has the Euro recovered from the recession 6 years ago yet? And as remainers like to point out, we are tied in trade to this economic basket case that is more threatening to the global economy than China crashing. Forget jumping out of the pan into the fire, that would be applying the ethanol and some seasoning.

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: @ batfastad

            You do know Blair was aiming for EU president.

            Sounds about right for him: aiming for a position that doesn't exist…

            1. codejunky Silver badge
              Facepalm

              Re: @ batfastad

              @ Charlie Clark

              "Sounds about right for him: aiming for a position that doesn't exist…"

              Interesting. Good job these are all elected by the people- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Union

              1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
                Facepalm

                Re: @ batfastad

                Good job these are all elected by the people

                What, just like the Prime Minister isn't?

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @ batfastad

                  @ Charlie Clark

                  "What, just like the Prime Minister isn't?"

                  You might have missed it over there in Germany but the tory party was elected. In this country we elect parties. Just as Blair walking out passing the post to Brown instead of triggering an election. We dont do president/vice president here.

                  1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                    Re: @ batfastad

                    In this country we elect parties.

                    We don't actually, we elect MPs. Until Tony Blair changed it, the party affiliation wasn't even on the ballot paper.

                  2. Charlie Clark Silver badge
                    Holmes

                    Re: @ batfastad

                    We dont do president/vice president here.

                    So, if you accept the principle of representative democracy for the UK, how come you don't think it applies for things like the European Commission?

                    Come to that, how come you think it doesn't apply for international treaties such as the membership of the European Union, the World Trade Organisation, the Commonwealth or NATO?

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: @ batfastad

                      @ Charlie Clark

                      "So, if you accept the principle of representative democracy for the UK, how come you don't think it applies for things like the European Commission?"

                      You may not have noticed the problem with that. Cameron has been slammed for his turn tail and run (breaking his various promises on cue) and people railed at Blair promising to stick around and then doing a runner leaving brown in the brown stuff. People are not happy with it so why would we be happy with it from over there? More importantly we have been promised over and over to be given a voice over our membership of the EU and the promise has been dropped after each election. Now we have had a vote and returned the 'wrong' answer the anti-democratic monsters want a rerun or just ignore the people. The problem we have is the same one recently identified in the EU, the representative democracy isnt representing the people. Something that nearly scuppered the Canada deal.

        2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          I do not think UK politicians and civil servants can be trusted with anything more than a box full of paperclips.

          Sadly the eurocrats intent on building their European empire are even less trustworthy than that, unless they're delaing with gold-plated paperclips in their retirement funds.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "It's a bit like the argument that because people are worried about low skill immigration well automatically choose not to allow any more doctors or nurses to move here. A pure scare-story."

        The truth is somewhat more subtle than that - visa's are a pain in the backside, and your stay is not guaranteed beyond the length of the visa, so if you've got a choice between going to somewhere which requires a visa, and a similar place which doesn't, you go to the place not requiring a visa (effectively, you're unwittingly voting to discourage them and decide it's too much hassle and go elsewhere).

        Unfortunately, my limited experience of people on visas (1) indicates that the UK government is happy to deport people the kind of people you'd want to keep, for no real reason (co-worker who'd been here for ~10 years, employed throughout in a skilled job, visa not renewed and deported with ~2 weeks notice, due to having "not put down ties" [read: failed to get married or have kids]).

      3. I_am_Chris

        You have no idea

        "Our universities are funded by fee-paying foreign students, it would be insane to stop that flow"

        And yet that is exactly what is happening. EU applications down 9% ...

        www.theguardian.com/education/2016/oct/27/uk-university-applications-from-eu-down-9-ucas

        The utter joke about Brexit is that it was about 'control'. We have actually lost control, not gained any. Epic, epic, fail! The government know this and are pissing about trying to avoid telling us.

        We're going to get screwed by the EU, because they can and need to in order to stop it falling apart and there's bugger all we can do about it. Welcome back to the British 'glory years' of the 70s - 3-day week, no bin collections and hyper-inflation.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: You have no idea

          We're going to get screwed by the EU, because they can and need to in order to stop it falling apart and there's bugger all we can do about it.

          It's going to fall apart anyway, the best we can do is get out now while we can, to avoid being sucked into the crash. Brexit may be painful for a few years, especially if the Remoaners make it unnecessarily hard just to prove that they were right, but it's nothing to the pain that Greece, Spain, Italy and France are gong to suffer a few years from now when the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

      4. Pen-y-gors

        Foreign students

        "Our universities are funded by fee-paying foreign students, it would be insane to stop that flow

        Which is exactly what T May proposes to do. What does that say about her mental state and fitness to govern anything bigger than the sandpit at the local asylum?

