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back to article 'Men only' job ad posts land Facebook in boiling hot water with ACLU

Facebook is under fire for allowing companies to allegedly unfairly post on the social network job ads specifically for men – and not women. The American Civil Liberties Union and Outten & Golden LLP, an employment law firm, on Tuesday dragged the tech giant and ten employers before the US Equal Employment Opportunity …

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      1. NiceCuppaTea
        Reply Icon

        "Slightly off topic, but it does strike me as odd that religious and political views are given the same protection as race, gender or sexuality. Race, gender or sexuality are innately unchangeable."

        Ever heard of sex change operations, Michael Jackson or Theresa May (one look at her naked would put me off women for life)?

        2 2 Reply
      2. Timmy B
        Reply Icon

        @jmch

        I totally agree. The only decider of if you get a job is if you can do that job better than all the other people applying. You should be treated decently as you treat others decently.

        Bill and Ted had it sussed: "Be excellent to each-other....

        … and Party on Dudes!"

        5 0 Reply
      3. eldakka
        Reply Icon

        @jmch

        *or indoctrinated

        By definition if you have been indoctrinated - as many religions do from an early age - then it is not a choice or a formed/informed opinion.

        2 0 Reply
        1. jmch Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          "By definition if you have been indoctrinated - as many religions do from an early age - then it is not a choice or a formed/informed opinion."

          Yes and no. I was an indoctrinated catholic. But, luckily, I was also educated and exposed to other ideas, giving me the opportunity to change my views on the matter. I can say the same for many of my peers.

          Indoctrination isn't just the early-age stage (although that is foundational), it's a continuous process. And indoctrination can be broken by education and life experiences

          0 0 Reply
      4. mtnbiker1185
        Reply Icon

        Might have something to do with there never being wars fought, and people slaughtered, over their preference of pet.

        0 1 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Unless there is an overwhelming physical or sociological reason that only a particular sex can do a job...

      Exactly! Science has proved that chicks can't code. Fact.

      1 6 Reply
      1. katrinab Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Given that it was a woman who invented programming, I don’t think so. And up until about 1970, the number of inventions by women was far larger than the number of inventions by men.

        4 1 Reply
      2. Someone Else Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        @dumber-n-soup AC

        Exactly! Science has proved that chicks can't code. Fact.

        Dumbest.

        Post.

        Evah!

        Not sure if you are simply a troll or a moron. Naturally, that could be an inclusive 'or'.

        I make the assumption you know what an inclusive 'or' is...that may prove to be a stretch....

        2 0 Reply
  2. colinb

    Sourcing jobs from Facebook?

    "thus excluding users outside of the selected groups from learning about these opportunities"

    I'm all for giving these retarded companies a kicking but why over-egg your case with fake bombast.

    If you really want to be surrounded by people with no life experience and even less morals here you go:

    https://www.facebook.com/careers/

    https://www.uber.com/en-IE/careers/

    3 3 Reply
  3. Jonathan Richards 1

    The language is wrong

    A targeted indication of a job vacancy is not an advertisement. It's an invitation sent to a defined group. The degree of definition is the very essence of what makes FB et al. multi-billion dollar businesses.

    Short of saturating spaces with bill-boards and posters, there was always a degree of this going on, in that people seeking to fill vacancies would select particular newspapers to carry their advertisements. That wasn't as exclusive as the FB invitation model, though. Anyone could buy The Guardian, or the Times Literary Supplement and see the job advertisements. Without non-targeted, i.e. proper, advertising, excluded groups, (who are as finely and completely excluded as FB can possibly manage), never SEE these opportunities. That, by definition, gives employers the tools to exercise bias and prejudice.

    It should be a function of job market regulation to ensure that vacancies are properly advertised, and FB invitations don't count, in my opinion.

