Fair enough
If it's not breaking the law, it's not breaking the law. No use whining about it. Whereas it really does sounds as though Barney Jones has broken the law if he's kept all those emails...
Google chief Eric Schmidt has once more defended his advertising giant for its pitiful UK tax bills: the search supremo said his biz abides by the rules, and claims he can't wait for the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development to reform those rules. Schmidt said in an op-ed for The Observer that Google "has …
"If it's not breaking the law, it's not breaking the law. No use whining about it. Whereas it really does sounds as though Barney Jones has broken the law if he's kept all those emails..."
Hmm, not really sure. I'm pretty sure that
1) Google is pursuing a tax strategy that is borderline evasion in the UK with this sales stuff, and
2) Barney Jones is probably protected as he is retaining prima facie evidence of wrongdoing.
Google looks to be pretty close to tax fraud here, if not in the territory itself.
Aggressive tax avoidance is obviously immoral, as it breaks the intention of the law. In the same way, dissembling, while not actually lying, is really just lying. When the perp's slogan is "Don't be evil!", I think whining is in order.
The govt. bears part of the responsibility for enabling avoidance. But the gross avoider is guilty too. Partners in wrongdoing often blame each other.
Google and Amazon are like those people who turn up to a "bring a bottle" party with a litre of Aldi coke and then proceed to drink the Wyborowa vodka and Hendricks gin all night.
They may piss a lot of people right off, but, alas, they've technically not broken any rules.
Often they have technically broken the rules, just the rules are not enforced. Those who's job it is to enforce the rules are instead cosying up to the perps. It's become the norm.
Britain has become something of a world centre for international tax avoidance activities. As president of the G8, Britain is about to lead the G8 2013 summit, where tax avoidance will be discussed as a major agenda item. I assume we will be showing all those other countries how to do it properly.
These companies are filing blatantly false claims, there's no need to change the law. The reason they're not getting prosecuted is that the Govt. is scared of taking unilateral action and is giving HMRC the nod to treat them differently from other taxpayers.
Try telling the taxman that you're actually providing a service for your cousin in Ireland and see how far you get with the "well, change the law, then" argument.
Ok, let me try to be clearer:
The law says I can avoid tax by having an ISA, Premium bonds etc: I do these things. They are advertised by government and we are encouraged to use these products.
The law doesn't say that I can't form a company in Amsterdam with no employees, through which I operate complex financial instruments used to move money to low-to-no tax regimes.
Now, if I were to do the latter, I wouldn't be getting on my high horse about how it's governments fault that I do this, because it would be a decision that I have taken with the specific intention of avoiding as much tax as I possibly can using a technicality of international tax law. I certainly wouldn't go on about how my company pays tax through the taxes its employees pay, because it sort of veers into justification at that point. If I was avoiding tax and I didn't feel that it was wrong, why would I keep justifying it in increasingly desperate ways?
He's wrong, the public (his customers) as a whole know he is, most major international development charities publicly speak out against the actions of these companies and the harm their tax avoidance does, and if he had a clear conscience he wouldn't need to continually justify the actions of his company.
This, gentlemen, is the problem that scientists and technical people have with the legal system. They are so used to argue with pure logic that it is extremely hard for them to understand that there are grey areas in the way laws are interpreted and applied.
In the real world, you unfortunately sometimes need a lengthy trial and a lot of money spent on lawyers to figure out whether something is legal. And the outcome of the trial can actually depend on how good the lawyers are! From a scientist point of view, this is pure madness — they assume that the law is so clear that any intelligent person could determine infallibly whether something is legal after thinking for a few minutes. Would it be that simple…
Legal positivism (the doctrine that says "the law is what is written down") is the bane of civilisation, and leads to the triumph of legalism over justice. There must always be "wiggle room" in the application of the law. I used to be a legal positivist until I did my law degree and became a lecturer in law and ethics, and I can see why technically-minded people prefer the idea that the law should be a set of blueprints, but, seriously, you wouldn't want that. It is not possible to have a law that covers all situations.
