UK space comes to an 'understanding' with Australia as Brexit looms The UK and Australia have announced plans to become the best of buddies in the space field, including the UK’s current hot potato: satellite navigation. The memorandum of understanding, which was signed this week by Chief Executive of the UK Space Agency, Graham Turnock, and head of the fledgling Australian Space Agency (ASA …
@ Dan 55
"You seriously don't know the difference between Northern Ireland and Ireland?"
I was responding to "Have you asked Ireland their opinion?". NI was asked and is leaving as part of the UK. ROI is part of the EU and they are not leaving the EU nor planning on asking are they? So what is your point and is there one?
I was responding to "Have you asked Ireland their opinion?". NI was asked and is leaving as part of the UK. ROI is part of the EU and they are not leaving the EU nor planning on asking are they? So what is your point and is there one?
Let's copy and paste something from Wikipedia:
Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland declares that the name of the state is Ireland; Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 declares that Republic of Ireland is "the description of the State".
Anyway, from now on you are not allowed to refer to Spain as Spain, instead you must call it The Kingdom of Spain. If you do call it Spain, I reserve the right to be deliberately obtuse.
@ Dan 55
"Let's copy and paste something from Wikipedia:"
Sorry to put it in these terms but your the idiot who wrote "have you asked Ireland their opinion?". My legitimate assumption was you mean NI which we have the legal position to ask, why would we ask ROI? So it does seem you are being deliberately obtuse.
"Lost imports and exports from the UK will be made up with trade agreements with other countries, which the UK doesn't have. Simples."
Yet again I dont think you quite follow the situation or are just being an idiot. We are currently still in the EU we cannot have other trade agreements. The EU doesnt allow it.
You said:
Instead of the border being between the UK and Ireland it could be between Ireland and the EU.
You which I said:
Have you asked Ireland their opinion?
Them also having sovereignty and that. Perhaps they don't want to leave the single market and customs union which works for them just to make life easier for the UK, when it was the UK which decided to leave.
To which you replied:
Yes we asked their opinion, there was a referendum. The United Kingdom (including Northern Ireland) are leaving the EU.
You say I'm the idiot (your gramatical error removed), but I'm afraid replaying the conversation back leads us to a different conclusion.
Yet again I dont think you quite follow the situation or are just being an idiot. We are currently still in the EU we cannot have other trade agreements. The EU doesnt allow it.
There was the word "will" in my original post. Perhaps that gives you a clue?
Perhaps the enormity of getting 700-odd non-trade agreements that the UK will be leaving agreed all over again as well as enough trade agreements to replace the current EU ones is finally dawning? What's it like realising you're on the wrong side of history?
@ Dan 55
"You said:"
Yes I did. Because if it is fine to suggest the border is between Ireland (Ni and ROI) and the UK it is just as correct to suggest the border is between Ireland (Ni and ROI) and the EU. I make this suggestion because some remainers dont seem to realise it is the same stupid suggestion and they see one as acceptable but the other as not.
"To which you replied:"
And I am right. We legally only have the right to ask NI. The EU could offer ROI a choice and ROI would possibly vote to remain in the EU. But the idea being proposed isnt to ask but to negotiate where the border will be. If its ok to suggest it is between the UK and Ireland it is also ok to suggest it is between the EU and Ireland.
"There was the word "will" in my original post. Perhaps that gives you a clue?"
So what 'will' the situation be as we are still in the EU and cant sign a single deal?
"Perhaps the enormity of getting 700-odd non-trade agreements that the UK will be leaving agreed all over again as well as enough trade agreements to replace the current EU ones is finally dawning?"
Why? Your assumption that all is doom and gloom assumes the only way for a country to survive is to be in the EU. In no way has that been shown. You forget we already trade with these places to to prepare a new deal is pretty simple as the terms are pretty much already there.
"What's it like realising you're on the wrong side of history?"
No idea, so far it doesnt seem I am on the wrong side at all. Just like when I used to be called eurosceptic and those pro-EU people were saying much the same as now... and were wrong.
You are wrong. It is not okay to suggest Ireland do anything because any suggestion that Ireland do anything is a non-solution which is not workable (as is, incidently, "Brexit means leave so we just leave"). Ireland is an independent sovereign state. Ireland don't have to change one single thing, they aren't leaving the SM and CU and don't want to leave because leaving would be a monumentally stupid thing to do.