    8 2 Reply
    1. eldakka
      Reply Icon
      Thumb Up

      Re: The language is wrong

      @Jonathan Richards 1

      A targeted indication of a job vacancy is not an advertisement. It's an invitation sent to a defined group. The degree of definition is the very essence of what makes FB et al. multi-billion dollar businesses.

      That is a very interesting, and nuanced, take on the matter. Advertisement vs invitation.

      I like it.

      3 1 Reply
  4. Warm Braw

    There is no place for discrimination on Facebook

    True; it's equally vile wherever you look.

    For all Facebook's faults, however, this isn't a new phenomenon. Employers have always targeted advertisements - knowingly or unknowingly - by the choice of publication in which those advertisements were placed.

    More interesting is that potential employers continue to believe they have any meaningful influence over the suitability of the candidates they eventually hire. Many selection techniques pick the "right" candidate less than 50% of the time*. The most commonly used (the unstructured interview) delivers a good candidate around 31% of the time. So the arguments about whether any form of discrimination is "justified" are pretty much futile. As long as you can get some evidence that people have approximately the right skill set, you might as well just pick them at random unless it's the kind of job for which it's worth putting people through a rigorous assessment centre process (where you can get the likelihood of a good hire up to 68%).

    *Fundamentals of Human Resource Management: Managing People at Work

    By Derek Torrington, Stephen Taylor

    2 2 Reply
    1. Spudley
      Reply Icon

      Re: There is no place for discrimination on Facebook

      For all Facebook's faults, however, this isn't a new phenomenon. Employers have always targeted advertisements - knowingly or unknowingly - by the choice of publication in which those advertisements were placed.

      You're right, there is a comparison to be made with placing a job advert in a magazine with a known strong demographic. You may advertise for a builder in a DIY magazine, knowing full well that most of the people reading it are going to be men.

      The difference is that a woman who is looking for a job as a builder does have the option to buy the magazine. She may be in a minority, but she can still access the job advert if that's what she wants. On Facebook, the adverts were explicitly only sent to men, and the woman looking for that job would never have had the opportunity to see it.

      That's why this is being claimed as sexist where other forms of demographic targetting are not.

      7 0 Reply
      1. Someone Else Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        @Spudley -- Re: There is no place for discrimination on Facebook

        You may advertise for a builder in a DIY magazine, knowing full well that most of the people reading it are going to be men.

        If that is indeed the case, then that is discriminatory. One would better advertise (not "invite") in a DIY magazine, knowing full well that most of the people reading it are skilled in construction, mechanical engineering, are part of the "maker" community, etc.

        I know several women who know their way around CAD programs and CNC machines, and might just read such magazines.

        1 0 Reply
  5. Ken 16 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Lookalike Targeting

    I think that option will be self selecting in a different way as the companies using it succumb to group think and go out of business through too many yes men. Diverse experiences make for diverse opinions and a healthier approach to business planning.

    7 0 Reply
    1. baud
      Reply Icon

      Re: Lookalike Targeting

      On the other hand, a cohesive group will not get into shouting matches/get torn apart about divisive subjects.

      Some diversity is important to have enough different viewpoints and possible solutions, but it has its downsides.

      3 4 Reply
      1. Crazy Operations Guy
        Reply Icon

        Re: Lookalike Targeting

        "On the other hand, a cohesive group will not get into shouting matches/get torn apart about divisive subjects."

        I've found that the more homogeneous a group is, the more they are going to fight about trivial bullshit and fright more intensely. Like when you bring up bracket styles in development chat rooms / mailing lists and they'll be an inch away from stabbing someone over whether the function closing bracket gets its own line or not.

        4 1 Reply
  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Facebook "jobs"

    Well to my eyes, seems all Facebook "jobs" in the UK are actually disguised data harvesting exercises where you submit all your details for a chance to get a job "evaluating" some piece of tat, and where your payment is ... one piece of tat.

    So the ladies here may have had a lucky escape ....

    4 0 Reply

  7. This post has been deleted by its author

  8. fords42

    No wonder we need women only spaces, given the state of the comments here...

