back to article Police Scotland will have direct access to disabled parking badge database

Police Scotland has been given direct access to Scottish councils' databases of disabled parking badge holders in order to crack down on fraudsters misusing them. An agreement was reached between the single Scottish police force, Police Scotland, and the country's 32 local authorities to allow the police direct access to the …

  1. Calleb III

    Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

    Nothing in the article indicates a basis for this negative statement, making it sound like it's a bad thing. Probably the author is one of these fraudsters and feels salty about it...

    1. Alexander J. Martin
      Joke

      Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

      The author is not one of those fraudsters, but appreciates the libel.*

      The subheading was an inclusion from an earlier draft, noting that our enquiries regarding who maintained the database, and what the Police procedure was for querying it, as well as whether a Privacy Impact Assessment had been made, sent us into an endless loop of being referred back and forth between Police Scotland, COSLA, Transport Scotland, and a man called Gordon Catchlove at Edinburgh City council. This was all so exhausting to note we decided against including it.

      * See icon

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

        A convoluted procedure to access the data is no use when they are stood by a car trying to check if its a fake blue badge or not.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

          A convoluted procedure to access the data is no use when they are stood by a car trying to check if its a fake blue badge or not.

          And what data do they actually use? Are badges tied to registration numbers?

          My father had a blue badge, quite legitimately. When he & mum came to visit us they would bring the blue badge with them so I could put it on my car when we went shopping or out for a trip.

          Anyone seeing me, or my car, would have immediately jumped to the conclusion that I was scamming the system, unless they happened to see my dad walking slowly back to the car from the shop.

          1. Glenturret Single Malt

            Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

            Exactly. The blue badge goes with the individual not the car. I sometimes feel the same way as you mention when parking my car to go and collect my son from the swimming pool etc.

          2. Pax681

            Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

            As a blue badge holder(War veteran with screwed knees and back), badges are no longer tied to a single license plate but to the person.

            The blue badges here have a photo of the badge holder on them and the badge holder must be in the car when the badge is used/presented.

            I have seen people totally at it myself.

            It's hard enough for people to get awarded the blue badge these days... for those who have never had to go through the massive amounts of bullshit to get them it IS very fucking annoying to see blatant bullshitters or the family or friends of a blue badge holder using them without the badge holder present.

            So GOOD is all I can say top this regulation to be honest

    2. The Indomitable Gall

      Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

      I suspect the reason for the direct access is the issue of non-visible disabilities. If a police officer sees a single, fully mobile person get out of a blue badge car, how is he to ascertain whether that's not someone with brain damage leading to reduced memory (thus needs the car in plain sight on leaving the shop) or someone with a colostomy bag who just needs to get to a WC in a hurry.

      I've heard plenty of stories about such people getting regularly stopped by police, and the police have (rightly) toned down their checks to avoid embarrassment to the public. But this has left them unable to challenge any abusers, and that's not fair on those with a genuine need. At least now they can radio in to the control room and ask to confirm whether the car/badge is flagged as non-visible disability or not, and only challenge where it isn't.

      1. d3vy

        Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

        @gall.

        Exactly - if the blue badge is owned by a 80year old woman and a guy in his 20s is the only occupant.. Or the car is in a place where an 80year old would be unlikley to frequent (say a carpark outside an indoor ski slope)... Then further enquiry is warranted... It may of course be that the person is legitimatly entitled to park there, but we should be checking to stop the few that do abuse the system.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

          If a relative quickly needs medication it could be reasonably argued that going to the chemist to get it for them is a legitimate use of the disabled badge.

          Now whether the police understand that when they've got a little computer in their hand which says 'no' is another thing...

          1. d3vy

            Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

            If a relative quickly needs medication it could be reasonably argued that going to the chemist to get it for them is a legitimate use of the disabled badge.

            You could argue it but you would be wrong.

            To be a legitimate use the disabled person needs to be present and must exit the car, you cannot use their badge to nip to the shops (no matter how vital you deem it to be) and you cannot use it and leave them in the car when you run into the shop for them.

            They exist to allow the disabled user easy access to amenities from their vehicle, if they are not there or not making personal use of the facilities then you cannot use the badge.

            As a side.. If you are in that much of a rush for medication you should probably call an ambulance... Or plan your visit in advance.

          2. Dan McIntyre

            Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

            Nope - that's not a legitimate use of the badge and this is specifically mentioned in the handbook that is issued with a badge.

        2. kiwimuso

          Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

          @ d3vy

          While it pisses me off that people do abuse the system, really, is this the most heinous crime that the police can think of to target, that they need instant access to a 'private' database.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Safeguards? Pff, what an old-fashioned notion

            It's not the most heinous crime, which is why they need instant access to a 'private' database.

            Petty crime like that needs fast, low-cost methods of prevention if there's hope of fixing it.

            (We have a disabled relative, have a placard (USA) in our car (they issue 2), and only ever use it when the disabled relative is in the car.)

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why badges?

    They should confiscate the vehicles instead and put them into the crusher for repeat offenders.

    That will be perfectly fitting for polished M3s, Cayennes, Jags and Q7s which you usually find in disabled bays. Making the crushing public will be nice too. Special Top Gear section: operation Tw*t Control reporting from your local scrapyard. Oh, and make the tw*t driving it watch it too.

    1. Hans 1

      Re: Why badges?

      >That will be perfectly fitting for polished M3s, Cayennes, Jags and Q7s which you usually find in disabled bays.

      With drivers hopping out of them, running like marathon men to get to the shop.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why badges?

        "With drivers hopping out of them, running like marathon men to get to the shop."

        Saw one the other day at Tesco's - some old pepper pot decided to put their nose in when he got out of the car (there were dozens of other empty disabled bays) - and the driver came back with the best reply ever to being told "You're not disabled" - he said "Fuck off you old bag, I've got Tourette's!". ROTFLMAO.

        1. Triggerfish

          Re: Why badges?

          No he didn't have tourettes, he was inflicted with being a wanker.

          I hate people who park in those spaces when they shouldn't in my Saturday job days we used to announce them across the intercom and ask them to move their car when it happened. Luckily our manager had no problms with us shaming them.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Why badges?

            "announce them across the intercom and ask them to move their car when it happened."

            And presumably they simply ignored you until they completed their shopping.

            "Luckily our manager had no problms with us shaming them."

            How terrible for them - a few randoms that they will likely never see again walking past in the car park while they get in - most of which wont even remember the announced reg number!

            1. Triggerfish

              Re: Why badges?

              No we usually pointed it out as they were walking in as the parking spaces were right by the door, most people would turn back and actually move their car at that point, the power of a lot of people queing at tills staring at you I guess. If not we used to stick a notice on the car asking for it to be moved, a good tape that leaves glue residue helps.

              Course there's alway some twat who thinks he is entitled, but if you let people get away with it without trying then more fool you.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Why badges?

                "If not we used to stick a notice on the car asking for it to be moved, a good tape that leaves glue residue helps."

                Of course, you realise not everyone who is disabled and has a badge is in a wheelchair? They might even have a "good" period where they can walk almost normally. They are really happy to get back to their car and find out some tw*t like you has damaged it.

                1. Triggerfish

                  Re: Why badges?

                  Well if they are disabled then they have a disabled badge sticker, which means then they can park in the space that's how it works mate, if they don't fuck 'em.

                  Generally speaking if someone has a blue badge then I give them the benefit of the doubt, thats why the police should be able to check.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Why badges?

                  "you realise not everyone who is disabled and has a badge is in a wheelchair?"

                  Correct.

                  "They might even have a "good" period where they can walk almost normally. "

                  Correct again. And the handful of people I know in that situation would choose to not use a blue-badge space unless they really need it on the day.

                  You can live a lie until you die, one thing you can't hide is when you're crippled inside.

                  1. Wzrd1 Silver badge

                    Re: Why badges?

                    "Correct again. And the handful of people I know in that situation would choose to not use a blue-badge space unless they really need it on the day."

                    I use it constantly. I never know when a good day will turn into a bad day and I have trouble getting back to my car.

