back to article Drugs, vodka, Volvo: The Scandinavian answer to Britain's future new border

Most people leaving Kielder forest park in Northumberland go east towards Tyneside, but you can also head north-west on an uncategorised road through open countryside. After a few miles, just past the abandoned Deadwater rail station, a couple of road signs are all that marks the border between England and Scotland. But if …

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  1. sebt
    Thumb Up

    Very interesting...

    ... and it sounds like a sensible, efficient solution to the problem.

    For that reason, though, it's just not going to fly in Britain. This Scandinavian system relies on self-declaration of goods, with intelligent and targeted spot checks to deter evasion.

    That just doesn't fit with the British tradition of the last few decades, which is to treat _everyone_ as if they're hardworking enough to manage to be a people-smuggler, drugs smuggler, terrorist and illegal immigrant all at the same time.

    This system is also focused on goods, not people. And it's the movement of people which is the great trumpeting main theme of the Brexit bullshit. I can imagine the UK government turning a blind eye to smuggling of goods into the (Scottish part of the) EU - how else is trade going to happen? But an open border, which smelly _people_ can just walk across - no way! Paul Dacre's head would explode with fury.

    Which is actually a major plus point for this kind of border.

    1. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: Very interesting...

      And completely irrelevant, because both are part of the EFTA Free Trade area and so do not in fact have much in the way of customs and excise.

      It's the same as Switzerland.

      ANPR probably works quite well when the only thing you really care about is catching known thieves as they cross borders.

  2. MJI Silver badge

    What a hassle

    Anyway I thought this vote was to leave the EU, not leave customs union, nor single market, nor ECHR.

    But this lot of jokers have decided we are.

    But the British are like the internet, makes things more expensive or more difficult and we will work around it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Facepalm

      "Anyway I thought this vote was to leave the EU, not leave customs union, nor single market"

      Did someone there really believed you could leave the EU and retain the common market? You may have failed to notice that the ECC - "the Common Market" - transformed itself in the EC first in 1993, and then into EU in 2009.

      After all, to be part of a "common market" you need to abide to the "common rules" which allow it to work. The EU regulations Britons abhorred and voted against are there exactly for that reason. Sure, some are stupid and some are very lobby-oriented (it happens even in single states...), but without a common framework you can't have a common market and common customs. Countries in EEA still need to abide to a lot of EU legislation.

      It would have been correct that the Brexit supporters had indicated clearly what was their plan after leaving the EU, and how much feasible it was. You can't really expect other states to give you all the advantages without any of the disadvantages of participating in a single market.

      1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

        Re: "Anyway I thought this vote was to leave the EU, not leave customs union, nor single market"

        The regulations that allow the common market to function are only a small fraction of the rules that govern the EU, and most of those regulations originate at the international level anyway. Neither is the Single Market an invention of the EU, but rather is part of the EEA agreement. The EU is simply a member of it along with all other EEA/EFTA members.

        EFTA/EEA members can act independently in trade with other nations instead of having to abide by the common position of the EU and they also aren't bound by the decisions of the ECJ. There is a great deal of voluntary compliance with the ECJ, but the fact that it's voluntary is entirely the point: the EFTA/EEA is not politically bound to "ever closer union".

        The EU and EEA were parallel developments, with the EEA being a development of the activities of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, a body devoted solely to abolishing trade barriers between european nations without any pretence of political integration. The EU coopted that aim, but the fact that we're now arguing about the return of trade barriers between the UK and the EU shows that it isn't really interested in facilitation of trade, but instead in the protection of internal markets from the outside world.

        The EU was a mistake. It took what was a good idea - economic integration and trade facilitation through common standards - and mixed in trade protectionism and political integration within a common border. It is recreating at the edge of the Union the same protectionist attitude that the EEA was established to abolish.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Neither is the Single Market an invention of the EU"

          European Union predates EFTA - it was born sixty years ago (you may have missed the celbration in Rome, where the original treaty was signed), three years before EFTA, and has its roots in ECSC, created some years before. The EEA agreement will come much later.

          http://www.efta.int/about-efta/history

          You have a very narrow and outdated view of EEA/EFTA - which is no longer just a free trade area for goods only. Check, for example, what is one of the core requirements of EEA/EFTA, now:

          http://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas/persons

          Isn't this the very thing brexiters voted against?