The EU doesn't have to offer Ireland a choice. Ireland chooses on its own, just like the UK. If Ireland wanted to leave, they would hold a referendum as the Irish constitution obliges them to, but they don't, so they won't.
In short, the UK shat the bed, the UK has to clean up the sheets.
So what 'will' the situation be as we are still in the EU and cant sign a single deal? [...] to prepare a new deal is pretty simple as the terms are pretty much already there.
The cognitive dissonance is pretty astounding. What makes you think other countries would just want to replicate the same deal with the UK that they have with the EU and just wave things through? They don't:
The thorniest is the planned sharing-out of import quotas, which has already been rejected by the United States, Argentina, New Zealand, Brazil, Canada, Thailand and Uruguay.
And that's just the WTO, before any bilateral trade deals.
@ Dan 55
"It is not okay to suggest Ireland do anything because any suggestion that Ireland do anything is a non-solution which is not workable"
Not workable? I wouldnt go that far but unacceptable I can see. Just as it is similarly unacceptable for NI to remain in the EU and the border be between the UK and Ireland. The point I am making is it is a stupid suggestion regardless of which part of Ireland is forced to border it parent.
"The EU doesn't have to offer Ireland a choice. Ireland chooses on its own"
Erm no. The EU doesnt have to offer Ireland a choice, the EU is above Ireland. Ireland do as they are told. For example Ireland doesnt want to take more money off Apple, the EU dictates Ireland takes money from Apple and wins the legal case. Ireland takes the money but appeals against the decision in hope of giving Apple their money back. Or that the EU is negotiating Irelands border not Ireland. That sovereignty thing we leavers were banging on about.
"What makes you think other countries would just want to replicate the same deal with the UK that they have with the EU and just wave things through?"
Why are you thinking things will be the same? Or that things as they are is the optimal or desirable? FYI Japan has extended the UK an offer to join the TPP partnership that the US dropped out of. It does require we brexit though.
Erm no. The EU doesnt have to offer Ireland a choice, the EU is above Ireland. Ireland do as they are told. For example Ireland doesnt want to take more money off Apple, the EU dictates Ireland takes money from Apple and wins the legal case. Ireland takes the money but appeals against the decision in hope of giving Apple their money back. Or that the EU is negotiating Irelands border not Ireland. That sovereignty thing we leavers were banging on about.
Firstly, that's about unfair state aid rules which was around since the Treaty of Rome, so no EU country can claim they didn't know what they were signing up to (not even the UK in 1973).
Secondly, if countries in the EU do as they are told, how come it was possible to have a Brexit referendum in the UK in the first place? Is it more of that UK exceptionalism?
And thirdly, as a rules-based union signed up to the WTO, the EU has agreed alongside 160-odd other countries that, in the absence of a trade agreement between two countries then there must be a border with ports and customs inspection points. The EU is not going to waive that rule as they are signed up to the WTO.
Some brain-dead politicians in the UK may claim the solution is to not have any border or customs inspections, that would be against the WTO rules which the UK is falling back on and in breach of the UK's agreements with 160+ other countries. Not an auspicious start.
Why are you thinking things will be the same? Or that things as they are is the optimal or desirable? FYI Japan has extended the UK an offer to join the TPP partnership that the US dropped out of. It does require we brexit though.
The Japanese offer is an invitation to start negotiation after Brexit, it is not done deal. The UK currently has an agreement with Japan now and it will lose that after the 29th of March... so much for the EU stopping the UK having FTAs, eh?
@ Dan 55
"Secondly, if countries in the EU do as they are told, how come it was possible to have a Brexit referendum in the UK in the first place?"
Hang on we are discussing the Irish border and it sounds like you have solved it. If the Irish dont need to listen to the EU then there need be no border if ROI choose not to as well!
"the EU has agreed alongside 160-odd other countries that, in the absence of a trade agreement between two countries then there must be a border with ports and customs inspection points."
Hang on. Is this an EU rule or a WTO rule. Because I am not convinced there is such a WTO rule but there very well could be an EU rule. But based on your suggestion above that ROI does not have to listen to the EU the problem solves itself. I disagree as the ROI is in the EU so the EU speaks for them (hence why the negotiation is UK-EU and not UK-ROI).
