back to article Bloke flogs $40 B&W printer on Craigslist, gets $12,000 legal bill

A Massachusetts accountant has vowed never to sell anything on Craigslist again, after getting embroiled in a nearly seven-year legal fight over the quality of a printer he sold online. In 2009, Doug Costello sold a monochrome printer to Gersh Zavodnik in Indiana for $40, plus about $25 in shipping charges. Shortly afterwards …

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              1. Otto is a bear.

                Re: Countersuit

                I should think that covers most politicians in the western world, my experience of local politics in the UK was that most were Solicitors, Accountants or Property Developers, anyone who had a proper job, like me, couldn't spare the time. The closest you would get was the odd spattering of teachers, who could afford the odd early day to attend 4.30pm meetings.

                And before anyone starts on teachers, most of the ones I've known over the past 20 years work a minimum of 50 hours a week, and often a lot more. Mrs. Bear is running at around 70 at the moment.

            1. Nigel 11

              Re: Countersuit

              Crowdfund the countersuit?

              This jerk might find himself comprehensively out-lawyered, if a million folks contributed $5 in order to establish once and for all that gaming the system will ultimately blow up in your face.

        1. Otto is a bear.

          Re: Countersuit

          Ah common ground, so's the UK legal system.

  1. Pirate Dave Silver badge
    Pirate

    "Costello claims he didn't get the requests, but under Indiana law, as he didn't respond to the request within 30 days or attend a hearing on the matter, then the legal rule is that he admitted the liabilities and damages by default."

    So, anybody in Indiana can randomly sue ANYBODY ANYWHERE ELSE and if that person doesn't respond to that court within 30 days then the state of Indiana considers that an admission of guilt/liability? That's pretty fucked up. I mean, I could maybe see it if the other person were a resident of Indiana, but not somebody who lives in another state altogether.

    1. Dadmin

      Pirate Dave, I hear-by request that you and your cohorts do, discreetly and with malice of forethought, hack the living shit out of Indiana and leave a very odd-shaped digital crater where they used to be. There is nothing in that state worth saving. Just nuke the shit out of it already! I'm pretty sure Indiana Jones is residing in California at present, so he's safe until they make Indiana Jones 5. Fire away!

      1. Anonymous Coward
      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        wait a sec

        >There is nothing in that state worth saving

        You are wrong. #1 - Terre Haute has the federal death row necessary for the Boston Bomber. #2 - Where else are Chicago gansters going to bury bodies (such as the famous corn field scene in Casino). Was going to say Indy 500 but now its a shell of itself nah. The only other thing I got is the spiritual home (real home in that other bastion of civilization Kansas) of basketball rings. Sensing the damning with faint praise? Seriously though Indiana can go eat a bag of d*cks.

        1. Blitterbug
          Thumb Up

          Re: There is nothing in that state worth saving

          But But... Kurt Vonnegut? (were he still with us, I mean). And he set most of his distopian whimsies there iirc. Or was he being, er, ironic? I'm guessing the latter?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: wait a sec

          Go Hoosiers!

      3. Anonymous Coward
      4. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        There is nothing in that state worth saving.

        Do fuck right off, will you?

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Nick Kew

      Pirate Dave, that's usual. Something a bit like that happened to spamhaus a few years back, when some spammer sued in a 'merkin court - to take one example. For the worst abuse of all - albeit not quite the same - see the story of the pirates who used bogus patents to choke Blackberry. Courts look after their own, and 'merkin courts often have global reach.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Spamhaus purportedly didn't answer even if it was aware because being a UK based entity it didn't recognize US jurisdiction.

        I wonder if in US there is no way to send such kind of request with a legally valid medium including a non deniable return receipt. In other jurisdiction is mandatory to use such media for that purpose, and some acts may even be delivered by hand by a recognized state official.

        Do Indiana still uses the Pony Express?

    4. L05ER

      maybe...

      given how he to tries to extort people, i wouldn't doubt he sought out such a jurisdiction.

      i would if that was how i was trying to make a living... smarter not harder and all that.

    5. kain preacher

      That's the law in most US states.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        sewer service and default judgements

        One of the first cases you get to read in law school is Penoyer v Neff, which introduces the concept of personal jurisdiction and the limits of constructive notice. Decided by the US Supreme Court in the 1870's, Penoyer was likely forgotten by legislators throughout the country over the next century who gleefully facilitated such travesties of justice as service by mail and notice by publication. Default judgments aren't considered a threat to justice because the law makes it easy to vacate them later -- except when it doesn't (and by "easy", I don't mean "cheap" unless you happen to be a lawyer yourself).

        Starting around 30 years ago the courts, supported by their legislatures, began cracking down on frivolous suits. Fines and penalties were levied not only against litigants, but their lawyers as well. This happened after the common law cause of abuse of process failed to gain traction in a system that was awash in cases.

