back to article Brexit campaign group fined £50k for sending half a million spam texts

Pro-Brexit group Leave.EU has been fined £50,000 for sending up to 500,000 unsolicited text messages urging people to support its campaign, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) said today. The group, registered as Better for the Country Ltd and funded by millionaire UKIP donor Arron Banks, broke the law by not having …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

    I don't want to be bombarded by either side, thanks very much. I may be a bit dim but I'd like to know why the government is taking sides in this issue? Surely as we elect the government they should follow the will of the people and they should present both sides of the argument to ensure a fair referendum. I don't trust a government that's telling me what to think on this issue.

    1. andy gibson

      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

      "Surely as we elect the government they should follow the will of the people and they should present both sides of the argument to ensure a fair referendum"

      Isn't that why Cameron allowed each MP to choose which side they wanted to be on rather than having them toe the party line?

      1. Gio Ciampa

        Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

        Isn't that why Cameron allowed each MP to choose which side they wanted to be on rather than having them toe the party line?

        My local poodle (sorry... MP) has a toe-the-line rating in excess of 98% since being elected in 2001 (since last May it's 100%), so all we need round here is a Magic 8-ball where all the answers are Yes...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

        "Surely as we elect the government they should follow the will of the people and they should present both sides of the argument to ensure a fair referendum"

        Common misconception, but no. We don't live in direct democracies, but in parliamentary ones. Essentially, this means we elect representatives on the basis of -perceived- competence and give them a charter for making decisions for the benefit of the electorate, thereby acknowledging we ourselves do not possess the competence of dealing with these complex matters.. Even if that electorate does not agree with individual decisions.

        What Cameron is doing is playing chicken, because he is afraid of committing electoral suicide when the government's decisions proves to be indigestible by the electorate, and he can't find a way to explain it acceptably the next general elections.

        As fair and just as direct democracy sounds, in practice it is untenable.

        1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

          Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

          Call me Dave has already said that he won't be fighting the next election as Tory party leader so his exit door is there ready and waiting. He does not have (apart from some reputation) to lose.

          Personally, I see this whole thing as Vote out and get Boris as the next PM. Vote to stay in and BJ will quit politics at the next election (please!!!!).

          YMMV though.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

            "Personally, I see this whole thing as Vote out and get Boris as the next PM. Vote to stay in and BJ will quit politics at the next election (please!!!!)."

            So it's not just me that thinks he's a blond, opportunist twat. Good to know.

            1. Matt 4

              Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

              "At no stage has the gov followed the will of the people on this subject all the way from the beginning of the EU."

              The people had a vote, they voted to join. Just throwing that out there.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                @ Matt 4

                "The people had a vote, they voted to join. Just throwing that out there."

                To join the EU? When? Or are you talking about a common market vote about a common trading block? We were certainly offered a vote by labour if they were to be elected, and they didnt deliver because we wouldnt vote to remain.

                This will be the first vote on the EU. Hopefully if it is a leave vote they wont ignore it or just keep asking until they get the right answer. Based on their past performance.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                  "To join the EU? When?"

                  You mean you missed it? It was all over the news -- or do you not watch/read it? Maybe you weren't born in the 1990s, in which case you have even less right to comment.

                  It does pain me that the UK electorate demonstrate time and again their ignorance. I strongly suggest you read up on our democracy. BTW, what do you have to say about our democratic Upper House? Are you one of the blinkered fools that think that 'control our own destiny' means having to put up with a bloated (800+ member) crony institution is ok?

                  There is more democracy in the EU's little finger than there is in the UK.

                  Oh, and finally, let me make a prediction. Nothing will be better when we come out. Immigration will not be reduced. Or if draconian measures are introduced to forcibly stop people coming in our standard of living will reduce.

                  1. YARR

                    Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                    You mean you missed it?

                    The referendum in 1975 (not 1972 - that's when they signed the treaty before consulting the public) was to join a free market ("European Economic Community" / EEC) - not a political union. Since then they have tip-toed towards political union without consulting the public, signing over sovereignty to what has become the EU in stages.

                    There is more democracy in the EU's little finger than there is in the UK.

                    I disagree, the roles of the elected members are reversed. In Britain's unelected House of Lords, the Lords cannot propose laws, only debate them and vote to pass or block laws passed by the democratic House of Commons. The EU parliament is the reverse, unelected political appointees draft new laws and the democratic MEPs get to debate and vote on passing/rejecting laws = the equivalent role to the House of Lords.The EU parliament is based on the model of the USSR.

                    In Britain a member of public can consult their representative MP who can propose a change to the law in the commons. In the EU, you cannot ask your MEP to propose a change to EU law. On top of this, even if the public could change EU laws, they would need substantial influence to convince the majority population of the EU to support the change.

                    1. Mark 65

                      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                      The bit I find amusing about the Remain camp's campaign is when they talk about things being so much worse if we leave. They obviously don't realise that, if their points are true, then we are screwed either way. Do they seriously think that if the UK votes to remain then everything will be as it was before? No, the EU will push even harder on the UK to integrate and it will have little ability to refuse as Dave gained no ground in his negotiations and the populous would have just voted that they prefer being in the EU. There's no way the EU will let the UK piss about on the periphery after this very public event.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                @Matt4

                The people had a vote, they voted to join. Just throwing that out there.

                Sorry Matt but there has never been a vote by the people about joining a POLITICAL venture run by unelected people.

                Yes, the people did vote to join a common TRADING block which allowed the countries to keep their own sovereignty and laws. In no way was it portrayed as anything political - although, with hindsight, we can see that Germany and to some extent France, had this as the ultimate objective.

              3. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                No we didn't. We voted to join a common market, not to pass political authority or freedom of movement to the EU. There was no mandate for what has happened since we joined what was supposed to be a European trade deal.

