back to article Beeb rescues old Who episodes

The BBC has announced that two of the “missing” 1960s-era Dr Who episodes have turned up and been added to the Beeb’s archives. The latest recoveries, the first since 2004, made their way somehow from Australia to the BBC via Southampton. Like most broadcasters, the BBC had trouble storing bulky pre-digital recordings of …

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  1. Gary F

    There is still hope

    In the future we could send a FTL probe out into space which would overtake the 1960's TV broadcast which is still travelling out into space and capture it. It would probably make it the most expensive TV episode aired in history when it's rebroadcast.

    1. LaeMing
      Happy

      In the future,

      we may be able to send travelers back in time with a PVR.

      1. Tezfair
        Coat

        In the future...

        Someone decided that early episodes were really crap and went back in time and wiped them

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          In the future...

          Someone decided a lot of the new series is also really crap and went back in time and wiped them.

      2. Homer 1
        Pirate

        Re: In the future,

        "we may be able to send travelers back in time with a PVR."

        But if someone from our future COULD travel back into our past, to do something highly palpable like this, then surely it's already happened and we'd already be aware of the event.

        So either time travel isn't possible, or doing so rips the traveller from one time-line into another, and can thus never affect past events in his time-line of origin - he can only become part of the present in another.

        Our best chance of recovering these lost broadcasts is either figuring out how to overtake and capture the radio signals in space, or hoping that some "pirate" has already recorded them.

        Looks like an excellent argument for "piracy", if you ask me.

        1. Wize

          "we may be able to send travelers back in time with a PVR."

          By the time we get time travel technology, we wont have anything that could record analogue TV.

        2. ravenviz Silver badge
          Coat

          Yes, some sort of time bandit...

        3. LaeMing
          Happy

          @Homer1

          They may be able to protect the timeline if they don't release the PVR recording until they get back (hence having no effect on history - they may have been there, but since we don't know about it, no history-breaking ret-coning is needed).

          Which is why we don't get to see the episodes yet.

          Except the ones they - in a fit of sympathy - 'accidentally' dropped off in an attic recently.

    2. mark 63 Silver badge

      Could do , but just in case FTL dosent get invented , we should rely on as yet undiscovered alien races to record it for us an case we were dumb enough to lose our own copies.

      We should etch on our probes , next to the gallileo picture " please record any TV we missed "

      Although god knows what theyd think. When all the 50s sci-fi gets there it'll probably be taken as:

      "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough!"

      1. Simon Neill

        But...

        How do we tell the aliens to record it?

        For all we know they will take one look at it and go to defcon 1 in case the timelords in our documentory come to get them.

      2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: undiscovered aliens

        The likelihood of these aliens being at a similar phase of development to us is fairly small, bordering on negligibile.

        Therefore, if they actually exist and are sufficiently interested to record Dr Who for us, the most likely scenario is that the've been aware of us for the whole of human history and have recorded the last ten thousand years of human history as part of their own research into developing civilisations, much as we do with "primitive tribes". (That's not a fly on the wall over there. It's a nuclear powered space-going autonomous bugging device.)

        If so, past episodes of Dr Who will be in the same archive as "Julius Caesar's last day in the Senate", "an apple falls on Newton's head" and "Moses brings some tablets down from the mountain".

        1. Tiny Iota
          Joke

          Moses doesn't want tablets...

          ...he wants iPads

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "fairly small, bordering on negligibile."

          But the universe is infinite. So there are probably some aliens around somewhere.

          (cue X-Files music)

  2. Wombling_Free
    FAIL

    Yes, we censor EVERYTHING. Still do. It's the AUSSIE WAY! OI! OI! OI!

    The Goodies - censored.

    Dr.Who - censored.

    Aunty Jack - censored (and the ABC produced it!)

    The Great Austfailian Prudism continues to this day, with censorship of games, films and TV shows continuing unabated.