                3. StephenTompsett

                  Re: Why badges?

                  If they are having a 'good day' then they have NO NEED of the space and should leave it for someone who does NEED it.

                  1. Brenda McViking

                    Re: Why badges?

                    That is simply not the case - MS sufferers being a prime example. My friend's Mum can be having a great day on the way out of the car and to the shops, and then have a turn and lo and behold, the use of that disabled bay means that she can actually make it back to the car and get home safe in an hour, rather than 5 hours if she parks where everyone else has to.

                    Of course, she gets abuse all the time, having those few good days that she does have ruined by ignorant fuckwits like yourself. Disabled doesn't mean you have to be in a wheelchair, she's perfectly well entitled to use it. So unless you're a qualified medical professional able to diagnose people with a 3 second glance, go be a social justice warrior somewhere else. If people abuse the system, that's up to them - and it is down to the police to identify them and enforce the proper use of badges, not you or the rest of the general public.

                    1. Mark 85

                      Re: Why badges?

                      Amen to that. My wife has an artificial leg and walks very well. She finally gave in to the doctor and got her handicap placard (not a badge here in the States) because of her other issues. You'd be surprised at the number of twits who berate her as not being "disabled".

                      1. d3vy

                        Re: Why badges?

                        She should take it of and use it as a bat to get them with...

                      2. Roland6 Silver badge

                        Re: Why badges?

                        My wife has an artificial leg and walks very well. ... You'd be surprised at the number of twits who berate her as not being "disabled".

                        #isitok to suggest she should splash out on a custom paint job - maybe everytime she decides to change her hair style and show off her leg a bit more...

                    2. Wzrd1 Silver badge

                      Re: Why badges?

                      "...go be a social justice warrior somewhere else."

                      Indeed, the few times I've challenged a non-placarded vehicle owner, it was when I couldn't find an open handicapped parking spot.

                      But, with my placard, if someone tries to give me a hard time, I fully reserve the right to wrap my fine wooden cane around their head.

                  2. Wzrd1 Silver badge

                    Re: Why badges?

                    "If they are having a 'good day' then they have NO NEED of the space and should leave it for someone who does NEED it."

                    And how about when a good day turns to shit?

                    Oh well, crawl to your distant car, right?

                    I've had many a day where I was having a great day, walking nearly normally, only to suddenly be incapable of holding myself up without support.

                    Hence, I use the handicapped parking, lest I hold up traffic in the lot while limping to my car.

                4. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Why badges?

                  Yep, or I park up with a blue badge, wander off - obviously not disabled - and come back with a disabled passenger to find this sh!t stuck fast to my windscreen because the twat has jumped to the wrong conclusion.

                5. Wzrd1 Silver badge

                  Re: Why badges?

                  "Of course, you realise not everyone who is disabled and has a badge is in a wheelchair? They might even have a "good" period where they can walk almost normally. They are really happy to get back to their car and find out some tw*t like you has damaged it."

                  Indeed, that's a swift way to find a brick through a shop window.

                  Especially, as I am one of those who can walk about nearly normally, then have spectacularly bad days where I can barely walk at all.

                  I've even been known to limp past an able bodied person who took the handicapped parking spot and ask, "Are you disabled or handicapped?", when the answer was no, "Would you like a disability?". They move their car rather quickly.

                  Just as well, I don't want to damage my cane.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why badges?

      They should confiscate the vehicles instead and put them into the crusher for repeat offenders.

      Seems to me the plods have got the wrong end of the stick. We've all seen people using blue badges when (to all appearances) there's nothing wrong with them at all. Not unreasonable of the police to check that the users are bona fide. BUT...round my way they do little or nothing about misuse of disabled bays by people with no blue badge at all, and that looks to be a far more common occurrence.

    3. EddieD
      WTF?

      Re: Why badges?

      This is an odd one.

      My friend has a blue badge, but it attaches to him, not to any car - on occasions I've taken him to the shops in my car, and we've used his blue badge to park, quite legally.

      Okay, that was about 3 years ago, but, unless they've changed the blue badge system, I'm not sure how the police will be able to tell if a car parked using a blue badge is legitimately parked or not, unless they wait for the users of the car to return.

    4. d3vy

      Re: Why badges?

      Because disabled people can't drive nice cars?

      And all disabilities are visible?

      Actually with the mobility component of the DLA covering some pretty nice cars at no extra cost I'm surprised we don't see more bmws etc parked in disabled bays.

      1. Pax681

        Re: Why badges?

        WRONG.. the cars which could nothing are not BMW's etc.. for those you have to front a payment.

        the only cost free cars are small ones.

    5. lady grey
      Joke

      Re: Why badges?

      Crikey, I thought you said badgers. Just drop one through the sun/moon roof opening and get your chair and bag of popcorn.

  3. James 51

    I am sure that nothing like this will happen:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mum-girl-rare-disease-finds-6378882

    Or

    http://kfor.com/2015/05/08/mom-with-invisible-disability-finds-disgusting-note-on-car-after-using-handicapped-spot/

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Not a good example

      In the second case the woman didn't have a blue badge. She shouldn't have been parking in a disabled spot without one, even if she had applied (an application is far from certain to succeed).

      As someone who's wife is entitled to a blue badge it annoys me how many people think it's fine to park in a disabled bay without one. Similarly using a badge when the holder isn't with them.

      1. 2460 Something

        Re: Not a good example

        Actually they are both very good examples of the disgusting and cowardly behaviour of trolls. Just as you get trolls online, as soon as they think themselves anonymous they are happy to launch abusive rhetoric against others with no thought or consideration for anyone else's feelings, well being or personal circumstances. In both of these cases some troll has emerged from their cave and in a moment of perceived anonymity has launched an attack. A sad indictment of the low intelligence, and thereby lack of compassion, of our fellow country(wo)men turned opportunistic troll. Even if people who use the bays were healthy that still doesn't give anyone the right to attack them like this. Police monitoring their misuse seems over-the-top considering there are already avenues to do this through the council and police budgets are already stretched thin (or maybe the police get to keep income from these fines and they are using it is a budget generator like speeding tickets?), but I'm OK with that. Reporting their perceived misuse, no problems, go for it (all local councils have contact information specifically to do this). Forced removal of misused blue badges and penalties for misuse, absolutely. But what sad degenerates of society think it is appropriate for them to behave like these cretinous examples?

        In the second one she was parking somewhere that didn't require the use of a blue badge so it is immaterial. In both of these cases it should have been reported to the police who could (and should) use the stores CCTV to try track the troll(s) responsible and give them a caution. When trolls become accountable for their actions they generally hide back in the cave and save the rest of us from having to interact with them. Trolls, in every way, are a blight on any society that purports to be civilised.

        tl;dr. I do hate trolls I do. Blue badge misuse has avenues of redress available through your local council, trolls always seem to get away with it which makes them braver, and worse, the next time.

        And the down vote wasn't me :)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Not a good example @2460

          While I don't approve of trolling, a car park not explicitly stating that disabled bays are for blue badge holders only doesn't entitle her to use such a bay. If she had a badge and it was on display do you think she'd have returned to that message?

          1. 2460 Something

            Re: Not a good example @2460

            Did you just read the tl:dr bit? :P

            Part of the point I am making is that it doesn't actually matter as per my original rant

            "Even if people who use the bays were healthy that still doesn't give anyone the right to attack them like this."

            There is no excuses for it. Whatever lies they tell themselves don't justify the actions. If they wanted to do something about it then a quick call to their local council's blue badge misuse line would provide a much better outlet, and would actually be constructive in weeding out misuse. The council know the medical condition of the blue badge applicant and so don't need to jump to erroneous conclusions about those with 'hidden' symptoms. If the blue badge is being abused it will be withdrawn.

            All of the people I know with blue badges are very careful to ensure they are used appropriately, as without them it massively affects their ability to get out and about.

          2. Wzrd1 Silver badge

            Re: Not a good example @2460

            "If she had a badge and it was on display do you think she'd have returned to that message?"

