back to article Sorry, but those huge walls of terms and conditions you never read are legally binding

You may never read those lengthy terms and conditions attached to every digital download or app but, in America at least, they are legally binding. Sorry. That's the conclusion of a panel of appeal judges earlier this week when shining beacon of corporate responsibility Uber insisted its users had agreed not to sue the company …

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  1. Velv
    Boffin

    Standard T&Cs

    The sensible option would be to have a published standard set of conditions that we can all be familiar with and therefore should be easy to explain and accept.

    OK, so each business is going to argue their own unique nuance, but really, are any of them all that different.

    It's been done in Scotland. When you buy a property each sides solicitor/lawyer would draw up their version of the contract. Much back and forth would take place until agreement was reached. To simplify the process a Scottish Stand Clauses was approved by the Law Society.

    Perhaps this is something Which? or similar could champion (in the UK)

    1. Charles 9

      Re: Standard T&Cs

      Problem is, in many cases, one side and/or the other DON'T WANT the process to be simple.

      In your case, as is the case of a mutual contract between parties of equal standing, the buyers want to close the deal and move in and the sellers usually want to do something with the proceeds tout suite (such as buy another house, so domino effect), so both legal teams are pressed to hurry up lest the deal get abandoned out of impatience. Mutual contracts thus have motivation to get it over with.

      But most T&Cs that we think about are one-sided, "deal or no deal" propositions. Basically, the provider is in full control because if you don't bite, someone else will.

  2. Curtis

    "No one reads those"

    When I started at my current employer, on an Internet Hell Desk, I was assisting a new customer setting up a modem. Part of the setup includes walking through a walled garden that requires the customer agree to a "Terms of Service" This is as close to the exact wording as I can remember:

    Me: "Ok, now just read the Terms of Service, scroll down, and click agree."

    Her: "I'm a lawyer. No one reads these. I'll just agree."

    Me: "Umm, you really should have read that first. <Company Redacted> now owns your soul."

    Her: "I'm a red-head. I don't have one."

    Much humor was had, manglers got involved, and there was some talk about possible misconduct. The fact that the CUSTOMER said it saved my job.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    And that, kids, is why I DO read them: but what about fake names?

    My work requires extreme awareness of what happens to data as I have a duty to protect clients.

    This is why I read T&Cs and if you would have really worked your way through the ones that you, for instance, accepted when you started using Google and Facebook you would have never agreed to them.

    There is, however, a question I have not seen answered yet: what happens if you use a fake name when you sign up? I know that both FB and Google "insist" on people using their real name but as long as you use something halfway plausible and don't use it for messaging/email you would have a contract in a name of a person that would not exist, I don't think there's such a concept as a legal nom de plume in contract. The flipside of these agreements is that the worst they can do there is to shut down your account. That's possibly bad for people who live their live online but it would make zero difference in my case.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: And that, kids, is why I DO read them: but what about fake names?

      "what happens if you use a fake name when you sign up?"

      I think the position in the UK is that you can operate under as many names as you like as long as the aliases are not intended to fool someone. So, in your example, either you intend to use the name fraudulently, in which case they can sue you for fraud, or you don't intend that, in which case UK law (at least) says that "fake name" is your legitimate alias for the purposes of this contract.

    2. Snorlax Silver badge

      Re: And that, kids, is why I DO read them: but what about fake names?

      You could be seen as having accepted the terms of the contract through your continued use of the service (see Brogden v Metropolitan Railway), regardless of the name used to sign up.

      Celebrities operate social media accounts under their stage names, don't they?

  4. JulieM Silver badge

    Six Little Words

    There are six little words that appear in every set of Terms and Conditions, as follows:

    Your statutory rights are not affected.

    Meaning that whatever you may think you are agreeing to, anything the Law of the Land already gave you the ability to do, is still yours to do. You cannot legally enter into a contract which diminishes your rights under the Law of the Land. They might try to scare you off, but there are certain prohibitions they simply cannot enforce.

    Unfortunately, it's still your job to know what these are, and not their job to tell you -- apart from the six-word reminder that they even exist.

  5. Steve 114

    Obiter

    Was it not an English Judge of long ago who said: 'He who has eyes clear enough to read [these terms] has not experience enough to understand them' ?

  6. Ian Bremner

    So let me get this straight. In 'Murica, if you install an app you have to agree to a list of T&C's that are not actually presented to you but given as a link on a webserver that may not actually be online?

    **By reading this comment you agree to the Terms and Conditions outlined in the document which can be found in the basement of your local Planning Department in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door reading "Beware of the leopard".

    Please bring a torch as the lights aren't working (Neither are the stairs)

  7. ps2os2

    Uber

    This is typical of a dot com company to treat its users so poorly. I would never use them as the people that I know can't make a living off of it and they do work 12 hours a day.

  8. jrchips

    Wait until you get pages of virtually unreadable T&Cs for your autonomous vehicle.

    The bottom line will be; if you own it, it's yours and it's your responsibility even if the software's flawed. That's how the autonomous vehicle makers will try to escape liability. But it probably won't work. Class action lawsuits over vehicle-related deaths have been very successful. The tech industry and auto industry aren't the same thing.

  9. Jonathan 27

    This is why I never accept EULAs, my cat Mr Fluffy does for me.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Given that T&C are never to the customers benefit

    Then the answer is not to use anything that comes with unreasonable T&C, in the UK atleast your statatory rights mean that you cannot sign away your legal rights no matter the contract.

    Given that in the US the state makes it plain that it protects the rights of the vendor over the normal citizen then your only option is not to use anything with unreasonable/unclear T&C.

    I am not saying I agree with this situation but whilst it exists your only power is to not sign any contract and hence not pay any dodgy companies. Without income those companies who exploit their customers will go bust, you might also try getting the law changed but since there are so many vested interests involved it is unlikely to happen, certainly not under the current regime.

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