          It's UK that decided to leave the common market and custom union because it didn't like the other freedoms inside the EU space, so what should EU do? Give unrestricted access to UK while UK wants to restrict access - even those which are required by EEA/EFTA?

          Good luck, if you think to join EEA/EFTA, also...

          1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

            Re: "Neither is the Single Market an invention of the EU"

            I didn't say the eea came first, I said that the eu (then eec) coopted the stated goals of the unece, from which the eea/efta later emerged, and added an unnecessary element of political union.

            None of what you say changes the simple facts: the eu and the single market are not synonymous and the eu is a protectionist organisation.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Neither is the Single Market an invention of the EU"

              No, you're creating alternative facts. UNECE (Germany, a founder of ECC, joined it in 1973 only!) has nothing to do with ECSC and ECC, even if they may have had some common obvious goals. C'mon, do you believe something led by communist Yugoslavia from 1960 to 1982, and with Russia among the members, had such plans?

              ECC and then EU was and is a much more ambitious plan, you may not like it, but Europe would have been a far worse place without it.

              EFTA was mostly an answer to ECC, limited to money matters. It's no surprise many EFTA members left it to join ECC and EU later.

              But feel free to rewrite History as needed, it's a fashionable entertainment, these days.

              1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

                Re: "Neither is the Single Market an invention of the EU"

                It's like talking to a bloody brick wall with you.

                The UNECE was established in 1947 with the stated aim of encouraging economic integration between the nations of Europe, which was believed to be a way to prevent future war. Generally speaking, greater economic integration does reduce the likelihood of war between participants.

                The ECSC was established in 1950, with the stated aim of preventing war through political integration, by ensuring that each member had to rely on other members for material goods.

                I stated that the EEA/EFTA emerged from the stated goals and the efforts of the UNECE. This is a fact. All your muddying the water with when particular nations joined the ECE or switched from the EFTA to the EU, and putting words in my mouth doesn't change this fact.

                I certainly agree that the EU is a more ambitious plan. It is ambitious to want to create and enforce resource interdependence between states. It is ambitious to increasingly bypass national legislatures and remove their ability to create their own laws over wider and wider swathes of policy. It is ambitious to create a protectionist border against the outside world while dumping internal surpluses at below market rates on north africa, driving local farmers and fishermen out of business and creating a huge immigration issue.

                Ambitious is not synonymous with better.

                1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

                  Re: "Neither is the Single Market an invention of the EU"

                  "It is ambitious to create a protectionist border against the outside world while dumping internal surpluses at below market rates on north africa, driving local farmers and fishermen out of business and creating a huge immigration issue."

                  Of course! Brexit is in response to the unfair treatment of third world countries! Why didn't I realise that?

                  rUK will now save said third world. Boris at the front of the effort, naturally.

                  1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

                    Re: "Neither is the Single Market an invention of the EU"

                    Why must you insist on reading things that simply aren't there? If you can point to anything I wrote that plainly states "brexit is a response to unfair treatment of third-world countries" I'll give you a thousand pounds. Cash.

                    My argument was against the concept of the EU in general, not one of why the UK chose to leave in particular. Perhaps you should spend less time strawmanning everyone who disagrees with you and more time engaging with the actual arguments that have been made.

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: What a hassle

      @ MJI

      "Anyway I thought this vote was to leave the EU, not leave customs union, nor single market, nor ECHR."

      It is a shame but then the EU are being gits about it. Either we are in the EU 100% or we are out 100%. It is their dictating of the terms and quite rightly we are walking away. The EU thinks the worst it can threaten us with is no deal, yet the worst deal we can get is to be trapped in the EU.

      "But the British are like the internet, makes things more expensive or more difficult and we will work around it."

      That is true and not just of brits. The EU had some fantasy dream that they would steal our financial sector in some glorious achievement. Then they went quiet as offices in the EU got a new status and nothing really moved anywhere. On the plus side it does mean costs will go down where we can trade with the rest of the world and without the cartel tariffs we are currently forced to impose.

      1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        Re: What a hassle

        "The EU had some fantasy dream that they would steal our financial sector in some glorious achievement."

        Brexiters have some fantasy dream that they are going to imprison the financial sector within the rUK borders. Yeah, that's really gonna happen.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: What a hassle

          @ anonymous boring coward

          "Brexiters have some fantasy dream that they are going to imprison the financial sector within the rUK borders"

          Wow thats a new claim, kudo's for thinking that one up. I am guessing you believe that because the EU has been shouting how they will take the financial sector and lock us out while we sit back and laugh at their failure to understand it is not for the gov's to dictate this stuff? The only ones who think it is a ball to pick up and run off with seem to be the EU/remainers.