            Probably, I have returned to such a message tucked under my windshield wiper.

            It's a shame I didn't know who placed it there, I could've been in need of a new cane after I broke it over their heads.

    2. Just Enough

      Nothing like this will happen

      Do you think it's likely that Scottish Policemen will look up the database, and then leave a nasty note on offenders' windscreens?

      I imagine it's more likely they will identify those who have no right to be using the parking space and leave a deserving, but not nasty, ticket on the offender's windscreens.

      1. James 51

        Re: Nothing like this will happen

        I think that every time access to a database is expanded there is pressure to expand access further and it is abused. Now, instead of having to justify their requests for private and sensitive information they'll be able to look it up at will. Instead of a nasty note people may have to justify themselves to someone with a warrant card. No doubt the new system will be faster and cheaper but imagine what the policeman selling info to the News of the World had access to a database like this.

        How long do you think the pressure will be on to give traffic wardens access so they can perform their duties as well?

        1. Triggerfish

          Re: Nothing like this will happen

          The thing is the police selling to news of the world were corrupt anyway, so database access is a moot point. They were not good coppers.

          You want to stop that sort of stuff, we need to start convicting the right people and stop letting those people at that level get away with it and be more open with things like IPC complaints, restricing them from doing there job because they can't be trusted is looking at it the wrong way.

        2. Wzrd1 Silver badge

          Re: Nothing like this will happen

          "Now, instead of having to justify their requests for private and sensitive information they'll be able to look it up at will."

          Bloody hell, they already can look up your vehicle registration, address, name and in some cases, your photograph.

          So, now they can look up a handicapped placard. It isn't your medical history, it's a name and number.

          Any law enforcement officer who sells information should be held accountable to the very laws that they are supposed to enforce.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Nothing like this will happen

            "So, now they can look up a handicapped placard. It isn't your medical history, it's a name and number."

            As far as I know, it's literally medical history. All of it, not just items related to the card. Up to date.

            It's not just if you have a card, it's also why you have card and should you still have it. Something a mere police isn't competent to decide.

      2. Wzrd1 Silver badge

        Re: Nothing like this will happen

        "I imagine it's more likely they will identify those who have no right to be using the parking space and leave a deserving, but not nasty, ticket on the offender's windscreens."

        I forgot my placard and parked in a handicapped parking spot, was limping badly with a cane and received a citation for parking in the handicapped spot. My youngest daughter was present and explained that to the office, his reply was, "I don't care".

        I moved away from that asshole state.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My Mum got a blue badge when she had a hip operation (really groovy jazz, yeah,...)

    She and my Father then became sort of addicted to it and loved the fact that they could 'park anywhere' - my Father even using it when he was alone and quite able to walk places. I found this rather embarrassing as he liked to 'show off' that he could park anywhere.

    They bemoaned having to surrender the badge long after my mother had fully recovered, so I suspect there is a lot of misuse of the system but I have no idea how it could be fairly enforced in the spirit of its intention.

    1. A K Stiles

      Some sort of expiration / revalidation date?

      1. joshimitsu

        Yes -

        There is a need to renew them, every year I think.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Yes -

          They have an expiry date on them. You're also supposed to surrender them when you don't need them any more (though that seems to be the problem, getting people to let go).

          1. James 51

            Re: Yes -

            They have to be renewed yearly which does limit the abuse of people carrying on using them. If your condition has an element of good days and bad it can be tempting to hold on to it just in case. However the renewal process is very 'vigourous' and just because someone got it one year doesn't meant they'll automatically get it the following year.

        2. Wzrd1 Silver badge

          Re: Yes -

          "There is a need to renew them, every year I think."

          In the US, there are handicapped placards and permanent handicapped license plates.

          Typically, a plate holder will also get a placard, for use in other vehicles. The plates are renewed as part of a registration renewal.

        3. Pax681

          Re: Yes -

          not every year, but for the length of the "award" which can be 1 year to perpetual.

          Mine is perpetual(which actually gets renewed every 7 years" here in Edinburgh.

          Getting these passes has become increasingly harder the longer the tories are in and they keep changing the rules.

          they changes the rules 3 times in as many months the year i got awarded Disability living allowance (2014)which is soon to change to Personal independence payment which means yet another fucking medical most probably.

          i shall be there with my Regimental Association Rep as they have been more than famous for royally fucking disabled people about. I had to appeal that time and i wear fucking leg braces and use a stick!

          Luckily this time i know what the score is and will make sure i have plenty of evidence from my doctor, consultant,physio etc.

          My cousin who passed away from MS last year was once refused it and the poor guy had been in a wheelchair for 5 years at this point and was in constant chronic pain.. he said it was like pins and needles on fire on his skin 24/7.

          This is partly why people that do have them for genuine reasons get pissed at people who fuck around with them or just park in the blue badge bays without one.

          It's bad enough having a disability without having to be made to metaphorically jump through hoops to get one then some assholes takes a spot who isn't entitled to be there.

    2. LucreLout

      I suspect there is a lot of misuse of the system but I have no idea how it could be fairly enforced in the spirit of its intention.

      Limit the BHP and engine size of vehicles that may be parked using the blue badge. People who need to park very close to their destination will make do with the reduced performance and lack of status of a small fiesta or gutless mondeo.

      I recognize its not fair on the genuinely disabled, but at least they'll be able to get a space without some knobber leaving his cockrings in their space (Audi).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        twat

        So if they become disabled they must buy a new car, because you're jealous of what they drive?

        My GF has a bad knee, in a few years she may need a blue badge ( although not currently ). In that situation, I should sell my Jag because you can't afford one?

        1. LucreLout

          Re: twat

          So if they become disabled they must buy a new car, because you're jealous of what they drive?

          Me?

          No, not at all. I have more horsepower than I'll ever need. I can buy pretty well any new car I might want so in that respect I envy nobody.

          The problem as I see it is rarely to do with actual disabled people, more often it is able-bodied people abusing grannies blue badge, when she's only in the car once a week for Sunday lunch. The rest of the week their car is simply tying up spaces to which they have no right.

          Limiting BHP won't matter a jot to granny, but it would matter to Mr Cockrings and his status symbol.

          As I said, I accept that would adversely impact disabled people who wanted a more powerful car, and I don't have a solution to that. It seems to me that being able to access a space may be more important than theoretical top speed enroute, so discouraging badge misuse may be a net good.

          I offer it as a point of debate as opposed to a final solution. As I never park in disabled bays, it doesn't matter to me personally if they're full, so we could simply do nothing and I'll lose no sleep.

          ETA: You may be assuming I'm not a petrolhead and that I have no expectation of needing my own bluebadge in the too near future, where neither are true.

          1. d3vy

            Re: twat

            As I said, I accept that would adversely impact disabled people who wanted a more powerful car, and I don't have a solution to that.

            How about let people disabled or otherwise buy whatever f*cking car they want and stop people who don't need to from parking in the disabled spaces?

            But no your expensive unfair system is much better.

          2. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: twat - @LucreLout - #yourebeingadick

            "Limiting BHP won't matter a jot to granny"

            It has finally clicked! You totally missed: the 2012 paralympic's, Walking with the Wounded and many other events and organisations that have put 'disabled' people on primetime.

      2. James 51

        Not sure how practical that is. It's rare but someone may need a large vehicle to carry a wheel chair, equipment and a carer. Or someone who has a large family car becomes ill is effectively forced to buy a second small car that can not accommodate the whole family. A case by case basis could be brought it but that would drive the cost of administering the system up.

      3. GrumpenKraut
        Facepalm

        They'd also be easier to recognize if they had to wear some sort of patch ... just ask your local Hitler.

        Frankly, WTF were you thinking when posting?

      4. Terry Barnes

        @lucrelout

        You need to think harder.

        I have 3 amazing kids, one of whom uses a power chair. We have a big car with a ramp for his chair and extra suspension bits for the weight. If you can lift him from his powerchair into a mondeo without injuring you or him you must spend a lot of time in the gym. I'm not sure where you'd then put the chair though.

