back to article Listen up, Nokia: Get Lumia show-offs in pubs or it's game over

Nokia has a couple of mountains to climb. There's the real mountain: in the marketplace it's starting from scratch, a newcomer that just happens to have a large distribution business in place, and a couple of billion euros in capital. Then there's the metaphorical mountain, which is a mountain of cliches. For Nokia to survive …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A phone with garish colours and 2011 specs

    is always going to be two years behind the curve. dual core and 8MP camera with backlighting are nothing new. If you really like silly colours for your phone, then buy a £2 ebay bumper....

    Windows Phone is a disaster zone. Consumers know that. No amount of pubs displays are going to change that. Too many potential "tech" customers that might have been silly enough to trust a Microsoft mobile OS were burnt badly by the Windows Phone 7/7.5 dead-end last time around.

    1. zanto
      Pint

      Re: A phone with garish colours and 2011 specs

      those dual cores are Kraits. which for the less informed, stack up rather favourably against the nvidia and samsung quad core a9's.

      on the hardware front, there is nothing to complain about.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Put 8 core, 8 Gb RAM

      I heard you can't keep Skype running all times, nothing like Android services or true multitasking symbian.

      So, they have wasted hardware.

      1. dogged

        Re: Put 8 core, 8 Gb RAM

        I heard you can't keep Skype running all times

        Well, that must be true then.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Put 8 core, 8 Gb RAM

        Don't worry, Skype has gone downhill so badly lately that it finds new and exciting ways to misbehave on iOS and Android too. Stuff that used to work is now broken.

        1. P. Lee

          Stuff that used to work is now broken.

          ... and Extinguish.

          Or at least, damp down until it produces no usable heat or light.

    3. N13L5

      Even if they drop the garish colors...

      ...as long as Elop insists on WindPhone OS and nothing else, there won't be many Nokia buyers.

      Why doesn't Nokia get smart and offer a few OS choices...

      Like Samsung... throw a lot of stuff on the wall and make more of those things that stick.

      Sure got them to #1...

  2. James 51

    An 820 with the proper pureview sensor from the 808 with the lens from the 920 would be enough to tempt me when my contract runs out. That's not for over a year though.

    1. Manu T

      @ james51

      IF WP8 can:

      - full bluetooth transfer including syncing

      - NFC compatible between other Nokia models e.g. C7/701

      - 2-way call recording

      - full multitasking (like Windows Mobile or Symbian)

      - Outlook USB syncing

      THEN :

      I might be tempted to look at it

      BUT:

      Only if Nokia take appropriate actions to get my Lumia 800 back. Nokia, I brought this 02/2012 device in for repair end of June... It's now early September 2012 and I STILL HAVEN'T got it back (repaired or unrepaired)!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @ james51

        Nokia's shitty service was the last straw for me, and why I stopped buying Nokia and bought an Android device. They kept promising to respond within forty-eight hours, but never did. They were able to use the supplied info to send me plenty of SMS spam in the small hours, though,

        So screw Nokia. They did me a favour, as it turns out.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @ james51

          Apple's shitty service was the last straw for me, and why I stopped buying Apple and bought a Windows Phone device. They kept promising to respond with 14 days, but returned the device unrepaired every time.

          htc on the other hand sent a replacement 7 Mozart handset when they picked up the defective one.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I think it looks quite nice, but I'd rather it ran Android than Windows... I don't like the tiles, I prefer my old fashioned icons and the very handy widgets in Android...

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Unhappy

      So, it has come to this

      At least with the old black models you could cover up or scrape off the embarrassing windows logo when you flashed them with Android. Now if you whipped out that butt ugly yellow joke in a pub, everyone immediately thinks your a few butties short of a picnic no matter what OS its running. You won't even be able to shift these on eBay.

      Witness everyone - this is what you let Nokia get wrecked for.

      1. toadwarrior
        Facepalm

        Re: So, it has come to this

        If you worry about what other people think of you because your phone is yellow, then you must be the country's biggest sissy.

        1. Bob Vistakin
          FAIL

          Re: So, it has come to this

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wireless charging and compatibility with speakers are two big wins for me.

    I swapped my iPhone for a Lumia 800 (SIM-free and used, I too was avoiding the perceived risk of WP7) and in doing so it meant my alarm clock dock was useless and having to attach a charging cable to the phone each night instead of sticking it onto a dock.

    Putting the iPhone on the dock was a little fiddly, so just being able to place it on a cushion or charging slab is really useful.

    The real dilemma for me is how to get the 920 when it comes out. I bought my iPhone 4 from Apple so paid full price and went on GiffGaff. I don't want to be on a contract with lots of minutes I don't use or have a handset full of operator branded crap.

  5. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

    I'm deeply cynical about most new technology. But wireless charging looks interesting. Just plonk your phone down when you sit down in the office, at the pub, or on a train, and top up your charge. That's genuinely revolutionary.

    The trouble is, if it becomes widespread then every other manufacturer will copy it. So Nokia could do the hard work opening up the market and then quickly lose their advantage.

    1. Richard Plinston

      > That's genuinely revolutionary.

      Inductive charging has been around for decades. The Palm Pre had it in 2009. The HP Touchpad has it.

      Kits are available for many phones:

      http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/wireless-induction-charger.html

      1. Piro Silver badge

        Toothbrush..

        Rechargeable toothbrushes are a quick example of inductive charging already in homes for years..

        1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

          Re: Toothbrush..

          This is a general response to everybody here.

          I can't charge my phone on my toothbrush charger. Nor are such chargers widespread: so I can't walk into the pub, have a quick brush after lunch, and then be certain I can top up my toothbrush's charge.

          The revolutionary thing would be to make wireless charging ubiquitous; to make it available in the pub, on the train, and in Starbucks. Andrew's article suggest Nokia are busy signing people up: iff they can make that happen, then that would count as a revolution. Dribbling out a product and then abandoning it (a la HP) doesn't count. And my tag "revolutionary" was predicated on them achieving that. (Which I didn't make clear.)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What hard work?

      Palm had the Touchstone, and both Samsung and HTC have had wireless charging. Nothing new here. So what hard work did Nokia do exactly?

      1. Eguro

        Re: What hard work?

        I imagine he meant, that if Nokia were to make it widespread and get people to request it, then they would've probably had to spend some bit of money making that happen.

        The technology might've been in use previously, but it's not something I've heard much about before, and most people probably wont hear much about it, simply because the Lumia happens to have it.

      2. TeeCee Gold badge
        Facepalm

        Re: What hard work?

        That's the new "revolutionary", as defined by Apple in relation to shiny.

        i.e. Yes, it's been done before, but nobody's hyped the fuck out of it like we have.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      " if it becomes widespread then every other manufacturer will copy it"

      I believe that it's licensed from elsewhere, anyway, so it would hardly be copying (unless you use the Apple sense of the word).

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      They did

      My Palm Pre 3 has wireless charging which works extremely well. I understand that HP released several thousand before giving up on the phone market. So no, other manufacturers probably won't copy it.

  6. GrumpyJoe

    Apps

    I like the look of the camera but am worried about data lock in - how does this phone tie in the Linux for example (which I run exclusively at home)? What killer apps are there going to be (Angry Birds is not one btw).

    I realise I'm not the 'core demographic' of 20 somethinga with more money than sense, but I like the flexibility of Android, for all its faults (and yes, I currently use Google for some sync stuff (lock-in!) but am working on moving those out of Google onto my own infrastructure. So there!)

    1. Manu T

      Re: Apps

      "how does this phone tie in the Linux"

      Do you really expect a WINDOWS device to play nice with Linux?

  7. dotdavid

    "Nokia has tried to add several differentiators to the new Lumias. Wireless charging is one, bonk-to-play-music is another."

    Really? Wireless charging is neat, but it's not exactly exclusive to Nokia. Bonk to play again is neat, but will people really go out and buy new music equipment to take advantage of it? I doubt it. You're right in saying the People Hub was overhyped. A lot of Windows Phone is overhyped; it strikes me as a gimmicky platform desperately trying to be different to compete.

    You mention that iPhone owners have invested in the ecosystem and thus won't necessarily be swayed, but similarly Android owners have invested in the Android ecosystem which is a fact you seem to discount. Fine it's easy enough to export your contacts and whatnot from Google, but your paid apps?

    Nokia make nice hardware. Windows Mobile is nice enough, just not fully featured and a bit gimmicky. But it's the fact that the main competitors have pre-existing ecosystems that is going to be Nokia's problem selling these phones.

  8. Mick Stranahan
    Meh

    nah

    if camera quality was that big a deal the first two models of iPhone would never have sold and the PureView808 - which has a truly extraordinary camera - would be flying out the door.

