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Only global poverty can save the planet, insists WWF - and the ESA!

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Re: How would you save mankind.

How about making the people at the lower end of the spectrum more effective, so that perhaps they can do more than convert O2 into CO2 and pop out sprogs to further drain the economy and the environment?

Every time I see some halfwit "TAX THE RICH" basher like yourself it amazes me that you won't hold everyone else to the same standards of accountability. At least the rich and corporations are producing something other than more unmotivated uneducated consumers of global resources.

With regards to food, the USA currently pays farmers not to farm. Seems rather silly when there is a food shortage, no?

At least the assertion about nuke plants is spot on.

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Meh

Re: How would you save mankind.

Mmm, we need to solve the energy issue here first, otherwise were does all the energy come from to go elsewhere?

My current favourite is liquid Thorium fission reactors, given there is several generations worth of Thorium and meltdown don't happen in Thorium reactors, they fail safe. This will give us time to get Fusion working and safe, so we have the serious power needed for space travel.

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Re: How would you save mankind.

Trouble with your last plan is that the richest also have the most flexibility. Take for the example of the ultra-rich who aren't citizens of any western country. They can set down roots anywhere they want, so unless you have a global tax system (impossible in the current political climate), people and companies who don't want to play ball with you can simply pack up and leave, taking all their riches with them. When it takes money to redistribute money, how do you redistribute money when someone has all of it?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: How would you save mankind.

It's big, yellow, very hot, and 93 million miles away (give or take) and it is responsible for powering the entire planet. Every storm, every cloud, every tree and yes even the fossil fuels are basically stored sunlight.

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Re: How would you save mankind.

figgus your missing the point. the reason this halfwit believes taxing the rich would work is that i believe most of the sprog popping co2 expelers, are only in that situation due to poverty. And by poverty i mean lack of education, jobs, hope, and any sense of self worth. taxing the rich works by giving these people proper lives. give a man a fish.......

but do you really think its ok that major companies get away with not paying tax? llok at Vodafone. or that American presidential candidate (romney?) who mentioned he only pays something silly like 13% tax on the billions he has. im not talking about 100k earning bmw drivers. im talking about the rich.

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Joke

(Insert comment about the World Wrestling Federation here)

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Thumb Down

Do as I say...

I take it this is the same WWF who are building a massive new European headquarters from scratch in Woking rather than taking over an existing building?

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Joke

How long before Lewis gets out of hospital?

After having an aneurysm?

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Windows

ESA

With only 38 years to go, the European Space Agency presumably has well-advanced plans for eco-powered rockets.

Will they be wind-powered, solar-powered, or possibly the most exciting prospect, powered by tidal energy?

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Oh Lewis...

Why do you have to make enemies of your friends? You want to argue that AGW is dubious - that's fine. Many of us who consider ourselves environmentalists agree with you. You want to argue that a reduction in living standards is a bad thing (almost by definition) and is unnecessary - again, that's a position many of us support. You want to say wind farms are in the vast majority of cases a bad solution - huge numbers of envrionmentally minded types will agree with you! And yet you have to cast your net wide and start poking fun at, e.g. animal species being wiped out.

You're like a person who hates some positions of a group and therefore reflexively argues against them on all their positions, even when they have a valid point. Pick and choose your battles. Otherwise you become just like your opponents - irrationally lashing out at anything you see "the other side" say. Rated your article in the middle. Positive for the valid points against wind farms etc., negative for your dislike of tigers and mockery of people who try to preserve biodiversity.

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A couple of thoughtish things

1. Thanks to El Reg for giving this report more publicity than the WWF's entire annual budget would allow.

2. One assumes that members of the WWF are taking their own advice by committing suicide or living entirely off weeds.

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FAIL

WWF budget

Err, you do realise that WWF turns over £500m a year? I would suspect that their budget just for this little escapade is more than the entire annual income of El Reg.