Let me put it another way - do you want zero-tolerance on law-breaking for everything?
The law is the law - exactly as it is written, not any more and not any less.
The problem is that laws are written by a variety of people, changed over time and have various other laws superseding parts of them and all sorts of other issues.
Thus there is no 'the law' (and certainly no 'spirit of the law') but a succession of laws that are not free from errors and conflicts, and can thus be interpreted in a variety of ways.
Then you have international agreements to consider.
What can be done? who knows - maybe corporations should not be taxed at all (maybe by not having profits - all income is spent on R&D and costs and then the leftovers split between employees... discuss!), and everyone earning more than 20k should be taxed at 40%, or whatever figures people can agree on - something a lot simpler and harder to evade/avoid.
ttfn
"but Google isn't breaking the law"
This is seriously uncertain - that's why Google people are being interrogated. If people close deals in the UK as appears to have been demonstrated, Google IS breaking the law. It then depends on how scared politicians are not to be found in Google searches anymore if they are prepared to act, or add the issue to that large lump under the carpet.
Rather than faffing about asking Google "pretty please can you give us some more money?", decide how much tax they should be paying and change the law so thats what they actually pay!
Asking companies like Google and Amazon to pay "what they think is fair" is just a waste of time - Tax laws exist to define how much companies should pay.
I agree. But if you want the business - and we do - then the rates have to be competitive in a global market. So that probably means scraping corporate tax altogether. At least then the small shops aren't paying taxes that the big boys aren't and also fewer accountants are employed to work out the best way to avoid paying tax.
"But if you want the business - and we do - then the rates have to be competitive in a global market"
Are you suggesting that Google will pull out of Europe if they get taxed too much? The largest economy in the world? Really?
No, they're just trying it on, they'll keep doing it until the EU bolt their tax law down and then they'll grumble a bit, but they certainly won't pull out of Europe.
Ha, well, at least our headline rate of 12.5% is more or less what is paid, unlike the rest of Europe where the headline rate can be 30+% and what's actually paid can be around 8%. You don't like it, change your tax laws.
The real problem is the ability to set up companies registered in Ireland tax resident elsewhere, and even that wouldn't be as large a problem without the Dutch, Swiss and Luxembourg rules allowing "sandwich" setup. It's the interaction of a number of different laws, in different jurisdictions.
Anyway, aren't all the tax-havens British Overseas Territories?
That Jack, is highly offensive, and bang out of order.
Firstly Ireland's Corporation tax rate is no more "harbouring all these multi nationals", than Asda are harbouring all those British Customers with their 10% price promises, etc. It's called competition, and is one of the fundamental pillars of healthy economics.
Secondly attacking Ireland for competing economically for foreign investment is particularly rich coming from someone in Britain. Although Ireland caused enough economic self harm on it's own without Britains help, British post-war discrimination, and Beef Tariff's, etc rendered measures by Ireland to compete more strongly, including our 12.5% Corporation tax attracting foreign investment necessary to survive the British onslaught. At this point, we've as much right to our 12.5% corporation tax, as the British have to remain in Northern Ireland, or Gibraltar.
Finally, by attacking "Ireland", you're tarring both the people, and government of Ireland with the same brush. The Irish people ( as opposed to the Irish Government ) have no control over taxes. This has been clearly demonstrated over the past year or so, with the introduction of property tax, despite objection from the vast majority of the Irish population.
Love your forthright attitude JP. And while we're at it, lets flip off these other money grabbing tax havens:
Bermuda, Caymans, Gibralter, Anguilla, Montserrat, Caicos, Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man...
all of which are well known parts of a certain green and pleasant country in NW Europe.
I came across a session on the bbc parliament tv channel, when "this woman",(Hodge?) chaired a session that demonstrated how TOTALLY clueless she is on the whole subject of tax avoidance and evasion. I never thought I'd have any sympathy for the Google-body and a Ernst & young bloke being grilled, but... it was just so embarrassing to watch that MP making completely unsupported claims and then, interrupting when those two people, who clearly knew their business, tried to correct her (and no, I'm not a google fan).