    For 99% of the world a run of the mill 8MP camera is enough, more than enough in fact.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: nah

      Upvote for not using the horrible mush-mouthed American- "big of a deal", which just sounds grating and awkward :)

  9. Chris 171

    Devices..

    Personally I'm waiting for the model with a camera lump. The good signs that the hardware Nokians can still do their thing is encouraging

    But where is the Nokia tablet.....?

  10. John Styles

    I was actually moderately taken with the Lumia (not one of the two new ones, obviously) I tried in some phone shop whilst my girlfriend was buying an Android phone, but the browser didn't reflow text or to put it another way 'was about as much use as a chocolate teapot'. [There may have been some way but some searching on forums gave me the impression you couldn't].

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's clear what the Lumia market is

    US carriers scared of a Google/Apple duopoly.

    They should be pointing this out and getting the carriers to push for WP8 for all they're worth.

    Unfortunately, the fact that the Lumias launched without carriers, prices and arrival dates makes me think that either the carriers have written off supporting the whole project for fear of offending the big two or are playing hardball over prices and commitments. They're mad: if Nokia collapses and Microsoft retreats to the desktop they'll be forced to pay through the nose for the iPhone 6 and Galaxy Nexus 2.

    My comparison here is the Palm Pre. Great version 1 product (OS not too fast, iffy hardware, iffy advertising-but the basics were complete) but Verizon ordered thousands of Verizon-only phones with costly modifications and then decided that Android was a better bet. Palm never really recovered.

    I want the Lumias to succeed. They have a great design and some very interesting ideas. But Nokia are now in a death spiral: they should start work on a port of Jelly Bean as a backup now. If they haven't already.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's clear what the Lumia market is

      Right, because Samsung is the only Android phone maker, and Google charges so much for Android, right?

    2. Ocular Sinister
      WTF?

      Re: It's clear what the Lumia market is

      The U.S. carriers aren't scared of Google or Android, they are scared of Skype... which is owned by Microsoft now and included in WP8.

      Skype may well be one of the greatest own goals in the history of IT.

  12. Mike Judge
    Stop

    "No other rival can offer such distinctive differentiators"

    BZZTTT Wrong...

    2011: http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL79B2287613DC67D5&v=P7vxpNDFMm4&feature=player_detailpage

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "No other rival can offer such distinctive differentiators"

      And that worked out so well that everyone knows about it.

      Oh, they don't? Well.

      1. N13L5
        Pint

        Re: "No other rival can offer such distinctive differentiators"

        I'd really like for Nokia to stay alive...

        But I'm not going to waste my cash on their stuff to help them do so while Elop is running it...

        Please, all the guys shilling for WindPhone8 go buy a bunch of their phones yourselves,

        To keep that badly poisoned 3rd eco system alive.

  13. Schultz

    Problem with MS-phone

    When choosing a phone with an exotic operating system, the compatibility with other ecosystems becomes a large issue. Will it sync my emails, calendar, files, play music, ...? Apple is the dominant player and you know that things just work for all those users. Android is touted to be 'open', hence there is inherent expectation of compatibility with all the applications I use elsewhere.

    A windows phone is scary in this respect: Based on a decade of experience with Word documents, etc., I expect to be locked-in. Showing off phones in a pub may help, but I would still expect nasty tricks from MS.

    I predict failure, unless Nokiasoft can compete on price with low-medium level Android devices.

    1. P. Lee

      Re:I would still expect nasty tricks from MS.

      Including extra licensing costs for exchange sync when not using a windows phone.

  14. Thomas 4
    IT Angle

    Well....

    I don't know if the Lumias are going to be enough to give Windows 8 Phone its presence but it would be really nice to have 3 active OS ecosystems to choose from instead of just Apple vs Android. Slightly tempted here - might have a look in February when it's time to renew my contract. By then, hopefully any big snafus will have been ironed out.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well....

      @Thomas 4 downvoter

      It never ceases to amaze me that someone's post can be downvoted on el reg for simply expressing fact and opinion. The 2 points Thomas made were a) 3 way competition is better than 2 and b) He's slightly tempted to to take a look at a Lumia.

      How brain dead does someone have to be to downvote a) a statement this is obviously correct and b) personal opinion? And no, I am not Thomas 4.

      1. ian 22

        Re: Well....

        Up/down votes express personal opinion, so why be amazed by them? Feel free to down vote.

      2. The lone lurker
        Meh

        Re: Well....

        I'm still not certain why anyone cares about downvotes. It doesn't hide your post or anything.

        Are you so insecure that you really care what some faceless name thinks of your opinion on an internet forum?

        I'm tempted to downvote you simply for your banal post but i'm worried it might affect your real life too much.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Well....

          "Are you so insecure that you really care what some faceless name thinks of your opinion on an internet forum?"

          Not at all. That's why I laughed at yours!

    2. Hi Wreck
      WTF?

      Re: Well....

      Don't you mean four? RIM isn't quite dead yet.

  15. Tom Maddox Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    Fugly

    The problem with the Tiles/Notro/Modern/WTF interface is that it is, in a word, fugly. No matter how good the underlying technology may be, no one wants to haul out their phone, look at the interface, and die a little inside because it's so hideous, which is pretty much my reaction whenever I see the Windows 8 UI.

    1. TeeCee Gold badge

      Re: Fugly

      I'd agree it's certainly not the prettiest out there.

      What it does have in its favour is it's the mutt's nuts of UIs on small touch screens. Very less-than-perfect-eyesight and fat finger friendly. You can forgive it a lot in eye-candy for that.

  16. MIc
    Thumb Up

    I'm getting one

    Love the 900 but I don't know how long I'll be able to hold off on getting the 920.

  17. NoneSuch Silver badge
    Linux

    No matter how many killer apps they have...

    MS has the habit of yanking the carpet from under the feet of their hardware users without warning. That leaves folks a wee bit tentative when they introduce new gear.

    1. jason 7
      Meh

      Re: No matter how many killer apps they have...

      Like all those android phones that never got their OS updates (oh its coming next quarter)?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: android phones that never got their OS updates

        Rooting & ROMs - sorted.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: android phones that never got their OS updates

          When the third party ROM options are slicker and nicer than the manufacturer crapware, I don't see the problem. They're generally amazingly up to date.

  18. jason 7
    Happy

    I have to say....

    ...I really quite like the look of the 920.

    I'm saving up for a new phone for Xmas so this will be on the short list to try out.

  19. Nathan 13

    The problem is

    that "Windows" is just not cool with teens, tweens, and 20/30 somethings.

    It really is all about an Iphone or an Andriod.

    Still it could change, look how quick Blackberry has gone from hero to zero!!

    1. Piro Silver badge

      Re: The problem is

      Teenagers still like Blackberry, or at least I see them with them where I work (a school).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The problem is

        Didn't you get the memo from the Apple PR Department? Blackberry is dead, nobody uses it - as proven by a sample taken in a large campus in Cupertino.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hmm...

    I have to say that when I got my current phone about 18 months ago, or so, I never thought that I'd own a phone with an MS OS, but I had to change my mind because it was clearly (in my opinion, for my tastes) the best phone. I wanted an FM radio, which ruled out iPhone, Blackberry didn't really "do it" for me and Android was ok, but for my tastes a little bit clunky, either in terms of hardware, or the software on particular phones. I don't want a phone that's endlessly hackable, I want an phone that's an appliance, which will just work, so I ended up with the WP7. I've really liked it and strongly suspect that I'll go back to Nokia, should WP8 be on a par with, or better than WP7.

    I really hope Nokia a on the road to recovery, I think it's important that we keep at least some major tech companies in Europe.

  21. wyatt
    Meh

    Additional functionality..

    How do they work as phones I wonder? I've a couple of devices (not worth of calling phones any more!) which are also phones and they're pants to say the least.

    1. Matthew 25
      Joke

      Re: Additional functionality..

      What!? You want to make calls on it!??

  22. Gerhard den Hollander

    Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

    Windows has themselves added an extra risk to the WP8 gamble. The fact that their WP7 phones cannot be upgraded to WP8, and are effectiveley end-of-lived.

    Never mind the fact that most punters dont ever upgrade the OS on their phone.

    The pureview / low light / image stabilisation sounds wonderful. (and the sample shots look stunning)

    As someone who finds himself taking pictures in low light conditions quite often (and who doesnt like flash much)

    I wonder if Nokia could be pursuaded to make a camera with these features (something smaller then an SLR, and with a smaller price tag ...)

    1. Richard Plinston

      Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

      > The pureview / low light / image stabilisation sounds wonderful. (and the sample shots look stunning)

      Most of the 'samples' were faked.

