back to article Firefox doesn't need to be No 1 – and that's OK, 'cos it's falling off a cliff

Just in case you didn't believe Firefox was on a trajectory that should have it crash and burn into extinction in the next couple of years, former chief technology officer Andreas Gal has usage stats that confirm it. To use Gal's words: "Firefox market share is falling off a cliff." The same could be said of Firefox itself. …

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  1. Christian Berger

    If they'd only stop making the GUI less and less usable...

    ... and focus on actual improvements like having a simple way to replace externally loaded Javscript, so it will no longer be stalling to resolve DNS queries when loading external ressources.

    Or to put it in marketing terms: You cannot win by trying to be a bad copy of Chrome. People who like Chrome use Chrome. People who don't like Chrome use, for example, Firefox. My trying to emulate all the bad features of Chrome, you will eventually loose your core market.

  2. Permidion

    Firefox is already broken

    it is still my main browser, mind you,

    but I use it:

    - with auto-update disabled, to prevent it from breaking yet another extension without warning,

    - with Classic Theme Restorer, because if I wanted to use something that looked like Chrome, I would be using Chrome, seriously ....

    that said, im not going to change, because the few time I use Chrome it make me want to murder the Google marketing retards who take the decision of commanding dev to produce such a simplified crapple like product.

  3. ForthIsNotDead

    Been using Opera for a while...

    ...Stylish, fast, lean, has a built in (free) VPN, private browsing, data saving mode for mobile connections ...the list goes on.

  4. rh587

    "at the same time that Firefox is sliding into irrelevancy it's becoming a better browser. It's faster than it's ever been and uses less memory – less than its replacement, Chrome."

    Citation required methinks. The best way to test a browser's efficiency is to make it run on restricted hardware. On my venerable 2008 Macbook (with RAM and SSD upgrade), my preferred Firefox hees and haws whilst Chrome is snappy and responsive. Sad to say there is no contest.

    On my main machines I run a combination of Vivaldi and Firefox. I should note that Vivaldi isn't actually a whole lot better. The actual Vivaldi process is slim, but then it spawns lots of helpers. In any case, you'd be hard pressed to back up the assertion that Firefox is appreciably more efficient than Chrome or Chromium-based browsers. And they badly lagged behind on multi-threading and other technologies.

    Like many others I avoid Chrome for it's all-in-one bar, lack of decent menus and general unfriendly UI, and have become frustrated with Mozilla's efforts to turn Firefox into a Gecko-based Chrome-a-like.

    For the privacy minded, Brave is worth a look (I've only used it on iOS, not got around to taking the desktop version for a spin). Chromium based with ad-blockers built in as standard.

  5. Stevie

    Bah!

    The author makes many valid points, but the last part of the article reveals that he is not Joe Average, but a browser-collecting tech twonk.

    Most people want to use one browser, and get pretty fucking fed up when that one browser suddenly undergoes a tectonic-level upgrade that makes it useless for the stuff they use t for. Yes, I'm speaking of the "you can't have java and that's an end to it" lack of choice decision, that forced me into using IE for remote linking to my job.

    Now one might say that this was a sensible move, based entirely on security concerns. To which I would respond "Then why the fuck was Flash left in when it too was flagged as a security hazard in the release notes for Firefox fuck-you edition?"

    In short, Firefox has put *me* in the undesired position of becoming a browser collector too.

    1. Greg D
      Thumb Up

      Re: Bah!

      I cannot upvote you enough!

      I now have to use 3 browsers on my work machine, and at least 2 at home. I hate it. I just want ONE FUCKING BROWSER TO CONTROL EVERYTHING. IS THAT SO DAMN HARD. Sorry for caps (not really).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bah!

        "IS THAT SO DAMN HARD."

        HELL YES!!!

        Simply because one browser CANNOT fit all. For example, what if you're running very expensive equipment that MUST use Flash to work? Flash is an eternal security exploit, yet if going without means your business is in big trouble, what's the lesser evil. What if more people LIKE the Hamburger Menu than dislike it but don't talk because, you know, squeaky wheels (me, personally, I don't mind it as I don't see what all the fuss is about, plus there's always the Alt key)?

        Frankly, I'm getting tired of all the complaints. If you want the browser you want so badly, why don't you take one and fork your own version? Beggars can't be choosers, after all. Better yet, why not do what Opera did back in the old days and SELL your browser? For REAL MONEY? Or does Opera's history tell you what the maximum asking price for a browser is, in spite of the fact that developing serious software costs time and money no matter what?

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Bah!

      You've still got Java if you dive into about:config.