          1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

            Re: What a hassle

            It's simple logic. Do you think the financial sector is going to stay in the UK twiddling their thumbs with no customers?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: What a hassle

              @ anonymous boring coward

              "It's simple logic. Do you think the financial sector is going to stay in the UK twiddling their thumbs with no customers?"

              I think the scariest part of that statement is that you think the largest financial centre in the world will suddenly have no customers because the EU gets a little uppity. However your belief in such a scenario does explain why you seem to fear leaving the EU. I will point out that such a belief is not logical.

              1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

                Re: What a hassle

                The sector has already started adjusting, and will keep doing so. Like everything else in old Blighty things will shrink down to fit the self inflicted reduced market share. Have you purposefully avoided reading the news?

                And, oh yes, the situation with NY is this: Before London had the advantage of being in the EU. Now London doesn't have that advantage over NY. Get it?

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: What a hassle

                  @ anonymous boring coward

                  "And, oh yes, the situation with NY is this: Before London had the advantage of being in the EU. Now London doesn't have that advantage over NY. Get it?"

                  So your claiming the EU will be accepting NY when?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "The EU had some fantasy dream that they would steal our financial sector"

        Not only EU:

        https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/business/dealbook/brexit-uk-london-banking.html

        Do you really believe a part of it won't be lost because it can't fulfill requirements to operate in EU? They aren't of course running - yet - because they're waiting to see what will happen and how to adapt - because it costs money. But as soon as the outcome of the negotiates will be clear, they won't wait.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: "The EU had some fantasy dream that they would steal our financial sector"

          @ LDS

          "Do you really believe a part of it won't be lost because it can't fulfill requirements to operate in EU?"

          Amusing yet irrelevant. I like the suggestion that London could lose out to its long term rival New York (last I checked not in the EU). This is where the EU has the choice to either be global facing and international, or carry through their threat of cutting off London and be a laughing stock. And while we may lose a little of small numbers of whatever to the EU quite simply their pathetic threat of buggering up London out of spite was defused when offices changed status and woohoo suddenly the financial market still functions in London and the EU.

          "They aren't of course running - yet - because they're waiting to see what will happen and how to adapt - because it costs money"

          They are adapting. And if we leave the EU to run ahead with fun schemes like limiting bonuses and FTT then the EU will have less banking there. This doom is forever coming and never arriving. I assume people are just waiting for the next recession in the business cycle to cry 'LOOK! LOOK! SEE! We left the EU and now DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMEEEEEDDD!!!! AHHHHH'. Of course the Euro will probably fall over at that point or more countries sacrificed to save it as has already happened.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "The EU had some fantasy dream that they would steal our financial sector"

            "LOOK! LOOK! SEE! We left the EU and now DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMEEEEEDDD!!!! AHHHHH'."

            Well, the Brexit vote did wonders for the value of the Pound, didn't it?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: "The EU had some fantasy dream that they would steal our financial sector"

              @AC

              "Well, the Brexit vote did wonders for the value of the Pound, didn't it?"

              Yes it did. It is wonderful how the pound was overvalued and needed to come down before the referendum. Then the referendum was announced and suddenly a falling currency is a bad thing. Other things being inflation, interest rates back to normal and house price control being advertised as bad by the remain campaign while it has been the single goal of the gov and BoE for almost a decade.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "The EU had some fantasy dream that they would steal our financial sector"

            You miss the fact the largest economy in EU is not UK, it's Germany, and France is the same size as UK. Once UK loses the advantages of being in EU, many things in the financial sector can't simply work as before. Look at Switzerland, it also had to accept a treaty with EU (limiting, for example, its bank secret), or risk to be cut out. There's also a reason why the stock exchanges merger was blocked.

            Financial institutions are not stupid, and unlike politicians, they spend their own and investors money (and investors, unlike taxpayers, can easily move elsewhere), so are less keen on doing stupid things just to assert their power, boards don't get re-elected if they lose money.

