back to article Brussels' antitrust boss not budging on planned Google competition deal

Brussels' antitrust chief Joaquin Almunia is refusing to reverse the planned settlement deal he has agreed with Google over the company's alleged abuse of its dominant market position on search. His seemingly stubborn refusal to change direction on the proposed agreement was highlighted this week during secret, two-hour-long …

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  1. pacman7de

    Secret operational note ..

    "Brussels' antitrust chief Joaquin Almunia .. seemingly stubborn refusal to change direction on the proposed agreement was highlighted this week during secret, two-hour-long talks with 12 MEPs in Strasbourg on Tuesday .. In a confidential operational note shared with MEPs by the European Commission, and seen by The Register"

    This comes straight from the Microsoft playbook. If you can't win, then get the decision reversed. If you can't get the decision reversed then leak confidential documents, question the integrity of the adjudicator and call for his removal ..

    "Complainants in the case, including UK-based price comparison website Foundem" [ a member of ICOMP largly funded by Microsoft].

    "If the Commission were to adopt these proposals, Google would gain sole possession of the free, natural search traffic that has hitherto fuelled the internet revolution"

    Tell me how in any way am I compelled to use Google Search?

    1. RyokuMas
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Secret operational note ..

      "Tell me how in any way am I compelled to use Google Search?"

      But it's not just Google search. It's Google analytics - pretty much a "must-have" for any company that wants to maintain its presence on Google's search rankings. Yes, those of us with the technical know-how can block this. But the average person on the street, who may now choose not to use Google search, is still likely to unwittingly be transmitting data to Google - even more so if they have an Android-based phone.

      Without technical knowledge that the vast majority of people do not currently have, it's almost impossible to use the web and not have Google watching over your shoulder. This attitude flies directly in the face of the "do no evil" mantra, and Google have the power to be a lot more evil than Microsoft ever were. This is nothing to do with preference (personally, I dislike and distrust all large corporate bodies), it's simply a matter of scale - thanks to the rise of internet on mobile devices, Google can influence a lot more people.

      I used to think that the European Commission was simply a means for the fat cats to ensure they stay fat - now I'm wondering how much of it is a mechanism put in place by big business to ensure that national governments are hamstrung against them...

  2. SuccessCase

    We are all concerned over NSA spying. Well it seems to me Google has become more powerful than the NSA because users are "voluntarily" providing them with large volumes of data. Through search and advertising data they have a detailed breadcrumb trail of users' browsing habits. Through Google Maps on smartphones, which makes it appear as though log-in is required to access all the features (in fact it isn't but Google manage to make it feel like users are using it wrong if they don't log in) they have detailed tracking information (and can geographically map browsing habits too). Through Gmail they have access to vast swathes of Email correspondence and personal contact details, often including information relating to confidential competitor products and service (I know from running large projects, it is almost impossible to always prevent staff from mailing themselves and outside of projects using Gmail accounts). Through their download scanning service, they are even able to extract additional information about the contents of files users are downloading, refining their user profiles still further.

    I put "voluntarily" in quotes above, because once a business becomes big enough and a service widely used enough, it can become difficult to avoid and doing so can be quite an inconvenience. Users are driven by convenience, and the concessions given too and liberties taken by Google when outweighed by convenience become a kind of insipid cancer that permeates society.

    Google are now in a position where they can quite legally dig dirt, if not on every individual, on pretty much every family out there (yes I'm assuming most families have a few skeletons in the closet - and yes clearly this is a subjective statement, but equally whilst I don't think there can be statistics proving the average number of skeletons in the closet per family, agreement on the definition of what constitutes a skeleton or agreement on the definition of the boundaries of a single family - most people will agree with thrust of what I'm saying).

    I don't think it's healthy for any private enterprise to have such a privileged position. Power corrupts etc.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      @SuccessCase

      Microsoft are far more evil than Google. Microsoft are easily as corrupt as Google already, given them the all-pervading power that Google has and they will create a fucking distopia.

      Every one of these bastards wants to drag us down to hell. I choose the carriage with the most comfy seating, thank you.

  3. ratfox

    Interesting

    It is rare to see such a confrontation between a bureaucrat and politicians. On one hand, the politicians are supposed to make the rules; on the other hand, what's the point of having an expert conduct an investigation for three years, if you're going to dictate him what his decision should be, after listening to the impassioned pleas of the opponents?

    Anything that involves Google becomes a political affair these days…

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    lets see..

    If I go to the Ford website.. I should expect Holden/GM/Opel to have equal representation?

    If I go to the coke website, Pepsi should have equal footing? What madness is this?

    In the later example Coke is the 800 pound gorilla.. so shouldn't they advertise Pepsi too?

    this is nuts.. nobody ever gets forced to go to Google.. they choose to... why are we making out that they are an anticompetitive monopoly?

    1. MonkeyScrabble

      Re: lets see..

      If I go to a search engine (any search engine) should I not get a fair and impartial return to my query?

      If google wants to do search they should do so fairly.

