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Microsoft quietly emits patch to undo its earlier patch that broke Windows 10 networking

Joke

Very strange

I thought the update breaking DHCP was brilliant. It really improved the safety of the machines as they cannot download viruses and trojans without a working internet connection.

Why they would let these machines loose on the world wide web is beyond me.

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Silver badge

That's what you want.

A company insisting on applying automatic updates to all computers with its software installed, without any veto, no hint of release note of what changes or when, and no statement on what is fixed, ever, when a major problem does happen, or whether they even found the cause officially at all.

And then you wonder why people DO NOT WANT that on the machines they run their personal and work lives on.

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New legends?

When I clicked the Start button, "Restart" and "Shutdown" had been replaced by "Update and Restart" and "Update and Shutdown". Is that new, or have I just missed it in the past?

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Re: New legends?

Pretty sure that goes back to Windows 7 at least.

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Re: New legends?

When I clicked the Start button, "Restart" and "Shutdown" had been replaced by "Update and Restart" and "Update and Shutdown". Is that new, or have I just missed it in the past?

It just means that there are updates to be installed. When they have been installed, the legends will return to what they were before. Until next time...

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Silver badge

Re: New legends?

Windows 7 only had "update and..." on one of them (either restart or shut down), not both, and it only did that if you had it set to "automatically download and install" or "automatically download, but let me decide when to install.) If you had it set to "Notify but don't download" or "Never check", you could shut down and restart without interference.

It's nice to have the choice.

No, I misspoke (er, wrote). It's necessary to have the choice.

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Silver badge

Re: New legends?

Install Classic Shell, turn that kind of thing off while getting a much more customisable start menu at the same time, for free.

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Silver badge

Re: New legends?

"Install Classic Shell, turn that kind of thing off while getting a much more customisable start menu at the same time, for free."

Agree except that you should send the nice man some money, he deserves it.

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Re: New legends?

From Windows 7,

When Widows Update Setting has been picked to "Download updates but let me choose whether to install them". It will change the "Shutdown" option to "Update and Shutdown" in the Start Menu after windows downloaded updates.

It's from the past.

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Silver badge
Windows

Re: New legends?

It just means that there are updates to be installed.

When they have been installed, the legends will return to what they were before machine may not ever boot again, but if it does you will find either that some bit of hardware no longer works, or some software (including purchased software) may have been deleted, or your account changed to a MS cloud account - which you don't have a password or recovery system for (all your data on by-default full encrypted disk, which has been changed, so no recovery options...), a gamble of "what do you want broken today?"

FTFY.

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You want control of updates on your Win10 PC? Easy!

Just disable the windows update service and reboot.

Then when you feel like it's safe to do an update run, you know what to do.

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Silver badge

Re: You want control of updates on your Win10 PC? Easy!

Just disable the windows update service and reboot.

Then when you feel like it's safe to do an update run, you know what to do.

That's really not the point ... or did you forget the "Joke" icon?

People want control not just over whether they apply any updates, but over which updates they apply and which they eschew. They also, obviously, need a simple no-nonsense statement of what each update does.

I fully understand that Microsoft's job is made easier if they can simply assume that every user has all the available updates installed, so the update process starts from a known and well-understood baseline on each occasion ... but users do need to be able to refuse or remove updates that break their systems. Only when Microsoft can demonstrate that all their patches have been thoroughly tested before release, and found not to cause problems, should they be allowed to even consider removing user control over the update process.

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Silver badge

Re: You want control of updates on your Win10 PC? Easy!

Just disable the windows update service and reboot.

Then when you feel like it's safe to do an update run, you know what to do.

Whilst this may seem sensible advice, it is in fact one of the best ways to cause future problems.

Firstly, before you turn off the update service, you need to be sure that all downloaded updates have been installed. Having particuallr installed updates hanging around can cause problems when you decide to update other software and will cause problems with any future Windows updates.

Secondly, with the update service turned off, unless you are disciplined, it is very easy for a month or two go by and before you know it your system hasn't been updated for over a year. Just had a Windows 8.1 system that hadn't been updated since June 2015 (updates were turned off due to the release of GWX), it took the best part of a week to get this system fully updated and restored to full working order. Installing all updates was the simplest way of getting the required updates and their precursors installed, However, as we know during this time MS have released updates to the update service and a few hundred updates, which give Windows Update a problem and cause a system to seemingly hang for a few days whilst it sorts itself out...