      (See my post above.)

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bah!

      One reason is Mozilla too became obsessed with the most consumer end of the market - and actively crippled the browser so it couldn't be any longer useful in business environments. They removed Java because it's very little used in pure consumer systems. Flash had to stay, because the number of crappy consumer sites using Flash is still high.

      Same for SSLv3 - it's insecure, yes, but you may have the damned old system you can't still replace nor upgrade that needs it. It's utterly stupid just to say, contemptuously "ask your web master to upgrade SSL" - as if older appliances had a "web master".... you just show you have a very narrow view of all the use cases a browser is used within.

      The fact you could no longer access your expensive systems consoles inside a management LAN never touched their minds - the browser is just a consumer tool to consume silly contents around the consumer Internet only.

      What they didn't understand was that Google controls both endpoints, and it's mostly interested users use its own sites, and its browser is just another way to bring users to them. Mozilla made a big mistake blindly following Google on a path set by the latter.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bah!

        "What they didn't understand was that Google controls both endpoints, and it's mostly interested users use its own sites, and its browser is just another way to bring users to them. Mozilla made a big mistake blindly following Google on a path set by the latter."

        I don't think they had much of a choice. Google was stealing most of their userbase, and without that userbase, where would they get the sponsorship dollars they'd need to keep going?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No. Just no

    "...at the same time that Firefox is sliding into irrelevancy it's becoming a better browser. It's faster than it's ever been and uses less memory – less than its replacement, Chrome."

    Bollocks. Sorry, but as an ardent Firefox user for the last 5-6 years, my experience is the complete opposite. Even with Flash disabled, I often find FF slowing to an unusable crawl on sites like Techradar, Quora, Tom's Hardware etc. To the point where there's a 4-5 second lag just trying to scroll down the page and even longer to close a laggy tab. That's even if I only have 2-3 tabs open.

    Occasionally it might mention a not responding script, but clicking the stop the script button doesn't really result in any kind of improvement.

    Opening the same tab in Chrome doesn't throw any problems.

    H/W is a 5th Gen i5 on the laptop with 12GB RAM and 6th Gen i7-6700K with 32GB RAM. So I wouldn't really care if FF used a bit more RAM, as long as it delivered a slick responsive experience. At the moment I miss the stability and robustness FF used to have - even with 40+ tabs open.

    1. Charles 9

      Re: No. Just no

      I call bollocks ON the bollocks because I can surf to the exact same sites you describe, simultaneously with multiple tabs, and not get a hitch, and I only have 8GB versus your 12. And I just double-checked my Task Manager. Between all its processes (foreground and background), it's only using about 500MB with all the jazz open.

  7. Greg D

    FF is faster than Chrome now?

    I better give it another try. The ONLY reason I switched is because FF was the slowest browser in all respects out of all of them, and with the largest memory footprint. Even Edge has the edge over FF in speed (or had).

    For me it always is and will be a technical issue. Whichever is the fastest on modern hardware is the one I'll use.

  8. LeoP

    Times, they are a'changing

    I hated IE in its high times - with a biblical intensity. FF was my thing.

    Along came Chrome, and I liked it for casual browsing (i.e. ElReg)

    Now I need to run a VM with WIndows and IE, if I want to use iLO consoles.

    The only constant: Vendors don't care shit about users:

    MS: Use a browser, that won't run on anything other than Windows

    Google: All your data are belong to us

    Firefox: Because we want.

    It's a joke of history, that MS is the only one of them treating me as an adult, who is able to distinquish between an iLO console and a dodgy ad.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Firefox has gone full retard ever since it started chasing version numbers

    I would still recommend Firefox over that monstrosity known as Microsoft Edge.

    If you like Firefox but don't want the official version, try Pale Moon, an excellent forked version of Firefox.

    If you want Mozilla nostalgia: Seamonkey.

    Good browsers based on Chromium: Opera, Advanced Chrome, Yandex.

    New kid on the block: Vivaldi.

    Windows Safari is inferior to OSX Safari, so I'm not inclined to recommend Safari for Windows users.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Firefox has gone full retard ever since it started chasing version numbers

      If you want Mozilla nostalgia a browser and a client for email, RSS, Usenet, calendar and IRC: Seamonkey.

      I wish LibreOffice would just take it over and put a bit of development nous into it.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I have noticed that for around the last year or so that Firefox is much slower at loading up, and seems unresponsive for the first 5-10 secs of appearing. Especially when you try typing in the address or search bar, it stutters.

    This behaviour happens on all my machines regardless of how fast they are. My Intel Celeron 2957u with 2GB of ram reacts the same as my Intel i7 6820HK with 16gb ram and a NVMe drive.