      Google are being picked on because they are overwhelmingly dominant.

      The phrase "to google" something means to run a websearch. If they were the size of duckduckgo, they wouldn't be investigated, the same way MS were hit for dominance but crapple weren't.

      If google won't be fair in search, they need to be forced to.

      Anit-competition laws exist for this exact prupose.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: lets see..

        "If I go to a search engine (any search engine) should I not get a fair and impartial return to my query?"

        No. They're a commercial search engine. Not a public one. They aren't a library. They aren't journalists. They are a business. Why should it be fair and impartial? According to which ethical logic?

    2. RyokuMas

      Re: lets see..

      @AC "let's see" :"nobody ever gets forced to go to Google"

      Get a new computer or tablet and fire up a web browser, or download one from the web. Fire up the built-in search bar, or even simply type something that isn't a url into the address bar. What's the search engine that gets fired up?

      (hint - it's Google)

      Go to the website of virtually any major company and view the source. Find the section that provides tracking and analytics information scripts. What's the one that's always there?

      (hint - it's Google)

      Your analogies are ridiculous. Nobody ever got forced to go with Internet Explorer back in the browser wars - or even to use Windows - yet there was still the huge antitrust case of "oh, Microsoft are forcing us to use IE". Wrong. It was just what the computer was bundled with, and there was no mention made of the fact that other browsers were available.

      ... sounding familiar yet?

      Moreover, the Ford/Coke analogies fall down in that Ford only want to sell cars. Coke only want to sell soft drinks. On the other hand, Google want to tell us what to buy (advertising), where to buy it (search), and that they can provide it cheaper (wallet). They want to know about every aspect of our lives (analytics), who we talk to (gmail, android), what we watch (youtube), where we are and where we go(maps, streetview) and even the things we see (glass).

      If Ford wanted to know the details of every journey I made, or Coke wanted to know every shop I personally bought a can of drink at, I'd be worried about that.

      Codeplex had a link to a good article on this - a bit tongue in cheek perhaps, but still backed up by various sources.

      1. roselan

        Re: lets see..

        (hint - it's yahoo on linux mint)

        not that 0.72% market shares maters thou.

      2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: lets see..

        Get a new computer or tablet and fire up a web browser, or download one from the web. Fire up the built-in search bar, or even simply type something that isn't a url into the address bar. What's the search engine that gets fired up?

        It's Bing. Just tested five computers from three different manufacturers. The very first thing I do is change it to Google because Bing is a fucking nightmare of traumatizing awfulness.

        Go to the website of virtually any major company and view the source. Find the section that provides tracking and analytics information scripts. What's the one that's always there?

        Yup. Google Analytics. But fuck you in the brain with a rototiller if you are going to tell me that companies are somehow forced to use Google analytics. Doing so takes effort. It's not a default. Google offer the best service, period.

        If Ford wanted to know the details of every journey I made, or Coke wanted to know every shop I personally bought a can of drink at, I'd be worried about that.

        Ford do want to know the details of every journey you make and Coke do want to know every shop you personally bought a can of drink at. Welcome to the 21st century. Your precious Microsoft is just as fucking guilty as Google. They are merely less capable than Google. They make shittier products, people trust them less and website administrators don't find as much value from their tracking packages.

        Cope.

  5. Eguro

    "Those were a good 3 years getting courted by you Google. My term is about to end, but don't worry I'll make sure to strong arm whatever 'concessions' we agreed on through before I leave. See you in a year for my job interview"

    And here I was thinking Almunia might just actually be one of the... not so bad guys.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Almunia is one of the not so bad guys. He has rightly determined that Google is less ass than Microsoft. Trading in a company that is anti-competitive in a manner which is beneficial to the consumer for one that is is horrifying wasteland and anti-consumer amorality isn't a bargain.

      Does Google promote it's offerings over the inferior offerings of others? Yes. Would Microsoft do any different? Fuck no. Does Google track us in a creepy fashion? Yes. Does Microsoft? Yes. Would Microsoft with the market share of Google be as bad as Google? They'd be 10,000 times worse.

      Google spies on you in order to make money to deliver you things you want so they can spy on your more.

      Microsoft spies on you in order to make money to increase shareholder dividends. Then they make shit you don't want, hold a gun to your head and say "upgrade or die."

      Only one of these two will hold the majority of the English-speaking search market. I know which one I prefer.

      1. Eguro

        "Google spies on you in order to make money to deliver you things you want so they can spy on your more."

        This seems like it might be painting Google with too positive a brush.

        Now I'm not saying I prefer Microsoft - by no means.

        However I would reject that "[o]nly one of these two will hold the majority of the English-speaking search market". How about neither? A third player? Several more specialized search engines - perhaps through a central search engine that'll be forced to link through the specialized search engines that it's ripping its results from... I don't just speculation of course.

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          This seems like it might be painting Google with too positive a brush."

          Then you are either unaware of my feelings towards Google or you are so unrepentantly biased against them that is no brush too negative with which another person can paint them.

