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MPs slam HMRC's 'deeply worrying' lack of post-Brexit customs system

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Re: @codejunky

@AC

"I don't see how people airing their views on the mess the leavers have created is "trying to get in the way of brexit.""

Thats fine, that is the expected as we get with elections as we let off steam about a result we dont like. But legal challenges to stop the result being carried out is. As is unelected party members undermining the government. As is elected party members undermining the government. Add the ongoing propaganda campaign and constant misinformation (just read what I have been replying to on this topic) with repeated attempts to get a second referendum to undo the not yet implemented result of the previous referendum. Those are attempts to get in the way of brexit. We knew the referendum had the possibility of leave when it was proposed yet right now is this customs issue. Why? Is it the gov or civil service dragging their feet on this? And why? The result is known, hard brexit is very well expected so why?

"Yes, hilarious. So much so I was in danger of splitting my sides, which could've been life threatening if it weren't for that extra £350m/week the NHS are now getting."

The official leave campaign was almost as bad as the official remain campaign I know. What has that to do with Farage? He didnt campaign on that, the £350m could be given to the NHS was the official campaigns claim.

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Re: @codejunky

@Codejunky - He pissed off the EU by turning up as an elected MEP and bursting their bubble. It was funny to watch. Junkers face was a picture when he asked the dumb question of why Farage was there now that we had voted leave.

I saw that performance - it demonstrated just how stupid he was!

If you look back at the fundamental issue - which Farage campaigned on for many years, it was a UK domestic issue, namely Parliament (potentially?) going beyond its remit and signing up to the various EU treaties without gaining the consent(?) of the British electorate. He also accepted the 1975 referendum result and thus wanted a trade agreement with the EU.

In this situation, the EU was a potential friend to Farage! Played correctly Farage could have got the EU on his side and laughing at the clowns in Westminster and negotiated a favourable deal whilst the UK sorts it's "mother of Parliaments" out. Instead, with this act, he both diminished himself and the UK and soured the atmosphere for the Brexit negotiations.

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Re: @codejunky

"the £350m could be given to the NHS was the official campaigns claim"

Yes, but that's not true either. (And to be more correct, the campaign didn't use the word "could".)

No more true than stating that unicorns COULD arrive tomorrow.

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Re: @codejunky

@ anonymous boring coward

"Yes, but that's not true either. (And to be more correct, the campaign didn't use the word "could".)"

I know. It was the usual politician speak or also known as duping the electorate. Its in a similar vain as Carney and Osborne claiming that everything the UK has been trying to achieve since 2008 is suddenly bad. Both official campaigns were awful.

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Holmes

"A failed customs system could lead to huge disruption for businesses,"

Indeed. Who could have foreseen that (see icon) ?

What are the two things we know about all government specific IT systems?

1) The rules they have to implement are under constant change. From Ministers, lobbyists, the EU, the WTO etc etc.

2) Outsourced IT seem to go for the most rigid system they can with the most amount of rules hard coded in the logic.

We all know why they do this. It means more change requests which normally (because they pretty much wrote the contract, not the UKG) means more money,

Admittedly this one will be tougher because it's a)Got a hard deadline and b)The rules being moved to are (literally) unknown. Nope. Not a clue. Somewhere between current (but not exactly) rule set and up to (and including) full WTO tariffs.

In fact I'm not sure if the current rules implemented within CHIEFS (in ICL 4GL dating from the 70's) are fully documented.

But that doesn't matter because the UK is "Taking Back Control (C Linton Kwesi Crosby 2017) and because deep down..

<gollum>

We wants it

We needs it.

We must have hard brexit

</gollum>

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Re: "A failed customs system could lead to huge disruption for businesses,"

In fact I'm not sure if the current rules implemented within CHIEFS (in ICL 4GL dating from the 70's) are fully documented.

But surely one of the selling points of ApplicationMaster was that it was self-documenting if used correctly?

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IT Angle

"But surely..selling point of ApplicationMaster.. was self-documenting if used correctly?"

Which of course begs the question was it used correctly?

I don't know what ApplicationMaster is capable of as I was not on the project, as I had not been conceived at the time it was built.

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Remainers need to explain...

what they're going to do about this gigantic mess they've landed us in. No sign of one yet...

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Re: Remainers need to explain...

Remainers need to explain? What, exactly? Remainers didn't cause this problem - Brexiteers did.

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Re: Remainers need to explain...

They should have made more of an effort.

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Re: Remainers need to explain...

