MPs slam HMRC's 'deeply worrying' lack of post-Brexit customs system MPs have today warned of the "catastrophic" scenario of UK taxmen at HMRC failing to have a back-up system in place if its Customs Declaration Service (CDS) programme is not ready in time for Brexit. A failed customs system could lead to huge disruption for businesses, with delays potentially causing massive queues at Dover …
>That is a really good question.
Well, we could ask the experts. Most economists think that our farming industry would not be able to compete with cheaper imports without increasing payments to them from the government.
But, you could argue that they are Remainers, so how about Patrick Minford who is one of the biggest advocates of zero tariffs. He reckons it will destroy the UK farming (and manufacturing) industries but the other industries will eventually do better.
Or maybe Pete North, who was very involved in the Leave campaign. He thinks it will be a disaster, as going to WTO would be. So do Leave.UK.
So, that doesn't actually leave many people that think reducing tariffs for food would be a good idea. Perhaps you have a Nobel prize in economics and could explain how it would work, because the experts seem fairly united in believing it won't.
Even if we did benefit in the short term from reducing the tariffs to zero for cheaper food it is doubtful that would happen over the long-term. Once we are entirely reliant on imports the importers can start increasing the prices. Long-term we are looking at significant food price increases.
@AC
"Well, we could ask the experts. Most economists think that our farming industry would not be able to compete with cheaper imports without increasing payments to them from the government."
Ok. So we can either be forced to buy overpriced home grown (subsidy) or we all have cheaper food. And it is unlikely who whole farming market would collapse, they would likely do something productive that meets a need/desire that we are not forced to subsidise. This would also help poor countries better than our aid programs.
"as going to WTO would be"
I have yet to hear this disaster of WTO. Some people seem to think we have to charge the maximum tariffs or something but the WTO sets maximum tariffs. As discussed above the farming policy in the EU is protectionist, and of course to the detriment of the poor world who can supply that market cheaper.
"because the experts seem fairly united in believing it won't."
You gave 2 examples. 1 who thinks its a good idea, one who thinks its bad. If you count nobody as thinking its a good idea then you may need to reword your comment. Are we trying to support farmers or the population of the country? Are farmers more important than everyone else in this country? I dont consider them less important but I dont see how they are more important. We cant grow enough to support the population here. We import a great amount of our food.
"Even if we did benefit in the short term from reducing the tariffs to zero for cheaper food it is doubtful that would happen over the long-term. Once we are entirely reliant on imports the importers can start increasing the prices. Long-term we are looking at significant food price increases."
Well that doesnt work does it. China had the monopoly on rare earths so bumped up the price to take advantage. But it is a contestable monopoly and Australia took that monopoly away because they could do it cheaper than China would sell it. Same with oil prices now with OPEC and fracking. Are you telling me it is harder to restart agriculture if it becomes cost effective to do so? And since it would be raising the quality of life in the poorer countries that we can buy food from it would reduce the worlds poor and dying. Long term its a pretty good policy.
I cannot help feeling that it might be a really good idea to buy in a year's supply of cans in time for Brexit day.
That will cost maybe one or two thousand pounds, and if the Brexiteers are right then I'll get to eat the food over time anyway. But if, God forbid, all those economists are right and we don't enter this new golden age that the Brexiteers have promised, but instead see our economy collapse to Venezuelan standards, then at least I won't starve before I can get out of the country.
those morons in charge who campaigned to leave thought that Article 50 contained a complete & comprehensive guide
I'm more surprised by the morons who seem to think that Leavers expected everything to be just perfect the day after we leave. Of course it won't be.
Brexit will take years of hard work to undo the damage and establish a decent result, especially if the remainers just sit back saying "Told you so" instead of doing something constructive. At least those of us who never wanted to join the EU in the first place did our best to make it work, untill we could get out.
Nothing worthwhile is ever easy, and sometimes you have to get out of your comfort zone to get some real improvements. Personally I think it will be worth it. We'll see.
'At least those of us who never wanted to join the EU in the first place did our best to make it work, until we could get out.'
