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back to article 'Windows 10 nagware: You can't click X. Make a date OR ELSE'

According to a complaint from a reader, Microsoft’s Windows 10 nagware campaign has entered a new phase, with options to evade or escape an upgrade vanishing. Recently, Microsoft’s policy had been to throw up a dialogue box asking you whether you wanted to install Windows 10. If you clicked the red “X” to close the box – the …

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      1. Roland6 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Peak Microsoft

        If I recall it explains quite clearly during the upgrade that you can do this and is quite simple to do.

        It may have escaped your attention that for many users the GWX update occurs automatically and without user intervention and hence the only times they may see a relevant dialog box will be when the MS GWX malware informs them that it will be performing the upgrade; which most likely will not be at a convenient time for the end user who is trying to do something else and so will not be interested in taking note of the techie information.

        If MS really wanted normal users (who weren't happy with Win10) to rollback, they would have presented a dialog box with equal prominence as the GWX dialog box, at least once a day for the 30 days following the upgrade, during which they give the user the option to roll back...

        Additionally, said rollback would work 99.999999% of the time (yes the failure rate should not exceed 1 in 100M) and it would automatically opt the system out of reinstalling the GWX malware...

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        1. Updraft102
          Reply Icon

          Re: Peak Microsoft

          A lot of things would be different if MS was concerned about what the customer wants or needs.

          First of all, GWX or Windows Update should not imply that an in-place upgrade is inherently safe and easy. Anyone who's been around Windows for any length of time knows that a clean install is a better bet than an upgrade, and the more cruft that has accumulated in Windows since installation, the worse it is likely to go.

          As such, the GWX adware should clearly state that a small but significant number of upgrade attempts will fail and render the PC unbootable in either the old Windows version or in 10, so it is imperative that all users have a full backup before proceeding. They should have to check a box marked "I understand, and I have a backup" or "I understand the risk" before the Proceed button becomes available.

          That would be the truth, and it would be doing a service to let the customers know this is not an ordinary Windows update, that there is risk, and that it is better to be safe than sorry. Undoubtedly, some people who were about to allow the upgrade would change their mind after seeing this, concluding that it was not worth the risk or effort.

          Well, MS can't take the risk. No, I don't mean the risk that people's PCs will be rendered unbootable; they are more than willing to risk that. The risk they will not tolerate is the risk that people would decide not to perform the upgrade if they knew that it could brick their PC.

          In Microsoft's view, quite evidently, it's "Ten or bust." There's no risk that is too great to be taken with their customer's PC or data if it means they might get one more Win 10 install to add to the tally. If a PC isn't going to be upgraded to 10, it's better to MS that it be rendered inoperable than for it to go on using 7 or 8. If the PC no longer works, maybe its owner will go buy a new one, which also accomplishes the goal of having one more Win 10 PC out there, and this time they'll get paid for it.

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      2. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Peak Microsoft

        The point is shouldn't have happened to start with.

        It's your computer. Opt-in, not opt-out.

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    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
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      Re: Peak Microsoft

      "Now they're suffering because of, quite frankly, a horrible scam. Which is what it is, you click X to close a window not to install anything."

      Imagine how the virus and trojan purveyors are feeling now. User are being trained to be suspicious of clicking the X to close a window so will learn to explicitly click a button inside the window which has the word "No" or "Exit" or something written on it but which may do something else.

      I've spent years training family and friends to always click the X on any unexpected pop-ups to make sure it goes away because pop-ups from a fraudster might not actually mean "no" when you click "no". Now MS have undermined and subverted this safe procedure. Bastards!!!

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Peak Microsoft

        "I've spent years training family and friends to always click the X on any unexpected pop-ups"

        I have been trying to train people to go into Task Manager and close whatever is causing the popup. Predictably this didn't happen when it was a Microsoft popup...fortunately no harm done, machine was compatible, but I wonder how the users of Samsung and some Acer and Lenovo machines are feeling?

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    3. N2
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      Re: Peak Microsoft

      Good post,

      I think I would actually prefer Windows Vista to 10, with all its naggy options turned on because at least you had the choice to revert to XP.

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  2. intlabs

    Fit for purpose

    This has now struck an elderly (91 year old) member of my family, and taken a perfectly fine, updated and patched windows 7 install, and replaced it with windows 10. There are driver issues now with the graphics chip-set (no official support) and he is unable to comprehend the UI changes, so cannot check his email unassisted any-more. He paid for a product (Win 7) that was compatible with his computer and it has now been replaced with one that he did not knowingly sign up for or offer compatibility with his existing hardware. Surely this is a pretty clear case for legal proceedings - I'm not going to do it as it'll take years and not improve his quality of life in anyway. So I'm going to put a "Pirated" copy of Win 7 back on his computer to restore the what he paid for.

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    1. Charles 9
      Reply Icon

      Re: Fit for purpose

      Wonder what'll happen when (not if) THAT copy gets upgraded to Windows 10 as well? And we find this is true for ANY copy of Windows 7 AND they find ways to defeat the anti-GWX measures, probably by way of a boot-time program? Oh, and jumping to Linux is not an option because one key program is Windows-ONLY, WINE-UNfriendly, and VM-incompatible?

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      1. intlabs
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        Re: Fit for purpose

        No, jumping to Linux is not on because of old dogs and new tricks, my folks (in their 60's) have already begun that transition - one on fedora, and the other ChromeOS (so pretty close). But to be blunt - when your at the stage that basic self care requires professional help, dealing with a new UI to stay in contact with your family is really not on the list of things to do. (shame as if I'd pushed em over 10 years ago then they could prob. still be on Gnome2 with a rolling release and be perfectly happy)

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        1. david bates
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          Re: Fit for purpose

          Ive transitioned my 77 year old father and a 65 year old uncle from P to Mint Mate. No problems, no support calls (except problems displaying photos on Google Earth for some reason).