      1. dogged
        FAIL

        Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

        Prove it. There was a video which was made by an ad agency which was "faked" (and Nokia are taking steps). But those hands-ons where they show wobbling the camera around with and without the image stabilizxation thing - hard to fake. The challenge where they let you take you phone and Lumia into a dark room to take a picture and your android/iphone gets a load of black while the Lumia gets a decent image?

        The way they did those tests live?

        Hard to fake that. Your FUD is get really, really old.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

          You can't prove a negative, oh self-deluding one. Logic fail.

          BTW, the stills and videos were both smoke and mirrors- unless the phone comes with a white van, a lighting rig and some SLRs.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Boffin

        Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

        Was it not just the HD video with optical stabilisation that was faked?

        1. Richard Plinston

          Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

          > Was it not just the HD video with optical stabilisation that was faked?

          http://www.gottabemobile.com/2012/09/06/nokia-lumia-920-promo-photos-faked/

          1. dogged
            FAIL

            Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

            Live (impossible to fake) tests and comparisons. Why aren't you posting these URLs too, Richard Plinston? Could it be that you have an agenda?

            http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/7/3299784/nokia-lumia-920-pureview-camera-hi-res-photos

            http://youtu.be/sRMaVNf3zOQ

            1. Richard Plinston

              Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

              There may well be some photos that are _not_ fakes, but that is not the issue. Nokia labeled film and photos as being taken with the 920 when that was not true. There is even a picture of the photo shoot showing a DSLR and a pile of lighting equipment when the result was _claimed_ to be how well 920 takes low-light photos.

              http://sefsar.com/nokia-faked-the-still-photos-too

              http://asia.cnet.com/nokia-also-faked-lumia-920-stills-62218640.htm

            2. Richard Plinston

              Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

              > Live (impossible to fake) tests and comparisons. Why aren't you posting these URLs too, Richard Plinston? Could it be that you have an agenda?

              Could it be that it is you that has an agenda.

              I noticed on the 'live test' that they showed the photos in the park _allegedly_ taken on the 920 and other phones. While the 920 image was on a 920, so were the other alleged phone photos. In the original posting of these all those photos lined up perfectly, they even cut a composite. This indicates that all the 'cameras' were in the same position with the same focal length. That is not true for those devices.

              It is far more likely that the photos for all the phone cameras were faked using a single DSLR camera as that is the only way they could create the composite that aligns correctly.

              There has also been criticism of the 920 photo with the lighting all wrong for it not to have been done with proper lighting. The tree's shadow shows the light coming from the left, but the _back_ of the girl's arms are in shadow while the front is lit.

              For the photos of the girl in the street at night there is a picture showing the photo shoot with a full lighting crew and a DSLR.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Risk Aversion vs Unique appeal

      That sort of image stabilisation is very common in cameras. Nokia's just being extremely misleading in both its claims and sample shots, to fool the ignorant.

  23. Insane Reindeer
    Thumb Up

    Screen technology

    Being able to use the screen with normal winter gloves on is the key feature for me on the new phones! The camera isn't such an important feature for me as I already have an 808 as my main phone.

  24. This Side Up
    Coat

    Bonk-to-play-music?

    or play music to bonk. Je t'aime perhaps?

  25. Jyve

    Unexpected

    Article hits the nail on the head, if this flops, Nokia's no more, but MS just tries again.

    Though...

    These DO seem decent. I wonder how many people will get them though, if you like the Metro looks, you'd have one of the older ones, and not being able to run WP8 apps will be a kicker. The adverts were 'the beta test is now over' and it turns out it was nothing BUT a beta. That's going to leave a sour taste in many early adopters.

    Shame there's a MS plant in charge in Elop, as it'd be good to have the option to have WP8/Android on the same hardware. Alas, we'll never have that option until he's booted out, and it'll be too late by then.

  26. Avatar of They
    Thumb Down

    good article but it just highlights how it won't sell.

    I agree that the people hub has been oversold, but the article still goes on about the killer feature being a camera and what the camera can do in taking photos in dark, light, sunshine, rooms or while moving. The other article on them faking what the camera can do. It's all about camera's... For a phone.

    People don't by phones for cameras (quick straw pole of the twenty in my office and none bought their based on camera HTC, Samsung and iphone mostly), they buy phones on the most part to be good at a few things and camera's are not the main one, they are usually a third or fouth feature behind calls, texts and sometimes internet access.

    So Lumia's are sold the first time round as allowing me to connect to twitter and facebook, (I use neither) and now as a camera (I have an SLR and the photos I take on my phone are few and far between) so again what use to me is an oversized phone from Nokia?

    I know I am biased as Nokia burned me with the N900, I am also biased because I don't like the UI because you can't change background, remove hubs etc. And it is rubbish landscape in portrait design. It's locked down tighter than Apple's offerings.

    But Nokia won't convince many people based on how good their camera is, when at the end of the day all the other features are still Windows and still nothing like the Samsung S3 or the Iphone.

  27. Arctic fox
    Thumb Up

    A very thoughtful article Andrew.............

    "I certainly didn't expect to write any of the above on Monday this week, but as Keynes may (or may not) have said: "When the facts change, I change my mind". I decline to give odds either way; I'm not in the prognostication business. But I merely point out that there is nothing 'inevitable' about the outcome of the smartphone market, and as long as Nokia has cash in the bank and can make standout products – which it has started to do again – there could be some surprises yet."

    ...........most of which I have to say I agree with. The problem is as far as these threads are concerned, that far too many prognosticate about what they want (if they are actually willing to be honest with themselves, never mind anybody else) to happen rather than trying to analyse what might actually happen. The result is of course that any discussion gets drowned out by tribalist howling.

    1. Ocular Sinister
      FAIL

      Re: A very thoughtful article Andrew.............

      Sony Xperias already do the low light trick - see Mike Judge's link. And they didn't have to fake it.

  28. url
    Devil

    great article, thanks for standing your (unpopular) ground

    i am seriously considering trading in my HTC One X (whichi is a fantastic tool, but lacks all the things that android lacks) in favour of a strikingly beautiful phone with Nokia's build quality and windows integration.

    It's the phone I've waited years for.

    6.5 was good, 7.0 okay, 7.5 a great improvment, but this is looking leagues ahead of the competition.

    (apps are toys for children)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: great article, thanks for standing your (unpopular) ground

      It is always the "next version" of Microsoft's phone OS that is supposed to be the killer. I remember all the hype around 6.5, but when it came out everyone was all about 7.0. When 7.0 came out, it was wait until 7.5. No sooner was 7.5 out the door and the hype machine cranked up about Windows 8.

      You will know if Windows Phone 8 flops in the marketplace like its predecessors if before the end of the year Microsoft starts talking about all the stuff they are adding to 8.5 or whatever the next one is called.

      The only feature in Andrew's list that really sounds like something I want is being able to photograph in low light. That's purely hardware, they can hype "Pureview" all they want but without a sensor capable of gathering smaller amounts of photons without introducing noise, no software in the world can help you take pictures in the dark. This is something that Samsung or Apple or HTC can easily replicate by buying the same type of sensor, it isn't magic technology just technology that costs a few dollars more than what the other guys are paying these days. If the marketplace shows that there's a demand for it high enough to be worth adding a few dollars to the BOM, it will be added to the competition, so this advantage would only last as long as it takes to get the Galaxy S 4 or iPhone 6 out the door next year.

      The rest of this stuff is just useless. Wireless charging, who cares. I don't see a lot of people getting excited about the Android phones that already offer this, so why should they care when it is a Nokia/MS phone? Only geeks would ever care about this purely as a way to brag to their geek friends, the average person will yawn and ask "why is it so hard to plug the end of a cable into the phone?" It is silly in the real world where you don't have wireless charging mats laying around everywhere. When you travel, would you rather carry around a tiny cable you can attach to a USB port (with perhaps a small power adapter if you won't have access to a USB port) or something the size of a mousepad IN ADDITION TO the cable and power adapter? Yeah, that sounds convenient! If it becomes so widespread that these mats are everywhere then fine, but at that point it would be a standard feature in every phone.

      Describing the "shake your phone" thing as a pub trick is apt, as it is totally a pub trick that matters not in the real world. Unless you have Parkinson's, you don't need a phone with better image stabilization than the ones already on the market.

      The bonk to play music is also rather dumb. The "bump" app on iPhone has been able to do this for a couple years, and I'd be totally shocked if the same capability wasn't also on Android. Not that anyone who owns either phone thinks it is useful enough to brag about, which is probably why Windows Phone buyers haven't heard of it so they think it is something new and cool.