    13 12 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      WTF?

      Girls are made of sugar and spice, and all things nice.

      No wonder we need women only spaces, given the state of the comments here...

      Women are no different to men when it comes to being vicious, intolerant and unpleasant. Maybe you should look at at Mumsnet more often.

      11 2 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Girls are made of sugar and spice, and all things nice.

        Women are also capable of love, kindness, intelligence and many more positive things.

        AC because identity doesn't matter, and I expect down votes.

        6 1 Reply
      2. sabroni Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Women are no different to men when it comes to being vicious, intolerant and unpleasant.

        Citation please! I've only got personal experience to go on, just 50 years, so the fact that in my experience vicious, intolerant and unpleasant men massively outnumber vicious, intolerant and unpleasant women may just be me projecting. You sound like you've got data, please share!

        7 4 Reply
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Women are no different to men when it comes to being vicious, intolerant and unpleasant.

          I was bullied out of my previous career by my female manager. I've had lots of other managers since then, both male and female who have been fine.

          So anecdotally women can be just as bad as men, and men can be just as good as women. In my previous career (teacher) fights between boys tended to be violent, short and swift and then matters were settled. Fights between girls were vicious, long drawn out and would involve lots of bullying over periods of months where an effort was made to psychologically harm the opponent. Girls can be very nasty so don't even think that one gender is better than the other. Maybe you've just come across less nasty women because they've not been in a position to be nasty to you?

          I also recall reading about surveys where most social media bullying of women is carried out by other women.

          7 2 Reply
      3. katrinab Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Girls are made of sugar and spice, and all things nice.

        I don’t know any women who like Mumsnet, and I know plenty who actively boycott “Mumsnet Rated” products. They should be shut down as a terrorist / hate organisation, and I’m not exaggerating. Especially after their recent attacks on the NSPCC.

        0 2 Reply
  9. E_Nigma

    Is it discrimination

    The point of targeted ads is that they are to be shown to people more likely to click on them and go for what you are advertising. If one in 100 guys is a truck driver and just one in 1600 women is (numbers roughly correct for the US), then, since you're paying to have your job ad shown, you only pay to show it to guys, because otherwise you're wasting half of your money by paying to show the ad to people who are 16 times less likely to go for it.

    4 12 Reply
    1. Bronek Kozicki
      Reply Icon

      Re: Is it discrimination

      It is still discrimination. The fact that it is financially motivated does not make it less discriminatory. Also, from the point of view of someone who has worked with women programmers in the past (and is hoping to work with them in the future), more diversity at positions traditionally dominated by men is a good thing. I do not mean "eye candy", but diversity of opinions and approaches to problem solving. Hiring managers who place such discriminatory ads are doing themselves and their employers a disservice.

      17 1 Reply
      1. E_Nigma
        Reply Icon

        Re: Is it discrimination

        A have a few female coworkers at the moment and I appreciate them very much. Smart, hard working, dependable, well mannered, and I really mean all those things (which also generally apply to my male colleagues as well, it's a really nice team). I absolutely wouldn't turn anyone's job application down based on gender, race etc, but that is one thing.

        A completely different thing is: you have an offer for which you will pay to be displayed to people on Facebook; you can't have it displayed to everyone as it's prohibitively expensive; therefore you pick parameters of a population that's most likely to respond positively so that you can get the best response for your money; if the job is in the US, you probably don't need to show that message to people in Germany; if 16/17 professionals in that branch are male, you target men with that paid ad. Because if you, say, pay $100 to have the job offer shown to 10000 random people, the expected number of truckers that you reached is 100. If you pay the same $100 to show the offer to 10000 random men, you've most likely reached somewhere around 200 truckers (supposedly, there are around 3.5M truckers in the US). The yield doubles.

        That's unless you have reliable access to much more private information about everyone, such as previous job experience (in which case, of course, you pick those who have worked in the field), and that still doesn't mean that you turn down women who apply for the job.