"claim the solution is to not have any border or customs inspections, that would be against the WTO rules"
Except it isnt. WTO may be an issue over discriminatory practice but not border (as far as I am aware the WTO does not require a border.
"The EU is not going to waive that rule as they are signed up to the WTO."
It was funny watching Rees Mogg have that long named idiot on the ropes over this (the same one who broke rules stalling negotiation because he didnt like UKIP being in the room). The video is on youtube.
"The Japanese offer is an invitation to start negotiation after Brexit"
Why negotiate after brexit? We can negotiate we just cant sign.
"Instead of the border being between the UK and Ireland it could be between Ireland and the EU. I hear the EU red lined that themselves "
So, the UK voted for Brexit, and because they can't solve their own border issues you want Ireland to get effectively thrown out of the EU? Sorry mate, UK lost sovereignty over Ireland quite a while ago!
@ jmch
"So, the UK voted for Brexit, and because they can't solve their own border issues you want Ireland to get effectively thrown out of the EU?"
Its an option. Next dumb question?
The NI doesnt want a border, the UK doesnt want a border, ROI dont want a border.... who's left?
UK doesnt want a border
So UK wants to remain ? You cannot be both inside and outside of the common market. Ireland is in the common market, Northern Ireland wants to stay, so does Scotland, but the rest of the UK wants out. Brexit means hard border in Northern Ireland, so, there are really only three options:
Northern Ireland joins the republic of Ireland.
UK stays in the common market
UK dumps the Good Friday agreement.
@ Hans 1
"So UK wants to remain ?"
No
"You cannot be both inside and outside of the common market"
Agreed.
"Northern Ireland wants to stay, so does Scotland, but the rest of the UK wants out."
And so we took a vote over the whole of the UK and the result is out. So we are leaving.
"Brexit means hard border in Northern Ireland"
If the EU is so determined. Apparently the UK doesnt want a border, NI and ROI dont want, so that leaves?
If the EU wants to make a border its up to them, their choice, they are free to. Neither side has to and both sides could come to an arrangement.
If the EU wants to make a border its up to them, their choice, they are free to. Neither side has to and both sides could come to an arrangement.
The EU has long run out of vaid anti-Brexit reasons, they just keep repeating "but, but, but, More Europe is BETTER". Discovering that the NI/RoI border could be a problem was manna from heaven for them, which is why it's now their main argument. They don't have any others left.
Instead of the border being between the UK and Ireland it could be between Ireland and the EU. I hear the EU red lined that themselves so thats impossible to do.
@codejunky
I don't agree with your position, but you believe it, and I respect that.
But this is just silly. It undermines your total argument (I'm going to charitably assume, you forgot a joke icon).
Last time I ferried IRL to France* and back, the customs paranoia homeside was a whole world less than UK to France and back.
* Although flying to Italy, not without weird language choices onboard Aer Lingus - safety announcements in Irish and English, no Italian on a flight to Italy.
@ Teiwaz
"But this is just silly. It undermines your total argument (I'm going to charitably assume, you forgot a joke icon)."
I didnt forget a joke icon but yes it is silly and was intentional. The idea of ROI being annexed is as stupid as NI being annexed. It is as silly an idea that there be an Ireland UK border after brexit as an Ireland EU border. It is the same proposal but only one is dismissed as silly by remainers trying to make it,
A mutual deal with the EU/UK to treat Ireland differently would probably be the best outcome for Ireland. Failing that the ROI is in the EU and NI is in the UK.
When I make this daft suggestion (have done a few times) do feel free to dismiss it as a dumb idea being used to point out the dumb idea I am responding to.
Although flying to Italy, not without weird language choices onboard Aer Lingus - safety announcements in Irish and English, no Italian on a flight to Italy
Transavia Portugal to France is worse. Only French and English, no Portuguese, and that's between Schengen countries where we still had passport control on arrival!
"Instead of the border being between the UK and Ireland it could be between Ireland and the EU. I hear the EU red lined that themselves so thats impossible to do"
Except Ireland is a member of the EU. Explain how they should put a border between their member states? If you mean between NI and Eire, then by EU and WTO rules there should be a hard border, which unfortunately contradicts the GFA. Simple, isn't it?
