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UK ministers to push anti-encryption laws after election

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They are not removing encryption. They are requiring an ability to access the keys / data. This means that the encryption won't be as secure, but not all removed.

We are not removing locks, we just require you to leave a copy of the key under the mat.

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"This means that the encryption won't be as secure, but not all removed."

It won't be secure at all once it's leaked.

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"The first question I would ask is how they justify that MP's comms data is exempt from ICR collections."

That is justifiable. Not well thought out but justifiable. The justification is that you should be able to discuss matters confidentially with your MP. The not well thought out bit is that it's only actually exempt if your communication is also exempt.

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"The justification is that you should be able to discuss matters confidentially with your MP"

That justification could and should be applied elsewhere....almost anywhere in fact...

If I choose to have a private conversation with someone else, I should be able, (pay attention here, fans of totalitarianism) *short of a court order to the contrary*, to rest assured that my conversation IS private, regardless of the medium I choose.

Of course, if I choose to broadcast my conversation publically, such as on Facebook, Twitter or yelling it in the street, then my reasonable expectation of privacy is no longer reasonable, and I have no recourse, having made my speech public.

What the MPs are saying here is that this right to expectation of privacy ONLY applies to communications involving them, either to or from and to NO ONE else. Not your doctor, your friends, your employer, your counsellor, your children's teachers, or a (perhaps worst of all) journalist. Those are all subject to automatic interception, cataloguing and trend analysis.

And that's just the starter. The Digital Economy Bill goes on to grant the government the power to actually SILENCE those conversations should they choose to do so.

We can't let them do this.

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As if the government had done so much...

The fact is that the people around the suicide bomber have warned the government multiple times that he was an extremist and could be doing something bad. Source is this Dutch newspaper (Telegraaf) here.

Translation of the headline: "Authorities have been warned 5 times about Abedi".

With significant details I might add. That he was an extremist, that he had ties into Al Quada, that he had become a severe radical. Despite all those warnings he had been put on a watch list but wasn't actively monitored.

So I ask you, is social media and encryption really to blame here? What good is giving the government more access if they already ignore the obvious, as has been shown here?

Hypocrites, that's all I can say.

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Re: As if the government had done so much...

add to all that, he had only just returned from Libya.

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MJI
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Re: As if the government had done so much...

Just like the parliament attack thug, known to authorities and ignored.

So who is really to blame?

They do have the information but do not use it.

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Re: As if the government had done so much...

Just like the parliament attack thug, known to authorities and ignored.

So who is really to blame?

They do have the information but do not use it.

Well, the next obvious question is whether they choose to ignore the information, or do not have the resources to handle it?

Discuss, then vote accordingly...

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Re: As if the government had done so much...

"Well, the next obvious question is whether they choose to ignore the information, or do not have the resources to handle it?"

Well, whilst this annoys the hell out of me too, I have to play devils advocate here for a moment and voice the opposing argument; would you really want a state where someone/anyone can be arrested BEFORE committing a crime?

Broadens the debate, eh?

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Thumb Down

Re: As if the government had done so much...

I don't think it does broaden the debate. Weakening privacy also wouldn't allow people to be arrested before commiting a crime.

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Re: As if the government had done so much...

would you really want a state where someone/anyone can be arrested BEFORE committing a crime

UK is such state - see current anti-terror legislation.

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Re: As if the government had done so much...

Well, whilst this annoys the hell out of me too, I have to play devils advocate here for a moment and voice the opposing argument; would you really want a state where someone/anyone can be arrested BEFORE committing a crime?

You misunderstand me; this is not what I am advocating either. My point is that cuts to police, and more importantly, police staff mean that there are fewer people to actually analyse the intelligence. At any time, there can be a large number of people 'known to the police', and they could be doing something that would be grounds for being picked up, if there was someone to sort through the intelligence. For example, they might be seen on CCTV doing something suspicious, or there might be a suspicious pattern of purchases (such as large quantities of the substances that used to make TATP). These data might already be collected, but it's of no use if there's nobody to collate them and then send an officer round to investigate.

I'm not saying this particular attack could have been stopped this way, but removing the resources to be able to do this certainly won't have made this sort of crime less likely.

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Re: As if the government had done so much...