        2. 9Rune5

          Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

          "As fair and just as direct democracy sounds, in practice it is untenable."

          ...but a parliamentary system works?

          In Norway we have had no less than two EU elections. The first in '72 (before I was born) the second in '94 I think. In 1994 the two biggest political parties both favored EU membership. IIRC the two parties had more than 50% of the votes. Yet slightly less than half the votes favored membership.

          Incidentally, the largest political parties in Norway all favor buying the F-35. Yes, you could vote for a party that is skeptical towards that purchase, but they are mostly loons when it comes to other issues. Not much of a choice really.

          In any case, the '94 election did not matter one iota. Norway had already joined the EEC and quickly signed the Schengen agreement. We adopt any and all EU regulation and we are effectively a non-voting member.

          I was convinced in '94 that EU was the way to go, but I am no longer that confident. Norway unfortunately kept a bunch of loonie regulations (half-prohibition, TV license fee and a heavy bureaucracy that dictates where you can build your house and how big the bathroom is) and added quite a few loonie EU regulations. I had hoped bureaucracy would be kept to more sensible levels, but that did not happen.

      3. Ian 55

        Free vote

        'Isn't that why Cameron allowed each MP to choose which side they wanted to be on rather than having them toe the party line?'

        No, it's because the Tories are so horribly split over the issue that he has no choice.

        1. Naughtyhorse

          Re: Free vote

          And this sop to the nutters will butter no parsnips!,

          Imagine we vote to remain. Any of those idiots looking like they'll stfu.

          As good a reason as any to stay in

      4. sysconfig

        Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

        Isn't that why Cameron allowed each MP to choose which side they wanted to be on rather than having them toe the party line?

        Oh how very generous of him. It's bad enough that the common back bench (and in many cases front bench) MP even cares what the MPs sitting in front and next to them think and vote for. They should vote for whatever is in the interest of their constituents, not some self-serving agenda dictated by the party leadership.

        (This goes for all MPs, not just Tories, and is definitely not limited to pro/contra Brexit, either, just to be clear.)

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

      "Surely as we elect the government they should follow the will of the people and they should present both sides of the argument to ensure a fair referendum."

      That would be nice, and different. However the only reason we get a referendum is the shock win of the tories after they made a promise thanks to UKIP. At no stage has the gov followed the will of the people on this subject all the way from the beginning of the EU.

      What I find irritating is that a non-UKIP group is leading the exit campaign (and doing things like this) when it was the UKIP group who caused this nod to democracy. I half wonder if the leave campaign is being sabotaged by the same idiots fighting to stay in. I remember the argument to get out being based on facts while now we have the remainers shouting of doom and the official leave group not being much better.

      I would love for facts to be presented for this vote but then we would vote leave. Something labour was very aware of and the current lot certainly are.

      1. Richard 81

        Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

        You sound like your mind is made up, and you'd like to see the "facts" that prove it.

        Both sides are spouting "facts" left right and centre, but they all disagree. It seems the problem is that there are very few actual facts available, since this is more of a "what might happen if" question so it's mostly guesswork.

        I distrust all of the people spouting these "facts" in equal measure. So, I'm going to stick to my view before the argument even started: "Being in the EU is fine. It's not perfect, but it's better than having to be the USA's bitch (or even more so)."

      2. Ian 55

        Facts

        Fairly obviously, when you have print media dominated by groups whose owners are 'outies' - there's a alleged Murdoch quote along the lines of 'when I go to Brussels, they tell me to fuck off, but when I go to London, they do what I say' - then the vote leave campaign should do well.

        But as with the Scottish independence lot, they can't offer any *facts* about life outside Europe. Lots of *hopes*, sure, but before 2008, the SNP's vision for an independent Scotland was a banking-driven success story, like Iceland but in the Euro.

        Fortunately, that one fell over in a horrible mess before the referendum, but the same level of wishful thinking is being offered by the leave lot now. We know what they'd like, a return to the 1950s, but not what we'd get, just the knowledge that whatever IDS says, the people in favour of out are not the friends of the poor.

        And the idea that Farage would be better at presenting the case is laughable.

        1. ToddR

          Re: Facts

          @ Ian 55

          We know for certain very little, but we fear that the EU will implode anyway. 65% youth unemployment in Italy isn't a success story

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Where is Nigel?

        Probably in a darkend room in a straightjacket if the rest of the BREXIT motley cru have anything to say about it.

      4. RegGuy1 Silver badge

        I would love for facts to be presented for this vote but then we would vote leave.

        How can you say that? You clearly don't know the facts, you've just admitted as much. So how do you know we would vote to leave?

    3. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

      "we elect the government they should follow the will of the people"

      What a lovely idea.

      1. Naughtyhorse

        Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

        quaint

    4. rtfazeberdee

      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

      Its up to the Brexit group to produce facts to backup what they say as we already know what the current situation is in the EU regarding trade etc. If they make outrageous claims as they have been doing, then its up to the government to correct them and point out the reality of what is happening now.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

        Its up to the Brexit group to produce facts to backup what they say as we already know what the current situation is in the EU regarding trade etc.

        So if the government says, say, "Every household will be £4300 a year worse off by 2030 if Brexit happens" they don't need to substantiate it?

        1. MR J

          Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

          If I drive my car too fast down the road then it could a) lead to deaths, or b) lead to more police on the road causing lives to be saved.

          There will be proof that every home will be worse off, and proof that every home will be better off. You will not know fully until it is done and everyone has agreed on things.

          I honestly cant see the EU saying that we can keep "Free Unrestricted" trade, if the UK was a majority Importer then perhaps, but some of the largest areas they are in the top 5 in terms of volume (probably higher in terms of % of GDP). The EU will seek to protect itself from foreign imports (U.K. will become "Foreign"). Ireland suffers with their people going across the border to shop for the basics, they will seek to protect this!. What will the UK do if the Irish impose a border duty on shopping?, they will seek to impose taxes on some part of "Irish" imports to try to make Ireland stop, and then it will move forward until we have a ETIP plan being hased out that no one is allowed to know about.