        It needs to be quite powerful to carry all that weight around, especially when we drive it to go on holiday. We can't fly because of all the extra kit we have to take and the ramp issue. Tried getting a hire car with a ramp before, or trusting an airplane hold with a powerchair?

        1. LucreLout

          Re: @lucrelout

          @Terry

          I think if you read what I wrote you'll find I acknowledged both times that situations such as this would be a problem. Its probably also a problem when you find lots of people with elderly relatives tying up the bays despite granny being at home.

          1. Terry Barnes

            Re: @lucrelout

            So your solution to abuse by normally-abled people is to punish the very people the system is intended to help? Like I said, think harder.

      5. d3vy

        So my architect brother in law will have to trade in his (own not subsidised) BMW x5 and get a fiesta just because he was born with a height limiting disability and struggles to walk long distances?

        Or my sister shouldn't get that DS5 because my nephew has the same condition... Shed be better of with a polo anyway.. What with the massive pushchair etc...

        I don't think you have thought this through.

        1. x 7

          my simple answer to that is ANYONE (disabled or not) who feels entitled to drive a gas guzzling mobile road hazard such as an X5 or C5 is a deluded antisocial fool who cares not for the environment, planet or fellow man.

          Me? I'd go for compulsory scrapping of all such oversized vehicles. They burn too much fuel. They take up too much space in cities.They kill people by being driven too fast (unfortunately the people they kill are other road users, not the inhabitants of the vehicle). As for parking spaces, if you are inconsiderate enough to drive one of those tanks, don't complain if the metal heap is too big to park in standard size spaces. Thats your self-imposed problem, not ours.

          1. d3vy

            Ahh.. So people shouldn't be allowed to choose what car they drive now?

            Well that's just brilliant.

            So what exactly do you suggest my brother in law does with his caravan? Or the horse box? I suppose given enough time he could push it... But if seems a bit unfair to make a disabled guy push a caravan to France once a year...

            I also suppose that you COULD get a wheel chair on a roof rack on a fiesta with a boot full of shopping.. Seems a bit ridiculous though.

            Just because you don't see a need for big cars doesn't mean that some people done have a need for them.

            And just because people don't have a need for them doesn't mean they should be stopped from buying them.

            Last time I checked this was a realitivly free country, you seem hel bent on making it some kind of north Korea...

            As for your assumptions about fuel.. an X5 driven at 70 on the motorway (its where he spebts alot of his time) at low revs is more economical than a small engined car revving its nuts off doing 70.

            As for your comments about injuring other road users... A smart car doing 50 will still f*ck up a pedestrian, admittedly a big car will do more damage in a collision but then a small car will do more damage than a push bike.. And a push bike will do more damage than a pedestrian.. So let's all walk everywhere.

            Better yet, lets all sit at home and not leave the house.

            1. x 7

              to be quite blunt I'd ban towed caravans and towed horseboxes. Both are nothing more than dangerous mobile chicanes which endanger those who use than and all other road users.

              As for being allowed to buy gas guzzlers? I place them in the same category as cigarettes: they may be available but they are socially unacceptable, They kill through accidents, through misuse, and through pollution. Using them is a mark of being an inconsiderate antisocial pariah.

              As to your comment re a big car being more economic....... not if driven at safe legal speeds. The only way a 4x4 tonka toy is going to beat a family hatchback at economy is if its driven so fast (and badly) that mass becomes a relative irrelevance - which only happens at illegal speeds

              1. d3vy

                Ok,I've realised that you are actually a very engaging troll or an absolute cockwomble (or both).

                Either way I've spent enough time speaking to you, off to decide what accessories I should buy for my merc.

                Night x

                1. x 7

                  " what accessories I should buy for my merc."

                  most merc owners just buy a blonde bimbo trophy wife for decoration in the passenger seat............

                  1. d3vy

                    "most merc owners just buy a blonde bimbo trophy wife for decoration in the passenger seat............"

                    my current wife wont let me :)

                  2. kiwimuso
                    Facepalm

                    @X7 Wow!

                    Wow, Do you have a fucking great chip on your shoulder or what!

                    I have seen some rants before, including some of mine, but yours has as much logic to it as the Flat Earth Society proponents.

                    You've somehow managed to take a discussion on disabled parking and in one quick bound, take it to your own personal hatred of, it seems, just about anything you don't personally agree with - and also managed to denigrate every person out there who might aspire to either a car with a bit more room for whatever reason, or something with a little power because you know, they actually enjoy driving.

                    A large vehicle or more power does NOT equate with irresponsible hooniness (or is that hoonism?)

                    Most people of my acquaintance, admittedly not a large scientific survey, usually acquire larger or more powerful vehicles simply because they've decided that it gives them a bit more comfort when driving.

                    Personally, when returning from the UK to NZ I bought a second hand (2001) Audi Quattro 2.8 V6 Tiptronic wagon because I got it a good price, it gave me room in the back to load stuff into for my landscaping projects, not to mention taking the luggage of our overseas visitors, and it was a cut above what I would normally buy, and I enjoy driving it, and being Quattro, it's far safer than your silly little fart boxes. First rule of not having accidents is have a vehicle which allows you to avoid getting in that sort of position in the first place.

                    Now as age has crept up on me, (how did that happen) it's a bit low to the ground to comfortably get in and out of, so despite disliking SUVs mainly for the reasons you quote, I might very well have to resort to one. Not one of the huuuge monstrosities like a Jeep Cherokee or other 'designed for the U.S. market' type SUV but something that still has the room I am looking for, with a bit of power and comfort but of a more modest size and a damn sight easier to enter and exit.

                    BTW, for the month or two before having both my hips replaced, and walking was extremely painful and I was still working, I had the NZ equivalent of a disabled parking badge, and I made full use of it, and also the period following the operation, probably about a month, so maybe 3 months in all.

                    Once I was walking OK again, fairly quickly for a double hip op, it must be said, as the pass was still valid I used it then as well, but feeling 'slightly' guilty I used to limp away from the car, until I was out of sight. I still couldn't walk that far in one go, so I didn't feel too guilty about it.

                    A niggling pain in the groin left over from that op done in 2004, doesn't make entrance and egress from a smaller car easy, hence the larger car.

                    1. x 7

                      Re: @X7 Wow!

                      "and also managed to denigrate every person out there who might aspire to either a car with a bit more room for whatever reason, or something with a little power because you know, they actually enjoy driving."

                      Good, you got the message. Its that sense of automatic "entitlement" again which people use to self-justify irresponsible acts such as overusing the earths resources. Driving overlarge vehicles too fast is one such example.

                      "A large vehicle or more power does NOT equate with irresponsible hooniness (or is that hoonism?)"

                      I don't know the word "hooniness", but if I did I'm certain I would disagree. Large vehicles and more power both equate to selfish use of resources, and increased risk on the road to others

                      "Most people of my acquaintance, admittedly not a large scientific survey, usually acquire larger or more powerful vehicles simply because they've decided that it gives them a bit more comfort when driving."

                      There are a lot of smaller vehicles out there which have perfectly adequate performance and comfort levels for driving, even long range. Insisting that a large vehicle is required for such tasks is self-delusional

          2. ICPurvis47

            I am a retired, disabled pensioner who drives a "gas guzzling mobile road hazard". I used to drive a small sports car, but with the onset of my disability and the subsequent corrective surgery, I found I could no longer get into or out of it without a serious struggle. Eventually, I traded it in for a larger vehicle, one that allowed for easy entry and exit, but I ensured that it was cleaner and greener than the Scooby, as it runs on LPG and not either petrol or diseasel. One troll verbally abused me at the local supermarket, I said nothing, but ripped open my shirt to show him the livid scar across my chest, he didn't know what to say or where to look. As many people have pointed out, many disabilities are invisible (unless, in my case, I am naked from the waist up), and the size of the vehicle is often an absolute essential in order to deal with the driver's problem.

      6. Wzrd1 Silver badge

        "Limit the BHP and engine size of vehicles that may be parked using the blue badge. People who need to park very close to their destination will make do with the reduced performance and lack of status of a small fiesta or gutless mondeo."