"Well, the next obvious question is whether they choose to ignore the information, or do not have the resources to handle it?

Discuss"

OK, let's discuss. Maybe they don't have the resources to handle it and undertake mass-surveillance of everyone else as well. I which case, wouldn't it be better to focus on those they're aware of?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: As if the government had done so much...

would you really want a state where someone/anyone can be arrested BEFORE committing a crime?

Yes.

We can list examples of "conspiracy," which involves two or more people planning a crime - such as Conspiracy to Commit Fraud or Conspiracy to Commit Murder (which is more relevant in this case)

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Re: As if the government had done so much...

Conspiracy is a crime in many other countries as well.

You don't have to actually commit the crime just be intending to do so.

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Unhappy

"Broadens the debate, eh?"

No it doesn't.

UK anti-terror laws can absolutely proactively detain someone under house arrest.

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Anonymous Coward

So to fight evil oppressive scum we have to become evil oppressive scum ?

We might as well give up now then.

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Anonymous Coward

Sounds about right. Haters gonna hate, so there will ALWAYS be enemies who exist solely because WE exist. And as long as enemies exist, there WILL come an Omnicidal Maniac who will seek to destroy the world simply for us existing. Ergo, anything less than brutal autocracy will eventually cause The End of The World. Ask yourself; why can't we find other intelligent life in the galaxy?

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Unhappy

A Puzzle

What are they really after? I don't believe that they are so stupid as to expect this to fly. Even Joe (really thick) Public is beginning to see the problem here, and also that almost all of these attackers were apparently already under suspicion.

At the risk of tinfoil hattery, I can't help thinking there some other agenda this is masking.

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Re: A Puzzle

Google (UK): anti terror laws council

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Rol

There was a time.....

After the latest carnage on the road, government ministers are revisiting lowering the speed limit and looking too, to boost employment, as the man with a red flag walking in front of your vehicle is touted as the only solution.

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Re: There was a time.....

Getting re-elected by turning another group of people into villains has been standard practice for politicians for millennia.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: There was a time.....

"Getting re-elected by turning another group of people into villains has been standard practice for politicians for millennia."

It has also been a standard tactic by terrorists to provoke such reactions from politicians. The resulting alienation then increases their recruiting grounds in the perceived "villains".

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Knee, stop reacting like that you jerk.

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And if Manchester didn't happen, they wouldn't have wanted backdoors on everything ever

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

The IPA was passed with "please see technical capability notice for details" all over the place and the technical notice can be anything the government wants. It was just a matter of time.

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Al Qaeda have/had rules on the use of mobile technology during their "meetings". It involved going to the one location, taking apart the mobile phone by removing the battery and sim card. You'd leave it all there bar the battery (I think), then travel to a 2nd destination and leave the other part of the mobile, and then travel to the 3rd location for the meeting. They did this because they didn't trust the technology to not let the powers that be spy on them. This was all in place long before the Snowden leaks.

So the terrorists are already wise to how technology can be used against them. The more the media and Government push the agenda of encryption being bad and banning it doesn't mean it will let the security forces/army/men in black monitor potential terrorists any easier. The terrorists will see the same shit we're seeing, and they will make a plan to tip toe around it. Meaning they're driven more underground, using clandestine methods of communication, meaning they're harder to track and pin down.

The terrorists go in to the shadows even more, while the general public are opened up to inspection against our permission. Imagine now a Tory government gets in to power on 9th June, and they decide over the 5 years to target those who speak out against May and her policies. Those people can be found under "terrorism" acts as it's such a loose term. Likewise, if a Labour government get in whats to stop them targetting those who hate immigrants coming in to the country and treat them as far-right terrorists using the same protocols?

TL;DR: The country's fucked and the only way to restore pride in the nation is to build a giant working homage to George Orwell's 1984, because terrorism.

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Anonymous Coward

Can't the government just require all ISPs (including VPNs) to perform man-in-the-middle interception on all secure traffic? I suspect that if you work in any largish company this is already done on all your web browsing. Can't use Firefox at work because of all the inception certificate warnings. IE is set to "trust" the new fake certificates...

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"Can't the government just require all ISPs (including VPNs) to perform man-in-the-middle interception on all secure traffic?"

How does that help? All that allows is access to private and secure data.