        Does anyone have two qualified doctors a straight-jacket to hand?

      5. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        I'd suggest we stay in the EU science programs, if they want us. That should be an easy agreement, if negotiations don't go wrong.

        See what happened to the Swiss when they voted to limit immigration from the EU. Result: frozen out of EU research programs.

  8. Yes Me Silver badge
    Flame

    Mission Impossible

    "... ensure the UK science community gets a good deal from the negotiation process."

    What crap. The UK has no negotiating cards to play here, as far as Article 50 goes. After we leave (if we do), we can start to negotiate a deal to rejoin EU projects by paying full costs. Does anybody seriously believe any promises to finance that made by the current hypocritical and lying government? Anybody who believes a word of this poppycock is going to be seriously disappointed a few years in the future. If we leave. But Parliament can stop that happening, by forcing a general election, if May doesn't stop it herself, now that she knows the whole idea is doomed.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Mission Impossible

      @ Yes Me

      "The UK has no negotiating cards to play here"

      The UK is the only one holding any real cards. The EU is desperate to play hard ball and be difficult otherwise everyone else will leave. Currently we are holding their balls and they are trying not to cough. To make it worse some of their fanatics are shouting about punishing us and so on, and the worst they can offer is 'hard/clean brexit'. Thats not a threat, thats a good thing. We become free of the cartel tariffs and suddenly we are helping poorer countries through trade and getting reduced prices in the process. They are hitting crisis after crisis and no longer have the UK to hide behind and blame for not agreeing with every hair brained idea.

      The EU insisted we would be a basket case island nobody would care about outside the EU. Before we have left we have a queue from around the globe because we are smart enough to exit a sinking ship.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Mission Impossible

        The UK is the only one holding any real cards.

        Just keep telling yourself that, dear…

        As for the facts: Article 50 specifies that the other 27 members get together and decide what to offer the UK. Sounds a lot like holding all the cards to me, but you're obviously privy to other information.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Mission Impossible

          @ Charlie Clark

          "As for the facts: Article 50 specifies that the other 27 members get together and decide what to offer the UK. Sounds a lot like holding all the cards to me, but you're obviously privy to other information."

          Right. So? They get together and try to reach a consensus. As Canada will attest that is an amusing prospect. So far the noise from the EU seems to be demands for a hard brexit, but as soon as they realised people wanted to trade with us and we wont tank they are now practically begging we change our minds. Unfortunately their hard line 'punish em' lot are so determined it is a clean brexit that it pretty much makes the decision for us. But is that a threat to the country? Not really.

          Yes it would be nice if we could have access to the single market. But being outside the EU we can make deals they cant (back to that consensus problem they have) and even burn the regulations they imposed.

          For them to hold the cards they need something of value. The nearest they have is the single market but they want to offset those benefits with the rest of the EU machine which doesnt necessarily result in something positive. So lets amicably part and carry on.

          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: Mission Impossible

            they are now practically begging we change our minds

            Who's they? While I think most other European citizens would rather the UK wouldn't leave the EU, the politicians are in the business of winning elections. FWIW the chairman of the German CBI has already gone on record as saying that "it's a political issue".

            But again, I suspect you've got access to additional sources. I should just forget the fact that I live and work in Germany. What the hell would I know?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Mission Impossible

              @ Charlie Clark

              "Who's they?"

              Go look up the many who have asked/offered for us to change our minds. Feel free to add those who claim brexit will destroy the EU (you dont have to add those who said for campaigning reasons during the referendum).

              "FWIW the chairman of the German CBI has already gone on record as saying that "it's a political issue"."

              Yes it is. It is politics as in the EU not wanting to be politically embarrassed by a member leaving and doing fine without them (especially with their crisis list). It is a political issue as the eurosceptics are quite numerous around the EU. But then what isnt a political issue, left to politicians everything would be.

              "I should just forget the fact that I live and work in Germany."

              What does that have to do with the price of fish?

              1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                Re: Mission Impossible

                What does that have to do with the price of fish?

                Oh, I don't know, maybe something like I'm might be more likely to know what Germans think about the referendum: "what the fuck were the Brits thinking?" seems to be quite common. But you obviously know better, because, well why exactly?

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Mission Impossible

                  @ Charlie Clark

                  "Oh, I don't know, maybe something like I'm might be more likely to know what Germans think about the referendum: "what the fuck were the Brits thinking?" seems to be quite common. But you obviously know better, because, well why exactly?"