  29. James Pickett

    Could be for me. Don't want Apple or Android, so currently have a cheapo ZTE which has good battery life and is LIGHT. Crap camera though!

  30. SpitefulGOD

    2 please

    I'll have red and blue or maybe yellow.. I'm into WP7, all my music comes through zunepass, which share the same account on both the WP7 phones (using the same email address) and is used in my parent home cinema and in my own home. I'll wait till November for the phone and buy them unlocked using the additional Nokia stocks I picked up during the price crash at the launch..

    then I'll just have to wait for a pink and blue surface to arrive :)

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Mushroom

      Re: 2 please

      And I'm holding out for the service pack where clippy comes back.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 2 please

      You have to be a troll, I thought the Zune user was discovered already, and he wasn't you?

  31. Shagbag

    But the real stand-outs are two new imaging features.

    "One such trick involves lining up a photo or video while shaking the phone and then activating the image stablilisation while continuing to shake the phone. The phone keeps moving, but the image in the viewfinder stops shaking."

    ...solution in search of a problem

    "The other show-off feature is the quality of lowlight photography on the new kit, which is outstanding. The new phones take great pictures in near darkness without requiring a flash."

    ...it's called turning the lights on to take a photo.

    1. Mr_Bungle
      Stop

      Re: But the real stand-outs are two new imaging features.

      "...it's called turning the lights on to take a photo"

      And if you're outside at night? Make a habit of rotating the Earth to match your lighting requirements do you?

      1. RICHTO
        Mushroom

        Re: But the real stand-outs are two new imaging features.

        "...it's called turning the lights on to take a photo"

        But then your naked gf that you were trying to take a photo of for the lads will wake up!

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Get BBM on there and they'll sell loads to the kids. I'm pretty sure they hate the OS but like the messenger service. RIM being desperate for money and willing to licence the OS they should also think about letting others access BBM for a fee.

    1. RICHTO
      Mushroom

      It already has Skype. Which is way way more popular than BBM

  33. Davidoff
    FAIL

    Windows Phone 8 isn't the problem

    The problem are the underwhelming phones. Measly 8MP snappers on both models (after the N8 already had 12MP two years ago!), some image stabilizer and a little better low light performance but no SD card on the 600 EUR Lumia 920, and a lowly 800x480 display and only 8GB memory on the 450 EUR Lumia 820. All this while many current Android phones even in the Lumia 820 price range already come with stunning HD displays, 32GB memory, HDMI out and 12MP cameras already. And then there's the upcoming iPhone 5.

    The problem is that Nokia could have used the chance to present something truly revolutionary, i.e. a phone with large 16MP sensor using the real PureView technology from the PV 808 to create the best 8MP images ever. Considering that even the Lumia 800 had a 8MP snapper, 16GB memory and an 800x480 display, the new Lumias, aside from the software, aren't much of a progress from their predecessors, and the price range is just ridiculous.

    Nokia could have used the event to come up with something revolutionary different, but in typical Nokia style they blew it with mediocre products that were still half finished and a bad press because of a faked product video. They couldn't even give details as to when the new phones will be available, something that wasn't a problem 5 years ago but is a big no-no in these days.

    1. Shagbag

      Windows Phone 8 IS the problem

      I disagree with you. I think WinPho8 is the problem. The handset is gorgeous but the OS is limiting. I would buy one tomorrow if it came with Android (ICE or JB) but I will not buy one with WinPho. I had a Lumia 800 to try out WinPho. I loved the handset but ended up hating the OS.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Windows Phone 8 IS the problem

        Yep, make the case magnesium alloy rather than plastic, and stick Android on there, and I would be there like a flash.

    2. RICHTO
      Mushroom

      Re: Windows Phone 8 isn't the problem

      But it DOES take the best 8MP pictures ever in a mobile phone. And has the best screen ever also.

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: Windows Phone 8 isn't the problem

        > But it DOES take the best 8MP pictures ever in a mobile phone.

        And the only accessory it needs to take those pictures is a full professional lighting crew and a DSLR.

  34. jnemesh
    FAIL

    Too much going against the platform....

    There is no way Nokia or Microsoft will be successful with Windows Phone 8 at this point in the game. After 2 years on the market, Windows Phone 7 only has 4% or so of the global market. At this point, Microsoft has ONCE AGAIN killed off their existing platform to make a completely new one. (They first did this 2 years ago, killing off Windows Mobile) Yes, WP7 apps will run on WP8 hardware...for whatever that is worth. Most WP7 non-game apps are incredibly crippled compared to similar apps on Android or iOS...some dont work at ALL! (see Spotify, others)

    So now MS and Nokia are once again asking consumers to take a leap of faith that the platform they are buying today will mature before they kill off this in favor of WP9 or whatever else they have coming. They have to take it on faith that WP9 will be compatible with WP8. They have to take it on faith that the major developers out there will make apps at all for the new phones.

    Why would ANYONE want to take this risk??? Typically, it will be at least a year, and more often two years, before you can get another upgrade credit and buy a new phone with a carrier subsidy, so if you buy the wrong phone, you are STUCK WITH IT...or you pay full price ($600-$700) for a new phone.

    Trust me, I know how painful this is...I purchased the Palm Pre right after launch, and waited and waited and waited for it to go mainstream. It never happened. Developers never got on board with the platform.

    It also doesnt help that the SDK is STILL not finalized (or even available to most developers) less than 2 months before the official release! If the devs don't have the tools they need to make the apps, how does Microsoft or Nokia expect there to be any applications available at launch that would wow customers enough to want to buy into the platform?

    Add to this the fact that the hardware and the OS is TOTALLY locked down...no hacking, no tinkering, no customization. You want to load some homebrew software? Aint gonna happen. You want to run an app that the Overlords at Microsoft don't approve of? Tough shit. (NES and arcade emulators will probably never exist on these phones!)

    All of this in ADDITION to the fact that most customers find the interface and design aesthetic obnoxious and ugly.

    I could be totally off base here, but I don't think I am. I think in a year's time we will be seeing all kinds of "analysis" from "experts" about what went wrong. But I can tell you right now, in one simple sentence: Microsoft ignored the feedback that they received from their customers, developers, and partners. In this day and age, that is an unforgivable sin, and they WILL pay for it!

    1. Vince

      Re: Too much going against the platform....

      I'm guessing you're basing your theory that apps (specifically Spotify since you mention it) don't work on never actually trying it and some post/comment from someone having an issue and using this as evidence it doesn't work at all?

      As someone who has Blackberry (9300 Curve), Android (Atrix) and a WP7 (Lumia 710) for starters, I can tell you that your theory is nonsense.

      WP7 is actually quite nice - for some things. The spotify app isn't actually at all bad, and I like *most* aspects of it better than the Android version (it certainly crashers less than Android version in my experience), however I would say that most apps find the WP7 way of doing things with l-r scrolling, over-sized titling etc difficult to master - it's also the area I think I like and hate the most.

      Would I use the WP7 as my primary handset - well no. That goes to the Atrix and is likely to for a good while yet, since the investment I have in its accessories/extras (and which are hard to find elsewhere) is significant and I do actually use them all. There are certainly some areas that WP7 is really badly lacking.

      However I would say it's also not as bad as some tell you, and I certainly am more impressed than I expected. I tend to use whichever phone is best for a given task since nobody has yet gotten it all right. In my case, the Blackberry is hands down the winner for messaging and twitter.

      For facebook, the WP7 and Android share a place but are both less than perfect.

      For general browsing, I use the Atrix, and sometimes the WP7 (it's browser is sometimes just rubbish for a particular site), but never the Blackberry (it's browser really does smack).

      For music, the Blackberry is the best sounding, then the WP7 then the Atrix (and the blackberry dedicated media buttons are still preferable to any other option out there). It's the same reason I recently bought an MP3 player that thinks buttons and not a touchscreen make sense.

      I guess what I'm suggesting is that it does really depend what you want from a phone and most people only want 1 so they will have to pick the thing they want most (or just go with what friends tell them - which right now seems to be "iphone" or "android" irrespective.

      Finally, onto WP8... well we'll see. I'd only touch Nokia hardware that's for sure, but I'm not sure it'll be good enough - but I do agree that if Nokia were making Android handsets, I'd likely still be a Nokia exclusive customer. I still think Nokia could add enough via UI customisation and its own application capabilities to differentiate. Think Amazon Fire vs other Android tablets. Based on the same thing, but different implementation (and before you rant, I'm not suggesting I like the Fire or otherwise - haven't tried it... yet!)

      (FWIW I also own a Motorola Xoom and a Blackberry Playbook, so I'm quite "cross platform").