          I am not saying Moving away is bad or good, Just that we "the people" will never know about how these things will be until after they happen.

          When the U.S. was established it took them nearly 14 years to figure out where to put taxes and funding (and who to tax). The "Leave" group wants us to think we can simply quit today and all of the "Savings" will simply go where it is needed straight away, I rekon it will take at least 10 years to get the money flowing AND once it does we will find that McDonalds, Starbucks, and Google get to take a big chunk of it first.

      2. ToddR

        Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

        @rtfazeberdee

        Is your real name David Cameron?

    5. DavCrav

      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

      "I may be a bit dim but I'd like to know why the government is taking sides in this issue?"

      The Government has a position that being in the EU is good for Britain, and so it told everybody that. But you do get to choose, next month.

      "Surely as we elect the government they should follow the will of the people"

      Currently the will of the people is Remain, as every poll has shown. And the vote on this is next month, where the will of the people will be demonstrated. But by will of the people, you mean your opinion.

      "and they should present both sides of the argument to ensure a fair referendum. I don't trust a government that's telling me what to think on this issue."

      Those sides in full:

      Remain: good for the economy, trade, business, etc.

      Leave: Aah, foreigners. Country full, no immigration, terror, aah.

      The only argument that Leave has is immigration. This is like the whole climate change 'debate', where people say "present both sides" and if this were done 'fairly', climate change deniers would get 10 seconds at the end of a thirty-minute programme.

      Just because there are two sides to an argument doesn't mean both are equally right. There are two sides to an argument about whether slavery should exist.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

        @ DavCrav

        "The only argument that Leave has is immigration"

        It is a bit concerning that those wanting to remain have no idea what is going on. This topic is pretty complex and there are many reasons for wanting out which may not even mesh with each others views of leaving. But that works perfectly fine because it is all about control of our own country to determine our own destiny. To have the freedom to choose. For our vote to actually mean something (the will of the very people voting!).

        I have seen some arguments to stay. The reasons are also varied from 'the EU directly employs me' to I dont know what will happen if we leave (yes this is an actual reason I have heard!). But typically exist around free trade or not understanding the EU.

        For example people claim the leave camp have to explain what will happen when we leave. No we dont unless people are so brain dead as to not understand voting for the party you want to do what you want.

        However those who want to remain have a lot of explaining to do as the EU as it is cannot survive. That is pretty much a certainty and is pushing them to reform in the EU. But what is this reform? The borders are already closing after causing a huge migration crisis (I do laugh hard when people say the leave group are xenophobes but defend the EU). The EU is also defined by its currency (the one we needed to join to be relevant) that is in crisis. The EU that caused (not saying intentionally) a war in Ukraine and ran away, but is pushed as the reason for peace in Europe. The EU that wants an army but has caused massive rise in anti-EU and even far left/right groups. The EU currently being owned by Turkey. The EU that wanted to particularly attack the UK with excessive tax.

        So what will the reformed EU look like? What is this ever closer union going to look like? How much say will the UK have over the EU reform? Who will command the EU army and to what end? Will the UK be a relevant member or pushed out as we dont use the Euro nor want ever closer union?

        "Just because there are two sides to an argument doesn't mean both are equally right. There are two sides to an argument about whether slavery should exist."

        The problem is that when your on the 'wrong' side you may be blind to the other side. And while you are looking at me with that thought I am looking at you and your only reason comment.

        1. Naughtyhorse

          Re: The problem is that when your on the 'wrong' side you may be blind to the other side.

          thanks for explaining your entire post at the end there :-)

        2. DavCrav

          Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

          "It is a bit concerning that those wanting to remain have no idea what is going on. This topic is pretty complex and there are many reasons for wanting out which may not even mesh with each others views of leaving. But that works perfectly fine because it is all about control of our own country to determine our own destiny. To have the freedom to choose. For our vote to actually mean something (the will of the very people voting!)."

          So you are saying that the Leave campaign isn't all about immigration? I just went on Leave.eu's website, and their "vision" has five "Imagine" statements.

          1) The first is fact-free, simply adding up the cost of Britain's contribution to the EU and assuming that leaving it would have no impact on UK GDP, which is widely accepted as being nonsense.

          2) Aah, foreigners.

          3) Immigration.

          4) Aah, foreigners.

          5) Total rubbish.

          And that's their website.

          In fact, I looked at the policy document saying that we could be up to £933/year better off, and it's laughable. Apparently, if we leave the EU, the Government could remove VAT on petrol and booze, eliminate green levies on energy bills, and other such ideas that would never happen. Also, if we leave the EU then fairies could drop £50 notes on our heads as well, in which case we'd be much better off than a mere £933/year.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

            @ DavCrav

            "So you are saying that the Leave campaign isn't all about immigration?"

            Yes. Also you might want to try looking at the leave arguments because that link you said doesnt say what you claim-

            1) Vague comments about savings covering a little more than you mention. Interesting you have already found another argument to leave though already. Well done.

            2) Democracy. Freedom of choice. The right to vote for our leaders to do what we want. This is an important one, you may want to try to understand it as people all over the world have fought for it and are.

            3) Immigration

            4) Trade and looking to participate in the world at large not just that bit known as the EU.

            5) Amusingly pretty much 4.

            So from their website you manage to understand 2 (hope you wernt guessing) and that is from the 'official' leave campaign of late to the bandwagon who's comments are almost as shameful and fact free as the remain politicians.

            I suggest you give up looking at the official scare campaign (for either side) and look at the factual reasons for both.