WWF members won't be committing suicide. Just like the fans of eugenics who thought they were the chosen ones, they would prefer the plebs to do the suicide bit. The only difference is that WWF want the plebs to do it themselves whilst eugenicsts would do the actual killing.

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Re: WWF budget

I'm guessing you have never had your - or anyone else's - tongue in your cheek.

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Anonymous Coward

The Pentagon has the Solution

A famous report a few years ago had the solution, the world population has to be reduced by a few billion.

Wars, famine, drought, disease. The first item being behind their interest. Look at the UK naval capability, twin aircraft carriers, new nuclear subs, powerful frigates. The plan is to wipe out those hungry mouths, screw sustainability.

Lewis will love this of course, probably advocate using a fee nukes, radiation is safe after all.

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Mushroom

Re: The Pentagon has the Solution

Well, of course. After they seize, confiscate and capture most of the oil on the planet, they will roll around in their armored personnel carriers until everyone else is dead. They will breed with female soldiers who have been accepted into the US Army because of their enticing bods and live in pleasant bases which have been purged of radioactivity. I forget the rest. See the end of "Dr. Strangelove."

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Black Helicopters

Just wondering if they propose ..

Celibicy as part of the solution.

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Re: Just wondering if they propose ..

No, but celibacy, perhaps. I prefer forced sterilization for malorthographers.

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We can eithe r decrease individual demand, or decrease individuals

Assume for a moment that the basic premise that there are not enough resources on the planet for everyone to live the life style of the typical Westerner, the proposed solution of having us all live in poverty, is only one possible logical outcome. The other is to reduce the global population until the numbers balance again, simples. ;-)

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Coat

Re: We can eithe r decrease individual demand, or decrease individuals

just one little fallacy here, assuming that the only other existing life style than " the life style of the typical Westerner" is "poverty".

As an example, just because you don't get to shop new clothes every week, does not necessarily mean you're poor. It's all in your mind and what you define as "rich".

Money in the bank is not the same as quality of life. Sure, a bit of dough helps, but its not the same thing.

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Mushroom

Re: We can eithe r decrease individual demand, or decrease individuals

and by the way, it won't be all of us living in poverty, only maybe 99% of us.

The other 1% will still be laughing.

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Re: We can eithe r decrease individual demand, or decrease individuals

"As an example, just because you don't get to shop new clothes every week, does not necessarily mean you're poor."

Phew! Coz, just as an example, I don't know *anyone* who does that.

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@Ken Hagan

I can introduce you to several, and not just those fitting the stereotyped woman shopper. I know at least three men who buy clothes most, if not all, weeks.

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Unhappy

@Intractable Potsherd

How depressing. Perhaps we are all fucked, after all.

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Boffin

A small point I'd like to make

"... limited hot water: so dirtier clothes ..."

Actually most modern clothes washing detergents actually work perfectly well in cold water. And in any case, the bulk of the actual cleaning of your clothes comes from the physical agitation, with the detergent aiding by dislodging the more stubborn dirt and stains and then sequestering it in the rinse water.

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Mushroom

Boycott the companies funding the WWF

You have to wonder if WWF, like Greanpeace, blackmail companies in to donating to a cause that, frankly, wants to put them out of business.

If we all boycott the companies that donate money and land to these eco-terrorists (or put them on their board of directors like some of the oil companies) maybe we can break the power of these groups.

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Anonymous Coward

Ah well,

...not to worry, the Earth will sort herself out, one way or the other.

Always does, with or without WWF. Or Lewis, for that matter.

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This post has been deleted by its author

You just need some inspiration.

Pol Pot should be on the cover of the WWF report.

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Holmes

North Korea for the Masses

I suggest those wanting the world to live this way spend three years in N. Korea and then get back to us on their ideas.

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People should actually read the report. You might find a startling difference between what it says and how it's been reported here.

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Payment

How much does Soro's pay you to puch his agenda NomNomNom?