        3 3 Reply
        1. Bronek Kozicki
          Reply Icon

          Re: Is it discrimination

          It is not illegal to limit the job ad reach according to locality. It is illegal to limit the job ad reach according to gender (or race, age, religion, sexual preferences etc). I know, to a hyper-logical brain of a talented software engineer (with a slight deficiency on empathy side) that does not make sense, but nevertheless that's how it is. And if you think about the reasons why this is (something to do with personal identity) it might just start making sense.

          11 1 Reply
          1. Bernard M. Orwell
            Reply Icon

            Re: Is it discrimination

            "It is not illegal to limit the job ad reach according to locality. It is illegal to limit the job ad reach according to gender."

            Mmhm. Quite so. Perhaps then you can explain these businesses and their hiring policy?

            http://www.femalebuilders.co.uk/index.html (Female only builders)

            https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/10786110/White-van-women-Men-shout-at-us-for-being-sexist-were-a-girls-only-removal-firm.html (Female only logistics)

            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42997068 (We only publish female writers)

            http://worldscreen.com/tveurope/2018/01/31/new-london-based-all-female-production-company-launches/ (Women only theatrical production/promotion company)

            or, how about all these jobs that are advertised as female only? Granted, some of them should be (female models, gym instructors, carers etc.) but some should not (modelling agent, Sales assistant, early years practitioner etc.).

            https://www.indeed.co.uk/Female-jobs-in-London

            If people want equality then they need to practice equality. The Law should be applied equally to all, and opportunity should be open to all.

            And yes, these companies are breaking the law.

            https://www.hattonjameslegal.co.uk/are-women-only-businesses-legal-in-employment-law/

            2 2 Reply
            1. Bronek Kozicki
              Reply Icon

              Re: Is it discrimination

              @Bernard M. Orwell I believe you are right (cannot access that www.hattonjameslegal.co.uk link now), but that does not make "men only" job ads any less wrong.

              6 0 Reply
              1. Bernard M. Orwell
                Reply Icon

                Re: Is it discrimination

                Here's another link that will be useful to anyone discussing this situation in the UK. It's the law, clearly explained, by the Citizens Advice Bureau. It lays out precisely what is and is not discrimination. Take special note of the illegality of provision of services based on gender and the fact that Positive Discrimination is still discrimination.

                https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/discrimination-because-of-sex-or-sexual-orientation/discrimination-because-of-sex/

                4 0 Reply
                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Reply Icon
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Is it discrimination

                  The word you are looking for is sex, not gender. Sex is a protected characteristic, gender isn't.

                  0 0 Reply
            2. eldakka
              Reply Icon

              Re: Is it discrimination

              @Bernard M. Orwell

              I'm not quite sure what your point is. You say:

              ..Perhaps then you can explain these businesses and their hiring policy?..

              ...or, how about all these jobs that are advertised as female only? ..

              Asking for an explanation why, but then you make your own sound conclusion:

              And yes, these companies are breaking the law.

              Yes, they are breaking the law. What's that got to do with this topic? The ACLU are suing Facebook for, potentially, breaking the law. They aren't suing those businesses you've listed.

              What's the relevance that others are also breaking the law? How does that impact the ACLU's case against Facebook?

              "Other people do it too" is not a defense in a court of law. "Other people do it too" doesn't make it right.

              If you have problems with those companies practices, then you do something about it, you begin a lawsuit against them for discrimination.

              4 0 Reply
              1. mtnbiker1185
                Reply Icon

                Re: Is it discrimination

                I think his point is that it wasn't a problem when the ads were "women only", but only became a problem when someone made "men only" ads. I.e. the fact that it became a discrimination problem is discrimination in and of itself due to why it became a problem. In other words, when the ads were targeting women everyone was OK with it, but now that someone is targeting just men it's a problem.