I was going to answer that in some depth, but after a look through the comments you've plastered all over El Reg, I think it would be pointless to even try to get through to you.

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Happy

Re: Remainers need to explain...

@Laura Kerr - I took the original comment as sarcasm. Referencing the tendency of Leave voters to not take responsibility and blame everyone else, especially those who voted Remain, but not themselves for the current state-of-affairs. So u-t was just getting in before the crowd.

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Re: Remainers need to explain...

My bad, I took it seriously - I've obviously been reading too many comments on the BBC website. Pity spEak You're bRanes is no longer with us.

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ZSn

Re: Remainers need to explain...

In which case I suggest that you never read the comments section of the Daily Mail. It'll cause an aneurysm. It's over there on the right - the far right.

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Re: Remainers need to explain...

Simplest option is to book 17 million seats on Ryanair to Port Stanley, or failing that convert our aircraft carriers to cattle boats for the trip. Then we have another referendum and withdraw A50. Everyone's happy.

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Re: Remainers need to explain...

>I've obviously been reading too many comments on the BBC website.

Totally understand - it is scary reading the comments on the BBC and other websites; are people really as stupid as their comments make them appear?

Mind you occasionally, you do get some real gems.

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There is a fall back: just wave stuff through unchecked. It should also solve the Irish border problem.

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"There is a fall back: just wave stuff through unchecked. It should also solve the Irish border problem."

Ermm, then you've got even more of a single market than as a member of the EU. Not sure that's quite the idea behind Brexit.

Anyway, if by that time the UK's trading under WTO arrangements it won't be possible to wave stuff from the EU through unchecked as that would give preferential treatment to EU goods, which is against WTO rules. Then you would have to wave all imports, from all countries, through. In which case the UK steel industry will be killed off instantly by Chinese imports, to give just one example. And it would deprive the UK government of revenue from import duties.

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Anonymous Coward

There is a fall back: just wave stuff through unchecked

Worked for the US when Bill Clinton didn't get round to signing the continuation of the visa waiver scheme, for many months people were allowed in without visas on their own recognisance.

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@H

Eventually pragmatism takes over. You've got several boatloads of HGVs in Dover harbour all queuing for clearance, all available berths occupied by ferries that haven't yet discharged because there's no room for them to do so and another approaching. What do you do. Wave them onto the A2 and tell them to park until you get round to them? Then tell them to move up a bit further? On to the M2? What happens when the queue gets to the M25? At some point you have to realise that you're never going to be able to process stuff and stop pretending you can. You just check 1 in N as some sort of gesture.

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Would these be european lorries with european drivers?

Would they be licensed to operate in the UK?

Better hurry up, you have <18 months to agree a deal about which commercial driving licenses apply cross border and what standards trucks have to meet.

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"Better hurry up, you have <18 months to agree a deal ..."

Not sure, but I think that's dealt with by the UN Economic Commission for Europe

https://www.unece.org/info/ece-homepage.html

Incidentally, unlike the EU, this body does not have a parliament directly elected by citizens of the member states. And it probably employs lots of unelected bureaucrats too :) Now, what was that about Taking back Control? Another referendum to leave the UN? (https://www.unece.org/mission.html : UNECE's major aim is to promote pan-European economic integration.)

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Trollface

Loan/rent Kent to the EU

Then you can have a massive staging area with distributed customs clearance centres along both sides of the M2/A2 and also a working model for a soft border which would then be applicable to Ireland.

Do it all on paper, then key it in later.

Remember, people, there's a war on!

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Re: Loan/rent Kent to the EU

Genius.

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Yes, but

it will be worth it to regain our sovereignty.

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Anonymous Coward

Wait a second. Where's the balance?

Do the EU/France have the customs system in place to deal with brexit?

Surely if we are having problems then they will as well.

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Anonymous Coward

>Do the EU/France have the customs system in place to deal with brexit?

A bit of an issue of scale. We require 1 system for all our trade with France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Ireland, Denmark, etc. They require one system per country for a portion of our trade. If one (or more) of their systems fail, it does not affect trade to the other countries. If ours fail, we have a major problem.

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Do the EU/France have the customs system in place to deal with brexit?

No - so they could be denied timely deliveries of English wine

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Panic not

I'm sure Crapita or some other group will turn up to bodge it for a sky high price

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On a less contentious note

Does this mean we can top all this metric nonsense and go back to proper units ?