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Re: Payment

Here's the report summary:

http://awsassets.panda.org/downloads/lpr_2012_summary_booklet_final.pdf

Go to slide 21 and 22, which is the part about "doing something"

Now try to find me anything on slide 21 which justifies the "they want us to go back to living in caves", "they want to ban steel and concrete", "they are extremists" interpretations (and I use that word loosely) of the report.

The report might be pie-in-the-sky optimistic thinking, much like a report advocating the "end of all wars" would be wishful thinking, but it isn't extremist. If you disagree find me one quote from the summary that is extreme.

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They're Not All That Wrong

It doesn't help one's case in arguing against the extreme position taken by the WWF to take an equally extreme position in the other direction. Then, neither side can really marshal the facts in its defense.

Yes, what they're aiming at is to impose global poverty. But they're quite right if we instead go on with business as usual, more species will go extinct as people intrude more into the few remaining untouched wildlife habitats.

There are basically two alternatives we have to the choice between a decent, prosperous life for all of humanity on the one hand, and the survival of the glories of wild Nature on the other. Two ways we could have both.

One is population control. If we decided not to have very many children, and our children decided not to have very many grandchildren, eventually, barring major advances in gerontology, there would be few enough of us that we could live comfortably without destroying the planet.

The other is nuclear power. That lets us produce the abundant energy our lifestyle depends on without impinging on the biosphere to any significant extent. We still probably would have to ration airplane travel, but that would not be a big deal if people could travel from London to New York in hours on high-speed electric trains.

You know, through the Channel Tunnel, and then on to the bridge across the Bering Strait...

No, I'm not kidding. We have options. We can build a meaningful future for humanity that doesn't mean ruin and destruction for the natural world.

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Re: They're Not All That Wrong

"Yes, what they're aiming at is to impose global poverty."

where in the report does it say that?

Seriously, the report pretty much says eat less meat, switch from fossil fuels to renewables and use 15% less energy (energy efficiency)

Yet many commenters throwing around North Korea, Pol Pot and "Livin in a Cave" memes. THAT is extremist. The report is far from that.

Wonder where they got the idea the report is extremist. Here's a game: Try to find actual "extremist" words from the report in Lewis's article. Should be easy, he must have quoted the worst stuff right? See if you can find a quote that is clearly extreme. Then wonder if many peopel are thinking the report is extreme because the quotes are really extreme or whether it's Lewis's provided interpretation of them that is extreme.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: They're Not All That Wrong

Lewis is a Troll, getting a reaction is the point, not a valid presentation of fact with logical discussion.

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Pint

Well Done WWF

I wholeheartedly endorse these plans from the WWF. I already adhere to most of these items even going so far as to power my computer by cycle wheel technology. A simple 13 hour cycle enables me to logon for fully thirteen minutes, if I turn the brightness down.

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FAIL

I for one welcome our environmentalist overlords!!

And I look forward to my future as a subsistence farmer and taking time from the backbreaking ongoing struggle to rest a tenous living from my smallholding so that I can enjoy my leisure time watching the fire burn in the hearth and watching my half-feral children chase chickens around in the farm yard. Maybe there will even be enough time to go down to the weekly jousting tournament to watch my neighbors who are still wealthy enough to afford a horse and shield!

Ah....good times!!

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Anonymous Coward

'Eco' Thugs

These are Communists, people hatters and quite possibly psychopaths, and probably eventually want a Communist dictatorship with them on top, and the boot on you 1984 style. These rabid predators need to be revealed and ruined, and if still persistent, given the traditional tribal solution for psychopathy e.g. pushed off a cliff.

The real cause of all the real damage to nature is the lack of will and vision to make nature valuable enough to protect; however world-wide state collectivism together with slaver Bankster Fractional Reserve Debt and usury actively prevent the correct valuation of all resources, thus nature is undervalued and over exploited!

The real irony is a more primitive society would likely do more damage and become unable to maintain a lot of what they say is nature, but is actually centuries old man-shaped, improved and maintained ecosystems!