                Kind of like how the U.S.'s Affirmative Action policy was designed to fight racism while being racist itself.

                1 1 Reply
          2. mtnbiker1185
            Reply Icon

            Re: Is it discrimination

            Is it though? It is illegal to not hire someone based on sex, but advertising is a different story. Otherwise, tampon companies would be required to have just as many ads in Men's Health as they do in Women's Health. It is also perfectly legal for insurance companies to charge different rates based on sex. To the point, someone recently made the news for changing his sex to female so he wouldn't pay so much in car insurance.

            1 1 Reply
    2. jmch Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Is it discrimination

      "If one in 100 guys is a truck driver and just one in 1600 women is (numbers roughly correct for the US), then, since you're paying to have your job ad shown, you only pay to show it to guys, because otherwise you're wasting half of your money by paying to show the ad to people who are 16 times less likely to go for it."

      That's awful reasoning. You're assuming that the choices are:

      a- target women and get one in 1600 people interested

      b- target the general population and have one in 850 people interested

      c- target men and get one in 100 people interested

      So choose option (c)

      But actually if I have a powerful ad platform like Facebook or Google that can finely target a given demographic, I would choose option (d) - target groups of people who are probably truck drivers. Based on how good the FB / Google / other ad networks' algorithms are, it's not going to be a 100% match, but it will certainly be better than 1/100.

      12 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Targeting peopel who are already truck drivers

        Well that's fine if you are looking to fill a position that requires experience and you don't want to train them. What about entry level jobs. Let's say cooks and servers in a diner. If the diner has been around a decade and only had one female cook and one male server and dozens of the other sex, an owner on a tight budget probably considers it a waste of money to advertise both positions to both sexes.

        If there was a way to target "people who would consider working as a cook" and "people who would consider working as a server" obviously you'd MUCH rather target that way than by male or female. But that's not the reality, you can only target those who already have those jobs, which greatly limits your reach (and is a zero sum game if everyone does it)

        Plus, it isn't like Facebook would be your ONLY job posting. Maybe you advertise on a community website that offers flat rate help wanted ads, which are open to anyone to see. Maybe you post a sign on your door that you need a cook or a server. Maybe you take out a classified ad in the local paper or on Craigslist.

        Is it so terrible to discriminate (without any intention to restrict the positions by sex) in ONE avenue of advertising, when others are equal?

        0 1 Reply
        1. eldakka
          Reply Icon

          Re: Targeting peopel who are already truck drivers

          @Doug

          an owner on a tight budget probably considers it a waste of money to advertise both positions to both sexes.

          The law in this matter doesn't care whether the owner thinks it is (or it in fact is) a waste of money of not.

          It's a waste of money to properly dispose of the rubbish generated, therefore it's ok to just toss all the rubbish onto the street?

          Is it so terrible to discriminate (without any intention to restrict the positions by sex) in ONE avenue of advertising, when others are equal?

          There is an intention to discriminate by sex, it's right there in the options that the advertiser explicitly chose to select in the advert. Or are you saying the advertiser didn't explicitly select the option to target a specific sex? That Facebook did it automatically for them?

          Any avenue of advertising that allows you to explicitly, with specificity target - for or against - a protected class is discriminatory. Sure, you could put ads up only in YMCA notice boards, which implicitly targets young men. But there is a difference between explicit and implicit. Explicit is definitely illegal, implicit you might be able to get away with.

          3 0 Reply
          1. FrozenShamrock
            Reply Icon

            Re: Targeting peopel who are already truck drivers

            By the way, the YMCA in the US is gender neutral; anyone can join and use the facilities so posting on a YMCA notice board would be posting to all types of people.

            0 0 Reply

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. Muppet Boss
        Reply Icon

        Re: Is it discrimination

        Imho, when you choose option (d) and target truck drivers in your truck driver job ad campaign, you are clearly discriminating against non-truck drivers who might be interested in applying for and capable of doing the job but will never have a chance of seeing the ad...