@ Mooseman
"Except Ireland is a member of the EU"
And NI is a member of the UK. It is the same dumb idea. The fact that some remainers reject it so hard should indicate how they should be reacting when the EU suggests such bollocks.
"If you mean between NI and Eire"
Unfortunately that is not what the EU proposes. The EU wants a border between Ireland (the whole) and the UK. I am reversing the argument and watching panties tie in knots. I am poking holes in some remainers fantasies.
"then by EU and WTO rules there should be a hard border"
Only one set of those rules apply when we leave and that is WTO. WTO does not dictate that we must secure our borders (as far as I am aware). The EU rules mean bollocks to us when we leave, they can turn them sideways and shove em. That means the UK had no reason to apply a hard border, if the EU rules dictate it then Ireland and the EU will have to pay for it, man it and maintain it with whatever fallout follows. It is possible the WTO non-discrimination rule may come into play, maybe.
"which unfortunately contradicts the GFA"
Which is then a choice of Ireland who can either persuade the EU to grow up, leave the EU or they can break the agreement. If we have no border we aint breaking it.
"And a Canada or South Korea-style FTA are only possible with an NI sea border, which is another red line".
The Irish border situation is something straight out of Kafka or Orwell. These are the choices
- Stay in the EU and have no borders
- Leave in EU and have a land border
- Leave the EU and have a sea border
UK wants option "leave the EU and have no border", because both the UK gov sees both Irish sea border AND the land border as red lines. It's deluded to think that's an option. And it's going right past deluded and straight into the realms of insanity to think that an IT project will solve the problem by creating a 'virtual border' (whatever the fuck that's even supposed to mean) magically enabled by magic IT solution. Have these guys not seen the state of UK gov IT projects??
This is the thing i never get with you deluded remainers. Look at Canada's deal with the EU. It is better than anything the EU has offered to us or agreed with May, and funny enough Canada is not a member.
Canada isn't a member, was never a member and is across the ocean. All they want is a trade deal, the UK wants in on much more, like they never left regards some things, and wants nothing to do with other bits. You are deluded, if you think it's as simple as Canada or Norway.
The UKs sea border with the EU has always been 'somewhat outside' the EU, because with sea and channel they could get away with limiting trade with the EU, but remain adamant that a border between NI and IRL or NI and mainland UK remain as is as much as possible.
The NI / mainland sea border has never been as open as the borders Wales and Scotland, worse before the Good Friday agreement, but still more close to travelling to Europe than within the UK.
As much as people don't like the idea, it'd probably be the least disruptive, you already have security checks plane and ferry.
"Of the two sides we can get what we want unilaterally by just not participating in the project (aka leave). "
And this is going to achieve the frictionless trade that UK factories and farms need for their survival, not to mention to avoid the UK starving?
Don't tell me, Donald "Rip up the WTO" Trump is going to do you a good deal? The only good deal he's going to do you is if you sleep with him then threaten to go to the papers.
@ NerryTutkins
"And this is going to achieve the frictionless trade that UK factories and farms need for their survival, not to mention to avoid the UK starving?"
Thats a great project fear effort but fails in the fact that we cant provide enough home grown food to feed our population already. The food bill should go down (for everyone rich or poor in the UK) by leaving as we dont need to apply the high tariffs of the EU against the world. You talk of frictionless trade but I assume you mean only with the EU?
"Don't tell me, Donald "Rip up the WTO" Trump is going to do you a good deal? The only good deal he's going to do you is if you sleep with him then threaten to go to the papers."
He did seem to take the wind out of the EU's sails. Amusingly Junker actually publicly acknowledged that increasing tariffs is bad for the people in the country applying import tariffs, but then the EU did it anyway. By leaving we will be able to drop the EU high tariffs even Junker recognises as a good idea.
"The food bill should go down (for everyone rich or poor in the UK) by leaving as we dont need to apply the high tariffs of the EU against the world."
Christ on a bike not this rubbish again, we are beneficiaries of 759 trade agreements with the rest of the world that pretty much remove all tariffs on the food we consume.