    How can this be? Makes me think something is wrong somewhere. I have Chrome at work and this loads up in a flash, although I prefer Firefox I cannot agree it's fast.

  11. sitta_europea Silver badge

    I ditched Firefox when it got to fifteen seconds to save a bookmark on a Quad i7 with 4GB RAM.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I don't understand why someone would cripple an i7 with just 4GB of RAM...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      if it took you fifteen seconds to save a bookmark then there is something seriously broken with your pc, not Firefox's fault.

  12. heyrick Silver badge

    Firefox is dead

    They're killing off XUL extensions and looking to do the nowhere-near-as-capable WebExtensions.

    In other words, it'll mutate into a second rate Chrome clone. WTF? If we wanted Chrome we'd already be using it.

    https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2016/11/23/add-ons-in-2017/

  13. MJI Silver badge
    Pirate

    I use

    Firefox with Classic Theme Restorer and do not like Chrome, for a start where is the search box?

    Oh and my video recorders came from the factories of Sony and Sanyo as well. 1 portable and 2 HiFi sound, well those are 2 VCRs which can be identified and a 3rd guessable.

    1. WatAWorld

      Re: I use

      "do not like Chrome, for a start where is the search box?"

      In the URL box. Just overtype the URL. Or open a new tab and type in your search.

      1. CRConrad

        Re: "for a start where is the search box?"

        WatAWorld wrote: "In the URL box. Just overtype the URL. Or open a new tab and type in your search."

        Yeah, just like on Firefox. The original poster must live even more in the past than I do; why have another text box up there when a single one has done both jobs for I don't know how many years now?

        1. Charles 9

          Re: "for a start where is the search box?"

          How does the "one dialog box to rule them all" know the difference between GOING to a URL and SEARCHING for a URL when both will look pretty much the same?

  14. Andy Non Silver badge
    Meh

    Can't say I'm loyal to Firefox

    it just seems to do what I want. It is reasonably fast, secure, doesn't spy on me or my browsing habits and it allows me to download add-ons to block adverts and unwanted scripts. The UI is customisable enough for my needs. I'd be sad to lose Firefox if it fell all the way off the cliffs onto the rocks below, but if there are any other browsers out there that can provide all the same features I'd be happy to give them a go.

  15. 0laf

    I like FF I really do. TBH I the internet without no-script and Ad-block it pretty much unrecognisable to me I've ran them for so long. But Mozilla has produced a few stinking releases and some recently. I nearly dropped FF a few months ago that release was just so bad with memory leaks and slow performance.

    I hate Google's snooping, Edge is crap as well, Opera seems to be trying to make itself annoying. If FF goes it'll be some Chrome fork or Vivaldi I suppose.

  16. c1ue

    Firefix used to be nice, but...

    I use all 3 browsers simultaneously - each for a different purpose.

    Firefox was my primary reading browser. I didn't like the way all sorts of auto-plays would appear on Google, and Firefox with no flash or anything enabled was just fine. Then that changed.

    This inability to opt-out plus being a memory hog (I have to kill and restart every day or two otherwise the firefox process jumps over 1Gb - even if I'm not actively using it) is why Firefox is teetering on the brink for me.

    Equally unconvinced that Firefox spied "less" than anyone else. Certainly when I browse a product on any of the 3 browsers, I wind up seeing ads of that product in all 3 browsers. Interesting when I don't have an active Google login on 2 of them...

  17. IGnatius T Foobar
    Meh

    ABM

    Firefox is good, Chrome is good, basically anything that keeps Microsoft's browser share down in the non-threatening range is good.

    1. Slow Dog
      Holmes

      Re: ABM

      Chrome is a marketing tool for Google. If you do not mind selling out and becoming a product, use that. Edge blatantly sucks. We won't go into why, there is not enough space to elaborate here. Firefox could be great, but it is getting stale in it's old age. Waterfox takes the Mozilla code and compiles it for 64 bits. Then, the bad things are taken out. What we are left with is a beautiful browser that is lightning fast and will not sell you out. It takes all the Firefox plugs. It can be completely customized. There is a rich feature set that is sure to be enough to please the most die hard alternative users out there. It is the most stable fork of Mozilla going and as long as Microsoft code runs my machines, Waterfox will be my default browser. After 2020, when the boxen move to Linus Mint, that will probably change unless Waterfox gets ported to Linux...

      1. King Jack
        Thumb Up

        Re: ABM

        Thanks for the WaterFox tip. It does run on Linux.