            Of course London won't lose everything, but a good slice of business will probably go elsewhere. Otherwise, why would have they voted to stay? And wasn't exactly to punish that elite that outside London they voted to exit?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: "The EU had some fantasy dream that they would steal our financial sector"

              @ LDS

              "You miss the fact the largest economy in EU is not UK, it's Germany, and France is the same size as UK."

              Yeah that really does cause problems for Greece doesnt it as the Euro is undervalued for Germany (QE to deal with the pesky recession) so as the Euro falls Germany pushes it back up and Greece continues to suffer. Are you arguing for a further reduction of our currency?

              "Once UK loses the advantages of being in EU, many things in the financial sector can't simply work as before"

              Well said. Ditch the EU regulations and we can rejoin the REST OF THE WORLD. And the financial sector has already circumvented the EU imposed problems.

              "Financial institutions are not stupid, and unlike politicians"

              The EU found that out didnt they.

              "Otherwise, why would have they voted to stay? And wasn't exactly to punish that elite that outside London they voted to exit?"

              Sticking up for the bankers. I remember a time that would raise a lot of down votes and angry comments.

  3. Gene Cash Silver badge

    US/Canada border used to be "soft" too

    Until the Homeland Security guys turned out to be such assholes. Now it's "PAPERZ PLEAZE! JA!" just like everywhere else.

    It used to be "why are you entering <country>?" and as long as the answer wasn't "smuggling drugs" or "planning to assassinate <head of state>" then they let you through. Not any more.

  4. katrinab Silver badge

    The other problem is this

    If you are a farmer in Northern Ireland, and want to sell your food to England, the quickest route is to drive down the M1 to Dublin, take a ferry to North Wales, then drive across to the distribution depots in the West Midlands. From there the supermarkets take it to our local shops. That is the route they usually take. The other route, ferry from Belfast to Scotland, then drive down the M74/M6 takes a lot longer.

    If you want to get from one part of Ireland to another, or from one part of Northern Ireland to another, then sometimes the quickest route take you across the border. You can easily find direct routes where you cross the border four times along the way.

  5. Stuart Grout

    Bigger problem for EU than UK.

    The volume of goods that we would apply a tariff to coming from Ireland or Scotland is likely to be negligible as May is looking for a free trade future.

    The EU loves high import tariffs as a way of protecting it's frequently failing industries.

    Seems to be to the UK's advantage to mostly leave the movement of goods be unrestricted and let the EU try and work out how to maintain their tariff system.

    1. Jess

      Re: Bigger problem for EU than UK.

      I sort of agree. The EU will be concerned about goods traveling across the border, while Britain will be worried about people crossing. (It's the whole point of brexit, apparently).

      Britain provides mainly services, for which physical borders are not really relevant. (But being outside the legal framework that allows us to provide then, will be).

      Our currency is reduced in value, meaning those exports are cheaper, meaning the EU will be even keener to insist on decent border control to ensure tariffs are paid.

      All this fuss, just to save child benefit going abroad to a few polish kids, (and surely it would have been easier just to require the kids benefiting to be within the UK?)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bigger problem for EU than UK.

      May may look at what she likes, but UK isn't going to get "free trade" without giving anything back. Both Merkel and Macron were quite clear about it, and Juncker too. Other states inside EU as well are just looking at how they can gain from agencies and businesses moving away from UK

      And after all, wasn't the Brexit just an attempt to protect from foreigners as well?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bigger problem for EU than UK.

      The EU loves high import tariffs as a way of protecting it's frequently failing industries.

      Seems to be to the UK's advantage to mostly leave the movement of goods be unrestricted and let the EU try and work out how to maintain their tariff system.

      Apart from the Uk trying to sell goods to Europe, of course.

  6. Suricou Raven

    Soft border?

    Everyone wants a soft border. But the single biggest issue driving the leave vote was immigration - legal, illegal, and asylum. If you have a soft border, how is that going to change? Anyone wanting to sneak into the country need only get themselves as far as the RoI as a visitor and can then simply stroll across the border. Ferry to the mainland after optional. The pro-exit forces are going to be very unhappy when they realise just how easy it remains to get in.

    1. Jess

      Re: just how easy it remains to get in.

      I think it will get far easier.

      The EU will have no incentive to prevent people leaving its borders.

      We will be financially pressed, and unlikely to spend enough to do the job properly. We already don't and then put the blame on the EU rules.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Soft border?

      >But the single biggest issue driving the leave vote was immigration - legal, illegal, and asylum.