Personally, I'm happy for most important updates to be auto installed, with only those that touch the network adaptor and/or stack getting put to one side and being applied with great care - lesson learnt with XP and still applies to 7, 8.1 and especially with 10 which is known to have an update service that takes exception to AV software...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: You want control of updates on your Win10 PC? Easy!

"Whilst this may seem sensible advice, it is in fact one of the best ways to cause future problems."

currentProblems: Windows 10 update loop, broken start menu, broken Web cam, broke Internet

futureProblems: A week of updating

err...

if(currentProblems < futureProblems){

Windows.Update();}

else {

Windows.NoUpdate();

Windows.Offline();

Install.Linux();}

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Silver badge
WTF?

Re: You want control of updates on your Win10 PC? Easy!

ust had a Windows 8.1 system that hadn't been updated since June 2015 (updates were turned off due to the release of GWX), it took the best part of a week to get this system fully updated and restored to full working order.

I could take a Linux system of similar vintage, and on a decent-enough connection have it fully updated inside an hour, maybe hour and a half for a slower system. Have done 2yo LTS releases in 40 minutes on single-core laptops. And one reboot at the end of it to make sure the process is completed, with normal shutdown/startup speeds as the entire update process is done in one hit, the restart only to pick up any kernel changes.

Why people think that anything more than 2 hours is acceptable, or a long shutdown/start up is acceptable, is still beyond me.

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Windows

Re: You want control of updates on your Win10 PC? Easy!

Then you have broken the EULA... the numbered paragraph below is from the W10 EULA.

6. Updates. The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.

I suppose M$ could revoke the license, make the O/S non-genuine, and make life (more) miserable than it is... naaaaahhh they wouldn't do that... would they?

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Silver badge

Re: You want control of updates on your Win10 PC? Easy!

Well, sadly, in this day and age, the MS EULA can't even be used to wipe one's arse with.

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This post has been deleted by its author

Re: TV Advert - Windows 10 - Tablets - You Need 'Em

Really? You don't get that with a Mac?

Have you missed the articles about patches breaking ethernet and iPhones/iPads getting knocked off WiFi?

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This post has been deleted by its author

precise symptoms of failure ?

I think I had this problem 5 days ago : my wifi gave only a "limited connexion" : was seeing the wifi networks but unable to connect.

Runing the "ipconfig " command showed an ipv4 address 169.254.xxx.

I tried a lot of solutions found on internet :

Restarting the pc was of no help.

I think that deactivating the wifi connexion, reactivating it and powering off the machine fixed the problem at next power on (ip address 192.168....). Problem did not reappear.

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Black Helicopters

Re: precise symptoms of failure ?

> Runing the "ipconfig " command showed an ipv4 address 169.254.xxx.

It's good that you are thinking about security, but you don't really need to anonymise a 169.254.0.0/16 address. :-)

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Silver badge

Re: precise symptoms of failure ?

Yeah, sometimes I've had to disable the network driver, reboot and then re-enable it for windows to untwist it's knickers.

Bring back tcp/ip I say (oh and wfwg 3.11 whilst you are at it!)

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Re: precise symptoms of failure ?

netsh winsock reset catalog and netsh int ipv4 reset reset.log worked for me with a machine that was the same as yours, showed unidentified network on the wireless connection and had the 169 address.

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Joke

That's a nice internet you've got there

Of late there has been a great deal of discussion about DDOS attacks and so forth and the possibility that a foreign power might bring the internet down, thus causing huge economic damage. The recent disconnection of a few computers is a broad hint to ensure that no one will forget exactly who the boss is.

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Dear volunteer testers...

The GWX debacle should have been enough to demonstrate beyond reasonable that doubt that setting automatic updates on was not in your interests. How many more times does microsoft need to c o ck things up before everyone gets the message?

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Re: Dear volunteer testers...

"How many more times does microsoft need to c o ck things up before everyone gets the message?"

A minor point - cock in cock up is not rude. It's a printing term from cold metal when, if a letter wasn't inserted properly in the forme so it stuck up slightly at an angle, there was an area of bad print around it; the letter was cocked (as in trigger mechanism) up, and so a cock up.

The Reg doesn't care in any case.

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Silver badge

Re: Dear volunteer testers...

