back to article 'Look, give us Snowden' - this Friday's top US-Russia talks revealed

America will hold high-level talks on political and military teamwork with Russia this Friday - despite the latter country's offer of temporary asylum to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. US Secretary of State John Kerry and Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel are due to meet their Russian counterparts in Washington to discuss " …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Look, just give us Snowden

    sure, no problem, just give us Bout

    1. Scorchio!!

      Re: Look, just give us Snowden

      "sure, no problem, just give us Bout"

      No comparison, Bout is an arms dealer responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions. Of course, if you wish to compare Snowden with him you'll have to run hard - apart from the fact that Snowden has effectively attacked his own government - inasmuch that Snowden has ethical pretensions, and Bout doesn't give a fuck. Perhaps, in the final axiological analysis, nothing really matters it's merely a game of claiming that things matter. Your choice. Quite literally and axiologically.

      1. xperroni
        Holmes

        Re: Look, just give us Snowden

        No comparison, Bout is an arms dealer responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions.

        You missed the point. The US government invokes international law when it suits their needs, when it doesn't they don't break a sweat over it.

        That they seem so hurt over Russia not giving away Snowden, when they themselves have protected far worse people, only makes their hypocrisy more glaring.

        1. praos

          Re: Look, just give us Snowden

          In this case US invoke no law, but resolutely demand that Mr President Putin brazenly break it, for all the word to see. But these are Russian laws anyway, so who cares...

      2. FredBloggsY
        Meh

        Re: Look, just give us Snowden

        "Snowden has effectively attacked his own government"

        Defended his fellow citizens and country?

      3. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Look, just give us Snowden

        > possibly millions

        Oh drama.

        Can't be. He hasn't got a medal yet.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Look, just give us Snowden

        Do you mean like the US military complex that includes handgun manufacturers that KILL thousands and possibly millions of innocent people every year? You know those 'little incidents' like Colombine and Sandy Hook.

        At least Bout doesn't sell handguns inside the US... we do.

  2. wowfood

    "We would like to see Mr Snowden returned to the United States. I don’t know technically what that requires, but we know they have the capability to do that," she said.

    Actually I'm pretty sure now that they've granted him temporary asylum they can't. I mean isn't the whole idea of asylum that they're granted protection from this sort of thing? Surely changing their minds afterwards would break some kind of UN protocol (they always have a protocol)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I'm not an expert on geo-politics in anyway, but doesn't the US tend to ignore the UN when it suits?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I think the way it goes is Asylum is granted where somebody fears persecution. Assuming the US can convince Russia that this isn't the case this could be withdrawn

        1. hplasm
          Devil

          "Assuming the US can convince Russia that this isn't the case..."

          Ah, now- there's the rub...

        2. MilesN

          No. Article 12, section 4 of the Russian Federal law # 4528-1 of 19/02/1993 "On refugees" states: "A person who has been granted temporary asylum can not be returned against his will to the country of his nationality ( or country of his usual residence). Snowden has been granted temporary asylum under this law, so...

          1. Rampant Spaniel

            So all they need to do to get around that is revoke his nationality and give Hawai'i it's sovereignty back. That or just slip some polonium 210 in his tea. The ruskies will love that.

      2. g e
        Holmes

        Just a bit, plus...

        When it's a UN vote like 100 in favour, 30 against plus abstainers and the US is in the 100 it's a Great Day For Democracy(tm)

        When it's something else which gets like 154 against, 1 for (yeah guess who) then it's more like 'very disappointed that good sense was cast aside (P.S. we'll do what the fuck we like anyway)'

        I refer the honourable reader thusly: http://bit.ly/1cJ3ZYc (Google books page extract via bitly)

        In fact start on the previous page, 86.

      3. Rampant Spaniel

        Actually the USA tends to ignore the UN on principal. There was a case recently when they (the senate I believe) refused to ratify a UN convention on disabled rights. The stunning thing was the US had already met all the conditions 20 years ago. So basically it was nothing more than acknowleding what was already law. The real issue was elements of the senate see it as ceding authority to the UN. It views the UN as a tool, not an equal or higher power, and to cede power would be to acknowledge it was a higher power. Depending on what area of government, the US will not acknowledge any higher power than the federal or state government, at least in recent times.

        Rightly or wrongly, that is how it is :-)

        1. Tom 38
          Headmaster

          Rightly or wrongly, that is how it is :-)

          Get your memes in order, this isn't TDWTF. Definitely no Vice President's daughter here pal.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Dear United States of America

    When an American has to go to RUSSIA to be free and escape a rabid government persecution bordering on a mob witch burning, maybe that's the time to reflect and ask yourself 'Gee, is this really the path I want to take?'"