        How kind of you to fuck over the handicapped! What other wonders would you bestow upon the helpless? Perhaps a badge to be worn with their disability emblazoned upon it?

        Fuck off.

    3. Warm Braw

      "sort of addicted to it"

      My Mum has a badge because she has a lung condition which makes it difficult for her to walk far. However, she'll occupy a disabled bay (denying it to someone who needs the additional space around the vehicel) rather than a regular bay, even if it's further for her to walk - she seems to feel validated by the "special" status.

  5. TonyJ

    Also Parent and Child bays

    Usually the same selfish, often fat and lazy feckers that will abuse the disabled bays.

    I do have one genuine question though. Many of my local supermarkets - especially the local Asda's have literally dozens and dozens of disabled parking bays. One of the larger ones has to have more than a hundred of them. And yet, there are about 20 parent and child bays. Even on the busiest of shopping days, the disabled bays are mostly unused - is there some kind of ratio they need to stick to with regards to total number of bays and percentage of disabled?

    Just looking around, I'd honestly say there are far more parents with kids shopping at these places than disabled folks so it seems an odd imbalance.

    1. TRT Silver badge

      Re: Also Parent and Child bays

      Yes there is. It's usually codified in the local planning regulations. Same applies to schools, college, businesses etc, and often depends on how far away they are from public transport. Mind you, one could always charge blue badge holders for parking anyway like they do at some hospitals.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Also Parent and Child bays

      Just looking around, I'd honestly say there are far more parents with kids shopping at these places than disabled folks so it seems an odd imbalance.

      Which is part of the problem. Because there's (at many but not all car parks) acres of very poorly utilised disabled parking, it encourages people to conclude that there's neither the need, nor any inconvenience caused by misuse.

      Round my way, there's entire floors of unused disabled bays on multi-storey car parks. A little bit of common sense and adjustment might actually bring need and provision closer together, and actually discourage misuse, rather than idiot planners and policy makers dictating what provision should exist.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Also Parent and Child bays

        "it encourages people to conclude that there's neither the need, nor any inconvenience caused by misuse."

        No, it encourages *you* to think that.

        Many disabled people try to shop outside of peak times because getting through a crowded shopping centre in a wheelchair can be a right pain - literally in a lot of cases.

        That the spaces aren't fully utilised when you are there does not mean that they never are.

        If you're envious of being able to park what is for you a 30 second walk closer to the shop you might want to consider what being confined to a wheelchair or having quadriplegia might be like. Then you might need to ask yourself why you're jealous of the single, tiny advantage such a disabled person might have over you. I reckon most would be willing to swap.

    3. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: Also Parent and Child bays

      More importantly the P&C bays are often not adjacent to the store - there is usually at least one "road" to cross (I put road in quotes because there seem to be a significant minority who think it's a racetrack)

      Most disabled people I know are perfectly capable of crossing a road safely - albeit slowly.

      Most toddlers are not - and they can do so at high speed.

      To be fair to the supermarket I use now - they are much better and have reversed the usual arrangement, so the P&C bays are against the building, and the disabled bays are a full 5 metres further away - I know that 5m can be significant, b ut given the variation in distance between the closest and furthest bays is an order of magnitude larger....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Stop

        Re: Also Parent and Child bays

        "Most disabled people I know are perfectly capable of crossing a road safely - albeit slowly.

        Most toddlers are not - and they can do so at high speed.""

        If you can't control you kids, put them on reigns. I know it's not cool & trendy ,but better than getting them killed. Both mine had them until they knew how to behave in car parks...I had no issues shouting stop at the top of my voice to terrify them into stopping, no matter who looked at me.

        And I preferred the spaces away from the store, then they are less likely to be abused and are in quieter parts of the car park.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          It's usually the kids (and the old people) who do that thing where they open their car door too wide and give a £200 dent in the side of your car.

          So having them isolated together in wide spaces is no bad thing. Not having them running through the car park is also good. And the width allows parents to get the car seat thing out.

          And the supermarkets like the idea because it gets them more business, so the odd bit of resentment is going nowhere.

        2. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          My kids are fine - they were on reins for a large part of toddlerdom. But there is always that interval between getting them out of the car seat and putting the reins on - particularly when you're doing child 2, child 1 being held in the other hand...

          I also have no issue shouting when required, and it still works ;)

          But I also am aware of the ridiculous speeds some people seem to think are necessary in a car park, and with mostly obscured sight lines to everywhere a secure route from those places to the store isn't a hard thing to provide.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Joke

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          > If you can't control you kids, put them on reigns

          That's great for William and Kate but what about the rest of us?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Also Parent and Child bays

      "often fat and lazy feckers that will abuse the disabled bays"

      Surely that's the most common genuine qualification for using them?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Also Parent and Child bays

        In my experience having children didn't make me a special person who is more important than others and nor did it stop my legs from working.

        I also found that one of the keys to being a parent is making the children do what I say, so I've never found going to a supermarket much of a challenge even though, by modern standards, I've got a large family.

        I really can't see the need for parent and child spaces at all and certainly not nearer than the disabled spaces which are often used by people who can only walk very short distances.

        1. IanRS

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          Yes, children can be leashed or taught to behave sensibly once old enough. However, there is still one really good reason for wide P&C spaces: It can be almost impossible to get a wriggling child in or out of a car seat when you can barely open the door because of the over-sized SUVs either side.

          My son's nursery shares the same building as a gym, and the P&C spaces are normally filled with high end cars containing no child seats, driven by people who have gone there for the purpose of exercise, but who do not want to walk an extra few meters across the car park.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Also Parent and Child bays

            Ah! P+C spaces finally make sense, thanks! I've always wondered why they existed.

            1. TRT Silver badge

              Re: Also Parent and Child bays

              The inter-car space in a P&C area should be at least four feet given the way a toddler jumped into the car whilst mum was distracted, hand on the door and the seat, feet off the floor, swing, door opens wide, *SPANG* into the side of a neighbouring car leaving a lovely dent. Toddler ends up on floor, mind you, arse first, so that was a laugh. Mum double-times packing the car and drives off before anyone challenges her.

              I was very thoughtful and wrote an explanatory note to stick under the windscreen and took a snap of the parents car driving off with my child's FujiInstant camera they habitually had in those days.

        2. TonyJ

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          "...In my experience having children didn't make me a special person who is more important than others and nor did it stop my legs from working.."

          Now, I didn't say it made anyone special or more important. Nor did I say they should be closer to the store/replace the disabled bays. I asked a question about a parking configuration that's there. Get off your high horse and stop making assumptions. Also...you have a very high and mighty attitude, so I suspect you actually really do think you're better or more important than others (and your next comments back this up).

          "...I also found that one of the keys to being a parent is making the children do what I say, so I've never found going to a supermarket much of a challenge even though, by modern standards, I've got a large family..."

          Yeah and 99.9% of the time my kids will do exactly what I say when I say. But they're kids. They do things seemingly at random and y'know it's part of being a kid. So is a bit of rebellion.

          "...I really can't see the need for parent and child spaces at all and certainly not nearer than the disabled spaces which are often used by people who can only walk very short distances..."

          Narrow spaces with car seats - things which maybe you didn't need to use by law back then - can make it extremely difficult to get a small child into and out of a space, Many - granted not all - parking spaces are really too small and could be made a few inches wider to everyone's benefit.

          Just because you cannot see a need for something doesn't mean that need doesn't exist.

        3. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          @AC - I really can't see the need for parent and child spaces at all and certainly not nearer than the disabled spaces which are often used by people who can only walk very short distances.

          Well, when you have kids that you have to put into a car seat and can't open the door more than a fraction then you might appreciate them. As for reins, yes - my kids were on reins for a good while, and still get shouted at occasionally - but that doesn't stop me wanting to put another layer of safety in place. It's not hard to have P&C spaces accessible without battling idiots in cars..