  35. Steve Todd
    Stop

    I'd hold off on commenting on the quality of the Nokia camera

    Until we see some genuine images from it. They faked both the IS and low light shots with a DSLR.

    1. B4PJS

      Re: I'd hold off on commenting on the quality of the Nokia camera

      Check out The Verge. They have picture samples from the real hardware.

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: I'd hold off on commenting on the quality of the Nokia camera

        > Check out The Verge. They have picture samples from the real hardware.

        Nokia say that the 920 uses f2.0 as part of its ability for low light.

        """Second, we’ve adopted a massive f/2.0 aperture"""

        It is true that f2.0 does let in more light, but it also reduces the depth of field. It is _extremely_ unlikely that those photos were taken at f2.0 by a camera as small as the 920's as the buildings in the background would be completely out of focus.

        It would require f8 or f11 for that depth, and this would then be a several second exposure.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I'd hold off on commenting on the quality of the Nokia camera

          Oh dear. Before commenting on this stuff you really do need to learn some optics. Depth of field isn't just a function of aperture, but of focal length. The shorter the focal length, the greater the DOF. There is more to it than this, but for the kind of optics and resolution we are talking about, it does hold.

          The Minox spy camera had a focal length of 15mm and a fixed aperture of f/3.5, but the DOF was such that you could take any normal outdoor shot without focussing; it was only when -ahem- copying documents that you needed the chain with the measurements on it to focus.

          A camera phone with an aperture of f/2 and a focal length of around 5mm will give roughly the same DOF at the hyperfocal distance as a 35mm camera at f/11, the same value used on fixed focus box cameras/

          1. Richard Plinston

            Re: I'd hold off on commenting on the quality of the Nokia camera

            > Depth of field isn't just a function of aperture, but of focal length. The shorter the focal length, the greater the DOF. There is more to it than this, but for the kind of optics and resolution we are talking about, it does hold.

            There is, as you say, more to than that. A larger sensor, such as a DSLR or similar, will indeed, have a infinite DOF for a 5mm focal length. At that focal length it would be an extreme fish eye. But with a tiny sensor, such as the 920, or indeed most phone cameras, 5mm is equivalent to 35-75mm on a 35mm camera depending on actual crop factor given by the sensor size.

            If you try an online DOF calculator for, say 5mm, f2.0, 8foot subject then selecting a DSLR will certainly give infinite DOF - because it's a fisheye. Select a smaller sensor, such as a Canon A400, which would still be larger than the 920's, and the DOF drops down to 32ft.

  36. Philippe
    FAIL

    Why can't we have normal sizes and colours for phones anymore?

    What is the point of 4.3 to 5 inches screens?

    Yes video, and websurfing, sure, but that's only a very small part of what one does with a smartphone.. Most apps don't benefit that much to be oversized.

    Besides unless you're a girl with a purse or a metrosexual type with a manbag where are you going to put the thing?

    Finally the colours.

    Who the hell wants a bright yellow 4.5 incher on his ear when making a phone call in the Streets?

    Why not pink?

    The WP7 version of these phones didn't sell in Purple but it looks like the finns didn't get the message.

    When you have to keep a phone for 2 years you expect it to be discreet, and that only works if it's dark.

    1. Ocular Sinister
      FAIL

      Re: Why can't we have normal sizes and colours for phones anymore?

      I can only think Nokia are trying to replicate the success they had in the 90s with the swappable covers for their 6220 (I think). They don't seem to realise that the market has matured a lot since then and no-one wants those stupid garish covers any more.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why can't we have normal sizes and colours for phones anymore?

        @Ocular Sinister

        "They don't seem to realise that the market has matured a lot since then and no-one wants those stupid garish covers any more."

        You don't get out much, do you? And you certainly have never visited Asia.

        Repeat after me. USA != World, Europe != World

    2. 404

      Colors

      Just throwing it out there so don't take offense.

      If you're young and missed the 80's, watch "Hot Tub Time Machine". Check the loud colors of apparel etc. All fads and styles come and go, as I have surprisingly gotten much older than I ever believed I would, it's interesting to watch this happen, and each generation thinks it's new. There may be a few variations but the overall different styles and color schemes seem to rotate over the decades. Skirts go up and down, solid colors vs. stripes and (OMFG) plaids. Bright colors vs. dark.

      What I'm getting at is somebody thinks it's time for bright colors to come back. Might be economic in essence, hard times seem to equal darker colors, good/prosperity bring out bright color. Maybe we're coming out of our economic funk? Dunno. Reckon we'll see.

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yes...

    I've watched this launch with interest. I like the Nokia Industrial Design around the N9 and I think these continue it, but what really interests me is the PureView technology. I really want to get my hands on this, and nearly bought an 808 (and I know this isn't the same) because having a decent camera in the phone is quite important to me.

    Having spent the last 9 months with the N9 I've also realised that I don't really need millions of apps. Surprisingly, a half decent web browser lets you do most of what you need, and the minor apps I do need? Well fortunately someone's written them. I'm therefore agnostic on the UI and don't mind whether it's WP, iOS or Android....

  38. Paul Shirley

    won't have it to themselves long enough to win

    One slight problem for that USP. How long do you think it will remain unique?

    Samsung have a camera division that's been building optically stabilised cameras for years. If this really is a killer feature how long till Samsung phones have it grafted on? For a yardstick, a few weeks back Apple told a court it takes Samsung 3 months to catch up with 5 years Apple effort. And there are rumours Samsung were preparing this before the Nokia announcement anyway!

    Sony also have the tech, acquired from Konica Minolta 4-5 years ago and have some pretty good sensor tech of their own.

    Even if you're right Nokia won't have long to milk this USP. With the likely launch dates still far off maybe zero time if Samsung are galvanised into action.

    Another case of announcing 1st in an industry full of early and premature announcements. iPhone5 panic.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: won't have it to themselves long enough to win

      @shirley

      The difference IS, that Nokia has no camera market to defend. Sony and Samsung have very large businesses selling pocket (and other) cameras. Providing too much technology/quality in a phone will canabilise sales from these markets. Corporate internecine wars will ensue. Nokia has no such business to worry about.

      Also, in case you don't know, Nokia has ALWAYS had the best camera technology in their phones. The BOM for a Nokia smartphone has aleways been weighted towards the camera (relative to other manufacturers). "Pretty Good" cameras have been part of their product differentiation. Nokia were always able to do this because their OS (Symbian) did not require CPUs of desktop specification to operate smoothly and effectively. No longer true though, as WP8/iOS/Android are slugs in comparison.

  39. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The New Nokia Europhone

    A big heavy fat slab of yellow, it reminds me of Euro fashion and Euro pop which is about 20 years behind us here.

    The Mullet, still popular in Europe, the songs in the Eurovision Song Contest sung by East Europeans, checked scarves, very tight jeans on men, cowboy boots etc etc.

    This Nokia Europhone will sell well in some parts of Europe, but thankfully the Channel still provides a barrier of sorts.

    1. dogged
      Meh

      Re: The New Nokia Europhone

      It's official.

      The BNP chooses Android.

  40. keithpeter Silver badge
    Windows

    Camera

    "The other show-off feature is the quality of lowlight photography on the new kit, which is outstanding. The new phones take great pictures in near darkness without requiring a flash."

    Now that has got me interested, just slightly.

  41. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We'll see. We'll see.

    Not faulting the logic, Andrew. It's just... it'll be a while before I'll consider nokia again.

    The comedown from upgrading my 6310 to a e52 was still smarts. I wanted a phone with lots of features and I wanted it to give me full access to them, both with easily installed utilities and programmatically. The latter is admittedly a niche, but I was seriously planning to write for it, just to see where I could take it, and if good enough release it. I had the time but little money to spend. Turns out, you're not supposed to want that. At all.

    On top of that, most of the features are only usable in fairly narrowly-defined use-cases; wander outside those and you might as well untick the box to the feature.

    And writing for it? The development environment was pants and completely unsuitable for free software or even just hobbyist writers. The source wasn't available in any usable way or form, despite promises. I mean, shit, a hundred fifty million handsets Out There that run on the freshly released source yet the only thing you are allowed to try it on is... a beagle board. I have better things to run on that, TYVM. RISCOS for one. Certainly not a symbian with spotty beta-quality hardware support, that should be running on a phone in the first place. Then the documentation just up and vanished, leaving shedloads of dead links. And so on, and so forth. They lost a lot of goodwill there. Especially the "not open source, just open for business" bit. That quite literally meant nevermore with the business either, farewell and don't come again.

    Now they sold their phones' souls to redmond, and developing for that is, er, by invitation only? That's enough to not even look at anything else they might have on offer. If I want features, I'll get a feature phone. If I'm getting a smartphone, I want a platform that comes with a free pass that says ACCESS ALL AREAS.