    Hugs and kisses.

    The rest of the civilized world.

    1. auburnman

      Re: Dear United States of America

      That's exactly why Russia won't give him up unless America somehow promises them the moon on a stick: a yank requesting asylum from Russia is a MASSIVE PR coup.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Stop

        Re: Dear United States of America

        Mr Putin described him as 'an unwanted gift' not quite the sort of phrase usually used to describe a PR coup,

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Dear United States of America

          That's diplo speak for "Woohoo we have someone with intimate knowledge of the NSA" but need to be seen to begrudgingly take him in.

          In reality, I bet he is being debriefed extensively by the Russians right now.

        2. auburnman
          Go

          Re: Dear United States of America

          Unwanted <> having no value. If I received a Bugatti Veyron tomorrow, it would be an unwanted gift. I could still definitely turn it to my advantage (Even second hand, I'm sure I could sell it and buy a pretty nice house with the proceeds.)

    2. Gordon 10
      Meh

      Re: Dear United States of America

      In fairness, until the non-stop anti-snowden propaganda changes their minds for them - even half of the US think he was more right than wrong.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dear United States of America

      No shit,

      There was a time when ballerinas and KGB colonels used to defect to the US for a better life. Gave the US some moral high-ground to stand on and a nice rep for TJATAW too, Now it looks like the Russkis are getting a little payback. I'm surprised they aren't riding this whole thing harder.

      WTF happened? Has whistle-blowing, forum chatting and leaking become the only form of civil disobedience left ? How long before that's gone too?

  4. The Man Himself Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    take him out

    The Russians have previously demonstrated that they can get someone into a foreign country to perform an assassination on someone they find troublesome...I'm slightly surprised that the Americans haven't tried something similar with Snowden

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: take him out

      How do you know they haven't tried?

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: take him out

        >How do you know they haven't tried?

        Because a mountain in N Wales hasn't been bombed by mistake

      2. hplasm
        Black Helicopters

        Re: take him out

        "How do you know they haven't tried?"

        There's been no embarassing cockup in the news...

      3. Scorchio!!

        Re: take him out

        "How do you know they haven't tried?"

        He's still alive and no squawking. Give it a little time. It takes a while to mount that sort of operation, especially in a police state.

        1. Mephistro
          Coat

          Re: take him out (@ Scorchio!!)

          "It takes a while to mount that sort of operation, especially in a police state."

          Yep, see how long it took them to kill Osama.

          Mmmhh... Ah, oops! You meant the Russians!...

        2. Dr. Mouse

          Re: take him out

          "Give it a little time. It takes a while to mount that sort of operation, especially in a police state."

          But he left the United States!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: take him out

      I'm not sure they would dare do that. It would start off a big change.

    3. Dr. Mouse

      Re: take him out

      No way, the American Government would never stoop to such...

      Hey, guys, what's that red dot?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Coat

        Re: take him out

        The drones are reportedly being withdrawn slowly from Pakistan and Afghanistan - I wonder where they will be going next ? :)

        1. ACx

          Re: take him out

          New York, Washington, Boston, Miami, San Francisco, Austin.......... The US gov fears Americans as much as it does foreigners.

    4. NukEvil
      Joke

      Re: take him out

      You know how I'd do it?

      Attach a sniper rifle to the X-37B minishuttle, and aim it in Russia's general direction. Maybe design bullets with heat shields so they don't burn up on reentry.

      All Snowden has to do is look up once and *bloop*.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: take him out

      The drones, the controlling AI's and trigger-operating flesh-bots are attuned to killing brown people on a background of sand, reconfiguring them to "white on green" carry a high risk of unintended consequences.

  5. Silviu C.

    It's ridiculous

    Don't these idiots have anything better to do?! Their country's economy is in shambles, they live off Chinese money yet they still they chase Snowden and poke around in Iran. Effin' douchebags.

  6. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Mushroom

    My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

    It's growing faster than the Ackermann function.

    I will magnanimously include the rest of the political caste and their assorted sycophants in press and think tanks into this.

    I hope some gigantic meteorite laden with cancer-causing chemicals but curiously exhibiting the form of an eagle coloured in blue, white and red flattens everything inside the Beltway.

    Then we can plant beautiful trees on top.

    1. NomNomNom

      Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

      "I hope some gigantic meteorite laden with"

      you said laden. The NSA will be watching you now.