            The amusing figures you point out (yes I laugh at them too) are about as useless as the various claims of being so much worse off. If we leave we will save on our contributions but what a government would do from there is up to whoever we elect. We would be free to make good or bad policy decisions. Aint you glad we are not in the Eurozone?

            1. DavCrav

              Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

              @codejunky Do you go to the Donald Trump School of Debating?

              "This is an important one, you may want to try to understand it"

              "So from their website you manage to understand 2 (hope you wernt guessing)"

              Rule 1 of not sounding like a dick: play the ball, not the man.

              "1) Vague comments about savings covering a little more than you mention. Interesting you have already found another argument to leave though already. Well done."

              Made-up reasons are not reasons. We wouldn't be better off: this is a reasonable statement. Even most people on Brexit side don't pretend that we would be.

              "2) Democracy. Freedom of choice. The right to vote for our leaders to do what we want. This is an important one, you may want to try to understand it as people all over the world have fought for it and are."

              I think I do grasp the basic tenets of democracy: the demos, a body of people, elect people to represent them. Like the European Parliament, which is elected via the demos of the people of the EU. The European Commission is appointed from the constituent democratically elected governments of the EU. Sounds about as democratic as any other democratic system.

              What you appear to mean is that you have chosen the UK as the correct boundary for the demos to vote as a bloc, and any other is wrong. This argument could be equally applied to Scotland, Yorkshire, and my road, which has rules imposed on it from those terrible people on these other roads. The difference between other European countries and other roads is that you have declared France to be the Other, whereas Newcastle-under-Lyme and Newcastle-upon-Tyne as being the Same. You are free to have that opinion, but it is just that, an opinion. It's not a reason for doing anything unless lots of people agree with you that this is the boundary of the Other.

              "4) Trade and looking to participate in the world at large not just that bit known as the EU."

              You mean like TTIP? So you are in favour of it? Stay in the EU, get TTIP, leave the EU, get TTIP-on-steroids? Or did you mean some other type of free-trade agreement?

              "Aint you glad we are not in the Eurozone?"

              Yep. I said at the time, to anyone who would listen (fewer listened then than listen now) that you cannot have monetary union without fiscal transfers. Setting one interest rate isn't great for the whole of the UK, never mind the whole of the Eurozone. It inevitably leads to to asset bubbles and overheat in some parts, and without fiscal transfers to smooth things over you get Greece. And you will continue to get Greece until there are fiscal transfers.

              Do you oppose fiscal transfers to Greece? To Northern Ireland? To Wales? To Cornwall? My guess is Yes, Maybe, No, No. But the reason for this is the same as the reason for choosing a size of demos: it's a matter of opinion. Broadly speaking, the younger people are the more they think that the EU is an appropriate demos for some issues, normally because of exposure and growing up with it.

              (If you think that that is indoctrination, note that the same happens with racism and exposure to non-white people. Either both are indoctrination or neither is.)

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                @ DavCrav

                "@codejunky Do you go to the Donald Trump School of Debating?"

                Is there one? Is this something you have any experience of? Or are you playing the man not the ball? I guess you have a different perception of your comments than claiming the only reason to vote leave is fear of immigration? And yes you only seemed to understand 2 of 5 points YOU provided. Either you intentionally misinterpreted them or do not understand them, hence I went through them for you as you notice in the rest of your comment.

                1) Economically we could be better off. We could be worse off if we do something stupid. We could be about the same. Oddly enough this falls under the uncertainty of economics and political policy. So yes it is reasonable for people to want to leave for economic reasons. Even if the official leave campaign dont represent it well.

                2) I am glad you grasp democracy, so you must see the difference between voting for leadership here vs the massively removed and far less democratic EU. Some people see this as a good thing about the EU, to reign in the excessive of our gov and stop our gov from doing things. Even to stop the gov's we elect.

                4) Ha TTIP the weapon of choice regardless of opinion of membership. I dont give a flying F about TIPP. The EU isnt sure its going to happen, Obama isnt sure it is going to happen and if it does people will be crying out against it anyway. The EU has a poor record of making trade agreements. It takes them so long because of so many members and even then veto's get in the way (was France recently threatening to?). If we want a trade agreement we can achieve that ourselves, as we have done for a long time pre-EU. We can choose who to trade with including the up and coming instead of waiting for the EU. Didnt the report on EU trade show nothing more than we could achieve on our own for the UK?

                "Yep. I said at the time, to anyone who would listen (fewer listened then than listen now) that you cannot have monetary union without fiscal transfers"

                Excellent. By the way the EU is going to reform (or die) and as such is pushing 'ever closer union'. The successful Sterling is being used to prop up the failing Euro. We are not in it and Cameron even got a signed agreement we wouldnt be bailing out the currency. That lasted up until the EU changed their mind and used our ever increasing contribution anyway because they need it.

                So in this reformed EU that nobody has yet road-mapped, what is remaining going to look like? Will we be a core member or an outer member. In the ever closer union we opt out of what will our position look like? Will it require the Euro? Will there be fiscal transfers and from where to who? Germany wont allow it. They already struggle politically with letting Greece off the debt it cannot pay.

                As for your indoctrination comment, I would say both. This is the desperation of having as young as possible voting in the hopes they dont know any better (Yes same for Scotlands vote). However I do think it is the politicians here that have consistently misrepresented the EU to the voters because we wouldnt want it. That is why a number of remain voters think we should stay even if it is a steaming pile, because it can change for the better and it isnt all bad. There are some reasons for staying in the EU (I have acknowledged). Usually that ranges from 'the EU directly employs me' to I dont know what will happen if we leave.

                1. DavCrav

                  Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                  "Is there one? Is this something you have any experience of? Or are you playing the man not the ball?"

                  Pointing out that someone has gone ad hominem is not an ad hominem attack.

                  "2) I am glad you grasp democracy, so you must see the difference between voting for leadership here vs the massively removed and far less democratic EU. Some people see this as a good thing about the EU, to reign in the excessive of our gov and stop our gov from doing things. Even to stop the gov's we elect."