                  Eh? When did I say I know what the Germans are thinking? It is you that has mentioned Germany not me. From what I have read Germany wants us to retain links with the EU. As for "what the fuck were the Brits thinking?" thats what we wonder about those dreamy eyed people gagging to be part of the EU/Eurozone. That doesnt make either of us wrong but it does explain why we should amicably go our own way EU wise. Why do you seem to think you know the minds of most European Citizens?

                  I am not sure why you keep claiming I must have more information than you. We just seem to be interpreting the information differently. Apart from the Germany thing which you brought up and I am just joining in that conversation with you now.

                  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                    Re: Mission Impossible

                    Eh? When did I say I know what the Germans are thinking?

                    haha, you repeatedly assert what people are thinking such as when making your entirely bogus claims about the UK having a good hand in the negotiations, only to deny it when you get called out.

                    Just because the rest of the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, doesn't mean that they'll want to give the UK a good deal if it leaves. On the contrary, there will be lots of electoral pressure to play hard ball.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Mission Impossible

                      @ Charlie Clark

                      "haha, you repeatedly assert what people are thinking such as when making your entirely bogus claims about the UK having a good hand in the negotiations, only to deny it when you get called out."

                      I think you might need to reread my comments. Either you are misinterpreting my comments (no worries if so) or you are building straw men (to which you may as well continue having this conversation with yourself). As you have probably now noticed it was you who mentioned the Germans but also I have not claimed to know anything about what the people in EU countries think. What I have been discussing is the comments made by the EU officials and their varying attitudes which range from hard ball and negotiable. And as you pointed out they all have to agree to make anything happen and that means the clean brexit is the best we will get unless something seriously odd happens.

                      We already know the other side is going to be stuck on the hard brexit idea and hard brexit isnt a problem for the UK. It could be beneficial compared to remaining (obviously government depending).

                      "Just because the rest of the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, doesn't mean that they'll want to give the UK a good deal if it leaves. On the contrary, there will be lots of electoral pressure to play hard ball."

                      I dont disagree. But the only real benefit the EU has to offer is the single market, that is pretty much the value of their hand but they are insisting it comes with other commitments which cancel out much if not all of that benefit. As for our freedom of the EU cartel we will have access to cheaper imports without the EU tariffs and trade deals even the EU have yet to achieve. The uncertainty so far has boosted inflation lowered our currency and will likely reduce house prices. All the things the BoE has been trying to do since the recession in the hopes of getting the base rate back up.

                      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
                        Angel

                        Re: Mission Impossible

                        But the only real benefit the EU has to offer is the single market

                        Yeah, a mere trifle. Strange that Norway seems to think it's worth paying to get access to this even thought it has no say on its rules.

                        If you think trade is all about tariffs then you're in for a rude awakening in a couple of years. But I'm sure the steel workers of Britain are relishing the prospect of even more cheap steel from China.

                        Anyway, I'll leave you to your rosy-tinted dreams of a return to England's glory days.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Mission Impossible

                          @ Charlie Clark

                          "Yeah, a mere trifle. Strange that Norway seems to think it's worth paying to get access to this even thought it has no say on its rules."

                          You may again want to reread my comments. That is the one thing I point out as having value. I just point out it doesnt necessarily counter the negatives being insisted.

                          "If you think trade is all about tariffs then you're in for a rude awakening in a couple of years. But I'm sure the steel workers of Britain are relishing the prospect of even more cheap steel from China."

                          The steel problem was due to successes in the UK. We have a higher wage, higher energy costs (due to green energy) and a desire to recycle. That is why the part that was being shut down was the virgin metal furnace part. It is obsolete.

                          "Anyway, I'll leave you to your rosy-tinted dreams of a return to England's glory days."

                          Return to? Is this that remain fantasy of going back to the 'good old days' they attribute to the leave vote? You do know the EU was designed and developed for an era left behind?

            2. Paul Shirley

              Re: Mission Impossible

              " German CBI has already gone on record as saying that "it's a political issue"

              More importantly the German car workers agreed. They want trade to continue but the want the basic principles of Europe maintained more. The brexiteers seem incapable of believing money can be a secondary issue, despite complaining about the EU morphing into a poltical union they can't understand why anyone inside would make a political decision and sideline raw greed.

              So we're doomed to see them continue to claim a deal is possible right up to the point they're offered an all or nothing choice :(

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "ther 27 members get together and decide what to offer the UK. "

          Actually IIRC they get together and select 2 countries to do the negotiating on behalf of the EU.

          The UK does not get a vote on who they are.

          Could both be quite sympathetic (to a point).

          Could both have an axe or two to grind for various reasons.

          Could be a mix.