    Beating horses with sticks, however, is celebrated as a 'national sport' suitable for viewing by all, and refusal to view said beating of horses (with occasional shooting-to-death of horses) is a crime under the 'UNAUSTRALIAN CONDUCT' laws.

    Unfortunately, despite that fact that I find ALL of our politicians extremely offensive, they remain free to blather incoherently at all hours, and I am not allowed to beat any with sticks.

    1. Graham Marsden
      Unhappy

      Strewth mate...

      ... What a bunch of wowsers!

    2. LaeMing

      The biggest irony...

      ...is that about a year ago some scientists showed that whipping a race-horse actually makes it slower.

      Hitting an animal while they are trying to run makes them slower. Who'd have thunk!?

    3. Urh
      WTF?

      What I found most amusing...

      ...is the ABC's reasoning behind their heavy censorship of The Goodies. Apparently it was in an attempt to make it more suitable for children.

    4. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
      Gimp

      Here's a clue...

      ...as to why it was censored: http://wifeinspace.com/2011/06/the-underwater-menace/ (scroll down to "Episode Two")

    5. trog-oz

      The may have censored Dr Who & The Goodies, but we did have Number 96. Who can forget Abigail as Bev Houghton and Deborah Gray as Miss Hemingway? Dribble! Dribble!

    6. NightFox

      Confused.

      So, after 40-odd years these censored tapes, long thought lost forever, come to light and the National Archives of Australia manages to restore them to their original cut? How? Does the NAA hold some massive archive of all the bits it's ever cut out of every censored TV show ever, maybe for release as a sordid compilation DVD one Christmas when it deems the Australian public ready?

      Or does it hold a complete archive of all the Doctor Whos in their full glory, and it's just that no-one ever thought to ask them? "Marco Polo? No problem mate, it's just there behind Fury from the Deep"

      1. DJ Smiley

        Well I doubt it was SENT to ABC ready cut.... and as far as I'm aware, back then if you wanted to edit it, you'd likely be directly editing the film. I presume they copied it some how, and cut up a copy. Keeping the original safe...

        which then got sold to this guy... who brought it home. How romantic ;)

        1. NightFox

          @DJ Smiley But my reading of the article is that this bloke recently discovered the censored edition of the tape, and now ABC are restoring the cut sections? So what are they restoring it from?

      2. PaulM 1

        Yes the Australians cut 10 seconds here and 10 seconds there from many Dr Who episodes and then carefully filed them away. These are the only film clips available from many Dr Who episodes.

        The BBC had several film copies of every black and white Doctor Who episode and so the need to reuse magnetic tapes was not an issue in the destruction of Doctor Who episodes. Most of these episodes were destroyed because the chinless wonders who ran the BBC at the time did not see the films as having any value. It is notable that the BBC did not destroy a single classical music program from the 1960s.

    7. AdamWill
      Joke

      try it, mate

      "Unfortunately, despite that fact that I find ALL of our politicians extremely offensive, they remain free to blather incoherently at all hours, and I am not allowed to beat any with sticks."

      Give it a shot anyway. I'm sure no jury would convict.

    8. Grease Monkey Silver badge

      Crikey, Bruce. What happened to the no pooftas rule?

  3. Paul L Daniels
    Thumb Up

    Good news... the episodes are coming back to us anyhow...

    From space....

    http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm

    1. jai

      intergalactic tivo! :)

      In space, no one can hear you scream... above the cacophony of 50's sci-fi television episode signals colliding with last years reality-tv broadcasts

    2. Sandy Ritchie

      d'oh!

      Nearly had me there, until I scanned the page again, April 1st.... d'oh!

    3. Stevey
      Unhappy

      Date?

      Umm... date of the article?

    4. samwisethecat
      Pint

      good news

      one of the better april fools

  4. Zack Mollusc
    WTF?

    Okay, I know that Dr Who had to work within a tight budget (for a show which had to deal with sci fi themes), but surely the cost of creating a show dwarfed the cost of keeping a recording on a shelf?