And then, another thing, a FANTASTIC performance from a woman from the HMRC, also called and blamed why the HMRC don't "do more". She kept her calm, managed to stand her ground, and despite being constantly interrupted, put the message across, loud and clear: You, the politicians, made those (...) laws, and we're doing the best we can to follow them.
I must say, these hearings should be MANDATORY for anybody over the voting age :)))
I'm a regular viewer of BBC Parliament; and it's a real eye opener to see these people in action. It has to be said that it can vary; I've seen some MPs show a really good understanding of key issues; but equally, their lack of basic knowledge can be a bit disconcerting at times.
There is also a considerable amount of posturing going on; that's bad enough, but they also rely on parliamentary privelege to make accusations that they would otherwise not be allowed.
It's also worth reading the Wikipedia page for Margaret Hodge MP; some really interesting comments on her past and the way that she operates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hodge
I'm not surprised, that the MPs are clueless on various matters, but I was, probably naively, expecting that the panel would be made up of those, who have some expertise in the area. And if "expertise" is too much too ask, at least, SOME degree of familiarity with the problem. There was actually one bloke on that panel, who appeared to listen to what the "guests" had to say, and ask them questions based on their answers, also trying to actually take things forward in this whole sorry affair. But Hodge was totally pathetic and without merit - and she was the chair. It really was both depressing and embarrassing to watch this non-performance :(
Hodges answer on the C4 news about her assets being held in trust was funny and showed she understood tax avoidance perfectly.
She managed to make herself look even stupider by pretending not to understand that there is no benefit gained with inheritance avoidance until the person is dead.
It would be interesting to see how shes voted for the various tax changes?
"It would be interesting to see how shes voted for the various tax changes?"
Here you go, knock yourself out:
I just love that all these companies go with the "we're just following the law" part without mentioning all the money they dump into making sure the laws are set up to their advantage.
Also, I have always wondered how much they truly save after taking into account the lawyers, creative accountants and lobbyist.
Oh no... can't... must... resist...
It's in their interest to pay as little tax as is allowable by law. Just as it's in my interest to pay as little as is allowable by law. Just as it's in the interests of every single MP to do the same. I bet there are very few people who voluntarily pay more tax than they are legally bound to and I bet they are not politicians!
Calling it morally repugnant and attempting to guilt-trip people into making additional contributions, while failing to make additional contributions themselves is what disgusts me. Since when is it the job of politicians to cast moral judgements? That's not their job. The fact that any politician can believe they are morally superior to anyone or anything is exasperating, by definition that is impossible.
It's morally repugnant to constantly whinge about people/companies that haven't broken any actual laws, while they themselves pay as little tax as possible, and fail to actually change the rules which they themselves are supposed to be responsible for.
This is not a new problem!
Following the Barney Jones revelations - I wonder if the google autocomplete options when you start searching for his name will start to look like
Barney Jones Dead Man
Barney Jones Google Knows Where You Live
Barney Jones Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries
According to Google IP doesn't exist well not for other people, its all there for Google to snap up exploit monetize and fuck the creators, fuck the tax man, and if they think your any where near Google's IP then fuck you too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233367/Google-vs-Doogle-Internet-giant-threatens-sue-school-dropout-23-job-websites-similar-logo.html
http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/5179-Google-Sends-Cease-and-Desist-to-Booble
I can almost understand how Google get away with it, but Amazon? I buy physical stuff which is shipped from a warehouse in the UK. At no point does my stuff exist in Luxemborg, indeed a lot of electrical stuff is specific UK spec - power leads etc. I wonder if I could get away with the same if it were a bricks and morter store? Take a credit card swipe that's processed in Luxemborg, but hand over the goods there and then and put 10p on every transaction through the UK as 'warehousing and handling'.
It is probably something to do with where a company is registered - it's registered address is a formal and legal thing. If organisations let the formalities slip then they can get into a bit of bother.