      1. Peter Scott
        Black Helicopters

        Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

        @NomNomNom, you mentioned the "L" word twice! Do you hear the black choppers heading your way?

        Nice knowing you, wonder what Cuba is like today?

      2. g e
        Joke

        Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

        You should bin that comment now.

        Oh shit.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. ratfox
          Angel

          Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

          Can you counter the effect by talking about UNladen swallows?

          1. DropBear
            Joke

            Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

            Nope. Didn't we just agree that the US doesn't care much about the UN...?

        3. Mitoo Bobsworth
          Joke

          Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

          You say Osama, & I say Obama,

          You say 'more amour', & I say 'more armour'

          Osama, Obama,

          More amour, more armour,

          Oh, let's call the whole thing off!

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

        Try to let us know what its like in Gitmo

    2. Captain DaFt

      Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...

      Really? You fell for the hype and promises?

      Anyone that ignored that and looked at what the two did *before* they were groomed to run for POTUS would have found the only real differences between Obama and McCain was their stated political affiliation and skin tone.

    3. Mephistro
      Happy

      Re: My contempt and hate of everything Obama is growing...(@ Destroy All Monsters)

      "I hope some gigantic meteorite ..."

      Careful there! You could be accused of Astronomical Terrorism!. And then you would be charged with 'Intent to Commit Astronomical Terrorism', 'Possession of Astronomical Terrorism Paraphernalia', 'Astronomical Terrorism on Mondays', 'Astronomical Terrorism on Tuesdays', and so on, like Manning!

  7. This post has been deleted by its author

  8. Danny 5

    Bah!

    Wasn't it Obama himself who said whitleblowers should be protected and not procecuted? The US is a country of liars and backstabbers, who will only do the right thing, if it serves their purpose. The US like to point to other countries when it comes to human rights, but they themselves wipe their ass with human rights if they feel the need for it.

    I'm finding myself cheering for Rusia, though i must admit that has a strange taste to it.

    1. g e
      Coat

      Re: Bah!

      Imagine how much stranger it would taste to be cheering for the USA

    2. Annihilator
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Bah!

      "Wasn't it Obama himself who said whitleblowers should be protected and not procecuted?"

      Yup, so he's taken the ingenious* step of declaring him to not be a whistleblower and blame "cold war mentality" on the Russian's part, despite it being a cold war mentality that's led to the US spying on all and sundry.

      * ingenious by a 9-year-old's standards

    3. DrXym

      Re: Bah!

      I expect the line between whistleblower and blowing state secrets moves depending on who is doing the talking.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Bah!

        Ob Yes minister quote:

        That's another of those irregular verbs, isn't it?

        I give confidential press briefings;

        you leak;

        he's being charged under section 2A of the Official Secrets Act.

  9. Arachnoid
    Trollface

    America to get Snowdon

    Well it will in a few months when it get a lot cooler

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: America to get Snowdon

      It gets quite cold on the top of Snowdon (pun intended) in winter does it not?

      Yeah, I know.

    2. g e
      Coat

      Re: America to get Snowdon

      http://tmblr.co/ZebfAyrfjovr

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So in the end Obama did scramble jets to catch this "30 year-old hacker"

    It seems to itch more than he'd like the world to believe. And the Gardian warns there's still lots more to come...

  11. Version 1.0 Silver badge

    Show of hands please?

    Hands up anyone who thinks that the US would return a Russian who bolted to the USA and started revealing how the FSB (KGB as was) monitors their population?

    The current situation has to be the most spectacular own goal in the history of the US - what were they thinking? Frankly I think Obama could win reelection (yea, I know he's term limited) by simply issuing a Presidential Pardon to Snowden as an American who stood up for the principals in the US Constitution.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Show of hands please?

      All the US has to do is return all the soviet pilots that defected along with their aircraft and arrange for anyone who jumped the Berlin wall to be rounded up and returned to Moscow.

  12. An0n C0w4rd
    Joke

    Syria's nuclear programme?

    US Secretary of State John Kerry and Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel are due to meet their Russian counterparts in Washington to discuss "strategic stability, political-military cooperation and regional issues", including Syria and Iran's nuclear programme, the state department said.

    Syria has a nuclear programme?

    Yes, I know what the sentence means really, however the way it is structured it could also mean that they want to discuss Syria's nuclear programme.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Syria's nuclear programme?

      Yes the Americans have evidence that there are atoms in Syria

      1. Adam 1

        Re: Syria's nuclear programme?

        You joke now, but by some estimates, Syria is less than three years away from 2016.

    2. FredBloggsY
      Meh

      Re: Syria's nuclear programme?