    What was the reasoning? "Blast! We don't have £20 for a blank tape, let's record over this old show. We can always spend £50,000 reshooting the original later"?

    1. Trygve Henriksen

      lots of reasons...

      Storage space...

      Unions... You know that when BBC made a show the contract with the actors didn't allow them to use the recording for more than 2 years? Why should they keep the tapes after that time?

      Video recordings were 'not good'... and slowly wiped themselves anyway, so why not reuse the tapes? (All copies sent abroad were sent as film, not video tapes. Not just because video faded, but because of incompatible standards. The buyer were then required to either return or destroy the film after use. Thankfully, not everyone was too dilligent in that task)

      "It's not really culture, so who cares?" Yes... that was a sentiment of the times.

    2. JimmyPage Silver badge
      Stop

      ISTR reading

      this wasn't your bog standard 4-for-a-tenner VHS cassette-type VT. It was *very* expensive reel-to-reel type stuff. They simply could not afford not to re-use it.

    3. Simon Neill

      Pfft.

      £50k. Thats nothing.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jul/16/moon-landing-tapes-erased

    4. David Shaw
      Coat

      when I was a marconi apprentice

      in 1978, we managed to blag a Marconi broadcast video camera and a video recorder together the size of a Fiat cinquecento. I think the tapes - in the seventies - were well over twenty quid each, we certainly only had one tape at Springfield Place. Who have them now?

      With tachyonic hindsight the Beeb *should* have filmed every DrWho, not wiped the tapes, true - but who could ever tell Auntie what to do!

    5. Grease Monkey Silver badge

      From what I understand it was more about storage than the cost of tape. Have you seen the size of the old VTs? Imagine how much storage space you would need for several years worth of broadcast TV.

      When storage space got tight the BBC took a decision on what would actually have future value. There was no such thing back then as commercial DVD (or VHS or whatever) releases and the BBC didn't think there would be any demand for repeats of old B&W sci-fi. OK so they made the wrong decision, but they made it based on the information they had at the time.

    6. ScottAS2
      Unhappy

      This title was wiped as a cost-saving measure

      Firstly, tapes were much more expensive in those days - hundreds of pounds for a single tape, not twenty quid. When my dad was at Grampian in the early seventies, the station's *entire tape library* was about two dozen one-hour tapes.

      The second reason was that Equity was against repeats - unlike a stage show, a TV show could be repeated without involving any actors, depriving them of their livelihoods. They thus had high fees negotiated for repeats beyond an initial few showings, which means that your comment about reshooting for £50K is closer to the truth than you may realise - with the amount a repeat would have cost, you might as well shoot something new.

      In the BBC's case this was exacerbated by the fact that there was a conflict between two departments - the Engineering Division, who recorded the program on videotape and stored it until broadcast, and BBC Enterprises, who transferred programs to film (because it was cheaper and universally-used) to flog to other countries. Both felt that long term archival was the other's job, and thus neither invested in the infrastructure to store programs in any format. As a result, stuff just got wiped or thrown out - by Engineering because they wanted to re-use the tape; by Enterprises because they'd sold it to everyone they could, and didn't want cans of film cluttering up the place.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Need to justify that budget... ie, license fee.

    8. Vulch
      Headmaster

      30 years ago (I was employed as a VT engineer at TV Centre around the Tom Baker/Peter Davison changeover) it was nearer 120 quid per tape, plus warehouse and racking to store them. If anything the tapes had got cheaper over the previous 15 years.

      And what could you do with the tapes later?At the time the standard artists contract for TV programmes allowed for the original transmission plus two repeats. If a third repeat was wanted then all the original cast had to be found (not always easy for extras), asked for their permission and paid the same fee again. This meant that third repeats cost nearly as much as new programming would, and new programmes cut down on the "There's nothing on but repeats" whinging.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Headmaster

        Cost of 2" Quad

        @Vulch As you say, by the late 70's it was much cheaper though £120 in 1980 is still approx £450 today. But they were far more expensive in the 60's. Hard to imagine today that a single tape format would have a 25 year+ working life!