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Re: On a less contentious note

No, metrication started in the 1970s or so, that was separate from EC/EU stuff. Incidentally industry is almost entirely metric now - would you like to force them to go back? And which proper units do you mean? E.g. the English-imperialist acre or the noble Scottish oxgang?

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Re: On a less contentious note

But this wasn't about the Eu - it was about taking back control and being able to negotiate with the USA as equals.

Although the DUP may insist on adopting the cubit as YHVH intended

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Anonymous Coward

Optional title

So we had a referendum and one side won. Now the losing side (mainly millennials if we believe the statistics) can't cope. I'm heartily sick of the constant whingeing of the millennials about Brexit. Maybe it's because our education system insisted that everyone wins in case someone gets upset and doesn't like it. So people are struggling to cope with not getting the answer they wanted. They go on and on like Private Fraser in Dad's Army "we're doomed, we're all doomed", or Senna in Up Pompeii "woe, woe and thrice woe" (showing my age there). My wife says there are two types of people, glass half full and glass half empty. I counter that there's a third, those that can't even find the bl00dy glass.

Please get a grip. The vote was to leave, we're leaving. Please try to find just a bit of positivity. Go on say it "I'm positive it will be a disaster". Thank you Private Fraser (stupid boy).

Further I object most strongly the the oft mooted Brexiters are all senile racists line.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Optional title

Your reference points mark you right in the core demographics for an old person, which of course means that you're statistically likely to be in favour of Brexit even if you aren't senile. Also you are waving your walking stick at "millenials" as though you know what the word means, but "young people" in this situation is anyone under fifty, which is not just millenials by any stretch.

Not all Leave voters are racist, but all the racists voted leave.

So you may not all be senile racists, but you're certainly senile-adjacent and evidently content to be in racist company.

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Re: Optional title

Further I object most strongly the the oft mooted Brexiters are all senile racists line.

I agree, that's totally untrue. There aren't 17 million senile racists in the country. How about we say "Brexiteers are almost all senile and/or racists" It's the only way to account for a lemming-like urge to commit national suicide.

Remainers will continue to fight to save our country from the insanity of the Quitlings.

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Unhappy

"(showing my age there)."

Only if you saw them in the original B&W.

Which I rather think you did.

"Further I object most strongly the the oft mooted Brexiters are all senile racists line."

That was more an impression of all those Daily Heil editorials and the Leave leadership I think.

There really was something quite funny about people who didn't want furriners wanting to bar Europeans but happy to have a whole load more of a whole lot more darker skinned folk from the former colonies. Utterly non-sensical to the point of delusion.

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Re: "(showing my age there)."

@ John Smith 19

"That was more an impression of all those Daily Heil editorials and the Leave leadership I think."

I am amazed you think 52% of the population get their information from that one paper. What paper do you read that tells you that?

"There really was something quite funny about people who didn't want furriners wanting to bar Europeans but happy to have a whole load more of a whole lot more darker skinned folk from the former colonies. Utterly non-sensical to the point of delusion."

I agree. And again I only ever hear these arguments from racists (rarely hear them) and remainers (scarily frequent). I have been concerned since the referendum that both these groups would get together with a common cause to close up the UK, one thinking its for our own good and one to watch the country burn.

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Re: Optional title

"I object most strongly the the oft mooted Brexiters are all senile"

Ironically, you seem to confirm that.

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Anonymous Coward

The Pensioners

I never quite understand why no-one has noticed that the many UK pensioners in Spain spend their pensions in Spain. There is no way the Spanish will throw them out, It would decimate their service industries in the nice warm Mediterranean areas, or maybe they don't think they have enough unemployment? Plus, all that pension cash would be spent in the UK.

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Re: The Pensioners

And it's not like pensioners run up expensive health care costs.

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Finally

Good news for leave voters. The EU is finally coming around to the fact that we are leaving. While they seem to have been slow on the uptake they appear to realise we will not be in the EU and therefore not under the EU (who would have thought leave would mean that?!? Apart from anyone with a brain).

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-trade-barnier-dashes-britains-hopes-of-something-better-than-canada-deal/

Even more unsurprising (I would hope) the EU is starting to realise that trade is a mutual thing and an FTA would be a good idea. They now think a Canada style standard FTA might be the way to go.

I guess now we just have to see how long it takes for this realisation to be translated into giving their negotiators the freedom to negotiate.

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Coat

Welcome to Kent, formerly the "Garden of England"

Now the "Truck Park of Britain."

Please switch off your engines ASAP and make your way to one of the designated Customs Offices/Short stay motels.

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