After we leave we have two options, either apply the TRQ's we have proposed to the WTO pre acceptance or drop to 0% for everyone, neither puts us in a better position or makes food cheaper.
@ nsld
"Christ on a bike not this rubbish again"
Yes because funny enough the fact stands and kicks the ass of the fear fools.
"we are beneficiaries of 759 trade agreements with the rest of the world that pretty much remove all tariffs on the food we consume."
Pretty much? Thats an asterisk moment.
"neither puts us in a better position or makes food cheaper."
Sorry but that is where you need to prove your position since you are going massively against even remainer outlet knowledge.
"Sorry but that is where you need to prove your position since you are going massively against even remainer outlet knowledge."
You can start with this:
https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/25/brexit-mps-tweet-about-foreign-lemons-didnt-go-down-too-well-7976838/
Then maybe why don't you list all the tariffs you say apply to foods imported into the UK, remember to include quota levels because a headline tariff which appears high may never kick in because the quota is more than the country can produce.
If you need help on tariffs the government provides a really handy tool.
This is for high quality Navel Oranges, and like most quitlings you will latch onto the 3.2% and the €81.33 per 100kg duty and tariff, read past the default and look at all those 0% deals with all those citrus producing countries. It also varies by time of year as we don't want crap produce coming into the market so its seasonally adjusted.
https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0805102210?day=3&month=10&year=2018#import
And if you need a saddle for your donkey post brexit you will be pleased to know we have a huge number of 0% tariff deals thanks to our EU membership.....
https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/4201000010#import
@ nsld
"You can start with this:"
I was waiting for at least one remainer to shoot you down for me as it is a common (and not incorrect) argument that brexit would cause inefficient farmers to go out of business as they lose the protectionism for their over expensive produce. Basically because we can import cheaper than now and will not necessarily prop up the industry.
https://capx.co/food-will-be-cheaper-after-brexit-if-we-ignore-special-interests/
"You can start with this:"
I was waiting for at least one remainer to shoot you down for me as it is a common (and not incorrect) argument that brexit would cause inefficient farmers to go out of business as they lose the protectionism for their over expensive produce. Basically because we can import cheaper than now and will not necessarily prop up the industry.
https://capx.co/food-will-be-cheaper-after-brexit-if-we-ignore-special-interests/
===
Thats the Minford fantasy or removing all tariff barriers for everything, straight from the 55 Tufton Steet think tanks in a publication which has been universally debunked on many issues from imaginary coffee tariffs to citrus fruit and beyond.
You might want to consider that even Minford says it will end UK manufacturing and Agriculture if implemented.
What it also does is remove protections for emerging nations and simply benefits the huge agro industrires.
You also ignore the lower buying power of weak sterling, but then, you ignore every other fact so no great surprise on that one.
But just for laughs, how is dropping all our 0% tariff deals and then opening borders to the world at 0% with no protections for UK industries going to make stuff cheaper when that very action will drop the £ by between 10 and 15%?
@ nsld
"Thats the Minford fantasy or removing all tariff barriers for everything"
Is that a concept of free trade where tariffs are economically recognized as a cost on those applying the tariff. The measured loss of jobs for the US applying steel tariffs against China. And since you state we have zero tariffs on an amount of food (your argument) so continuing with that and reducing EU tariffs on other things seems to marry your thoughts on this to mine. Hmm.
"You might want to consider that even Minford says it will end UK manufacturing and Agriculture if implemented."
So? Agriculture which is unable to compete with the global market (be outward looking like us leave voters) and manufacturing which is still a growing industry in this country if slower than the service industry. Do we want jobs and prosperity or are you seriously arguing against it?
"What it also does is remove protections for emerging nations and simply benefits the huge agro industrires."
Eh? It would increase jobs in the emerging nations and if they have improved food production for export then surely it will improve availability in that country. And if you are seriously arguing that farming would struggle because we would import more then you are arguing against your previous comment because it would be cheaper to import (or we wouldnt do it).
"You also ignore the lower buying power of weak sterling, but then, you ignore every other fact so no great surprise on that one."
No I dont. The over strong currency we were told needed to come down before the referendum did and now you complain about it. Yet you complain about losing manufacturing which would happen with an over strong currency.
You really dont have a clue.