        By the way, I trust you appear in one of the VT Christmas tapes!

        1. Vulch

          Unfortunately I joined a year to late for "White Powder Christmas" and "Good King Memorex (No Royalty except in the title)". I did point out Brian Barwick, former chief exec of the FA, in the Suzie Quantel number "He's a Sports PA" from one of them recently though...

    9. GatesFanbois
      Facepalm

      I think....

      it was more a case of the unions sticking their oar in. Basically they thought if old shows were kept in perpituity then they would just repeat old shows instead of making new ones therefore not creating new jobs for actors. So as a result a bunch were destroyed. A bit silly really and it wasn't just doctor who it happened to either.

    10. Robert Ramsay
      Unhappy

      In that case...

      You'll not want to find out what happened to most of "Not Only But Also"...

    11. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I think they didn't recon that the show got back to be so popular again. You can't keep everything stored, at least not in those times.

    12. kissingthecarpet
      Facepalm

      You are joking?

      "£20 for a blank tape" - in the early 60's? You sure about that?

      According to Wikipedia's "Wiping" article, they used 2" Quadruplex tape that was expensive & bulky. The sort of people who ran TV in that era probably regarded most TV as ephemeral, & barely worth preserving.

    13. teacake

      Two down, 100ish to go

      @Paul L. Daniels

      "Good News... the episodes are coming back to us anyhow..."

      One has to assume, since you're not providing this link on April 1st yourself, that you didn't notice the publishing date on that article.

      @Zack Mollusc

      It was the start of the colour era. They assumed nobody would be interested in them there old-fashioned black and white programmes any more.

    14. Jedit Silver badge
      Facepalm

      No

      The reasoning was "Well, we've aired and repeated that episode and sold it to foreign markets, so we don't need it any more". Doctor Who was light entertainment, not a classic for the ages.

    15. juice

      It's not the cost of storing the tapes...

      But the cost of the tapes themselves. Remember, this was all back in the 1960s:

      (http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/preserving.shtml?chapter=8)

      "When videotape was introduced into the BBC back in the '60s it was very expensive. The machine to replay it on was the price of a very expensive Rolls Royce, and the tape itself cost the price of a Mini."

      Another article suggests the tapes cost around £200 apiece, which in today's money is somewhere around £3500!

      It's therefore not too surprising that they were taping over older, "lower-value" recordings - after all, you couldn't just nip to Staples to grab a ten-pack of blank tapes!

    16. samwisethecat
      FAIL

      Cost of tapes

      It was not the cot of the tapes that was to expensive, but the cost of the storage. The BBC and other production companies at the time just didn't have the spare space to store the hundreds of thousands of tapes from all productions in a secure controlled environment.

    17. Anonymous Coward
      Headmaster

      @ Zack Mollusc

      The problem was tapes were so expensive that they had to be reused. However film copies were struck for overseas sales and viewing. However the BBC had no coherent archiving policy and film recordings were junked or never recalled from foreign TV stations once they had reached the end of their useful life (as colour TV was phased in, the demand for b/w material dropped).

      Meanwhile Equity priced actor repeat fees so highly for UK showings (so their members wouldn't lose work from repeats being shown) it was nearly as expensive to just make a new show. If there was no market for repeats there was no point in keeping the episodes.

      Incidentally while there is a hell of alot of Who missing (106 episodes), it actually fares quite well. There are series that ran the duration of the 60's that are missing in their entirety and there are episodes of Top of the Pops missing right up to 1977! Who by comparison has a complete run of stories from Patrick Troughtons final outing, The War Games, in 1969 (although there's not a complete run on PAL tape until 1974).

    18. wondermouse

      I imagine the reasoning went something like:

      We have loads of old black and white stuff on 2" video tape. In this age of colour TV no one would ever want to see those again. In addition they take up miles of expensive storage. If we record over them we save on our tape budget and free up space too....