  18. steve 124

    yea we know

    I've seen the writing on the wall since they started stripping add-ons and especially with the latest versions not supporting java, this is not good.

    Now, I know java is a big insecure pos, but I've got plenty of beefed up security to compensate for it. Since by default, checking the version of firefox initiates an upgrade (yes, I know it can be turned off) most of my users at work have the updated version and we're constantly telling them "yea, for this site you'll need to use IE or Chrome". We just got them trained to use firefox and now we have to tell them that.

    I miss things like my youtube easy download add-on and many other things they've taken away from us lately.

    It's a bit like helmets and seatbelts. I think they are a good idea and that everyone should wear one, but I also think you're all big kids and if you want to take a chance, it's your life. My browser should not dictate how or what I can use on the internet, even trying to protect me. Some of the choices FF has made over the past few versions makes me wonder, wtf.

    1. Charles 9

      Re: yea we know

      "It's a bit like helmets and seatbelts. I think they are a good idea and that everyone should wear one, but I also think you're all big kids and if you want to take a chance, it's your life."

      NO, because no man is an island, and your life has an effect on everyone else, so disregard for oneself is by extension disregard for EVERYONE: bad for society.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Maybe Firefox is better now, but Chrome was by far and away the best browser available for a number of years.

    Switching back to find out if that is true is just too much hassle.

  20. davidp231

    Of course it's an engineering problem... and it's been getting worse and worse over the years... ie getting more bloated and less user friendly, dumbed down to the point where in the future they want to use Chrome as a base, like Opera did.

  21. Mage Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Firefox's decline is not an engineering problem

    Dear Mozilla,

    It *IS* on the GUI. You have made it crap.

    Print selection STILL throws a page printed with header and footer for every page before the selection.

    In trying to be like Chrome you make FF irrelevant.

    You also have practically abandoned the logical companion, Thunderbird, apart from making GUI worse.

    You've wasted effort on a Mobile OS.

    You've taken on creepy "Pocket Service".

    You've got stupid defaults on privacy, third party cookies, new tab, URL bar "guessing" and Search drop down. Most people can't be bothered to install Classic Theme Restorer. It should not be needed.

    Why do I need to add User agent switcher, cookie / identity manager and NoScript?

    Yes, Google's marketing of Chrome is despicable, but IMO Mozilla HAS got an engineering and management problem. They are "fixing" the wrong things.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Google - It is getting worse for us

    http://www.alphr.com/google/1006417/google-autoplay-videos-search?_mout=1&utm_campaign=alphr_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&tpid=247421303275

    Now that want to 'autoplay' videos on their search results.

    Google is EVIL I tell you, EVIL. Avoid at all costs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Google - It is getting worse for us

      If you think that's bad, refer to Yahoo Mail, which autoplays a video whenever you've emptied your trash bin.

      Also, the sponsored ads plastered on the inbox navigation menu.

      All this happened during Marissa Mayer's stint as Yahoo CEO. It's entirely on her.

      Sure, you can install add-ons and plugins, and do some tweaking to disable that. But the corporate greed to monetize everything and push-feed advertising everywhere is getting riduculous.

      P.S: I genuinely despise websites which autoplay videos, especially with the audio on by default. Certain well-known news websites are guilty of this. Show some respect and etiquette, you website coders.

      P.P.S: I also despise websites which do not allow readers to save a printer-friendly HTML version of their articles. Many news websites are guilty of this after a 'website layout revamp'.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Google - It is getting worse for us

        "If you think that's bad, refer to Yahoo Mail, which autoplays a video whenever you've emptied your trash bin."

        Well, if you will insist on webmail....

    2. WatAWorld

      Re: Google - It is getting worse for us

      "Google is EVIL I tell you, EVIL. Avoid at all costs."

      It's like Linux fanbois blaming MS for Linux's failure to attracting customers amongst either the general population or on desktops and laptops of regular business users. If MS being evil was a problem people would be fleeing TO Linux (or, if money didn't matter, Apple).

      The article is about why customers have fled FF and aren't returning. Your theory that it has to do with Google being evil doesn't fit reality.

      The theory that Google is a hidden evil that people are generally ignorant of doesn't make sense either, since their supposed evil has to do with advertising that everyone sees everywhere in their products.

      People know about the advertising, but they choose to see it as either non-evil or less evil.

      Remember that outside of IT a large percentage of the population works in retail, marketing, or sales, and even tradespeople are generally aware that their own employers and their own jobs depend on advertising. People don't see themselves as being evil. They usually find undirected shotgun advertising a timewaster, but they don't see advertising as 'evil'.