<pedant alert>

Cock up is even older than that...it came from archery where the cock feather is at right angles to the bowstring when the arrow is correctly nocked and the arrow can fly true when loosed. If fitted the other way round the arrow flies off at a very strange angle as you have made a 'cock-up'

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Silver badge

Re: Dear volunteer testers...<pedant alert>

It wouldn't be the first time that an expression arose independently in different trades. I doubt many printers faced with a forme with a sticking up letter thought "ooh that's just like an arrow the wrong way round. I wonder what they call that?" He'd just think, "O bugger, the apprentice has cocked it up, better get it fixed and hope the boss doesn't notice the scrap paper."

My point wasn't about priority of invention, just that the term isn't in any sense rude or coarse.

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Never can quite get it right, can they?

So, all the open source touchy-feely community bollocks they're spouting at the moment isn't worth a bean if there's no transparency. I can get over the forced patches because that's the only way most of humanity is ever going to stay up to date... but please let those of us that have to support others get the information we need. Luckily, I worked out the ipconfig /renew fix almost straight away, but i imagine there are many people phoning their ISP's, getting nowhere - or worse, taking their machines to shops to be charged good money for no reason.

If I could wave a wand, I might even consider putting the old Microsoft back in place.. it was at least able to tell us what it was patching, even if it was a year or more overdue.

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Devil

If you can't manage........

I beg to differ. I've worked in quite a few places that use Windows and Macs. It just takes a bit of work and learning to integrate the two. If you can't manage that then you really, really don't belong in IT.

A school I personally know of ran Mac Servers, iMac, MacBook, iPads and iPods. The Principal wanted to have the iPods networked in so they could use Graphic Calculator software and upgrade it instead of paying a couple of hundred dollars for a dedicated hardware device. Senior Apple people spent $100,000 in time trying to get the iPods online before throwing in the towel. Mac hardware not wanting to work with other Mac hardware…..PRICELESS. Based on your own words I guess the Apple engineers just really, really don’t belong in IT.

It isn’t the only time that Apple gear didn’t want to play nice and the Apple engineers again threw the hands in the air in defeat.

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Can I have a patch for

when installing updates, our computers take half an hour to restart!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Can I have a patch for

If an update re-boot takes more than a minute or two, then assuming you're not leaving updates for months at a time, I'd suggest something seems to be wrong with your PCs.

Maybe a poor AV program interfering with the updating? 3rd party full disk encryption not working right?

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There seems to be an inverse relationship between the rate microsoft try to dumb down windows 10, and the rise in IT skills needed to keep the bloody thing working....

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Windows

I got caught by this

Spent a lot of time trying to fix the LAN connection on my son's PC. Strangely the connection was fine using a USB WLAN dongle, so I was testing different cables, switch ports, restarting the DHCP server and tailing logs, checking for driver and firmware updates etc. until I happened to run the correct magic netsh command. Glad to know the root cause.

For the whingers, crap happens and there's even a name for it.

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Pint

Sucking Eggs, Zombie Users or PC's (Take Your Choice).

For all those niggling loss of connectivity issues my users used to experience across North America, I used to remote in, turn off the NIC power management in device manager & drop a batch file on the desktop that performed:

ipconfig /release

ipconfig /flushdns

netsh winsock reset

restart the machine

The last part was required as the result of the first command severing my RDP connection or Lync\Skype For Business session.

A quick fix & a step closer to beer o'clock.

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Silver badge

Re: Sucking Eggs, Zombie Users or PC's (Take Your Choice).

This again? I haven't had to run those commands since XP.

Good job MS. Good job. /s

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Static IP address?

Is it just me, or is that not the obvious workaround?

Skip DHCP altogether and set up a static IP address for the machine - you can do that in Windows, can't you?

The only piece of information you need to do that is the network address block - in most home routers that's likely to be 192.168.1.0/24 - and then choose any one of the mid-range numbers for the last octet to avoid conflict with the router and other dynamically-assigned addresses that might be in use.

I have quite a few devices on my home network and for me it's helpful to know the IP addresses of some of them (I have a raspi to do my internal DNS). The mobile phones are about the only thing that use DHCP in here...

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That sword wields just a little bit too much power, for my liking.

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Commemorative Patch

Hey, it's the 20 Year Commemorative Patch - 1996 my Win 95 PC told me: "Can't find CD-Rom Drive. Please insert Disk into CD-Rom Drive to install driver."