                  I see the House of Lords, a House of Commons voted for by FPTP, the Privy Council, PCCs elected on less than 10% of the electorate, and Prince Charles flapping his mouth at every opportunity.

                  I also see a European Parliament elected by STV, and a European Commission appointed in the same way as ambassadors are.

                  In both, deals are done by horse-trading between the relevant people involved.

                  Why is the UK system more democratic than the EU one, apart from the fact that it's smaller?

                  Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to leave this as I am flying to Sweden in a couple of hours, and need to prepare a talk. I would say 'DavCrav Out' but that would by now just be cliché.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

                    @ DavCrav

                    "Pointing out that someone has gone ad hominem is not an ad hominem attack."

                    And pointing out that of the 5 points YOU posted from the leave campaign you only represented 2 of them correctly and the other 3 you either dont understand or misrepresent. In fact my first response to you was because of your ad hominem or severe misunderstanding-

                    Leave: Aah, foreigners. Country full, no immigration, terror, aah.

                    The only argument that Leave has is immigration.

                    "I see the House of Lords, a House of Commons voted for by FPTP, the Privy Council, PCCs elected on less than 10% of the electorate, and Prince Charles flapping his mouth at every opportunity."

                    I would agree that Charles can shove a sock in it but some people seem to think a royal family is great (I am not convinced myself). In this country we vote for the people who make the laws. We vote for the people who decide the direction of the country. YARR explains it well on this very thread. But if we want to reform it we have the freedom to vote to. If we are tied to the EU we cannot reform the voting process at all.

                    "Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to leave this as I am flying to Sweden in a couple of hours, and need to prepare a talk"

                    I wish you well on your flight and your talk. I have enjoyed our debate and I am happy for us to continue should you wish at a later stage. And we can mutually drop the ad hominem's if you like.

        3. Terry Barnes

          Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

          "It is a bit concerning that those wanting to remain have no idea what is going on."

          There's a significant difference between not knowing what is going on and people simply disagreeing with you.

          "For example people claim the leave camp have to explain what will happen when we leave. No we dont unless people are so brain dead as to not understand voting for the party you want to do what you want."

          It's significantly more complex than that. Many people's livelihoods and relationships are dependent on how this country interacts with others. If you want me to jump off a cliff you're going to need to do a better job of convincing me than telling me that once I've jumped I should vote for more parachutes. It's telling that no leave campaigner has managed to produce any evidence of positive discussions they've had with other countries about any post-exit deal. Magical thinking from the leave side isn't good enough.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

            @ Terry Barnes

            "There's a significant difference between not knowing what is going on and people simply disagreeing with you."

            Very true which is why I could clearly state not know what is going on because of this- 'The only argument that Leave has is immigration'. He has already found another reason and I am slowly guiding him to look at other options too! The lack of knowledge of the varied reasons is why people think the leave campaign are xenophobes while the opposite is true. The reason they think leave need to spell out the future but not the remain.

            "It's significantly more complex than that. Many people's livelihoods and relationships are dependent on how this country interacts with others."

            Very true. So why would we limit ourselves to the EU? Or do we particularly want to be friendly with Turkey due to a migration crisis instead of China and India where they are trying to develop their economies and improve their countries?

            "If you want me to jump off a cliff you're going to need to do a better job of convincing me than telling me that once I've jumped I should vote for more parachutes"

            Funny analogy but since the Eurozone is tanking and the EU is constantly in crisis with an existential crisis not gone I have to ask you to convince me why I would want my boat tied to a sinking ship which is repeatedly hitting the rocks.

            "It's telling that no leave campaigner has managed to produce any evidence of positive discussions they've had with other countries about any post-exit deal"

            Yes it is. It shows the delusion of remaining to cling to so little at such great cost. The EU as a loss means we ditch the shackles and guess what! We are back to doing perfectly fine before it. Stop looking for something better and start looking to get rid of what holds you back.

            "Magical thinking from the leave side isn't good enough."

            Feel free to apply that to the remain too.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Leave: Aah, foreigners. Country full, no immigration, terror, aah.

        June 24th: ah, I see another shipment of BMWs.

        Thanks very much.

        Wait, wait, wait... Where do you think you are going, Mr Hun? We want your cars, we don't want YOU. Bloody foreigners. Leave your cars here, and get back on boaty McBMW-face.

        1. ToddR

          Re: Leave: Aah, foreigners. Country full, no immigration, terror, aah.

          "Mr Hun? We want your cars, we don't want YOU."

          How thoroughly unpleasant your are.

          Voting to leave the EU isn't voting to hate europeans, prat!

      3. YARR
        Megaphone

        Brexit is a no-brainer

        It's wrong that tax payer's money was spent spreading government propaganda supporting the Remain camp - but if we sued the government the taxpayer would still be paying for it - that's injustice! Since they clearly don't feel bound by morals, we need a law preventing tax payer's money being used to bias public opinion. Hopefully their campaign will backfire as the majority of voters will resent being told what to think by the government.

        The figures clearly show we would be better off economically outside the EU but in a free-market, even if we had to pay to be part of their so-called "free" market. Therefore the claim that it's "good for the economy, trade, business" to remain in the EU is wrong. We would remain part of the free market, but we would be freed from EU red-tape, so overall Brexit would be better for the economy.

        The Remain camp continue scaremongering with lies that assume we would have to leave the free-market. We wont leave the free-market because we voted in a referendum to join the free-market in 1972. The Remain camp are even suggesting there could be war between European nations if we leave! Are they considering starting a war with Norway, Iceland or Switzerland? Clearly there are no genuine reasons for us to Remain, and there was no genuine reason to join which is why we were denied a referendum on joining in the first place.