        I understand why people think that discrimination is bad but do not accept it myself that any discrimination is inherently bad. This is a part of human nature, like discriminating strangers in favour of your family. Known attempts of changing the human nature and creating an impartial Übermensch failed miserably and catastrophically. Look, Apple fans!

        The modern Western society defines certain 'protected categories/groups/classes', where negative discrimination is not acceptable. gender being one of them. Interestingly, positive discrimination if often tolerated and even encouraged, rationale being righting the past wrongs or just guilt. Then there's reverse discrimination and quotas...

        The ads in this case seem to be negatively discriminating a protected category and feel unfair ("seem to" due to limited info available and the accused party's point of view not present).

        What if the ads were exclusively targeted at women or seniors to "attract diversity into traditionally male-dominated industries", would these be seen as discriminating and unfair?

        It looks like there are cases where discriminating 'protected categories' is generally accepted by the Western society. Targeted tampon ads? Targeted ads for 'family hotels'? 'Child-free' hotels? 'Gay-friendly' hotels? Targeted ads for 'shaving subscriptions'? Oh yeah, surely there are poor souls deeply offended by not seeing these...

        0 2 Reply
  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Advertising is different from hiring

    Presumably there is nothing stopping anyone looking on the careers page of companies they want to work for from time to time?

    Are online job sites and their customers discriminating against low income and older people who have less access to online services? Is anyone suing these companies to force them to advertise in the local community newspapers?

    3 4 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Advertising is different from hiring

      Advertising in newspapers could be considered reverse age discrimination. How many people in their 20s do you know that subscribe to a local newspaper - either print or electronically? Their demographics are tilted heavily toward older people, who have subscribed to their local paper for decades. When the baby boomers die, 98% of the newspaper industry will die with them.

      1 2 Reply
  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wow

    I see the MRAs are out in force this morning. I wonder if people defending Uber's discrimination realize that they are the exact reason we need laws against discrimination?

    11 8 Reply
  12. Little Mouse

    I've got the answer

    First, we need a great big melting pot, big enough to take the world and all its got...

    1 0 Reply
  13. MonkeyCee

    Gender bias in advertising

    There are a few things going on here. The actual case seems pretty clear cut even with only my limited understanding of employment law. Business students in the EU are expected to be aware of US employment law :)

    Firstly, if it's illegal to only advertise a job to one gender, then "target only male/female" shouldn't be an option for job ads. Same for all the other rules about what you can and can't bias against (ie only targeting ads at people with a STEM degree is probably OK).

    The more fuzzy problem is that even without explicitly excluding women from the advertising pool, women will (generally) be shown less of the ad anyway. Because Facebook (and google et al) charges more for a woman's ad impression than a man's. That's not artificial either, advertisers pay more because there is more demand for it.

    This effect doubles down for professional women, as they have more disposable income, so they are even more expensive to buy impressions for.

    Thus you can get a gender bias in job ad impressions without any "girls can't do it" crap, just because other people will pay more to get those eyeballs.

    As for women in the workforce, my overwhelming impression has been that they are generally harder working, paid less and much more adapt at reducing social friction. Obviously many exceptions abound, this being humanity and all. But the best sysadmin, change control, problem management, mechanic/inventor and IT managers I've known have been all been women.

    12 9 Reply
    1. MrMerrymaker
      Reply Icon

      Re: Gender bias in advertising

      I like how you got down votes for that!

      4 3 Reply
      1. Spazturtle Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Gender bias in advertising

        Because he ended his post with some drivel about women getting paid less which is not true. For the same job women get paid the same as men, 1) it is a legal requirement to pay people the same and 2) if it was true companies would try and only hire women to save costs.

        3 9 Reply
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gender bias in advertising

          "some drivel about women getting paid less which is not true"

          Really? The OECD would beg to differ.

          https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/gender-wage-gap.htm

          5 3 Reply

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