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Pejorative or what?

What is the difference between Microsoft distributing (or some other neutral word to describe what they did) and "sneaking out" a patch? One is journalism and the other is propaganda.

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Re: Pejorative or what?

"What is the difference between Microsoft distributing (or some other neutral word to describe what they did) and "sneaking out" a patch? One is journalism and the other is propaganda."

Nope. One is the use of terminology appropriate to a particular company's ethics, established practices, and repute.

The other is the use of terminology appropriate to a particular company's ethics, established practices, and repute.

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LDS
Silver badge

How could the CDP service break DHCP?

So eager to call home it tried so soon it can't wait to get an IP address? Isn't that the service which register itself using a partially random string trying to avoid automatic neutering?

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Flame

If Microsoft was to be treated as a hostile country, not a hostile company . . .

Amazing, the way Microsoft is allowed to get away with whatever its ruling elite wish. With a financial turnover the size of a small nation's economy, there's no reason why Microsoft could not be viewed as a hostile country -- and dealt with as such. Its track record over recent years has been to:

1) Invade millions of computers worldwide;

2) Install software the content of which it refuses to divulge;

3) Place telemetry on those computers so as to monitor user behaviour;

4) Attempt by systematic fraud to replace a computer owner's OS of choice with one of its choosing (and in many thousands of instances, achieve exactly that objective);

5) Repeatedly disrupt the operation of a user's computer with secret unsought modifications;

6) Consistently lie about its practices.

This latest example is one of the most telling, because no legitimate reason exists for Microsoft to be messing around with a computer user's internet connectivity. Illegitimate reasons, however, abound. . .

Invasive. Secretive. Disruptive. And dedicated to covert surveillance . . . If Microsoft were to be treated as a hostile country rather than the hostile company it now so clearly is, there'd be plenty of talk on both sides of the Atlantic about how best to deal with it: disrupting its international trade; freezing its assets; putting its leadership on travel black-lists, etc etc.

Looking at today's mainstream meeja headlines though, all I see is yet more tut-tutting about that awful Mr Putin, that nasty Russia, and how it keeps hacking politicians' emails. I have yet to see any reportage of that malignant nation state called Microsoft, one which after hacking computers -- never mind emails -- for so long is now actually breaking 'em.

Plenty on here have said, fuck Microsoft. Seems to me, prosecuting Microsoft would be considerably more satisfying.

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FAIL

A Guess

In the text it says

Prerequisites

To apply this update, you must have Servicing stack update for Windows 10 Version 1607: October 27, 2016 (KB3199986) installed.

Guessing KB3199986 is the bad boy.

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Magic IP

Wonder how all those PC's and Laptops will download the patch without their network connection? lol

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grumble grumble fsck

I'm forced by ineptitude on the part of my kids teachers to run Windows 10 on his laptop because they were too dim to understand how to run chrome on fedora. Trying to update his copy of windows 10 this morning, 30 minutes spent checking updates, 45 minutes after that the download is 46% finished. In another hour it will request a reboot, no doubt, and then another 30 minutes installing the updates. I upgraded fedora 24 to 25 in 10 minutes on my desktop (okay, the SSD helped that), but really, 2 hours+ just for a system update. And why do the fonts look like shit out of the box on windows? Gott it's ugly as fsck this UI.

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Linux

Re: grumble grumble fsck

but really, 2 hours+ just for a system update.

And our mystery shilldownvoter, no doubt, would not dare to try and justify why 2hr+ updates (try a fresh 7 install - more than 2 days to update and MS Shills think that's OK!)

And why do the fonts look like shit out of the box on windows? Gott it's ugly as fsck this UI.

Now now.. Don't you know it's the epitome of professionalism and any think else is "amateurish by comparison"?

Yeah, I thought Win10 looked crap as well. It is an improvement.. on 8.. But even compared to 98 it's pretty rubbish.

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Silver badge

What is it with all "oh, Linux is sooo difficult" voices here?

You can't possibly have tried a version the last 5-10 years.

Just effing try it!!!

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In my experience with one machine, the wireless and ethernet adapters couldn't get an IP address from the router. I used the netsh script to fix the problem. How does a Microsoft update fix the problem if you can't connect to the update servers? A user with a single machine seems to have a serious problem here.

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