      If immigration was the biggest issue behind the Brexit vote then the root cause was the failure of the person in charge of immigration to control it for the six years prior to the vote. In fact, two of the four highest years for immigration *ever* were completely under the control of that person, and six months of the joint third were under her control. Cutting back on customs officials and border enforcement obviously didn't help to take an accurate view on the levels of immigration either.

      The price for her consistent failure to meet the Conservative manifesto commitments on immigration was promotion to the top job, where again she failed to do anything about it even after deciding that immigration was the cause of the vote, *except* declare war on Tourism - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/prime-minister-theresa-may-wants-uk-to-lead-world-in-preventing-tourism-in-embarrassing-campaign-a3523721.html

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Single market, low crime

    Those are the things the Norway-Sweden border has that the NI border doesn't. Because both sides are in the single market, to export from Norway to Sweden you only have to provide "rules of origin" documentation, which essentially proves that the goods were mainly made in Norway. British products will also have to provide proof that the goods conform to EU regulations, which is then randomly tested.

    Ulster regrettably still has functioning criminal cross-border groups, which currently eke out a living trafficking diesel. There is no doubt that there will be more opportunities after Brexit, and we can expect a resurgence of these criminal networks, covered - as before - by the flag of unification and drenched in ethnoreligious patriotism.

  8. Allan George Dyer
    Boffin

    ANPR? Easily defeated

    Obligatory James Bond clip:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUG1GexVz2k

  9. RyszrdG

    Lateral thinking required ...

    Of course the answer is to bring Ireland into the UK rather than cede NI. Oh shit - didn't we try this some time ago?

  10. Herby

    Weird picture...

    Is it just me or did someone else see the opening picture and think that the camera box was an overturned truck lorry on the side of the road.

    I must be thinking weird thoughts.

  11. Andus McCoatover

    Erm, am I just a bit soft in the head...

    ...but anyone with a printer could just make a fake number plate to tape over the real one?

    (Sigh). Problems with automation...

  12. DrXym

    Here's a better idea

    Don't leave the customs union. It's stupid and self-defeating. It just causes extra red tape for government & businesses, delays at borders (even with "light touch" systems), increases smuggling, decreases trade & travel across land borders, and provides little to no benefit in return.

  13. martinusher Silver badge

    As usual, ignore the obvious

    The way to fix the Northern Ireland border problem is to admit that the six counties are part of Ireland and just incorporate them into Eire with whatever safeguards are necessary to convince the Untionists that they're really part of the UK, sort of. The fixes would include allowing UK currency to be used in the north, similar VAT rates in both areas and the non-application of Church driven laws in the north. This stuff should be a whole lot easier to work out than trying to police the border. (...and anyway, you've effectively got a hard border between N.Ireland and the rest of the UK since the Troubles)

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What are they going to do when we have flying cars?

  15. ITnoob

    So the Scandinavian system works efficiently and is cost effective. This 100% guarantees that UK gov will totally ignore it and bodge together a proprietary heap of junk for 4 times the price. Kerching!

  16. Eduard Coli

    United Ireland

    It is really too bad that Brexit is going to split Ireland even more.

    Why can't Blighty give up NI?

  17. Pax681

    "But if Scots vote for independence in a second referendum demanded by Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon, then this remote road and around 20 others crossing the border would either have to be closed or turned into customs control points."

    Absolute BULLSHIT and they know it. for an example of how a very similar border works in reality with plenty or crossing points with no-one there ate all.. Look for Northern/Southern Ireland border.

    This is just so much bullshit it genuinely beggars belief!

    1. tokyo-octopus

      Absolute BULLSHIT and they know it. for an example of how a very similar border works in reality with plenty or crossing points with no-one there ate all.. Look for Northern/Southern Ireland border.

      In case you've been in a coma for the last year and aren't aware of recent events, the status of the Northern/Republic of Ireland border is likely to change quite radically.

  18. bexley

    2500 liters of booze eh?

    that´s 11 million well spent.

    More surveillance in the UK / Eng;and is a most unwelcome prospect, Scotland has no land bordered with the EU so I dont see why this is such a big issue. If scotland leave the UK and join the EU, just leave the border as it is and perhaps do some spot checks on the roads.

    Same in NI. When fighting a war with the IRA, the border was never a big problem and remained open throughout and the EU (with no land border) hardly represents a bigger threat than the IRA did.

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