No you didn't - all we heard was how bad the EU was and lies like they banned bendy bananas, while pushing for a referendum. We don't want to work to dig you out of the hole that you made. Suck it up - you won after all.
"all we heard was how bad the EU was"
Probably because it is
"and lies like they banned bendy bananas"
Thats a cute interpretation on the fact that the EU have made a criminal offence over the shape of a banana. One that will result in a fine and possibly 6 month jail.
"while pushing for a referendum"
A democratic vote we had never had about our membership of the EU. And once we got the democratic (if highly rigged by remain) vote it gave the 'wrong' answer and now remain want democracy scrapped.
"We don't want to work to dig you out of the hole that you made"
You do realise that this country is only as good as the people make it. So if your not willing to participate it is your country you are refusing to help. Surely thats cutting ones nose?
"Suck it up - you won after all."
Is that the taste of sour grapes?
>Thats a cute interpretation on the fact that the EU have made a criminal offence over the shape of a banana. One that will result in a fine and possibly 6 month jail.
The shape of a banana does not and cannot result in a criminal offence. The laws (of which there have been two) are relating to the labeling applied to the bananas for sale. It is an offence to categorize a banana incorrectly as class 1 when it is excessively bendy and should be class 2.
@AC don't bother - i've already explained in depth to codejunky the EU directive in question and how it reflelcted our own mislabling of goods act and the penalties associated with it - but he doesn't want to know or care so keeps of dragging up the bendy banana misrepresentation like all good brexiteers.
@AC
"It is an offence to categorize a banana incorrectly as class 1 when it is excessively bendy and should be class 2."
Thank you for posting that. I hope you find it as funny as I do that the EU is concerned about bananas. Between that and dictating which fruits are correct to label the product jam (didnt one of these stupid laws effectively label a carrot a fruit as well?) I dont think they can get any funnier.
@codejunky
You mean like how we extensivly catagorise what everything is during trade negotiations to ensure everyone is working from a common understanding and framework?
Yes the UK had catgories for bananas before the EU directive.
I'm sure you will be looking forward to your chlorine washed chicken being described as farm fresh organic food?
I presume in your world caveat emptor is the only way to go?
@ Alt C
"You mean like how we extensivly catagorise what everything is during trade negotiations to ensure everyone is working from a common understanding and framework?"
Oh how the world was in chaos and fell apart until.... the EU finally applied a law to bendy bananas. It wasnt a criminal issue before but the EU fixed the world as it put pen to paper and made me laugh as it dictated the shape of a banana. And now we all sing and dance now the worlds problems have finally been solved after all these years of previously not having a criminal law against the bent banana.
"Yes the UK had catgories for bananas before the EU directive."
Surely you are picking up on this by now. Catagory != criminal law. Criminal law != category.
"I'm sure you will be looking forward to your chlorine washed chicken being described as farm fresh organic food?"
Isnt that the one the EU food standards passed as perfectly fine? And the US? And I dont know of the UK food standards having a problem with it (I am sure every remoaner would have screamed about it if so). So if a good chunk of the developed world food standards agencies think its ok I could listen to the experts or I could listen to.... dont you guys like experts? Or is it only when they tell you what you want to hear? I lay bets you consume things far worse than chlorine washed chicken.
"I presume in your world caveat emptor is the only way to go?"
I presume by that you are declaring your rejection of food standards agencies. The very agencies who approve this food and you consider that caveat emptor. Go on please do explain.
Surely you are picking up on this by now. Catagory != criminal law. Criminal law != category.
let me explain
it was an offence to mis-catagorise bananas and sell them. In the UK selling class B bananas as class A was an offence exactly the same as it is under the EU directive.
I never said anything about not agreeing with food standards please read again.
"I'm sure you will be looking forward to your chlorine washed chicken being described as farm fresh organic food?"
the key words there are 'being described as' - i.e. passing one product off as another - its what these regulations you find so funny stop happening.
I'll ignore rest of the rant as the usual tangental argument brexiteers indulge in.