          As for distance - it happens that at my local supermarket the disabled bays are now 5m further away - I don't actually care about the distance, I care about the route. I'd be happy with remote P&C bays with a secure route (as I have seen at a number of stores).

          I am happy for you that your children were all beautifully behaved and you had enough hands to hold all five of them whilst simultaneously carrying a weeks worth of shopping... but that's not reality for most people.

          Personally I'm now right at the edge of needing those bays - the kids can climb in, but they can't yet do up their belts, so I do need to open the door far enough to lean across them and clunk-click...

          Not long before they can do that though - they can certainly undo them themselves (yes they always ask first)

        4. IsJustabloke
          Childcatcher

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          "In my experience having children didn't make me a special person who is more important than others and nor did it stop my legs from working."

          It's got more to do with the size of the spaces. I'm quite happy for the P&C spaces to have the room to swing those huge 4x4 doors wide open with gay abandon as the littleuns inside are wont to do; that way there is no danger to my car's bodywork.

          And of course I know you're superhuman and it doesn't apply to you and yours but the children of lesser mortals have been known to "slip the leash" as it were and simply throw their arms and legs about without due regard to their surroundings, having the P&C spaces gives me an opportunity to locate the likelihood of finding myself with a new bonnet ornament and behave appropriately with ease.

          You know, speaking as someone that has no children that is.

        5. Rob Daglish

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          Clue: P&C bays aren't about your legs not working. It's about having room to open the car door wide enough to be able to put the kids into their car seats without me having to mash your car door to do it.

          I do realise they are provided as a courtesy, but they do make life a lot easier, especially as there seems to be some rule that says you need X car parking spaces for every square foot of floor space, but no rule that says the spaces have to be big enough to take anything larger than a Smart Car...

          1. x 7

            Re: Also Parent and Child bays

            " no rule that says the spaces have to be big enough to take anything larger than a Smart Car..."

            take a hint: if your car is too big for the parking space, all it means is that you are a spoilt wasteful fuel guzzling brat who has no cares for the environment or your fellow man. Your car should be taxed to the maximum, with a view to forcing you to downsize to something more economical and ecologically friendly

            1. d3vy

              Re: Also Parent and Child bays

              "If your car is too big for the parking space, all it means is that you are a spoilt wasteful fuel guzzling brat who has no cares for the environment"

              I'm viewing with the mobile I terface so don't know if there is a joke icon... But I hope there is.

              My car nearly fits width ways in some newer shops spaces (they seem to be getting smaller)

              My car is a 1.5 liter hatch back with emissions so low I don't pay VED on it. It does however have quite large doors.

              As does the wife's a1, a miniscule car by current standards but still quite tight in some spaces.

              And these are both 4 t door hatch backs... I can only imagine the issues people have with the 3 door ones (generally the doors are longer) when they have people in the back.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Also Parent and Child bays

              My car is the width of a normal car but gets 14 miles to the gallon.

        6. d3vy

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          I really can't see the need for parent and child spaces at all and certainly not nearer than the disabled spaces which are often used by people who can only walk very short distances.

          Push chairs.

          Removable baby car seats.

          Though the distance isn't normally an issue, I suspect that the fact they are normally nearer a building ispre to do with the limited space next to the buidling for parking and the need to have fewer p&c spaces.

          Allowing the shop to keep a large block of disabled bays together and a small block of p&c together rather than spreading them all over the place.

          That's two reasons right there.

          Then again have you ever seen a todler open a car door? I wouldn't park next to my car in a normal sized space...

        7. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: Also Parent and Child bays

          I really can't see the need for parent and child spaces at all and certainly not nearer than the disabled spaces which are often used by people who can only walk very short distances.

          I do have some sympathy with your point of view, but that's only because when my children were babies and for reasons best known to them they didn't sleep, so we got into the habit of doing the shopping at night (if you're going to be awake then might as well do something useful) and at those times we would typically park right next to the supermarket's doors and straddling parking spaces (my partner nearly always occupied 6 normal bays).

          However, it did irritate me that a baby~toddler actually satisfies the disabled criteria for having a blue badge, but were excluded (ageism!).

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Also Parent and Child bays

            However, it did irritate me that a baby~toddler actually satisfies the disabled criteria for having a blue badge, but were excluded (ageism!).

            Babies/toddlers can be strapped into a lightweight device called a stroller. Ageing parents OTOH have a sort of motorised equivalent that they can control themselves called an electric scooter. My mother was not merely unable to walk very far, she couldn't see very far either. It was amusing to see the look of terror on people's faces at her local shopping mall when she arrived.

            Ageism? If you felt so strongly maybe you should have purchased electric scooters for your toddlers ;-)

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: Also Parent and Child bays

              Ageing parents OTOH have a sort of motorised equivalent that they can control themselves called an electric scooter. My mother was not merely unable to walk very far, she couldn't see very far either. It was amusing to see the look of terror on people's faces at her local shopping mall when she arrived.

              I think you are being very generous when you use the phrase 'control themselves', in my experience many, due to the normal issues associated with ageing have only basic control of their scooter and don't appreciate this fact, hence whilst normal pedestrians tend to take active avoidance actions, scooter users don't and hence end up in all sorts of predicaments that require assistance to get them out - the main problems being they are unable to reverse and only have full on or off throttle control...

              To me Google et al are wasting time on driverless car's they should be addressing the here and now market of driverless mobility scooters..

              Babies/toddlers My issue was when forced to use normal car parking and hence having to juggle the unloading/loading of babies and/or toddlers, their buggy and essentials bag (plus any shopping on exit) with the parking of a car in a tight parking space when there is only one adult; whilst in full view of rows of empty disabled parking spaces. Obviously, when there was two adults in the car, we would simply stopped randomly across the vacant disabled bays, unload/load and then park the car, often in full view of cctv and/or car parking wardens (just smile and wave, because it's surprising just how much a parent struggling with a baby and/or toddler can get away with).

              As for electric scooters, well nice idea, however, I know who will be carrying them and a tired child back to the car... ;-)

    5. Velv
      Childcatcher

      Re: Also Parent and Child bays

      My Mother has difficulty walking, and would probably be considered for a blue badge if she applied. She hasn't, as she doesn't consider herself disabled.

      Perhaps however when I take her to the shops I'd be eligible to use the Parent and Child slot, as she does need help and supervision?

    6. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Also Parent and Child bays

      is there some kind of ratio they need to stick to with regards to total number of bays and percentage of disabled?

      For disabled - yes - determined by local council planning committee.

      So if you want to offer a total of X spaces you have no choice but to offer Y disabled spaces. There are councils, especially in London which have the ratio set to a very high number because of the short supply of on-street parking and hence the requirement to provision sufficient on-street disabled bays. Due to the well known fact that brains and local planning law do not mix, the idiots in the council planning dept still apply the same ratio to a shopping center or supermarket regardless of the fact that it will result in a massively under-used disabled section.

      Parent & Child, loading bays, etc are "courtesy" of the retailer. AFAIK there is no planning guidance requiring those.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Also Parent and Child bays

      My local Asda has dozens of Disabled bays, literally the WHOLE of the ground floor is disabled bays, bar a single row of 5 "Mother and baby" spaces (isnt that sexist? What about Father and Baby).

      Anyhow, I never get to use one because they are always filled by (usually fraudulent*), disabled badge holders; who get gooby/shouty when you point out it isnt a disabled space.

      *Being 200KG doesnt make you disabled.

      Neither does being a woman

      Neither does having 2 dozen** fat teenage kids squashed into a Corsa.

      And claiming you cant walk more than a few feet, while bustling along with FOUR huge bags of shopping (2 per hand), doesnt help your cause.

      **If I've told myself once, I've told myself a hundred billion times not to exaggerate; so OK, it was 4 fat teenage girls.

    8. Terry Barnes

      Re: Also Parent and Child bays

      Parent and child bays are really intended for babies in car seats. It's very hard to get a car seat out without opening the door as wide as it will go and many older car parks have a problem with that as cars are wider and bigger than they used to be. The extra space allows the door to be fully opened and the right trolley to be lined up next to it.