          Now I'm not saying I prefer Microsoft - by no means.

          However I would reject that "[o]nly one of these two will hold the majority of the English-speaking search market".

          Reality does not require your acceptance.

          How about neither? A third player?

          Not going to happen in the next 10 years. Do you even begin to comprehend the barriers to entry in the global search market? The insane amount of intellectual property that goes into the algorithms? Not just ranking, but efficiently indexing, retrieving, geolocating, etc? That's before we even touch upon the infrastructure required to run such a thing.

          I would lay hard odds that even Amazon couldn't challenge Bing. To say nothing of Google.

          Several more specialized search engines - perhaps through a central search engine that'll be forced to link through the specialized search engines that it's ripping its results from... I don't just speculation of course.

          Same problem. A specialized search engine is even harder than a generalized one. You're trying to find not just needles in the haystack, but needles of a certain texture. Even if you could get a bunch of companies to create these specialized search engines, why would you ever assume they wouldn't be complete ass when compared to Bing (let alone Google?)

          And who pays? How do these specialized search engines make money? Who is going to "force" a centralized search engine to link through others, and how does that search engine make money? No company is going to set about pissing away billions (and yes, we are talking billions to play the game today) on something that isn't ultimately profitable to them.

          Besides which, why the metric fuck would I accept some government forcing me to use a particular search engine? Why should I? What right does a government have to tell me what search provider I must use?

          If the government isn't forcing me to use a given search provider, why would I use anyone but the best of the best of the best? (Which is Google, hands down. Absolutely no contest.) If all rational decisions makers choose the best search engine (and probably a handful of irrational decision makers as well) then how does Google ever lose that monopoly unless someone comes along and is legitimately better?

          Being legitimately better has such a high barrier to entry...

          Look: you can't legislate people to use a given search engine. All you can do is make sure that a company with a natural monopoly is prevented from abusing it. In the case of Google, search is a loss leader so if you try to turn the knobs too much they'll just say "fuck you" and leave.

          At which point you've cut off your penis to inflate your ego because now you've either crippled your own economy by ensuring your people only have access to an inferior tool when compared to the rest of the world. If you get into a trade war pissing match with the multinational in question you end up creating a subversive culture where people will tunnel past your firewall to get access to the tool they actually want.

          More people using a search engine doesn't make that search engine better. Even if Microsoft won, got Google banned from doing any business whatsoever in Europe, that is absolutely not a victory for the citizens of Europe. Microsoft doesn't have the skills to go up against Google and provide a tool of equal value. Nobody else does either...though Baidu might get there in a few years.

          So what you get is functionally annihilating the internet economy in Europe so that one American corporation can evict another. How the hell does that serve Europeans?

          If you want a third party search engine, get 10 billion dollars together, get the best PhDs you can get, build the best search algorithms and infrastructure and maybe in 5 years you'll be where Google is today. If you can accreted enough users you might get enough revenue to compete with Google and maybe you overtake them.

          Google, however, won't stay still. And they have better PhDs than any you could buy. They have loyalty and the ability to continue to afford such loyalty. Most governments can't take Google on directly when it comes to internet R&D.

          This isn't me liking Google. I'm pretty convinced they're evil. (Though I believe they are less evil than Microsoft.) But I recognize reality. Google represent something that has never existed before in all of human history. They are the gatekeepers to all human knowledge. They are very nearly the gatekeepers to all human experience.

          More than mere money, Google have power. The power that comes from intimate knowledge, the power that comes from intelligence (detailed knowledge of the enemy), and the power that comes from religion (they have True Believers that number in the millions).

          Like it or not, Google are more powerful than most nations. They are not a force that can simply be legislated to come to heel. And they are not a force to be trifled with. They provide a very distinct, very real competitive advantage to those who use their technology and they know it.

          This is more than simply a wish list of wanting something for nothing from some yankee corporation. This is the game of thrones, and if Europe moves to smite Google the consequences will be very, very real.

          Alumia knows that. His decision was the right one, given the circumstances. That isn't me "being kind to Google", that's just accepting that knowledge = power, and Google knows fucking everything.

  6. Morrie Wyatt
    Big Brother

    Do we assume?

    The settlement also obligates the competing search engines to clearly show Google search entries in their results?

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Too powerful....

    Trevor, you said:

    Google represent something that has never existed before in all of human history. They are the gatekeepers to all human knowledge. They are very nearly the gatekeepers to all human experience.

    More than mere money, Google have power.

    This, all by itself, is why Google needs to be curtailed.

    What happens when Google search begins to deprioritise every page which doesn't have Google Analytics on it? When they hide information of divergent or dissenting voices? When they alter history by suppressing all alternate accounts? Have you read Orwell's 1984?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Themes

    If corporations cannot oppose Google, and nation states choose not to, then how is this dystopian conclusion to be avoided?

    Seems to me that the correct approach to take with Google is via existing "anti-dumping" laws or other restraints on selling products below cost. "Search" is the loss leader, with predatory pricing, which has forced out almost all competitors in the online advertising space.

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