        If the EU started playing silly-buggers to block us from their "free" market, or tried to force an unequal levy on us, then it would be high time to bypass the EU and form an international coalition to start a new international free-market. One which doesn't involve surrendering sovereignty but is based on mutual agreement between equal partner nations. One which is not bound by geographical borders but invites trade with any nation. One which does not levy large payments to join but instead is operated efficiently at the lowest cost and a balanced budget. One which does not seek to use access to markets for political control.

        Finally, although economics are important, real quality of life is what matters most . Higher income does not equate to improved quality of life if the downsides associated with the economic gain outweigh what the additional wealth can buy. If we leave the EU and regain control of our borders, this wont fix our problems overnight, but it will stop issues like the housing crisis from deepening for reasons beyond our control. EU membership is not much benefit overall if goods traded with Europe are a few pennies cheaper but the cost of housing has risen 200-300% beyond what is affordable due to the huge influx of migrants over the last decades.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

      why? Well, because if we're out, he's out (of the job) too.

      oh dear, I'm so cynical!

    7. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      £50,000 for up to to 500,000 unsolicited text messages

      10p each sounds a pretty good deal to me, especially as they are all going to be read, which is more than you can say for mail drops.

      But is this price pro rata or is there a bulk discount - i.e. if you only want to send 25,000 unsolicited texts then do you pay more than 10p each? And I assume that volumes less than a thousand or so are free, or at most a pissy letter?

      Maybe these are questions for the ICO's sales department.

    8. Terry Barnes

      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

      "Surely as we elect the government they should follow the will of the people"

      No, that's not how our system works.

      Parties publish a manifesto and are elected to carry it out.

      If they simply followed the majority (or most significant minority) view on every issue there'd be no point in electing different parties as they'd all have to do exactly the same things. The government is elected to govern.

    9. strum

      Re: Why is "Call me Dave" Cameron telling me what to think?

      > Surely as we elect the government they should follow the will of the people and they should present both sides of the argument to ensure a fair referendum

      Something of a contradiction there. An elected government took us into the EU (EEC), expressing 'the will of the people'. An elected government offered us a way out of the EU (EEC), expressing 'the will of the people'. An elected government took us deeper into the EU, several times, expressing 'the will of the people'. Now, an elected government is giving us another way out of the EU, expressing 'the will of the people'.

      This govt is entitled to have a view on the best answer, and to express it. Anyone who imagines this is like X Factor, hasn't been paying attention.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "it had obtained the list of phone numbers from a third party."

    That is the root of the problem. Make it illegal to trade in such things (ie email addresses too) and life will be much better for the whole country.

    1. Hans 1
      Happy

      >Make it illegal to trade in such things (ie email addresses too) and life will be much better for the whole country.

      Would Facebook not LOVE that one, he ?

    2. Lee D Silver badge

      It doesn't matter if you received it from a third-party of not.

      It's the responsibility of the SENDER to ensure that there is explicit consent. Someone can bung you every phone number in the world, for £20, and it's still up to you to make sure they consented to being contacted by you.

      There's a reason that most places don't sell their own lists, or that you have to enter into agreements with them beforehand. Because if their wording says "third parties", it's up to those third-parties to know that they were given consent by the user, not just by the people flogging off the numbers.

      And most spam comes from just number-guessing or illegal data leaks from telecoms firms and others, nothing to do with third-party sharing. I've got a number that I guarantee I have NEVER consented to anyone to use - pretty much nobody would ever be able to prove in a court of law that I consented to them sending me any texts or sharing my details, even companies that I deal with on a regular basis - and I still get spam texts and calls. I report them.

      The problem is not the ability to buy lists, or that idiots press send without checking. It's that phones do not whitelist by default ("Do you want to accept a text from 0777777777?" with "Yes", "No", "Never" and "Never from any number I don't have in contacts"), that when discovered and reported the slap is so pitiful, faking of CLI numbers (how is that still possible, let alone legal?) and that they just don't get shut down quick enough (seriously, if a spam comes through and I report it, and the majority of people who receive that same text do the same, why would you continue to allow delivery of it?). Some numbers on the "whocallsme" kinds of lists have been on there for years.

  3. davidp231

    Sadly making the trade illegal will do nothing to stop it.

  4. frank ly

    Translation

    "Many of those who were sent the texts had consented to receiving messages about areas including leisure, home improvements and insurance ...."

    Many of those who were sent texts had purchased or enquired about leisure goods/services, home improvement materials or insurance. They had foolishly given their mobile number, thinking that this would be used in case of a genuine and urgent need to contact them.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Translation

      I was approached in Clinton Cards yesterday. I could have 4 cards for the price of 3. Very nice. Tthank you. As I've got about 7 birthdays to go to this month, that's actually quite useful.

      Please just give me your mobile number. Huh? My email sure. I've got a spam folder, and an unsubscribe button if your mail is annoying. But nope, you don't get the mobile, so you can call me with pointless crap when I'm busy.

      Just getting this from estate agents now, as they've a legit reason to ask for my mobile when booking viewings, but of course I also have to suffer the weekly "courtesy call" to see if I like the look of one of their places, but somehow am too dim to be able to phone them and book a visit.

      1. Naughtyhorse

        Re: Translation

        Sure my mobile numner is...

        07870 123456

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: Translation

          I imagine they text you the voucher, to get round that. Like places now emailing you the voucher, rather than just putting you on a mailing list, with all the other m-mouse@disney.com ones.

  5. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge
    Flame

    so how much are the "stay in" campaign going to fined for out and out stealing 9 million quid from the taxpayer and then sending 25 million unsolicited snail mail leaflets?

    1. DavCrav

      "so how much are the "stay in" campaign going to fined for out and out stealing 9 million quid from the taxpayer and then sending 25 million unsolicited snail mail leaflets?"