      Disabled space provision is based on local planning requirements, but there should be a link into the proportion of the local population who are likely to need them.

      Personally, as the dad of a wheelchair user, I think there need to be some specific wheelchair spaces. I understand that older people with mobility problems might legitimately need to park closer whereas I'm not much concerned about closeness, but I do need enough room to open the hatch, lower the ramp and wheel my kid out without mixing it with people trying to park. It can be a 5 - 10 minute job to deal with all the chair restraints and belts and things.

      We usually now park in the less-used more distant car park at our shopping centre because all the spaces that we could use without bringing the car park to a halt for ten minutes are generally taken up by older people. My child's needs are different to their's.

  6. Timmy B

    A great idea actually - if implemented right.

    If they actually use this to stop misuse of disabled spaces then this is great. I look after two elderly disabled relatives with very limited mobility and depend on these spaces at hospitals, doctors, etc. I have often had to get people to move from spaces who had no right to be there.

    Though the biggest misuse is a relative using a blue badge when the person that it is for is not with them. I don't see how this can be stopped as they blue badge will be in date and on display and the car will be in a disabled space.

    Why can't people just be decent and realise that some people depend on these places and if you don't depend on them don't use them?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A great idea actually - if implemented right.

      Decency and common sense are often left outside when people enter a car. My drive to and from work is usually the most stressful part of my day and even though it's only twenty minutes each way it rarley passes without incident. This morning an idiot attempted a U turn in front of a no U turn sign and no more than twenty metres from a roundabout. Attempted because the road wasn't wide enough for them and it turned into a three point turn. Oh, and this was on the exit from the an autoroute so those coming at high speed from behind got a shock Another thing I see every day is people cutting the corner of a roundabout so they don't have to go all the way round. As idiots does as idiot sees there are moe people doing this each day.

      Back on topic, don't fine people mis-using parking bays for the disabled, give them a reason, break their legs, then take the badge away.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A great idea actually - if implemented right.

        I'm living abroad at the moment but here the badges have got photos on them so it's easy to see if the disabled person is using them or not. Is that not the case in the UK?

        1. James 51

          Re: A great idea actually - if implemented right.

          Yes it is.

        2. Timmy B

          Re: A great idea actually - if implemented right.

          "I'm living abroad at the moment but here the badges have got photos on them so it's easy to see if the disabled person is using them or not. Is that not the case in the UK?"

          They do but the excuse often given is "I've just dropped them off" or "I'm waiting for them to come back".

    2. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: A great idea actually - if implemented right.

      Most people are decent, and most people do respect the needs of the disabled. There for the grace of god etc.

      But when the minority of inconsiderate and selfish people do abuse things, then we always notice and it makes the problem appear worse than it really is.

  7. PapaD

    My dad

    Is disabled, and can't walk more than 10 ft without help - so I get very annoyed when I see people without a blue badge using disabled spaces, as my dad has often ended up in a situation where he can't find a disabled spot to park in. My dad's a proud man though, and will still make the attempt even though he has to walk a lot further now to get to the store (if he is lucky, and its a big enough supermarket, I will be able to get a disabled scooter on his behalf, and take it out to the car) - otherwise its a painful struggle, even with me or my mum helping him.

    If they have a blue badge and appear to not be disabled, I don't tend to worry about them (you can't always see the problem) - its just the people using disabled spaces without a blue badge that I feel need to be looked at by the police.

  8. phuzz Silver badge
    Pirate

    The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a disabled parking permit is a good guy with a disabled parking permit.

    1. James 51

      Even the bad guy with the permit is entitled to use them. It's not having the permit that's the issue.

      1. TRT Silver badge

        003.5 Licensed to park... with extreme prejudice.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Police Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon's Schutzstaffel.

    Sturgeon and Stewie, Salmond and Sturgeon, it just keeps popping up doesn't it.

  10. SharkNose

    Parent and child spaces are an excellent idea

    I frequently accompany my 74 yr old mother (I am 38) so that we can park in the parent and child spaces.

    Parent and infant spaces on the other hand, I can see the need for, maybe...

  11. CCCP

    Sledgehammer, meet nut

    At least, if the rozzers have nothing better to do than to check blue badges, then it seems crime has largely been eradicated. At least in Scotland.

    As others have pointed out, it's the dickheads without badges that's the problem. And that is not a concern for the law, it's common decency. So an "oi, what do you think you're doing?", from the rest of us is what it takes.

    1. paulc

      Re: Sledgehammer, meet nut

      " So an "oi, what do you think you're doing?", from the rest of us is what it takes."

      and you're quite likely to get your face remodeled...

      1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

        Re: Sledgehammer, meet nut

        See, that's the *wrong* approach. Asking politely if they require any assistance getting into the car might embarrass a badhat, and possibly aid a genuine user.

        Navigating my disabled father in and out of his car and into the wheelchair is an interesting exercise at the best of times; doing it when some inconsiderate lout has misappropriated a disabled parking space can be an exercise in frustration.

    2. d3vy

      Re: Sledgehammer, meet nut

      You're one of those "why are we funding x when we still have cancer" people arnt you?

      Clue. They can do both.

      Generally traffic police deal with traffic offences (and misuse of a blue badge is a criminal offence) where the normal police deal with other matters (the clue really is in the name)

      Or would you rather that they just stopped dealing with small crimes and focused only on the big ones?

      Where do you draw the line?

      Parking offences?

      Petty robbery <£50

      Mugging?

      Attempted murder (after all, its not like anyone died).

      Stop being a dick. They have to respond to all crimes, that response might just be to log it and give you an incident number.. But in situations like this where the investigation can be sped up to take minutes and the gain for disabled people is sufficiently high.. Of course they should do this.

  12. WonkoTheSane
    Mushroom

    Happens everywhere...

    I once got an earful at the local supermarket because I complained to a builder who had parked his van across TWO disabled bays near the door to the shop.

    This was WHILE I was pushing my wheelchair-bound mother to the far end of the carpark where I'd had to park, even though we HAD a valid blue badge!

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    All part of the YeSNP's plans!

    To turn iScotland into a police state with the jackboot of national socialism on the throat of everyone not a member of The Party.

  14. Craigie

    Simple solution. If they're not disabled when they park, make them disabled before they drive away again.

    1. Boothy

      Shame you can't just put a notice up stating it's open season on all none blue badged cars found in a disabled space.

      Follow this up with a sign from the local police, stating that damage done to illegally parked cars, will not be considered as criminal damage, and therefore cannot be reported to them as a crime.

      This would also mean no crime number, so insurance companies would likely not pay out for the damages without it removing any no claims etc.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        *non

        The e is not needed.

        1. AC Wilson

          The e is not needed

          Could I hav it thn, I'm somtims short on thm...

  15. Reg Torso
    Flame

    Sorry, rant warning...

    As a long time victim^H^H^H^H^H^H user of the blue badge scheme for one of our children I can agree that it is pretty badly broken and abused. As others have said, designated parking bays get abused by people with genuine badges who are not entitled to use them, dodgy characters with fake badges (I’ve seen a few, just get a colour copy and a laminator, and you can’t tell the difference through a windscreen unless you know what a real one looks like, which only genuine holders seem to be able to do), and the just plainly brazen gits who park in a disabled bay with no badge because they will “only be 5 minutes” or because it’s after 6.30, so disabled people won’t be out that late will they, and anyway everyone’s doing it and there’s nobody to check at this time of day.

    The effect is that genuine holders are suspected and resented and ‘socially policed’. Being asked ‘are you disabled’ is fine - I ask other users if they are and am polite and honest when I am asked. To be told “oi, you’re not disabled” – well, things get nasty, and I give worse than I get.

    Some other gripes:

    Only being entitled to use a disabled badge and park without charge if you use a marked bay. If all the marked bays are taken, you have to pay, despite having a blue badge. Sorry, it’s too crowded for you to be disabled today, we’re already up to quota.

    The bureaucracy to get and retain blue badge is flaky and sloooowwww. In our local authority getting a renewal has to be planned months in advance and chased up to prevent it from stalling or getting lost.