Would you appreciate some wanker intercepting the traffic between your site and Amazon when making a purchase? Or would you appreciate it if someone was spying on your comunications between you and some random woman you met on Match.com?

Liberty is something to be fought for, not to have concessions made on.

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"Can't the government just require all ISPs (including VPNs) to perform man-in-the-middle interception on all secure traffic?"

Many applications these days pin the correct certificate and will fail to work if you try and substitute a fake.

I do so hope Google, WhatsApp, Facebook, etc. etc just refuse to cooperate. Which seems likely - otherwise North Korea, Iran, Israel, China and every other human rights abuser on the planet will be saying me too, me too...

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Unless the fake COMES FIRST or somehow all the other certs get invalidated, basically replacing the pin. How else do corporate secure proxies work? Wouldn't a State-level one apply the same principles?

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"How else do corporate secure proxies work"

You have to bypass SSL inspection for applications that pin or properly check the certificate matches what they are inspecting. Otherwise they don't work.

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Anonymous Coward

If you want to help stop this you should help the Open Rights Group and you should vote them out on June 8th

https://www.openrightsgroup.org/

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Anonymous Coward

good idea but seriously

please stop and think long and hard before voting for Jeremy C. His idea of a society is one where the state controls everything and I mean everything. Everything nationalised and the Unions with offices in Downing St.

IMHO, his ideas for a socialist utopia went out of fashion in the 1970's (along with the various Marxists, Trots, Commies, Maoists and the rest on the hard left).

The rich will flee abroad taking their money with them and leaving the rest of us plebs to pick up the bill. IT happened before when there was a 95% top rate of tax. It is even easier now to move your money to safe havens (even the EU will be a safe haven).

The so called fully costed Manifesto assumes that None of the top 10% of income earners moves abroad.

There goes a squadron of pigs taking off from Heathrow as I speak.

AFAIK, the questions for many of us at this electionare as follows:-

1) Who will get us the best deal in the Brexit talks?

2) Who is going to replace Jeremy C as leader of the Labor Party when it all comes apart at the seams?

Then make up your own mind and vote accordingly.

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Re: good idea but seriously

Frau May came out with her party's manifesto, basically saying if you have dimentia the state will claim your home and assets above £100,000 to "pay for your care". Even though they'd have paid in to the system their entire lives.

Everyone hated the idea. Then the next day May says "well it'll be up for discussion". Within a day she changed her mind, did a U-turn.

And you expect her to get the best deal for Brexit?

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Re: good idea but seriously

I fully agree that both the Tories and Labour are massively authoritarian. I strongly suggest not focusing on Left-Right but on the other axis of the Political Compass (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass): Authoritarian-Libertarian.

On that basis, consider voting for either the LibDems or the Greens, to put a stop to this authoritarian rubbish. After all, it was the LibDems who forced cancellation of Labour's identity card scheme, which the Tories would have been very happy to continue with.

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Yes, please do. I have paid my dues to the ORG since they were established and I used the great resources they had prepared to help me craft my carefully considered response to the Home Office consultation after they had warned us all and published it.

Of course, as I was not invited to respond I suspect my response will be ignored, but at least ORG have brought this out into the open.

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Re: good idea but seriously

Putting aside whether she's changed her mind or not (it seems to be both at the same time), she won't say what her proposed ceiling is until after the election which is odd. But it'll certainly be high enough to not matter for the 99% and low enough not to bother the 1%.

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Re: good idea but seriously

"1) Who will get us the best deal in the Brexit talks?"

I'll answer just this one question to put your whole argument to bed.

If Corbyn wins, the Brexit negotiation will be carried out by Sir Keir Starmer, KCB, QC. If May wins, she will send Boris Johnson.

So, who do you want to negotiate Brexit again?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: good idea but seriously

"On that basis, consider voting for either the LibDems or the Greens, to put a stop to this authoritarian rubbish."

Unfortunately with the FPTP system that will split the anti-Tory vote in some Labour/Tory marginals. The best one can scheme for is a tactical vote to get another hung Parliament. In some places that means Lib-Dems etc voting Labour as the only action likely to swing a seat away from the Tories. Even some Labour local groups are going for such anti-Tory tactics in areas where Labour is not the best placed contender.