@ Alt C
"it was an offence to mis-catagorise bananas and sell them. In the UK selling class B bananas as class A was an offence exactly the same as it is under the EU directive."
I direct you and the others above including ZSn who didnt believe it was true-
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/12/to-properly-explain-the-eus-bendy-bananas-rules-yes-theyre-real/#74db7ce96fc9
To make it clear this started with a lack of belief that this law existed and now having to tell you about the law your defending.
"I never said anything about not agreeing with food standards please read again."
So what is your argument about the chicken? Or do you assume it wont be labelled as such because the EU wont be singing you to bed every night?
"the key words there are 'being described as' - i.e. passing one product off as another - its what these regulations you find so funny stop happening."
No no no you have already said and I requote- "it was an offence to mis-catagorise bananas and sell them. In the UK selling class B bananas as class A was an offence exactly the same as it is under the EU directive." which I assume you meant mis-selling regulations which surely apply further than bananas since its the EU who criminalised bendy bananas and we thought they were nuts for it.
"I'll ignore rest of the rant as the usual tangental argument brexiteers indulge in."
You do usually I am used to it. I do find yours entertaining though.
@ H in The Hague
"Mate, I don't know where you get your idea that all bureaucracy comes from the EU."
Mate I dont know where you get your idea that I think that.
"The only upside I can see to Brexit is that when the powers that be can no longer blame stuff on Brussels, folk might realise that rather a lot of red tape (some of it useful, some of it not) is entirely homegrown."
I actually hope this does cause a cut in our red tape. An amount from the EU, an amount of bad implementation of EU ideas and plenty home grown.
"And as far as produce description (= consumer protection) legislation is concerned, the UK used to have that in the past too, and hopefully will still have it in future."
Tell Alt C that. He seems to think it is all going.
"I hope you find it as funny as I do that the EU is concerned about bananas."
Mate, I don't know where you get your idea that all bureaucracy comes from the EU. In the fields I'm familiar with (health and safety, and planning permission) the UK's rules are much more restrictive and detailed than here in NL, while not being anymore effective. E.g. the planning permission I got here in The Hague for a construction project in a conservation area is much shorter and less prescriptive than the planning permission for a little house on a bit of wasteland in Sussex (e.g. that includes requirements for the garden design and type of plants). And it's not just government, industry has form too: the UK CSCS construction site safety passport system is much more convoluted than the VCA system used in NL (and also BE and GER I think) while providing no more safety. (And yes, I've got both the CSCS and VCA cards.) The only upside I can see to Brexit is that when the powers that be can no longer blame stuff on Brussels, folk might realise that rather a lot of red tape (some of it useful, some of it not) is entirely homegrown. And as far as produce description (= consumer protection) legislation is concerned, the UK used to have that in the past too, and hopefully will still have it in future.
'Thats a cute interpretation on the fact that the EU have made a criminal offence over the shape of a banana. One that will result in a fine and possibly 6 month jail.'
Link to the relevant law please - not the Daily Heil.
'A democratic vote we had never had about our membership of the EU. And once we got the democratic (if highly rigged by remain) vote it gave the 'wrong' answer and now remain want democracy scrapped.'
And the xenophobic lies peddled by Goveno etc are not rigged - 350 million anyone?
How about another referendum then, or is democracy only correct when it gives the 'correct' answer, and then we can't change our mind afterwards?
'You do realise that this country is only as good as the people make it. So if your not willing to participate it is your country you are refusing to help. Surely thats cutting ones nose?'
If the country allows xenophobia and racism to grow like this then frankly it needs to get Brexit good and hard.
@ ZSn
"Link to the relevant law please - not the Daily Heil."
Sod that go talk to the 2 remainers above who are trying to defend this law. Apparently its about the label on the bendy banana not the bendy banana being labelled. Makes you wonder how the world spins without a law for it.
"And the xenophobic lies peddled by Goveno etc are not rigged - 350 million anyone?"