      You mean the Government, which did it? Ooh, let's fine them a quadrillion pounds, payable to the Government.

      There, all better.

      1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

        ok , I'll settle for Community Service , because there's precious little of that gone on .

        They should be forced to return the 9,000,000 out of the 750K they were awarded to run the campaign with.

      2. Naughtyhorse

        A qadrillion!!!11!1!

        bit steep for a first offence... call it ten bob

  6. astrax

    To be fair...

    Cameron has done more for the Brexit campaign then the pro-leave guys have. After being essentially bullied by the USA/Japan without any reasonable support from our "leader" AND having the ridiculous notion of war in Europe being thrown down our throats, a big part of me wants to clarify that the people of the UK are not all total idiots, Mr "Call me Dave" Camermoron.

    1. Gordon 10

      Re: To be fair...

      You do get that the mutual interdependency fostered by the EU is partly credited with the fact that there hasn't been a major war in Western Europe for 80 odd years right?

      1. astrax

        Re: To be fair...

        I think you are being very generous with the word "partly" there. The formation of both the UN and NATO have been far more influential in keeping peace then the instantiation of the original trade treaty that has grown into what we now call the EU.

        Also, I have a stone that keeps Bears away; yours for a mere £50,000.

        1. Mark 65

          Re: To be fair...

          Perhaps you didn't notice the scuffle in the Balkans? The odd touch of genocide occurring on the EU's doorstep? Strictly speaking not the EU but pretty much Europe. If you're basically stating that the Germans haven't started another war then you've obviously missed the economic and political colonisation that's been going on. They just got a bit smarter over how they ended up ruling Europe - why use tanks when politics and promises will suffice.

  7. tiggity Silver badge

    "The only argument that Leave has is immigration"

    And that's dubious, given (if we left) we would have to negotiate a lot to trade with the EU, a (significantly non zero) chance "free movement" would be a requirement, so the xenophobes would not get their wishes and UK would not have any say in big EU decision making.

    I'm not a fan of the EU, but at least they provide a bit of a brake on some of the more deranged UK gov policies, and stop us slipping into total zero rights sweat shop of Western Europe, and without some of their their environmental directives our air quality would be even worse and our pitifully small amounts of good habitat and wildlife even more depleted

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So your argument for remaining in the EU is that it weakens the democratic process to push through policies you personally approve of. That sounds much like the arguments I've heard from a number of pro-EU people who still laughably describe themselves as democrats.

      1. KeithR

        It DOES NOT "weaken" the democratic process, it simply changes it somewhat.

        Your wilful dumbing-down and misrepresentation is typical Brexit Simpleton-Speak.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          It does weaken it.

          The two examples quoted above were pollution laws (including the habitats directive) and 'rights' at work. Why should those be dictated by the EU? Is the voter not capable of choosing what kind of country they want to live in and what kind of pollution laws they want? By taking the decision away from people and handing it to the EU you strip the people of their democratic right to choose the kind of country they live in.

          I wouldn't want to live under a Corbyn government but if that's how people vote then so be it and I don't want any government being told 'You can't do that because the EU says not'. What's the point in voting?

    2. David Pollard

      Environmental directives?

      I was no great fan of the 'Iron Lady' but, credit given where credit due, Margaret Thatcher's ability to understand the science of the ozone layer and to explain the dangers of CFCs on the world stage played a large part in the development of the Montreal Protocol. This secured international agreement on an international issue.

      It seems to me that what is needed in the way of environmental protection is politicians who properly understand or at least appreciate the underlying science rather than teams of bureaucrats with alternative agendas.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      And that's dubious, given (if we left) we would have to negotiate a lot to trade with the EU, a (significantly non zero) chance "free movement" would be a requirement

      Yeah right! Exactly how is that going to fly as a deal not breaching WTO rules. I'm pretty sure you can't equate market access with zero border controls. I don't think "if you want no tariffs then touch your toes" is a valid negotiating standpoint. If we vote to leave all those agreements don't suddenly vapourise. You might not have noticed that the EU has a large amount of trade with the UK also. The imports and exports are pretty symmetrical and you shouldn't discount the Rotterdam effect.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I think you are missing the point. Staying does not mean status quo.. There will be change whether we stay or leave. Staying just means we are tied in to ever increasing EU march of control, over legislation and costs of supporting an increasing number of failing nations. Leaving allows us to choose who can come here based on the skills that we need rather than just open free movement of skills that we don't need (and resulting driving down of wages for such professions). Leaving allows us to make our own trade deals (we are currently not allowed to do so), removes us from ridiculous farming subsidies which results in huge amounts of waste food, and allows us to properly secure our borders. And any arguments about us being less safe are nonsense. GCHQ, MIx are revered the world over - they will want our intelligence mostly, not the other way round. Finally, the EU is just about the worst performing economy in the world. Are we really going to keep ourselves tied to that market?

  8. Big_Boomer Silver badge
    Childcatcher

    Do what the Bankers tell you

    You are all completely missing the point here. The ONLY reason for the UK to leave the EU is to prevent the trading banks from having to toe the line and stop pissing money up the wall (and into bonuses). They want unregulated trade so they can steal more of your money and get away with it.

    The EU is a bloated, undemocratic, slow old monster and sorely needs good a kick up the jacksie but leaving is never going to solve anything. Essentially what the leave campaign are saying is that they want a divorce and they don't want to try marriage counselling and who cares what happens to the kids. Have you experienced your parents divorcing or seen a friends parents divorcing. Yes life goes on but the effects are generally crappy for all parties, at least for a while,... and the ONLY winners are the lawyers.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Do what the Bankers tell you

      That isn't the only reason.

      Plenty of people have done well out of the EU. The rich, the well educated, the economically mobile, academics - all of them have done well. But plenty of people haven't done well. If you don't have lots of skills and a good education and you aren't mobile because you've got three kids at school and you aren't bright then the EU is bad for you. More people coming to the UK means more children in schools and that makes it harder to get your kids in to a good school.