Lets get back to your original premise, that food will be cheaper.
Which foods and by how much?
Once you've answered that simple question we can maybe look at the issue of food security and reliance on imports once you have decimated the UK's farming industry.
@ nsld
"You really dont have a clue."
I must agree you have lost me since you seem to argue food will not be cheaper but our farming will somehow struggle (it will because importing without high tariffs is cheaper). You seem to be arguing that food is already zero rated and so will not be cheaper, but then agreeing that farmers cant compete internationally.
"Which foods and by how much?"
Lets start with the ridiculously easy one- chicken from the US is much cheaper than in the EU.
"look at the issue of food security and reliance on imports"
We are already there. We cannot provide enough food in this country for the people in this country. We already rely on imports.
"Which foods and by how much?"
Lets start with the ridiculously easy one- chicken from the US is much cheaper than in the EU.
"look at the issue of food security and reliance on imports"
We are already there. We cannot provide enough food in this country for the people in this country. We already rely on imports.
=======
Lets also ask why the US has a food poising rate thats nearly 10 times that of the EU, and thats according to the CDC.
What do you think the cost of transport would add to the chicken cost?
And given the wholesale price is €1.85 per kg in the EU and $2.02 cents in the US we are talking a difference of 10c per kg wholesale before you ship it to the UK.
So is that 10c worth it for animals raised thigh deep in faeces in appaling conditions and an industry with chronic safety and hygene issues?
And you answer to a weak policy on food security is to make it weaker!
Fancy eating 1-2lb of maggots, fly eggs and mites per year? Try some US food standards!
@ nsld
"Lets also ask why the US has a food poising rate thats nearly 10 times that of the EU, and thats according to the CDC."
And that is why when negotiating trade we negotiate what we import to our standards and exports to theirs. That is how trade works you know?
"What do you think the cost of transport would add to the chicken cost?"
No idea. Which is why people will import what sells and wont bother with what wont, but if you think it is prohibitive then surely you will be happy for the farmers here?
"And you answer to a weak policy on food security is to make it weaker!"
No. The fact that you seem opposed to trade doesnt shock me though. Explains why you would want to hide behind the EU borders, outsource the work to the EU and pretend the world doesnt exist beyond.
"I always wince when I hear we have a poor hand to play. "
That would be the grim realisation that your beloved Brexit is a monumental gangfuck.
Politics aside we sit in the most sophisticated and powerful trade bloc on the planet which is leading the convergance paths of the other trade blocs to make trade simpler and remove frictions and barriers.
And the UK response because a minority of shouty xenophobes don't like 'forrin' accents and also fancy making a fast buck on a crashing pound is to bin it all and strike out alone like the Crimson Permanent Assurance.
If you want a free trade deal we can join EFTA (the clue is in the FTA bit!) and if we want to remove frictions to trade and enjoy other global deals we can form a customs union. Then its only about trade rules, you can meet the binary referendum and stop a few pointy heads making a killing.
"Of the two sides we can get what we want unilaterally by just not participating in the project (aka leave). "
Except that "what we want" is quite different across a wide swath of pro-Brexiteers, and totally incompatible with some of the realities on the ground. For example, if you REALLY just leave, that automatically implies an Irish border.
"I always wince when I hear we have a poor hand to play. Of the two sides we can get what we want unilaterally by just not participating in the project (aka leave). The EU is in a less envious position as they really dont want a net contributor to leave the fragile project"
And how is that a bargaining chip? Whatever the EU offers us we are still leaving anyway so this on it's own is no incentive to offer us anything. People who think that the EU needs us more than we need them and that German businesses will go to the wall if we don't get a deal are deluded. For example in 2017 BMW sold 117K cars to the UK which sounds like a lot, but they sold 2.4M to everyone else who wasn't us. Besides do you really think that your average BMW driver will start driving Nissans and Vauxhalls post Brexit because a BMW/Audi/Merc costs 10% (the standard WTO tariff) more?
>For example in 2017 BMW sold 117K cars to the UK which sounds like a lot, but they sold 2.4M to everyone else who wasn't us.
BMW increased sales in China by around 80,000 in 2017. So if all UK BMW car sales stop tomorrow then within 2 years that loss will be covered by sales in China.
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