No thats not rigging that is lying. I dont defend his lying so feel free to tear into him. However the gov campaigning for a particular outcome (also the opposite outcome as the PM stated he would be backing, not that the gov should have campaigned) is rigging. Using tax payer money to do so is also rigging. Refusing to accept the possibility of an alternative (nobody but the gov had the power to negotiate with the EU for leave) is rigging. And of course the direct threat the chancellor made to the population with a budget that was designed to sink an economy and had no practical purpose beyond that. Thats rigging.
"How about another referendum then, or is democracy only correct when it gives the 'correct' answer, and then we can't change our mind afterwards?"
Sure. Why not. Of course after would be after we have left, had time to implement it, and by the argument of remain it will take years to sort this out so after that too. And if you can elect a party willing to sell the country to the EU which will require accepting the Euro and none of the opt outs then sure. If the EU is still around at that time
"If the country allows xenophobia and racism to grow like this then frankly it needs to get Brexit good and hard."
You are right. What the EU does to those poor countries is horrible, locking them out of trade. And the remainers comments about needing to be in the EU or be subjects of the horrible US or China does seem very anti-foreigner and fearing the world.
I know thats not what you ment but if you wish to suggest leavers are racist then it is just as valid to do the same to remainers.
Sod that go talk to the 2 remainers above who are trying to defend this law. Apparently its about the label on the bendy banana not the bendy banana being labelled. Makes you wonder how the world spins without a law for it.
Please just stop - we had the same fsking law in the UK before the EU directive - how many more times?
Apart from this one, you mean?
That was a vote to remain in the European Economic Community (EEC), otherwise known as the Common Market. The political entity called the EU wasn't created until almost 20 years after that, and there was no UK vote to join it. Only one to remain in it, which resulted in a choice of "leave".
all we heard was how bad the EU was and lies like they banned bendy bananas,
If that's all you heard you have very selective hearing.
The old common market (whose banana policies were replaced by the EU, FYI) worked pretty well. It solved a real post-war need. The EU brought in an unwanted and unecessary political dimension, purely to satisfy the vanity of politicians. Even the French barely agreed to join, we wouldn't have had we been asked (which is why John Major didn't ask).
Since the EU was created we've seen a drop in growth, a monetary system stumbling from crisis to crisis, and a massive Europe-wide increase in support for extremist and populist parties from people who see mainstream politics as offering no alternatives. If it goes on like that it will implode, messily.
Leaving is a drastic solution, it's a great pity that it became necessary and it will be painful, but at least we'll have a chance of a better future.
We don't want to work to dig you out of the hole that you made.
Fine, we'll do the digging for you, and maybe your kids will appreciate it. In the meantime it would be good if you at least wouldn't throw the dirt back in.
How interesting. Were you abroad when you voted?
I found it very telling that the Scottish Independence Referendum let almost anyone living in Scotland vote.
Because those people would mostly likely have to live with the consequences of their decision.
But you don't live in the UK. For you "Britain" is actually more a place inside your head, whose climate you don't experience and whose taxes (it appears) you don't pay.
I've often wondered how many UK elections have been decided by absentee "subjects" whose actual knowledge of the country is decades out of date.
But you don't live in the UK. For you "Britain" is actually more a place inside your head, whose climate you don't experience and whose taxes (it appears) you don't pay.
You really shouldn't make assumptions on things you know nothing about. I spend part of each year in the UK with my family and pay UK taxes on my UK income. I've spent more than half my life there so am very familiar with the climate.
I've often wondered how many UK elections have been decided by absentee "subjects" whose actual knowledge of the country is decades out of date.
Not as many as have been decided by people who have lived there all their life and still don't have a clue about the world beyond their own town, let alone lived in other countries to really understand how the world works.
A week after the Brexit vote I was round at a friends who had voted leave (I voted stay), watching tv and when the news came on after a few seconds he said he was sick of this Brexit thing and switched over, which left me with two thoughts - "I dunno what you're complaining about, you voted for this shit", and "it's not going away no matter how many times you change channels"
"he said he was sick of this Brexit thing and switched over"
Is that not a valid reaction? So far we have voted leave and had almost every day some moaning twit complain we should remain (either here or from the EU). There is always some doom sayer who will predict fire and brimstone, I assume some are the same who shout about god on street corners considering the fanaticism. Nearly 20 yrs to finally get the vote and the day after the result we hear of many ways to ignore the people, ditch democracy and declare anyone voting leave as idiots.