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Re: "people hatters"

Milliners? I thought Mad Hatters went out shortly after the other Lewis wrote Alice in Wonderland.

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Megaphone

Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors NOW!

After reading that, I'm either going to go out and buy a Mjölnir pendant and join a Germanic neopagan group in advance of the collapse of western civilization or do everything in my power to promote the rapid R&D of Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors (LFTR) to end the Neo-Luddite nightmare that stalks us from under a panda skin. (Either way, Thor is awesome.)

Mad props to Baroness Worthington for starting an APPG to look at the idea and Kirk Sorensen for pretty much single-handedly getting the meme (and extensive documentation from ORNL) out there for anyone willing to listen to his message of safe nuclear even before Fukushima started freaking people out.

If you're reading this and have no idea what I'm talking about, find "Thorium Remix 2011" on Youtube and watch the first five min (a summary). Then when you're like 'OMGWTF4REALZ?!?' watch the rest of the two hour vid. You'll learn about crazy shit like nuclear powered aircraft and a genius named Alvin Weinberg who basically solved our problems back in the 60's with a nuclear reactor that's meltdown-proof by using molten salt as both coolant and fuel, thermally self-regulating due to hot salt expansion decreasing fission (and cool salt contraction increasing fission, e.g. as power demand ramps up) and which breeds its own fuel from highly stable Thorium that's just sitting on the ground all over the world (lookup Kerala, India; entire beaches of Thorium (Monazite) sands). Depending on who you ask there might be enough around to power civilization until the sun runs out of hydrogen and destroys the earth! Why don't we have this wonder? Goddamn Richard-fucking-Milhous Nixon, that's why.

OK, enough ranting; learn about LFTR! Learn about the one the Chinese are building, or the Czechs, or Sorensen's; they're all supposed to have prototypes up and running ~2015.

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Flame

Hey Mr Lewis, Sir

Why don't you ramble about the incompetence of the Glorious American Arms Industry ?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/air-force-pentagon-schraenkt-einsatz-von-f-22-kampfjets-ein-a-833420.html

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Gabri Rigotti

We promote poverty alleviation via Green solutions.

As Business Intelligence specialists we have processed massive amounts of municipal data in South Africa that indicate Green as a way forward not only for the environmental health of the planet but also for poverty alleviation.

South Africa is a microcosm of the world, with extremes of wealth and poverty, racial and cultural differences, and vast amounts of wilderness (natural environment).

Politically it showed the world how to resolve conflict, and its Constitution is arguably one of the most advanced ever in terms of human rights.

So as a real-world laboratory that can be extrapolated from, the evidence from the South African data that we process is significant.

The vested global interests in "dirty energy" however are threatened by a shift to clean energy.

A future Green world will not only be safer but also far less poorer.

It is however probable that those economic interests based on unsustainabe resources such as fossil fuels will eventually lose - if they do not shift their core business as well.

For more information see: www.greenit.org.za

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Flame

WTF ?

Are you also trolling for your Preso's theory that "Showering After Sex Defends Against HIX/AIDS ?". Just asking.

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Re: "90% reduction of the population.."

I think we should start with them, perhaps put them on Ark 3, then forget about them.

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Mushroom

Time to go all-in on Fusion Power

Really, if we can’t work out how to do Nuclear Fusion without the big bang, we may as well get on with human-extinction and let another species have a go..

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Anonymous Coward

I don't know which WWF I think less of

I don't know which WWF I think are worse:

1) The totally fake, attention whoring, talentless hacks who put on a show just to make a buck

or

2) The guys in Spandex tights in the wrestling ring.

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Mushroom

Euro crisis solves Climate crisis

Merkel Hollande and co are killing growth in Europe, so I guess they will be lauded as the saviors of the world

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This post has been deleted by its author

prequel to the wind up girl?

Reads like it

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Devil

We need to kill people.....

...lots of people. Every other option is a sticking plaster on the problem.

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