    And a special mention for the arrangements at a well known hospital (think Jimmy Saville) where the ‘car park’ is a partially unsurfaced bomb site and the disabled bays are further from the building than the normal bays. You can park without charge, but to get out of the place on a free ticket you have to take your blue badge to the parking admin desk on the other side of the site (reminder: blue badges are for disabled people) and yet somehow simultaneously display it on your vehicle at all times. “Yes, we know it’s crazy, but there’s nothing we can do”.

  16. Zimmer

    And the need for access to the database is...?

    Sorry, I cannot see the need for them to have any access to this database, unless they are concerned the badge is a FAKE. The badges supplied to my mother contain an expiry date and photo...

    The rest of the moans and complaints here (like every forum on this topic) relate to misuse by those WITHOUT a badge , or using a badge without the presence of the badge-holder; instances where the police could easily ascertain the validity of use... (you do not know if it is invalid use until the owner/occupants return to the vehicle).

    Thin end of a 'database access' wedge if ever I saw one....

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: And the need for access to the database is...?

      They are keen on their databases in Scotland, and what's more they seem to be able to get them to work.

  17. x 7

    the problem as I see it is lazy dozy twats who use possession of a blue badge as carte blanche permission to abandon their cars on any double yellow lines they fancy, creating dangerous driving hazards by blocking routes and sightlines. Round here the same useless wankers think its fine for themselves to drive into pedestrian precincts - which are supposedly traffic free.

    Face it, many (most?) holders of blue badges are too old to be safely driving and should have been kicked off the road years ago when their eyesight and reactions began to fade. If someone's legs aren't up to walking, its a good bet they're not up to pushing a brake peddle in time in an emergency.

    The whole blue badge scheme should be abandoned - or at least severely curtailed. The "park the car anywhere" attitude needs to go - it should be designated parking spaces only (and paid for, not free). Parking on yellow lines should be banned. Parking / driving in pedestrian zones should be banned. And regular checks should be carried out to show the holder is actually capable of driving. If they can't, then no card.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      You seem to be a bit confused as to exactly where a blue badge lets you park. And as for the rest, why not just implement the Logan's Run solution?

      1. x 7

        "You seem to be a bit confused as to exactly where a blue badge lets you park. "

        If I am confused, it is only because the people I see using those badges must be abusing them by parking in "no parking" zones such as on yellow lines and pedestrian precincts. Are you telling me such acts are not allowed? If so then next time I'll happily bollox the badge holder with a clear conscience. Prats who park like that are a danger to themselves and others.

    2. Terry Barnes

      You stupid wanker.

      My disabled child is 5. Probably too young to drive.

      We use the blue badge because powerchairs for young disabled people don't go very fast or very far, and we have many and varied appointments to attend, often in town centres. Should we miss an appointment with a consultant we've been waiting for months for because the one designated space in town is both occupied and not big enough to open a ramp in?

      Parking on yellow lines isn't an attitude - it's the law. There are clear rules and we follow them. Even if we could afford to waste half an hour trying to get into a multi-storey we often find that the wheelchair adapted vehicle we have is too tall to fit in many car parks and the disabled spaces don't allow for getting the chair out via the ramp without blocking the whole car park or damaging other cars.

      If your attitude is that everyone else on their road and their behaviours are the problem, the thing that is common to all of that is you and your perception.

      1. x 7

        "Parking on yellow lines isn't an attitude - it's the law."

        I don't know your specific case and I'm not going to indulge in personal attacks against you here.

        However in my experience, parking on yellow lines very much IS an attitude - an attitude of "bugger you, I'm entitled". Round here we get idiots parking on main arterial routes in town centres causing severe hazards, or on blind bends, or in front of emergency exit doors. Not because they need to, but simply because they can.

        And who are these people? Fat lazy feckers who are too tired to walk because they're obese. Scamming the system is their way of life: scamming the dole, scamming child support, scamming housing benefit, scamming the medical system, and avoiding car parking charges by scamming the blue card system. There seem to be ten of those for every real disabled person out there

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        ""Parking on yellow lines isn't an attitude - it's the law."

        I have no problem paying £40-£100 for a days parking in the middle of a city and usually just ignore the yellow lines. It's in general heaper than my time spent screwing around for a legitimate space and then traveling to / from where I actually need to be. I avoid using disabled spaces though.

  18. Anonymous John

    Someone I once knew was often challenged about his lack of a visible disability. His response was to unbutton his shirt to reveal the big FO corset and ask of he would like to have to wear it 24/7..

  19. Dan McIntyre

    A blue badge allows the holder to park on double yellow lines AS LONG AS THEY AREN'T CAUSING AN OBSTRUCTION for up to 3 hours.

    As for the rest of your statement, it is pure nonsense. There are many people who don't have hands and feet, or missing legs or arms etc, who are perfectly capable of driving and are more than likely much better, safer drivers than people with no disabilities. Ever heard of adaptations?

    1. x 7

      "A blue badge allows the holder to park on double yellow lines AS LONG AS THEY AREN'T CAUSING AN OBSTRUCTION for up to 3 hours"

      well thats just simple stupidity.........for the simple reason that by definition if you park on double yellow lines you ARE causing an obstruction. Thats what the lines are there for........And parking on them should be banned.

      As for car modifications- thats something much talked about, never seen. If the car was suitably adapted then maybe you have a point. However most aren't - and you don't (have a valid point)

  20. MrTuK

    Blue Badge

    Hmmm as a disabled person from a young age with joint issues and never wanted to apply for the Blue badge as although the doctor insisted for many years that I should apply I understand people's misconceptions. The Blue badge is only given out with proof that you have an issue that a Blue badge will possibly alleviate sometime the massive inconvenience of doing what regular people take for granted.

    Now for myself I have good (what I call good), average, bad and very bad days with my joints, what people don't understand is the fact that although I may look like I am just walking with a slight limp, when I get home I might have to go to bed because the pain can turn to excruciating pain like a flick of a switch whereas 10 mins before I almost looked able bodied !

    So just because someone doesn't look like they are disabled, it doesn't mean they are not ! Also my disability does just cover the knee's and ankles which be obvious if I had difficulty but also my hips (of which one has been totally replaced) but also my wrist, shoulders, fingers etc !

    So even though I can walk with maybe a slight limp on good days unless I park in a disabled bay I cannot get out of my mom's car due to the angle my hip will not go, funny thing was just after my Hip Operation people never queried me as I used a walking stick, but after a while the doctor advised me to not use the stick any more so as to give my body chance to strengthen its muscles and only use it on exceptionally bad day, I understood this and agreed but no sooner had I done this that the sarcy comments and comments like "Are you sure you are disabled mate cos that is a disabled bay" this does make you feel a fraud on good days ( maybe 10 a year) but a good day can so quickly become a bad day. And before anyone asks the question yes it does seem that my joints are effected by the weather and everyone knows how quick that changes here in the UK.

    So finally just because someone is using a disabled and looks like they are fit and healthy, it does not mean that they are. If the photo on the Blue Badge matches the person in or driving the car then they are entitled to use the disabled bays. I personally think the Blue Badge's should have the Photo on the front rather than hidden on the back !

  21. Richard Altmann

    The world

    must be a good place if the cops don´t have anything else to care about.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The world

      "must be a good place if the cops don´t have anything else to care about."

      Or there is nothing worth stealing...

  22. Asterix the Gaul

    George OSBORNE has 'froze' disability payment increases for this year,as a result the topic will soon be academic,as no disabled person is likely to afford any car.

    This leads me to recall that OSBORNE said that the new system of PIP will mean that,those in most need,will benefit as a result.

    On that particular point,I will call out OSBORNE as a liar,because anyone on the DLA\PIP reasessment,who passes the eligibility test,WILL STILL BE ON THE CURRENT RATE,NOW FROZEN

    & the new PIP 'test' was meant to eliminate those NOT in the most need.

    So much for people believing the LIARS,just how 'naive' can people get?

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