          IOW a total crap shoot. And that's just the selection process.

  9. I_am_Chris

    Ring fence

    Ring fencing is one thing, which should be applauded. However, post brexit we're facing at least a £3bn loss in funding. What's UK Gov going to do about that?

    This is on top of the fact that the UK has one of the lowest levels of science funding per GDP (1.7%) amongst leading nations (below EU average and massively behind USA) and has dropped since 2009.

    Core academic funding is critical for innovation, creativity and manufacturing. If it gets squeezed any further the whole country will suffer.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Ring fence

      Ring fencing is one thing, which should be applauded

      Ring fencing may be a crowd-pleaser but is usually bad policy. Governments have a job to do and need to ensure that they either have enough money to do everything they want to do; or make sure that they do as much as possible with the money they have. For example, the Tories under Cameron promised to "ring fence" the NHS but reduce overall expenditure. This meant more cuts to things like social security which ended up putting more pressure on the NHS. Or the "sequester" the US imposed after the last shutdown which forced the army into expensive contract cancellations and procurement deals it no longer wanted to pursue because entitlements were ring fenced.

  10. lglethal Silver badge

    Maybe im being cynical here

    but I read his comment like this:

    That the government wont shift funds from the 26bn that it currently provides to institutions for UK only funded Projects to cover the gap from the 8bn in Science funding that comes from the EU. That's a fine sentiment, BUT he makes absolutely ZERO mention about where the money for that missing 8bn is going to come from. The 5bn that goes TO the EU for Science doesnt come out of that 25bn, so the defecit isnt 3bn, it is 8bn. As you have about a snowballs Chance in Hell that that the 5bn that goes to the Eu for science funding will go back into UK Science funding. Science isnt a vote winner, I guarantee that 5bn will go to the NHS, or be used to prop up other departments who find there funding cut, when they realise they wont be getting back anywhere near as much from Brexit as they thought....

  11. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Too many experts

    I thought that we'd already agreed that there are too many of the bastards! Reduce these silly research budgets is what I say! I mean, what is it these so-called "scientists" actually do? Drink coffee, smoke pipes and stroke their beards (especially the lady scientists who are all lesbians by the way) I don't doubt.

    This is from my application to join the Daily Mail as Mrs Gove's dogsbody. What do you reckon my chances are?

  12. Pen-y-gors

    Start the countdown...

    until T May gives the Minister six of the best on his bare bottie with a wet kipper and says he wasn't authorised to say that. Counting 10...9...8...

  13. Tom Paine

    What with the forthcoming £350m x 52 = £18Bn / year increase in NHS funding, covering the CAP payments to farmers, funding for science and technology, the pay-to-play fees needed to get financial services access to the SM so that Canary Wharf doesn't become a ghost town, the regional development funding, and who knows what other special pleading,.. we're either going to be borrowing a lot more at rapidly increasing rates of interest, or taxes are going to have to go up at the 25% and 40% bands quite significantly. What a dilemma for a Tory Chancellor -- borrow, or raise taxes? Rather him than me.

  14. MAF
    FAIL

    Bus time!

    Please paint this on a bus and drive it around London to show how iron-clad this promise is....

  15. MAF

    Why UK science is heavily dependent upon EU funding

    This is the question that no one has asked. The reason being that over the decades UK governments have pared back funding (e.g. MAFF & DEFRA funded research). To keep going, organisations went out for EU grants (and in many cases were extremely successful) and a high % of their funding came from this source. This is why removal could be so damaging.

    It will still be possible to get funding from EU still but we have to be partnered by an EU state i.e. passive rather than active applicants....

  16. annodomini2

    Ah...

    So it's the first thing to be cut...

  17. Jess

    It's not the funding that's the issue

    We could solve that, (although I doubt we'll bother).

    The issue is freedom of movement. Collaborative projects are not going to be set up in countries where Scientists and their friends and families can't come and go as they please.

    The Swiss already have problems with their (as yet not enacted) referendum decision to end freedom of movement.

    (The Swiss aren't part of the EU or EEA, but have their own arrangement negotiated over many years which is like EEA membership, but without the banking freedom).

    I'm guessing they will either have to change their mind or hope they can get a Turkey style arrangement. (i.e sacrifice services to remove freedom of movement)

  18. Zmodem

    leaving the EU won't affect any science research, britain leads the world in drugs, never done much for space science, and you would expect scientists to earn more then £30,000 a year which immigrants need for long term stay

    all britain can do is give BAE Systems some of the £15bn eco money from the EU payments and redesign skylon to have EM pulse propulsion which can get to the edge of the solar system in 33 hours

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