        However pro se plaintiffs like the guy here always seem to get a pass. They run roughshod over the system because, well, *rights*. Defending a client against a pro se plaintiff can be a nightmare for many lawyers. Convincing a judge to impose sanctions a fantasy.

        But what's the difference really between an active duty soldier and some knuckle dragging good ol' boy letting loose with a shotgun in a shopping mall? The mouth breather might not have 1000's of hours of training and experience of the soldier, or be getting paid a decent salary and benefits to go into combat, but he's just as able to cause as much damage to lives and property.

        The pro se plaintiff in this case is a menace. He should be severely sanctioned by the courts (the going rate used to be up to $10k if memory serves), and be ordered to pay his victims attorneys fees and costs. Some pests can only be eradicated by squashing them, after all.

        Oh yeah, and the trial judge who rendered that $30k judgement? He's the best argument I've ever seen for making judges stand for re-election every few years.

        1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: sewer service and default judgements

          Oh yeah, and the trial judge who rendered that $30k judgement? He's the best argument I've ever seen for making judges stand for re-election every few years.

          Too harsh. Evans believed he was constrained by Rule 36. The Court of Appeals found this was a misinterpretation. Evans wasn't being malicious; he was simply a county judge who got the law wrong. CoA corrected in short order.

          Ten minutes on Lexis/Nexis would find a dozen far more disturbing cases of judicial error, overreach, and misconduct in the past month. Though it'd be more fun finding them by reading legal blogs, to be honest.

          Judges are people. Some of them are good; some of them are terrible; most are somewhere in between.

          The same can be said of voters. I've lived in states where judges are appointed, and others where they're elected. Electing them does not produce a discernible improvement. In fact, it's very, very rare, in my experience, for a judge to lose an election even after a widely-published controversy.

    6. Sooty

      "Costello claims he didn't get the requests, but under Indiana law, as he didn't respond to the request within 30 days or attend a hearing on the matter, then the legal rule is that he admitted the liabilities and damages by default."

      Shouldn't it just be a simple matter of asking for the signed proof of delivery. I mean, if you're sending legal requests that could be disputed in court, only a complete moron wouldn't send them in a fashion that had signed for proof of delivery.

      or is there a further law that says, with no proof of even posting these things, we can assume you've received them a certain number of days after we claim they were sent.

    7. Trigonoceps occipitalis

      " ... and if that person doesn't respond to that court within 30 days then the state of Indiana considers that an admission of guilt/liability?"

      Pretty much the same in the UK.

  2. martinusher Silver badge

    Keep it local and have a return policy

    Its clear that the purchaser had no interest in the printer except as a trigger for small claims action. If you sell locally then you can defend against that sort of thing. (You'd hope that the small claims court would also tell the litigant to take a hike but they get a bit stacked out with cases so a joke claim like this might fall though the cracks.)

  3. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

    "Vexatious Litigant"

    This is what Vexatious Litigant laws are for. And this nice fellow is the absolute definition...

    1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

      Re: "Vexatious Litigant"

      According to Wikipedia, few American states have Vexatious Litigant laws.

    2. Mark 85

      Re: "Vexatious Litigant"

      Indeed vexatious. I'm surprised he's not working for a patent troll or perhaps the motion picture industry in their pursuit of huge amounts of cash for "presumed piracy".

      Methinks someone needs to be institutionalized or merely shot and buried out back for being a twatdangle of the highest order.

  4. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "claiming he had conspired with the presiding judge"

    And he's not inside for contempt of court?

    1. DaLo

      Interestingly as Costello lost this due to "not responding" you would assume that the judge who he "conspired" with"would also be held to account for his action in the conspiracy.

      If you are going to make a presumption of guilt against a defendant in a conspiracy then that conspiracy must be acknowledged as having happened and the Judge, therefore, is also presumed guilty?

      If there is no evidence the conspiracy happened then the defendant cannot be guilt of taking part of it?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Vexatious little ...

    That's not justice, that's a farce.

    If dingbats can win such cases, then the law is bust.

    1. Nick Kew

      Re: Vexatious little ...

      Welcome to the Real World.

      Though I find your size-ism disturbing.

  7. graeme leggett Silver badge

    diplomatic language

    Court says 'serial litigant', I say 'bit of a knob'

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: diplomatic language

      I say a criminal and abuser of the legal system which is ostensibly there to protect people.

  8. Don Fredricks

    Follow the directions

    "Deal locally, face-to-face — follow this one rule and avoid 99% of scam attempts." (from www.craigslist.org/about/scams)

    1. Tom 7

      Re: Follow the directions

      Have you checked the date of that suggestion - you may find it is later than this court action.

  9. Eddy Ito

    Isn't the easy answer to simply have a few thousand of your friends sue him in various other states and countries? Heck, maybe you could get him sentenced to death in Iran or even better a nice flogging somewhere.