    I know what I want, and I'm not going to get it at nokia, so I won't bother to look.

    Sour? Bitter? Me?

    You bet.

    I said as much right at the start.

    Biased? Me? Absolutely. Yes, that too. A pox on both their houses, I say. But I digress. The point is, I'm but a picky minority, and hey, maybe all those kids who were supposed to flock to those ex-Danger phones, aka the "kin"-fiasco, just maybe they'll pick up on this. Who knows.

    But, you know. I just don't see it happening. I don't see nokia suddenly getting it. I don't see them succeeding despite obvious disinterest from redmond to push this to the limit, for as you noted, they've spread themselves thin. The problem there, too, is that they've painted themselves in a multitude of corners. Their design got plastered on the desktop too, where it doesn't work that well. Why would Joe Enterprise Seatwarmer, hating the thing on his desktop, suddenly get more of same on his phone? Even if it works really well on a touchscreen, honest?

    The design is a statement, certainly. Might even be nokia had a hand in metronotro. They certainly know to show how important font designs are to them. But will it work? More importantly, will people care enough to make it work for them?

    Not me, but disregarding me, who? Julian the Geek? He has a basement full of linux. Franqie Hipster? Why, has apple suddenly become un-hip or something? Eddie Street kid? Doesn't he have like, five blackberries already? Mistah Suitman? With a nice yellow phone to match his suitcase, which is, er, black? Who are they going after, and why? Anyone?

    I don't see it and I don't particularly want to know, but maybe the analysis is mildly entertaining. Now if someone could accidentally leak the marketing strategy documents, we could have a laugh or two. Or maybe we'll get to see it flounder and die. Ah, tragedy is an acquired taste, I hear.

  42. jonfr
    Thumb Down

    Nope

    Nope. I still refuse to buy this phone. It has windows on it. Something that I consider not mobile friendly. Whatever the Microsoft PR makes one want to think.

  43. elsonroa
    Pint

    It just might work...

    So what you're saying is that Nokia need an army of enthusiastic Lumia equipped techheads. The kind who spend most of their lives in the pub showing off their latest gadgets to anyone and everyone. Now all you need to do is persuade Nokia marketing to ditch the poncy faked advertising videos and spend the money on free Lumia phones for all Reg commentards instead!

    Beer (as in free).

    1. Darryl
      Pint

      Re: It just might work...

      Best idea I've heard all week.

      <-- Have another on me

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Those commentards that would take a free microkia phone, that is.

      Didn't they promise a free symbian^5 (or whatever the name was) phone to registered devs after closing the symbian source again? Didn't they promise a free windows phone to same "whenever available"?

      I didn't see that happen. Couldn't even sign up at all, as I recall.

  44. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nah - just too late

    Those who want a shiny will buy the one of choice - S3 or iPhone. Those with a budget will weigh up the droids in the shop and buy the one that balances budget vs shinyness. The techies will buy a G300 :-)

  45. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Good, objective review. Finally.

  46. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    But..

    "But the real stand-outs are two new imaging features. Both are strong and distinctive and useful enough to transcend the phone blogs and become 'pub tricks' and conversation topics for their new owners."

    These are the two features that Nokia has been caught out openly faking ... and given that these phones can't be long away from manufacture (well not if Microsoft actually want phones out there when WP 8 comes out) its pretty worrying and doesn't inspire confidence.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: But..

      Two down votes for pointing out the truth? Nokia have admitted both video and stills are faked ( search for it if you don't believe).

      This phone is weeks away from launch yet at the press release they stopped people playing with them in depth and if they had to fake the video and stills then that implies that their wonderful camera/image tech does not currently work ...

      Nokia and Windows phone have a bad image - this latest gaff can't help.

      1. dogged
        Facepalm

        Re: But..

        Two down votes for pointing out the truth?

        http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/7/3299784/nokia-lumia-920-pureview-camera-hi-res-photos

        The stills are and were legit (see link) and there are numerous live video demonstrations. It's very hard to fake those.

        http://youtu.be/sRMaVNf3zOQ

        You've been taking what Richard Plinston says as the truth again, haven't you? Oh dear.

  47. ted frater
    FAIL

    Any good as a phone?

    Im getting sick and tired of so called analysts commenting about the newest and greatest killer apps from handset makers.

    So ,Nokia?

    Whats it like as a phone?

    whats its battery life?

    whats it like for texting? an onscreen keyboard its useless for folk with large hands

    whats it like in overall pockets on an industrial site?

    Has it a good clear screen one can see in bright sunlight?

    Has it good loud speaker?

    so you can hear it over machinery noise?

    Given a form factor of say 100mm by 75mm clam shell type theyd be room for a decent screen and a proper querty keyboad, with the screen protected when shut.

    Asfor software, a choice from the simplest to a full android experiene.

    No handset maker has addressed my kind of use.

    Till they do the money stays in my pocket.

    I tried to talk to Samsung, couldnt get through and they didnt return my calls

    I wrote to them.They couldnt be arsed to reply.

    I put it to Car phone warehouse, same response.

    Its the same old story.

    Think outside of the envelope and one bangs one head against a wall.

    Take the clockwork radio the original workmate and other items ive forgotten about.

    Tere are tens of thousands of us just in the UK and millions world wide that want such a handset.

    Which maker has the guts to actually ask the customer what would you like?

    I know what I want and why I want it.

    Ill keep using my Nokia 9300 till I find something better.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Any good as a phone?

      Sorry - how dare you suggest that a phone should be practical and be used for making phone calls.... you obviously do not understand the market.

      Phones are a fashion accessory now - why else would they use so much glass which is brittle and not suited for being in a pocket anywhere let alone on an industrial site - both the iPhone and Galaxy S3 break when they fall off coffee tables, sofas or drop out of pockets onto the floor.

      1. ted frater

        Re: Any good as a phone?

        Interestingly, I do understand the market.

        Thats why ive chosen to be outside of it, and,

        only intereact with it when it suits ME.

        Were very fortunate to be independent for everything.

        So Everything in my world is based on results.

        Wether in my home, business, or my personal life.

        If I didnt deliver results in my work I wouldnt be asked to solve other co's engineering problems.

        Results? They really are the bottom line.

        So Form has to follow function in my world.

        what happens in the world of fashion is only of concern when the sheeple follow the latest trend regardless of results, to the exclusion of common sense,and the market panders to them at the expense of real user requirements.

        You and them there welcome to it.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Any good as a phone?

      "whats it like for texting? an onscreen keyboard its useless for folk with large hands"

      It's actually a matter of technique. I have embarrassingly large hands (as in "good luck finding gloves" large). When texting, I use the tip of one index finger at a very slight angle so that the "corner" comes into contact with the screen consistently. Mind, I also use Swiftkey 3, which has really good prediction/correction, which covers up my large error rate pretty wonderfully. On the large-ish screen of the Galaxy S3, it's pretty good.

      (I used to get funny looks using my netbook as a palmtop, though... :( )

    3. Vince
      Happy

      Re: Any good as a phone?

      Talking about the Luia 710...

      "Whats it like as a phone?"

      Reasonable. Doesn't let you setup the full range of conditional diverts. Sound quality good, handsfree usable.

      "whats its battery life?"

      About a day (eg wake up til bed time) with reasonable use, 2 days (same basis) with light use.

      "whats it like for texting? an onscreen keyboard its useless for folk with large hands"

      Not bad, but given your second bit, useless if thats a no-no (although you may not find its as hard as you think, my father is the large hands type and he is managing now we've moved him to a Motoluxe)

      "whats it like in overall pockets on an industrial site?"

      Can't speak specifically for that, but it seems to survive being thrown around by me.

      "Has it a good clear screen one can see in bright sunlight?"

      Good, Yes. Clear, Yes. In bright sun... no. You're spoilt with the 9300 as it has transflective. No such here...

      "Has it good loud speaker?"

      Loud enough. Usual crapness of a speaker applies in a phone.

      "so you can hear it over machinery noise?"

      Depends how long the "machinery" is...

      "Ill keep using my Nokia 9300 till I find something better."

      ...and therein lies your issue. The bar was set on this many years ago and while I gave mine up eventually, and definately think newer devices outstrip it in many ways, there are admittedly some scenarios where the old communicator range still beats the current crop hands down. Sadly they're too niche for people like Nokia to bother with now. Stupidly, Nokia had this smartphone thing done years ago, but screwed up on progression. Which is "the norm" for Nokia.

  48. Boris Winkle
    FAIL

    What a load of paid bullshit and troll downvoting comments

    Apple must be worried...

  49. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ?