      If the situation with Doctor Who is appalling, then early Top Of The Pops is even worse. Almost nothing exists of early TOTP - no Beatles, 1 performance by The Stones, a rehearsal take of Sandie Shaw and so on, because no-one high up in the Beeb realised just how important pop music would prove to be.

      Ironically I think every TV News bulletin has been kept, because news is "important".

      Luckily the germans preserved Beat Club and Beat Beat Beat so we still have some pop.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Urban legnd

    This echoes back to the great unresolved question from my student days - was there really an episode which was never broadcast called "Dr. Who and the Hardons"?

    1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
      Coat

      He probably has a Large Hardon Collider tucked away in a TARDIS room somewhere as well.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Headmaster

    These are not tapes

    These are not tapes that have been recovered. They are 16mm film copies of the original tapes.

    Although Doctor Who was recorded on tape from day 1 in 1963, 2" Quad was so expensive it had to be reused. An old BBC VT engineer told me that in the mid 60's half hour of tape cost about 2 grand in todays money. So tapes had to be reused for their use to make economic sense. Think he said the aim was to reuse a tape 4 or 5 times for it to pay.

    Who would be routinely copied to 16mm film (or occasionally 35mm) after recording (or even sometimes during transmission). This was because film was cheap, easy to handle and could be sent all over the world for resale without having to worry about lots of different TV formats or the fact that some places didn't have access to Quad players. Back in the UK it was also handy for viewing copies for internal use as it didn't need expensive equipment to be played back (if you thought the tapes were expensive, they were nothing compared to the machines).

    It's quite lucky Doctor Who was an international hit from very early on as episodes have turned up all over the world, all thanks to the 16mm prints being sent all over the place.

    Hopefully more will turn up, but as the years go by the finds are getting less frequent. Only one episode of 60's Who was never copied to film so is totally lost so fingers crossed!

    As an anorak note (as if this post isn't nerdy enough) the first original 2" PAL videotape that survives for Who is episode 1 of the Ambassadors of Death broadcast in March 1970.

  7. John G Imrie

    but surely the cost of creating a show dwarfed the cost of keeping a recording on a shelf

    The storage cost was not the problem.

    Tape was ridiculously expensive in those days and reusing it was standard procedure, add the fact that most TV iwas broadcast live, with some OB tape thrown in to the mix when a major costume change was needed, and a lot of the early TV has gone missing.

    I do however like the fact the the BBC keeps appealing for people who illegally copied the programs to come forward and help fill the gaps in their archive.

  8. Rogan Paneer

    Keep looking, please

    Good news. Now, if someone can only unearth the first series of 'A for Andromeda' ...

  9. TonyHoyle

    Storage space..

    The BBC produced thousands of hours of output back then, and it was all on physical tape. Anyway, why keep episodes of a low budget scifi show that you never intend to repeat?

  10. Winkypop Silver badge
    Alien

    Theatre of the mind

    Maybe one day well be able to capture our memories.

    I still have a few fragments that might be usable....

    Dr Who scared the be-jesus out of me as a kid.

  11. Ed 16

    re Good news... the episodes are coming back to us anyhow... #

    I take it everyone looked at the date on that article, made me chuckle..

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Zack, I imagine that space was a bigger issue than cost

    See above

  13. Andrew Underhill
    Big Brother

    Reverse the Polarity?

    It always worked for the Doctor. That'll get the missing episodes back.

  14. Mystic Megabyte
    Happy

    "so if we could send some neutrinos in the right direction and recapture VHF signals"

    Don't forget to change the polarity, that usually works.

  15. Wyccant

    any list of missing episodes? I bet I have a couple in the attic.

    1. phuzz Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      @wyccant

      there's a list here:

      http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Missing_episode#List_of_missing_episodes

  16. Benchops
    Mushroom

    Reverse the polarity... etc.

    We don't need time travel, just FTL travel (which may or may not mean the same thing). The original broadcasts are still dissipating out from the earth, all we need to do is overtake them and record /the original broadcast/ again.