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MJI
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Re: good idea but seriously

I live in what was a Conservative constituency with strong Labour opposition (now Strong and Stable party).

Racist party did well, then Greens.

My was decent MP has been hijacked by the Strong and Stable party. The opposition now loves Corbyn after being anti Corbyn.

No idea why anyone would vote UKIP.

To be honest I would be throwing away my vote going anything but those two. But I will have to.

At least I will have done something I believed in.

Anyway I reckon SS Party PPC will get in as the Kippers will support him, the Corbyn hating left wingers will go Green, and the Conservative and Centrist Labour Remainers, Lib Dem.

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Re: good idea but seriously

You seriously think the greens are not authoritarian? I have this bridge you may be interested in...

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MJI
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Re: good idea but seriously

All of these people are forgetting another large group, composed of the disposessed.

Conservative voters who do not like May. Conservative Remainers. Conservative Libertarians.

Now where is the best place for a centre right voter who would never touch Corbyn, would get Farage done as a traitor and thinks the government should leave us alone?

They can't all move to Ken Clarkes constituency.

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MJI
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Re: good idea but seriously

They are a bit, but compared to May

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Re: it seems to be both at the same time

That's listed in the manual's glossary as 'doublethink'.

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Re: good idea but seriously

That's not what 'socialism' is.

His dream, and a human utopia, would be to cater to everybody in the aim of fairness; providing appropriate hospital and mental health treatment, cater for homelessness, eradicate poverty and ensure that you are not the victim of the mistakes of your parents.

Aiming the trend towards the above - given the above is just a utopia - really is possible.

His policies and the Labour manifesto mimic the Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish and Danish model. Those countries are NOT as you describe.

Can you therefore explain this paradox?

You are wrong. Go travel Scandinavia and you will resolve your prejudice.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: good idea but seriously

How are you going to flee abroad with all your money when I've sent my boys from the council estate militia to take your passport and passed a law to seize your assets.

Check mate bourgeoisie scum.

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Re: good idea but seriously

"if you have dimentia the state will claim your home and assets above £100,000 to "pay for your care"."

They made you pay up to £72K before anyway if you were well off. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that the well off pay for their own care - and why should a valuable home be excluded. The money is taken from your estate. Seems rather generous to me excluding the last £100K.

We have an aging population, and the current approach (and the pensions triple lock too) is unsustainable - and anyway why should the working be subsidising the well off and retired?

"And you expect her to get the best deal for Brexit?"

Yes, she's a hard nosed bitch.

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Re: good idea but seriously

"The rich will flee abroad taking their money with them and leaving the rest of us plebs to pick up the bill."

And if a mandatory exit tax was imposed?

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Re: good idea but seriously

Then who pays for the care of the elderly POOR?

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@TheVogon

"They made you pay up to £72K before anyway if you were well off. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that the well off pay for their own care - and why should a valuable home be excluded. The money is taken from your estate. Seems rather generous to me excluding the last £100K."

The NHS is "cradle to grave", and every single one of us pays for it. I wouldn't mind if dimentia was self inflicted, like liver cirrhosis is to alcoholics and CPOD is to 40-a-day chain smokers. But dimentia can affect us all and isn't prejudice against who we are. We've paid in to a system that has been systematically destroyed by a Conservative agenda where they want to implement an American-style health and social care system, where no matter what illness you have, if your chequebook isn't big enough you're not getting treated. Thats vile and inhumane.

"We have an aging population, and the current approach (and the pensions triple lock too) is unsustainable - and anyway why should the working be subsidising the well off and retired?"

We have all the money in the world to go to wars to murder innocent people, but we can't spare a few quid to keep Dorris in heating and condensed milk?

"and anyway why should the working be subsidising the well off and retired?"

Why should those who are now retired (well off or not) have spent their working lives to clean the arse of people like you who were too young to do anything for themselves? It's called society. Those who can help those who can't. If the funding for such things was written on your P60 or council tax form so you could see where your money went, we're talking pennies per month. It's nothing. We're one of the richest countries in the world, why can't we help those who have spent their lives working?

"Yes, she's a hard nosed bitch."

But at what point is she a hard nosed bitch? She changes her mind more often than she changes her knickers and leather trousers. Strikes me she's a clueless bitch.

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