    Just go try it... What are you on about?

  50. The humble print monkey
    Pint

    Monkey pixels are a marketing game

    After I had intermediatly dropped my iPhone 3GS, (damaged but not yet dead), I really tried to get an 808; I'm a photographic printer (epson and canon large format, rather than snappy snaps). I print from all kinds of scans and files - drum scans, imacon scans, Hasselblad and phase1, via canon 5d2 through D2x and onto iPhone and the ilk.

    Pixel numbers are a marketing game. Pixel quality is something else (imagine a drinking budget for four people: £100. That gets you three bottles of Veuve, a case of Sancerre from majestic, 25 average London lagers, or a Wapping ton of pseudo-cidre). We all know that the lagers are the optimal drink quality point, unless there is really nice food / company, in which case, the French white tips things.

    I've run A1 (seeing as we are European, best part of a yard high), prints from lowly 4mp (monkey Pixel) cameras (such as Nikon's then flagship D2x), six foot high prints from iPhone 4gs, and larger from real serious (5 series costing) medium format kit.

    These are prints that have been hung in places such as the National Portrait Gallery.

    Where the (back when) ground breaking Canon 5d2 scored highly, was in its pixel count. Unfortunately many snappers used it at >3200iso, and produced noise. At 100iso, it had the potential to rival 6x9cm film (good old 35mm film being 25*36mm)

    Canon and Nikon's most expensive offerings now have less resolution than the 5d2, and their top end compacts have 10-12 mp sensors. And these have dripped in resolution from the precious generatios, a N&K have realised that less can be more. I'd contend (and take the at the bar/Pepsi/ bloody huge print out challenge) that most people don't need more than 8-10 mp, ever.

    Small sensors are inefficient captors of light. Those who claim that they wouldn't want less than twelve monkeys know nothing about image quality.

    I have many thousands of £'s of high end digital camera kit. - I take more pics on my mini (v4s) JFS, of friends, family, and for pleasure, than I do on all the other cameras. The picture quality is good. It prints fine at poster size. I would have loved to get the 808, but I was a few weeks early.

    The pixel count in my pocket, although designed @infinite loop, is definitely in the napa valley class.

    But I did did did want to see what 41 monkeys could do: could they snap the equivalent of to be or...

    1. Davidoff
      FAIL

      Re: Monkey pixels are a marketing game

      "Those who claim that they wouldn't want less than twelve monkeys know nothing about image quality."

      Not wanting to dimish your professional career, but quite frankly that last statement is stupid, and if anything only shows that knowing professional photography doesn't mean you actually understand the smartphone market.

      While I agree that most small sensors are crap, as a professional I assume you know that the resolution is indeed one of the major parameters of an image. It's for sure not the only one, and using the MPx count as sole differentiator is indeed silly. But so is ignoring the sensor resolution completely. At the end of the day, image capturing is a chain that is only as good as its weakest link. I assume you know that.

      And as to smartphone cameras, there is a reason why the ones that produce the best images are the PV 808 and still the (in smartphone terms pretty antique) Nokia N8, and not one of the standard 8Mpx snappers in the latest set of phones. Leaving aside the PV808 (which still is a bit of an extreme), the next best contender is a device from 2010! The reason this is because Nokia got everything right: adequate resolution (12MPx) even for larger prints, large sensor, (especially for a smart phone) good optics, and good image processing.

      Additionally, resolution is also not just about large printouts, it's about capturing details. For the type of images I take, details are important. Your mileage may vary, but for me the 50% difference in resolution between a 8MPx snapper and a 12MPx snapper is clearly noticeable. So the MPx count of a sensor is not completely irrelevant as you have suggested. And no, carrying a separate camera around is simply not an option. And why should I when the technology is clearly there to have that in a smartphone?

      For the new Lumias, Nokia now settled for a tiny 8MPx sensor (the same one that's found in other current smart phones), with some image stabilizing and low light gimmick in the 920. The measly sensor data alone makes it very unlikely that the images will come even close to those that a 2010 N8 can shoot. You may not care but for me that is rather poor for a new high end smart phone in the 600EUR price range. Especially when considering that this barely better than the previous Lumias and several steps back from their 2010 top end smartphone.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Up

      It's the lens...

      A bit of standard optics theory reveals that what really matters is the lens. If you have a 12MPx ccd, but the resolution is diffraction-limited, it is just willy waving. Most of those phone sensors are around the 5mm wide mark, which with 12MPx means that a pixel is about 1000nM wide. The wavelength of red light is about 600nM. You don't need to be a genius to realise that the slightest lens fault is going to result in significant image spread, bringing down the effective resolution. Anything over 8MPx on a small phone camera is pointless.

      Nokia have experimented with very big sensors but of course that also implies a large lens with a long focal length, so an very thin phone is impossible. That's why their serious camera phone has a big bulge on the back. That's also why thin phones like the iPhone, many of the Androids, and the Blackberry 9900, have rather poor cameras. In optics, bigger is, design and manufacturing quality being equal, always better.

  51. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    i too gravitate toward the 820

    But don't call the colour "Lipstick Red" FFS! I will only buy it if i can get it in "Mars, the God of War Red".

  52. SpitefulGOD

    As a phone

    If its anything like WP7 then its more responsive than android, has a better keyboard than iPhone and apparently has a great battery. The phone on WP7 is super fast although I would suggest the keypad is visible by default

  53. Blitterbug
    Happy

    Nicely put Mr O

    ...A welcome, well-balanced coverage so far from Mr. O. on this topic. We can agree on quite a bit when it's not freetard, BBC or global warming bashing!

  54. Phoenix50
    Thumb Up

    Having read many of your articles Andrew, I found myself agreeing with most of this one.

    But as an aside - that "Notro" thing you do is starting to tire in the same way as the Mico$oft's of old. Give it up, please - you've already stated Microsoft are highly unlikely to move away from it any time soon - so how's about you just accept it and move on?

    1. Paul Shirley

      Apparently you slept through Microsoft announcing the ui would no longer be called Metro... or noticing Not Metro shortens to Notro. Microsoft fanboism taken to a new low to whine about this!

  55. Anonymous Coward
    Mushroom

    3 articles in a row??

    Dear Andrew, get over it, no one cares about WP8...never in its history Nokia had to fake publicity and now, with the Lumia 920 did it twice...compare it with the publicity for the 808 PureView, a SYMBIAN phone...

  56. Tommy Pock

    Offline

    Built-in downloadable maps, with turn-based SatNav containing road speed information and warnings - that was my killer feature right there. Did I mention the SatNav even works in aeroplane mode?

    1. Vic

      Re: Offline

      > Did I mention the SatNav even works in aeroplane mode?

      ...As it does on my tatty old HTC Desire...

      Vic.

  57. SpitefulGOD

    @tommy that features on all Nokia wp7 phones anywho

  58. Morten Bjoernsvik
    Thumb Down

    The apps

    Appstore > 500K, Android Play > 500K, Nokia MarketPlace ~ 80K, WP marketplace ~ 100K

    Is Nokia symbian apps? or just a clone of WP marketplace?

    Why should anyone develop for Nokia and WP when they only hold around 2% of the market.

    This is already a lost battle. RIP Nokia(^D^D^D^D^D Microsoft Phone Subsidiary)

    1. Ilgaz

      Re: The apps

      Symbian developers packed and went to Android, not win phone as Android allows their apps to be ported.

      X-plore etc are all going fine with Android now. They aren't direct ports too, they provide a real Android experience.

    2. RICHTO
      Mushroom

      Re: The apps

      Actually they over doubled market share in the last year with WP, and application development is accelerating. It took 14 months to get the first 50,000 apps on WP, but then only another 5 months to get to 100,000.

      For the record that is quicker than Android took to get to 100,000. This shows the great success of the WP platform.

      With WP8, it likely will continue to grow market share at a steep rate.

  59. Ilgaz

    The UI seems impressive

    Never used win phone but it seems tile thing impressed everyone therefore there is "win 7" launcher, locker and keyboard on Android.

    Guys, the design of Android from ground up guarantees that you can't race with it in UI & UX department. Its customization level is at Linux level. Even beyond that since even a 8 year old can change system default shell.

  60. Mr.President

    I, for one, like what I'm seeing. I'm a two year iPhone 4 user with a Macbook (so I'm a bit locked in and not really looking to upgrade) but that still strikes me as a genuinely decent phone. If I were in the market for one then it would definitely be a contender unless iPhone 5 offers something mindblowing.

    It will be curious to see how the new phone OS integrates with Win8; if it does so well and Win8 actually manages to take off then they could make a very decent combo in the way that iPhone + OSX work well together. Most people aren't fully aware of that and it's definitely something that they could leverage. Android has no such integration to my knowledge.