      Certainly Google's advertising (even on Youtube) is not as bothersome as what we get on TV.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Google - It is getting worse for us

        "Remember that outside of IT a large percentage of the population works in retail, marketing, or sales, and even tradespeople are generally aware that their own employers and their own jobs depend on advertising."

        I think we're into irregular verb country here:

        I send out valuable marketing messages

        You nag

        He, she or it spams.

        I wonder just how many people in the advertising industry itself use adblockers because other peoples' ads are so annoying. Not their own, of course - a serious lack of self-awareness would see to that.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Firefox isnt getting better in my experience

    It's still managing to crash my PC every now and then, and more frequently than that, crashes itself, this on Linux Mint. And it;s slow. Mozilla needs to just fix the friggin' thing and then stop buggering around with it. I used to love Firefox, but nowadays it really annoys me, and I only stick with it because I can;t stand Google and thus avoid Chrome as much as I can.

  24. emullinsabq
    Facepalm

    left FF in 2017

    mostly.. I use two browsers (the post that complained FF forced him into becoming a browser collector, I find completely accurate)

    Pale Moon now handles most of my browsing needs. It has undergone exactly one update in the months I've been running it, and didn't screw with the browsing experience.

    I actually use FF ESR still. I like to separate browsing between logged into [YT, google+, etc] accounts versus anonymous. So FF contains at most 5 tabs, all of which are logged in activities. I don't even open that one every day, and it's slowly becoming rarer to do so.

    The rest of the time, it's PM-- for the foreseeable future too.

    The article's assertion that Google marketing is responsible is ridiculous. Good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I read that, because I laughed pretty hard.

  25. Alan W. Rateliff, II

    It's Google's fault, blah blah blah

    While NOT arguing against Google "Do No Evil" (or whatever) aggressiveness for a second, I feel it incumbent upon me to point out that a big enemy of Firefox is Firefox. I see this when I look back through articles about changes being made which users do not particular like but trudge along because there is nothing better.

    Well, Chrome is here. May not be better than Firefox, but it does seem to be far less aggravating for users.

  26. Howard Hanek
    Happy

    The World Needs More Than.....An Alphabet

    No future at all for open source eh? Making a lot of assumptions based on current conditions ignoring any possible trends propelled by powerful forces is the trade mark of a rapidly declining market.

  27. Michael Habel

    Golly geee

    Do they still think that hijacking the Homepage, New Tab, and removing the old style Download list was a great idea? In any case I can deal with the new Download Tool. But, forcing their crap Homepage on Mobile with absolutely no PC Standard way to simply set this back to https://www.google.com. was more than enough reason to abandon that Browser.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I still use IE6. Nothing else comes close.

    It's the fastest, most feature-rich browser out there, and it provides a real-life pragamatic implementation of the web standards that matter, rather than the 'developed in a vacuum' approach pushed by so-called web 'academic' 'experts' who know nothing of the real world.

    ActiveX - probably the cleverest technology since Flash - allows me and others to unleash the full power of my machine without the pointless limitations imposed by virtual machines; and don't forget, IE6 is one of the few actively maintained browsers to properly support the blink and marquee tags.

    So it's no wonder Firefox is failing. I'm just mystified how it got traction in the first place.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: I still use IE6. Nothing else comes close.

      Please accept an upvote for your skilful use of satire.

  29. Colin Tree

    trust

    I've used Firefox since it was Netscape, I trust it.

    Mozilla will be 20 next year, it used to drag behind IE

    and the competition has always been rough,

    there's a lot at stake making a window to the internet

    because it is so lucrative to control that many people.

  30. Slow Dog
    Holmes

    Waterfox - the future is now

    I have been using Waterfox on my workstations for a time now. the alternatives pale in comparison. Having tried them all, Waterfox gives me what I need and nothing I do not. Although I keep many browsers around for proofing and such, Waterfox is king. It does everything Firefox can do, and it has not gotten in bed with marketers to do it.

    Google gets away with slurping because folks generally do not care. Caring is hard work. It takes them from their failbuckian existance. They are herd animals and happy to be so. Not me. I am not for sale. It's my machine. I control it. Marketers can piss right off until they learn that their world is not what is important enough to be rude without giving a damn.

    There are other forks of Mozilla, including Pail Moon, Cybermoon, Seamonkey, etc.. I looked at all of them long and hard while searching for an IE replacement as the default browser right after adopting Windows 7 Pro x64 while upgrading from XP Pro x86. Waterfox was the only browser that fulfilled all that should be what a good browser is. If you are thinking about the browser while surfing the web, you are using the wrong browser...

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