      If you're rich that doesn't matter. You can move house. If you're poor, you're stuck and your kids may end up at Stab Comprehensive.

      What about training? These days companies don't need to bother training their staff. They've had 15 years of just hiring the next batch of highly educated eastern European migrants, and they've been able to cancel their training budgets altogether. Job progression and training for the people who need it the most are gone - thanks to the EU's freedom of movement. Who does that punish? Not the rich or highly skilled or well educated, but the people at the bottom of the pile.

      A system is worth nothing if it doesn't consider the needs of the people at the bottom as well as at the top. The EU doesn't do that. It was designed by the rich and successful, for the rich and successful. That alone is a reason to leave it. If we leave it the whole horrible edifice will come crashing down and perhaps we can rebuild an EU based upon real co-operation rather than centralised, top-down bureaucracy.

      1. RegGuy1 Silver badge

        Re: Do what the Bankers tell you

        " If you're poor, you're stuck and your kids may end up at Stab Comprehensive."

        And what, pray, has that got to do with the EU? Do you know what the EU does (and doesn't do)?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Do what the Bankers tell you

      >Essentially what the leave campaign are saying is that they want a divorce and they don't want to try >marriage counselling and who cares what happens to the kids.

      Yes it it is tough, and you do need to be brave, but it has to be done for a better future for us all. Let us not lose our bottle as Scotland did.

  9. Cardinal

    Friends, MEP's, Countrymen!

    Well, I can only say that I sincerely trust that all our UKIP MEP's are undoubtedly going to do the honourable thing and get their shoulders to the wheel, put their noses to the grindstone and their backs into wholeheartedly encouraging the UK populace to vote them out of their 8,020 euro's/month salary by going for Brexit.

    Well naturally they're going to do that. What other course of action would honourable men take? - And we know that MP's in general are undoubtedly the most honourable people in the country simply by looking at the numbers of honours they receive. I mean, the House of Lords is stuffed full of 'em. MP's even refer to each other as "The honourable member".

    So are they all, all honourable men.

    The people rest M'Lud.

    1. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Re: Friends, MEP's, Countrymen!

      If you are going to quote Kelvin Mackenzie then at least have the decency to credit your source.

      1. Cardinal

        Re: Friends, MEP's, Countrymen!

        "Kelvin Mackenzie"? I don't read the Sun so don't know what you're referring to.

        About the only Kelvin Mackenzie related things that come immediately to my mind are the Belgrano headline and the Hillsborough disaster.

        The only quote in the body of my post was one line from the Mark Antony speech with "So are they all" in 'Julius Caesar'. Don't think Kelvin Mackenzie wrote that. Maybe you think otherwise though?

        1. Cardinal

          Re: Friends, MEP's, Countrymen!

          p.s. Just what ARE you talking about by the way?

          Since you've piqued my interest, Ive done a 'Startpage' search for Kelvin's name but came up with nothing that seemed remotely relevant to my post, so just do the 'decent' thing and elucidate a little.

          Or is it just that you're a UKIP and/or Brexit supporter?

          Ahhh, the mists are starting to clear perhaps?

  10. inmypjs Silver badge

    SMS Spam?

    Should have asked the government for 9 million quid of tax payers money to post paper spam like the other side did.......

  11. BurnT'offering

    In March 2016 it fined Labour MP David Lammy £5,000 for making nuisance calls.

    Doesn't he have anything better to do?

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fines can't really address this

    I'm sure those favoring a particular position/candidate would be happy to spend 50K on a fine if they felt reaching 500K people was worth it - that's only 10 pence per person which is pretty cheap advertising!

    Even if you had fines big enough to make a difference, if you have an organization pushing a single position like Brexit or a particular candidate right before the election, what happens if the organization has no money to pay a fine? Let's say you want Brexit to happen, so you form a dozen corporations to send out unsolicited texts (we'll assume those help your position rather than hurt it for the purposes of this example) Money is put into their accounts only as needed to pay the immediate bills, so they will have nothing available to pay any fines levied on them. As one gets caught and fined it is simply abandoned and another takes up its place sending the unsolicited texts.

    If the authorities could find out who is behind it all maybe they can go after him, but if all those corporations are owned by a shell corporation operating internationally, that might be kind of hard to do in practice, unless there's another Panama Papers type exposure.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Rules are for little people!

    As an American, I agree that Britain remaining in the EU is in the U.S.' interest. However, it is more than a little rich that the British government has no problem punishing pro-Brexit spammers, while HM government stuffs every mailbox in Britain with pro-EU unsolicited junk mail.

    Which leads me back to the title of this post.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    Should've fined them €50k instead...

    That would've been somewhat amusing.

  15. Crazy Operations Guy

    What about fining them for that stupid word

    Every time I hear the 'word' "Brexit, I wan to smash my head against the wall until I forget the English language. It sounds like something some mouth-breathing Fox News anchor came up with after a weekend of binge drinking air conditioner water and self-administered lobotomies.

  16. KeithR

    Political junk mail OK when it's pro-EU and from gov.UK

    No, political junk mail is "OK" WHEN IT'S LAWFUL.

    Perhaps the authors of this piece should focus more on the legalities and less on their anti EU bias? I don't need that any more than I need pro-Brexit texts.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If the Remains win...

    ...will we be able to reform Parliment? ie remove the MPs. It will be a redundent tier of government.

  18. Yugguy

    Bloody hypocrites

    I've had so much spam mail of the Remainers.

    My 10 year-old daughter has even had a pamphlet given her at school expounding the virtues of the EU.

  19. deive

    These f***ers spammed me with snail mail, even though I am on all no-spam lists and ex-directory etc! They need fining again for that methinks.

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