  61. Archean

    I got my first droid retiring my 3GS (moved to iOS from WinMO), few years ago. But I think it is the most regretable of decisions I made. Because despite the fact that I always went for the higher end droid (at least of its time, e.g. Desire/SGS/SGSII/Sensation/SGSIII to name few) I never found a stable / solidly performing android phone. They all suffered from random crashes, reboots, slugghishness, hang ups (and I only install 4/5 apps I need nothing more). They all have various annoying quirks as well, e.g. SGS III doesn't want to find any WiFi network at times, folders on homescreen will randomly open at their own etc. IMHO almost all droids I owned had great hardware, but a crappy OS.

    Few months ago, I got my hands on Lumia 800 and used it along side my Sensation/SGS III for 2+ months; and my views about WP totally changed. It easily outperforms all those multicore droids with its dated single core SoC, being asolutely rock solid, and very easy to use UI (unlike androids copycat of iOS).

    So it is time again to jump ship, only thing to decide is should I get ATIV S or Lumia 920 (though I'm tilting toward the later due to better support / upgrade cycle of Nokia compared to Samsung).

  62. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yeah great - launch the phone no-one has heard about the week before the phone everyone knows / wants. In a week all the talk will be about the new iPhone and NOT about this - regardless how good it may or may not be.

  63. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's brave to invest in this when Android and iOS have so much of a head start. From a developer point of view it's a small market - you are certainly going to do iOS first, then Android then 'others' - from a user point of view you have fewer apps available and probably later to get the new ones - not great either way.

    WP8 could get a boost as manufacturers move away from Android. If I were an Android OEM I'd be worried about too much dominance by Samsung and Motorola being part of Google now.

  64. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Down the pub - "hi mate what's that" - oh it's my new Nokia...

    <laughter>

    <more laughter>

    It's like trying to convince your mates after they have drunk 3-4 pints that it's actually cool to drink this no-alcohol lager-water. They have their Androids and iPhones already and really does this do much more than anything we already have - ok the wireless charging is a nice gimmick but in reality I drop my iPhone onto a dock at night - job done - so for me it's little value and to charge it at work guess I need another charge-pad or it probably charges conventionally as well...?

    1. RICHTO
      Mushroom

      Until you show them a perfect sharp and bright photo of their drunken antics in a darkened night club on your Lumia, versus motion blurred and barely visibile photos in the same conditions with their phones....

      1. Richard Plinston

        > Until you show them a perfect sharp and bright photo of their drunken antics in a darkened night club on your Lumia, versus motion blurred and barely visibile photos in the same conditions with their phones....

        There are only two ways of getting 'bright' photos in a darkened area. One is to have a big 'window', the lens, that lets in lots of light, (which apparently the 920 does not have) the other is to let in the light for a long time, possibly seconds rather than fractions of a second. OIS will help with the latter in stabilising the image by moving the lens or the sensor to compensate for some of the movement of the device.

        However, OIS will _NOT_ compensate for the movement of the subjects and their drunken antics. Anything that is not rigidly stationary for a second or two (or five) will still just be a blur.

        I have taken long exposure photos in a museum and people walking through the frame didn't even show in the photo.

        Of course the other way to do this is with flash or flood lights, just like the 'samples' used.

  65. Andus McCoatover
    Windows

    My N8-00...

    ..running Belle seems to knock the socks off them there Lumia-whatsits. Responsive enough, plus - GOSH!! - I can put an extra memory card in it! Who'd have believed it in this day and age? The foreskin ^W forefront of modern technology!!

    Haven't really had much play with an N9, but read reasonable reports...seems like an OK phone, the few minutes I played with it in the shop.

    Dunno? Am I missing something, or should I get my ancient Trimphone out of the garage....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: My N8-00...

      This whole thing of adding your own memory cards - perhaps it's useful for some people but for most people they just don't care - 16Gb base is going to be sufficient for most.

  66. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "MS just tries again"

    Who remembers the MS HPC2000-based product range and how soon HPC2000 was abandoned by MS?

    Who remembers the MS PocketPC-based product range and how soon PocketPC was abandoned by MS?

    Who will remember the Windows Phone-based product range, after it is abandoned by MS?

    1. RICHTO
      Mushroom

      Re: "MS just tries again"

      Me - I remember and used both those platforms. WP is by far the best yet.

      I would imagine that as Microsoft previously had an over 50% share of the Smartphone market with Windows Mobile that i'm not alone in remembering them either....

  67. Danny 5
    Happy

    lumia900 user here!

    I've been promoting it since the day i got it. If anything, this is the best device if you live in a Microsoft world.

    I have company email, which is Exchange, almost a given nowadays.

    I have hotmail, which belongs to Microsoft.

    I have an Xbox360, all my stuffs from there is on the phone too.

    Everything works happily side by side and it was a breeze to set everything up.

    I think Nokia/Microsoft need to put more focus on consumers, as i personally think they have the business side down pat.

    To put this in perspective, i've always had much love for Nokia and have been working in the wonderfull world of Microsoft for almost 15 years now, so it makes sense for me to follow this path.

  68. durbans
    Megaphone

    Consumers, not techies, are what really counts...

    We all like to debate the pros and cons of various mobile OS'es, and we all love/hate a particular brand and get up on our fanboy pedestal to promote our favourite platform.

    It's worth mentioning however that we are probably less than 1% of the total consumer base for smartphones. The vast majority of people want a phone that 'just works' (to quote a famous fruit) and looks good to their eye.

    My girlfriend bought a Lumia 800 (sim-free) a few months back to replace her aging iPhone 3G. She is in her late 20's and is your average consumer when it comes to tech. She started showing her friends the Lumia she'd just bought and told me yesterday that now, 5 of her friends are using a Lumia 800, and another is planning on upgrading soon to a Lumia. That is the power of consumerism.

    Now I can already imagine the replies saying they've bought a dead platform, blah blah blah. You know what? They either don't know or don't care. My better half was upset when I told her that Windows Phone 8 will not be coming to her phone, but soon stopped caring when she realised that she would get the 7.8 update, which essentially is all the new features of WP8 which her hardware can support. Including full support for all WP8 apps (that don't use the new WP8 hardware features). In reality, she is missing out on nothing.

    1. Richard Plinston

      Re: Consumers, not techies, are what really counts...

      > she would get the 7.8 update, which essentially is all the new features of WP8 which her hardware can support.

      That is not true. The only 'feature' announced for 7.8 is a cosmetic update to the tiles. In particular it will have different sizes and a few extra colours.

      > Including full support for all WP8 apps (that don't use the new WP8 hardware features).

      That is completely untrue. WP8 apps will _NOT_ run on any WP7.x. It seems that the SDK will not even allow a back port once an app has been designated as WP8.

      1. durbans

        Re: Consumers, not techies, are what really counts...

        OK, I've just found this quote from Redmond....

        "New applications compiled specifically for Windows Phone 8 will not be made available for Windows Phone 7.x devices."

        I stand corrected. Apologies, I obviously got myself mixed up with the forwards compatibility from WP7.x to WP8. This is definitely a problem for existing users, depending on their needs and app requirements. I hope the major app providers will continue to update the WP7.x apps for the average replacement cycle of a smartphone (2 years-ish in my case).

        And fair enough on the second point, but what other interesting features are coming to WP8 that aren't hardware related?

    2. Richard Plinston

      Re: Consumers, not techies, are what really counts...

      > Including full support for all WP8 apps

      Further to my previous post, here is what MS says:

      """Longer answer, courtesy of a Microsoft spokesperson:

      "We are designing Windows Phone 8 with the goal of allowing all existing applications in the Windows Phone Marketplace to work on Windows Phone 8 devices. We will also be working closely with key developer partners to create versions of applications that take advantage of some of the new features available in Windows Phone 8.

      "New applications compiled specifically for Windows Phone 8 will not be made available for Windows Phone 7.x devices." """

      http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsofts-windows-phone-8-finally-gets-a-real-windows-core/12975

  69. RICHTO
    Mushroom

    Not having any updates to the latest version never harmed half of the Android market....Or Apple where features like Siri are not back dated.

    1. Richard Plinston

      > Not having any updates to the latest version never harmed half of the Android market

      No, that did not, but then the latest apps run fine on, say, version 2.2.

      It is not the lack of an update to WP8 that will hurt, it is that newer apps will not run - by design.

  70. asdf
    Trollface

    lol

    "Careful readers will note the change in tone between my two filings that morning - before the second, I was contacted by Microsoft and or Nokia representatives with a very lucrative offer." There fixed it for ya. Just kidding of course.

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