Something along lines of memoranda and articles of constitution I think (every organisation has to have a name, an address and someone in charge). I'd guess that in Europe that means one company registration that is respected and upheld across Europe.
The other thing about taxation on income or turnover in countries of Europe is probably a non-starter as most taxes are on profits rather than turnover?
Besides, if a country has the footprint of a regional office then it is probably going to receive quite a bit more in income tax than corporation type taxes?
... imagine this:
International company directors decide it should do the morally correct thing and pay taxes even though there are known and publicised methods to minimise tax paid. But directors feel morally bound to do the morally correct thing coz they iz soopah-kool doodz innit!
A shareholders extra special general meeting is rapidly put together and the shareholders move to sack the morally correct motivated directors because they are compromising the legal duty of a director to return maximum dish to shareholders.
True?
Doable?
...I just can't get mad at the companies who operate like this. If I were a shareholder in a company, I'd want them to do as much as humanely possible to maximise the return on my investment. These people aren't breaking the law. They're maximising profits by not pandering to the weasels we so regularly employee in the House of Commons.
Yes, this may well be reprehensible to us, but it isn't illegal. And all the naivety of people who call for these companies to 'follow the spirit of the law' and 'do the right thing' are clearly no longer living in the real world.
As long as the loopholes exist, they will be utilised. Unfortunately HMRC appears to have neither the resources, nor the inclination to close the loopholes, and until we see a complete overhaul of the clusterfuck that is our bloated tax system, then they aren't going away. And people like Margaret Hodge can bitch and whine about it all they want, but they're the ones who have to do something about it.
Sorry. Rant over.
> ...I just can't get mad at the companies who operate like this. If I were a shareholder in a company, I'd want them to do as much as humanely possible to maximise the return on my investment. "
Totally agree. Two points:
1. They are not legally required to pay more tax than they currently are, it's not fraud, their accounts are audited.
2. They are legally required to operate in the best interests of the shareholders, not giving money away is a good start.
If they do pay more tax what will happen to it, it will be given away in foreign aid to countries richer than our own, it will be given away to skanks who can't work due to a jeremy kyle addiction.
That the ones who are getting slammed in the UK for not paying taxes such as google, then say they pay more taxes in the US where most of their stuff is done, pay an equally dismal amount of Taxes in the USA by using the same excuses and tricks.
I know there has been some whining about it over here also even as far back as 2011.
apparently there is no profit, the profit is a lie...
If Google insists on paying no tax then perhaps we should avoid viewing their ads. Social networks spreading simple instructions for installing AdBlock and the like would cause huge damage to their bottom-line. People would still use the search function to find what they wanted but there would be no click-through. Admittedly this might change the shape of the internet forever as the ad placement trickledown would be gone.
Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Jersey, Guernsey , Isle of Man, Cayman Islands, Turks and Caicos Islands, all of these tax havens under British administration used by people to avoid taxes in their own countries... If UK wants to be serious about tax avoidance, it should begin to clean the mess at home
govts spent a shedload of cash trying to prove that invading a foreign country was technically legal and therefore not a warcrime, even if morally dubious.
same here. you either break the law, in which case prosecute them, or they didn't. No "well it feels bad" or "i think it's eeeeeevil". I reserve particular contempt for Hodge the dodge who spirits away millions in trusts and inheritance tax evasion accounts for Stemcor that pay less than 0.01% tax and then wheels in her moral high horse, when all along she is part of the body that makes the law!
Leaving aside the bit about tax avoidance being legal, I am interested in David Cameron's statements about creating a level playing field for the international taxation of global companies.
While the objective makes eminent sense - if all countries operate similar ( and hopefully, simplified ) tax systems and charge broadly similar, or even identical tax, rates then the incentive to imaginative accounting would be greatly reduced. but a proposal of this type is essentially of the nature of a price ring. The problem with all price rings is that while they are in the long term interest of all the members, in the short term it is in the interest of one member to break ranks. Which is the cause of their renowned instability.
On top of that, how would our worthy Competition Commissioner in the EU take to price fixing on that scale ?
Chris Cosgrove