  10. batfastad

    Crowd fund

    I'd chuck this Costello chap a fiver to counter-sue that :Pile of Poo:

  11. Anonymous C0ward
    Facepalm

    'Murica.

    (letters)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 'Murica.

      Yes, dammit.

  12. Robert Moore

    I am not by nature a violent man. But if someone had cost me $12000 over BS like this, I would be going to visit them.

    Then I would trip and fall on their front stairs. In front of at least a dozen excellent witnesses.

    My lawsuit would be for millions, many, many millions.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Then I would trip and fall on their front stairs. In front of at least a dozen excellent witnesses."

      Oh God. I saw everything! He almost died!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Unfortunately the jerk in question likely doesn't have any assets from which to extract damages. His lawyers are probably all working on contingency. On the one hand, working on contingency allows poor people to sue for legitimate damages they'd otherwise be unable to seek justice for. On the other, it allows bull-$%#% like this.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          So sue the lawyers.

        2. Donn Bly

          The "Jerk" (I would have used stronger language) doesn't have any lawyers, he represents himself.

          Being from and in Indiana, I took a special interest in this case.

          First, this "Jerk" isn't even from Indiana - He is Ukrainian here on "political asylum". Having gamed that system, he now tries to game all others.

          Indiana, like most courts, has a policy in civil courts of "default summary judgement". Basically, if you get sued, and don't bother to even respond to the suit or show up when the hearing is held, then you are going to lose the case. To respond all you have to do is send the court a letter saying that you deny the claims.

          It isn't that he "admitted" anything - that is just bad reporting, something that has been repeated elsewhere in many articles about this case. It is more factually described as a default "Nolo Contendere" / "No Contest" plea.

          As such, the judge who granted summary judgement wasn't necessarily wrong,but the judge who didn't immediately overturn it on appeal was. After all, The "Jerk" couldn't even provide evidence of notice, which is a REQUIREMENT. It should have been tossed. Judges are human. They screw up. This one screwed up big time. At least the appeals court, after having actually LOOKED at the evidence, tossed it.

          And yes, the seller COULD go after the Jerk and get damages, but that would have to be a separate suit - and he has already stated that he wants nothing to do with any more lawsuits.

          Personally, I think we should find out what the Jerk was running from in the Ukraine. If it was legitimate political asylum I don't think that he would be advertising his location in the international press. Perhaps it is time to send him back.

          1. jamesb2147
            Pint

            Thank you for a thoughtful contribution

            ...and not just spewing forth your emotional reaction to a sensational story.

            Anyway, I'm fairly confident he'll get his one day.

            I'm surprised that the local court didn't immediately toss this, just as you are. In my locality (not in Indiana, to be fair), the local court websites are extraordinarily clear that you need to have made some attempt to settle the dispute before court and have sent court documentation through registered mail to their last known address. That's just for small claims court! Evidence of delivery of that documentation is the first thing a judge asks for when beginning proceedings.

          2. Alan W. Rateliff, II

            Indeed. Make it known in Ukraine where he is, and here come Boris and Natasha to disappear his parasitic ass.

            Again, assuming his asylum is legitimate.

            Discussion with a number of people about this turns up concerns about the way summary judgement works in cases like this. On the one hand it is meant to help those who would otherwise be powerless, but on the other hand it is easy to abuse. Like many things, there is an assumption of good faith that the system will not be used in manners not intended.

          3. Chris Fox

            Admitted admissions

            "It isn't that he "admitted" anything - that is just bad reporting, something that has been repeated elsewhere in many articles about this case. It is more factually described as a default "Nolo Contendere" / "No Contest" plea."

            It might be a little misleading to refer to this as bad reporting, given that the terms "admitted" and "admission" are used by the Indiana court itself in such cases. For example, in the court of appeals' judgement that threw out the case in question, "admitted" appears five times and "admission" fourteen times with regard to the interpretation of Costello's failure to respond, as in:

            "When Costello learned that his failure to respond rendered the matters admitted under Rule 36(A), he hired an attorney and moved to withdraw the admissions under subsection (B) of the rule."

            For once it is not simply sloppy reporting: the language of the court really is as bizarre as it seems.

          4. Nigel 11

            Perhaps it is time to send him back.

            And you lucky folks in the USA would be able to do that. Whereas here in the UK we can't send even murderers back, not even to the nice safe EU country that they were born in.

            What about the victims' human rights, I ask?

          5. Pedigree-Pete
            Mushroom

            Ukranian

            ...perhaps its time to tip off some of his former friends. They have a way of getting justice.

        3. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. kain preacher

      Your honor I saw Robert walk up those hazard stairs. The owner of the property should of been well aware of those dangerous stairs.

      Want to bet he is a renter. So no suing him for the stairs. But if he has a car claim he hit you.

    3. BongoJoe

      Then I would trip and fall on their front stairs. In front of at least a dozen excellent witnesses.

      I was there.

      I saw you fall down those stairs dozens of times. At least.

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