      What happened to "nucular"?

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Syria's nuclear programme?

        Bush'ed!

    3. Scorchio!!

      Re: Syria's nuclear programme?

      "Syria has a nuclear programme?

      Yes, I know what the sentence means really, however the way it is structured it could also mean that they want to discuss Syria's nuclear programme."

      Israel bombed the project into dust, but that does not mean that Assad has not started up another site.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Syria's nuclear programme?

        Israel bombed the ALLEGED project (alleged by Israel, that is) into dust.

        Proof? Not so much.

    4. Suricou Raven

      Re: Syria's nuclear programme?

      Actually, yes. It's not very far along. If someone high-up in the US decides war is in order, I'm sure you'll be hearing a lot about it.

  13. Ole Juul

    Time for some new meds

    The Americans are starting to get really tiresome. This is like some kind of disorder.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's all good

    Assange and Snowden can "languish" until they die as will Manning in the brig.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: It's all good

      Your Sieg Hailing is duly noted.

      1. Scorchio!!

        Re: It's all good

        "Your Sieg Hailing is duly noted."

        Your first use of the argumentum ad hominem is noted, as is the extremely stupid political suggesting contained therein. Even 6th form debating societies produce better material than that.

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Thumb Down

          Re: It's all good

          You better learn first what "ad hominem" is. I doesn't mean what you think it means.

          And the "suggestion" is far from stupid. Indeed it is extremely trivial.

  15. MonsieurInconnu
    Unhappy

    Deeply disappointed

    I was hoping for a Playmobil enactment of the meeting. Bah.

  16. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Russia Nyet. But Sweden is "a close friend and partner". COUGH COUGH REUGGHH

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/07/obama-putin-talks-canceled-snowden

    In a separate announcement, the White House said Obama will visit Sweden instead, travelling to Stockholm the day before the St Petersburg summit. "Sweden is a close friend and partner to the United States," it said in a statement. "[It] plays a key leadership role on the international stage including in opening new trade and investment opportunities."

    Speaking on Monday night, Obama said he was disappointed that Russia had allowed Swowden to stay instead of sending the former government contractor back to the US to face espionage charges.

    In his first direct comments about Snowden since Russia's decision last week, the president said the situation reflected "underlying challenges" in dealing with Moscow. "There have been times where they slip back into cold war thinking and a cold war mentality," Obama said on NBC's Tonight Show.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Childcatcher

      Re: Russia Nyet. But Sweden is "a close friend and partner". COUGH COUGH REUGGHH

      Obama is probably going to Sweden to sew up the deal to get Assange extradited the moment the Swedes get their hands on him.

      Can't waste an opportnity to tidy up a few loose ends can he?

      1. Scorchio!!

        Re: Russia Nyet. But Sweden is "a close friend and partner". COUGH COUGH REUGGHH

        "Obama is probably going to Sweden to sew up the deal to get Assange extradited the moment the Swedes get their hands on him.

        Can't waste an opportnity to tidy up a few loose ends can he?"

        As has been pointed out so many times, under the terms of the EAW Sweden cannot allow the US to extradite Assange from their jurisdiction without first gaining our permission. Since we are in any case more likely to bend over at Obama's request - ToniBliar signed a treaty that makes it very easy for the US to extradite people - it makes more sense for the US to address their requests to us; indeed, the Swedish government has already made it clear that they will stand aside and let the US have first fuck with Assange if they want to.

        As you wait for your comet to fly by, why don't you peruse this link which will help you avoid those dodgy NSA beams: http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

    2. Lutter
      Thumb Down

      Re: Russia Nyet. But Sweden is "a close friend and partner". COUGH COUGH REUGGHH

      I am originally from Sweden. There was a time, but it's long gone now, when Sweden granted asylum to US army defectors from the Vietnam war.

  17. Maty

    " he should be returned to the United States as soon as possible where he will be accorded full due process and protections," press secretary Jay Carney said."

    In other news Private Bradley Manning's prison sentence has been reduced to 90 years.

    Is Carney stupid, or does he think the rest of the world is?

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I miss the good old days of the Cold War

    Back then when someone in the USSR did something like Snowden did and he managed to escape the country, we were happy to protect him as a "dissident" despite the Soviet Premier angrily demanding his return. I was proud of my country for standing on the side of right.

    Now the dissident has to escape the US and take refuge in Russia, while our President angrily demands he be returned. What the hell happened to my country?

    1. startstuff

      Re: I miss the good old days of the Cold War

      "What the hell happened to my country?"

      We are in a steep decline and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

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