    Only problem will be when a ship finally makes it and picks up the signal, they won't know how to decode the analog UHF (VHF in early 60s?) signal to record it to their Domesday Project laser video disc. ;)

  17. Godwhacker

    They're never coming back.

    Those episodes were all destroyed in the Time War

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Underwater Menace - oh dear

    Why's it never Power of the Daleks or Web of Fear?

  19. Christian Berger

    Tapes don't wipe themselves

    That's an urban myth, what can happen to tapes is that some sort of chemical reaction forces some compound into places where it shouldn't be. (like between the layers of tape)

    So tapes from the 1950s are, when stored properly, still perfectly playable.

    1. hplasm
      Pint

      Not quite- no.

      Google 'print-through'.

      it's similar to how tapes used to be high speed copied.

      The signal bleeds from one layer of the tape to the next, over time.

      On audio, the effect starts as pre-echo, and is minimised by spooling though occasionally, to shake things up a bit, and by storing tail out... IIRC, with the mag layer facing out...or in- whichever was better.

      (it IS Sat night...so beer!)

  20. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge
    Joke

    But, couldn't they just ask the doctor?

    ........................................

    What!? You mean it's not real?

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Headmaster

    Aussie Censor

    The Aussie censor physically spliced the offending material from the 16mm film itself and for some reason retained the spliced film. Presumably to make sure the pinkos down at the TV station couldn't reinstate any cut footage.

    1. Vulch

      In theory the 16mm prints were only on loan and had to be returned intact after the relevant number of transmissions. If an overseas broadcaster did take the scissors to a print, they had to hang on to the outtakes so they could be glued back in later.

      1. Grease Monkey Silver badge

        @Vulch that is absolutely spot on. What worries me about Aunty in these cases is that she rented out these prints with specific instructions that they must be returned and then didn't chase up their return.

        I was talking to somebody at the BBC about a totally different show which was almost entirely lost and he told me that they only had one 16mm print of each of the episodes for almost the whole series. These prints were loaned to another broadcaster and they were never returned and apparently nobody noticed they were missing until almost twenty years later. They're an organised bunch at the BBC.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    sorry but unbearable

    I have tried watching some of these old lost eps and while there is sometimes a moment where a dim and distant memory is tweaked they are otherwise thunderously boring and dull .

    If they showed them on TV again first the DVD sales would be zero.

    1. Local Group
      Alert

      Thunderously boring and dull

      Mon Dieu

    2. Grease Monkey Silver badge

      WTF?

      You've tried watching the lost episodes? Have you got your own TARDIS? Do you think they might be called lost episodes for a reason? Something to do with their being lost perhaps?

  23. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    Silly old BBC

    That sort of thing couldn't happen now.

    Instead all the TV episodes locked with DRM will be lost when the distribution company with the key server goes bust.

    Or you wont be able to broadcast them anyway because of some background music that a competing corporation owns the rights for.

    1. Grease Monkey Silver badge

      Must be some weird Who DVDs in your collection. All mine play fine without connecting to any key server. Or maybe you're just talking arse.

  24. Alan Brown Silver badge

    Self-erasing tapes - not a myth.

    Older tapes are okish but more modern ones (60s-90s) tended to have poor hysteresis values and can be self-wiped by adjacent layers of tape (increasing hiss on audio, decreasing image fidelity on video) - especially cheap brands which were often all that could be afforded by starving artist types.

    Many of the older VHS/Beta tapes I made with friends (music videos and recordings of concerts we played at 30+ years ago) are virtually unwatchable(*) except as memory joggers. Umatic and larger formats tended to survive better due to the lower magnetic density of the tapes and thicker bases - that's why stuff recovered from stations is generally of better quality once cleaned up.

    (*) We got complimented at the time by the local TV company about the production quality of our VHS submissions - most locally produced non-film material which came in was completely unusable for broadcast without spending hours genlocking every scene change. When they discovered we were shooting/editing on u-matic and then dropping down to VHS for submission the techs were very impressed.

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