And we havnt even left yet.
His changing channels was not because of watching the complainers, but the news basically saying over and over in many different ways for days on end "Brexit is happening, but nobody in the leave campaign even thought about making plans if they won and they don't know what to do now." Well, apart from that Nigel "bin juice" Farage who had obviously planned to quit no matter which way the vote went.
@AC
"His changing channels was not because of watching the complainers, but the news basically saying over and over in many different ways for days on end "Brexit is happening, but nobody in the leave campaign even thought about making plans if they won"
So as I said. watching complainers who keep trying to get in the way of brexit.
"Farage who had obviously planned to quit no matter which way the vote went"
He didnt. He pissed off the EU by turning up as an elected MEP and bursting their bubble. It was funny to watch. Junkers face was a picture when he asked the dumb question of why Farage was there now that we had voted leave. I hoped the collective noise of remainers would rise up and say 'we aint left yet'.
"So as I said. watching complainers who keep trying to get in the way of brexit."
I don't see how people airing their views on the mess the leavers have created is "trying to get in the way of brexit."
"He pissed off the EU by turning up as an elected MEP and bursting their bubble. It was funny to watch."
Yes, hilarious. So much so I was in danger of splitting my sides, which could've been life threatening if it weren't for that extra £350m/week the NHS are now getting.
@AC
"I don't see how people airing their views on the mess the leavers have created is "trying to get in the way of brexit.""
Thats fine, that is the expected as we get with elections as we let off steam about a result we dont like. But legal challenges to stop the result being carried out is. As is unelected party members undermining the government. As is elected party members undermining the government. Add the ongoing propaganda campaign and constant misinformation (just read what I have been replying to on this topic) with repeated attempts to get a second referendum to undo the not yet implemented result of the previous referendum. Those are attempts to get in the way of brexit. We knew the referendum had the possibility of leave when it was proposed yet right now is this customs issue. Why? Is it the gov or civil service dragging their feet on this? And why? The result is known, hard brexit is very well expected so why?
"Yes, hilarious. So much so I was in danger of splitting my sides, which could've been life threatening if it weren't for that extra £350m/week the NHS are now getting."
The official leave campaign was almost as bad as the official remain campaign I know. What has that to do with Farage? He didnt campaign on that, the £350m could be given to the NHS was the official campaigns claim.
@ anonymous boring coward
"Yes, but that's not true either. (And to be more correct, the campaign didn't use the word "could".)"
I know. It was the usual politician speak or also known as duping the electorate. Its in a similar vain as Carney and Osborne claiming that everything the UK has been trying to achieve since 2008 is suddenly bad. Both official campaigns were awful.
@Codejunky - He pissed off the EU by turning up as an elected MEP and bursting their bubble. It was funny to watch. Junkers face was a picture when he asked the dumb question of why Farage was there now that we had voted leave.
I saw that performance - it demonstrated just how stupid he was!
If you look back at the fundamental issue - which Farage campaigned on for many years, it was a UK domestic issue, namely Parliament (potentially?) going beyond its remit and signing up to the various EU treaties without gaining the consent(?) of the British electorate. He also accepted the 1975 referendum result and thus wanted a trade agreement with the EU.
In this situation, the EU was a potential friend to Farage! Played correctly Farage could have got the EU on his side and laughing at the clowns in Westminster and negotiated a favourable deal whilst the UK sorts it's "mother of Parliaments" out. Instead, with this act, he both diminished himself and the UK and soured the atmosphere for the Brexit negotiations.
Well there you go then.
Planning sorted. *
*Actually I think they believed the Brexit fairy would wave her magic wand and it would all magically sort itself out.
Well how would you explain doing f**k all planning, other than positing the existence of a magical supernatural being with vast powers to sort out such a colossal s**tstorm ?
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