          The only concession is there are shortcuts to 'word', 'excel', Firefox etc on the desktop.

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        2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
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          Re: Fit for purpose

          "No, jumping to Linux is not on because of old dogs and new tricks, my folks (in their 60's)"

          Just for reference, in their 60's doesn't actually mean they are all that old. They were in their probably teens at the start of the Disco era. They were probably in their mid 20's at the start of the share boom when Yuppies with red braces were all the rage and the home computer boom began.

          Be honest, when you think "65" or "pensioner" you see a minds eye picture of Miss Marple :-)

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          1. intlabs
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            Re: Fit for purpose

            Fair point :) My dad bought an Amstrad PC1512 on his own credit card because it ran DisplayWrite4: The powers that be couldn't understand why a civil servant would want a computer when there was a perfectly good typing pool. Its amazing how much has changed in just 30 years.

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          2. a_yank_lurker
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            Re: Fit for purpose

            Actually a 60+ was probably 20+ during the disco era. Depending on their field, the first computer they actually used (or owned) may be as late about 2000.

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            1. Anonymous Coward
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              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Fit for purpose

              WHAT!!!!

              Someone needs history lesson, or have you never heard of Windows 98 or Windows 95, or the BBC Micro, or the Amiga, or the Spectrum, or the (God help us) ZX80 ?? (The list goes on).

              ( Just into my 50s and running a computer since the late 80's and a PC since 97)

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      2. Alan Brown Silver badge
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        Re: Fit for purpose

        "Wonder what'll happen when (not if) THAT copy gets upgraded to Windows 10 as well? "

        My experience with pirated win7 installs (in outer bumfuckistan) being upgraded to win10

        1: 2 weeks to download the update. Yes, bandwidth really is that bad there.

        2: a day to install the update. Yes, the machines really wore that underpowered.

        3: after firing up, relatively ok BUT the installation realised the original serial numbers were fake, so nags every 10 minutes about pirate software and "pay $30 to get a legal version"

        These boxes were Dells - originally sold with Ubuntu onboard and "upgraded" to Win7 before being placed on desktops.

        The ironic thing is that Lubuntu + Libreoffice suited the outfit's needs perfectly, "but it isn't windows"

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        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Fit for purpose

          "The ironic thing is that Lubuntu + Libreoffice suited the outfit's needs perfectly, "but it isn't windows""

          If they have to correspond with people who use Microsoft Office, particularly heavily-scripted files, then it never has, does, or will fit perfectly, simply Microsoft is a moving target. It's Writer's Conundrum: they would much rather avoid Word, but the editor insists on it for annotation, and he's between you and the publishers who pay the royalties, so...

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          1. Alan Brown Silver badge
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            Re: Fit for purpose

            "If they have to correspond with people who use Microsoft Office, particularly heavily-scripted files, then it never has, does, or will fit perfectly,"

            Libre imports and exports office formats adequately for the purpose. Scripting isn't an issue.

            As stated in another thread: "80% of Office users only need 20% of the features." Which, incidentally is how MS took over the WP market in the first place (fewer features than what existed but 'good enough' and cheap.)

            MS being a moving target was actually a factor in switching to Lubuntu/libreoffice - too much stuff was coming in in newer msz formats the existing software couldn't open, etc.

            Compatibility issue solved. Licensing issues solved. Network printing/scanning issues also solved. Recurrent virus/malare problems solved. Productivity up by a factor of 5 or so. Old hardware life extended (important where the average pay is $4/day). Documents now all regularly backed up, etc. Yes, all doable with windows but the existing systems were crawling anyway and the desktops are now fairly snappy.

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            1. Charles 9
              Reply Icon

              Re: Fit for purpose

              "Libre imports and exports office formats adequately for the purpose. Scripting isn't an issue."

              Perfect or not at all, as the other side won't accept a document that's been converted and back unless it's exactly as it was before since they depend on their particular format for their business. And scripting WILL be an issue, as plenty of El Reg Commentards can attest. And you still haven't solved the Writer's Dilemma (the author who has an editor who insists on Word, and LibreOffice write doesn't convert annotations too well last I read).

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            2. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Mushroom

              Re: Fit for purpose

              MY local councils "Child Services" department use a number of active scripts and file types that ONLY open correctly with Office - versions from 2008 onwards.

              ACTIVE FUCKING SCRIPTS !!!!!!!

              Still, at least they have FINALLY dropped Fax as the only way they will send out invoicing information.

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              1. Kubla Cant
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                Re: Fit for purpose

                If you're sent a document that contains scripts, I suggest you treat it as malware.

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                1. Charles 9
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                  Re: Fit for purpose

                  "If you're sent a document that contains scripts, I suggest you treat it as malware."

                  That kinda limits your options when it's the ONLY legal way to interact with the GOVERNMENT in a particular instance. AND it comes from a signed government website.

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    2. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Fit for purpose

      You've got a month to roll back. It might not roll back properly, in which case you could boot into safe mode and run Jellybean Keyfinder to find the serial number and key then reinstall using an ISO from wherever you want.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fit for purpose

        "You've got a month to roll back. It might not roll back properly, in which case you could boot into safe mode and run Jellybean Keyfinder to find the serial number and key then reinstall using an ISO from wherever you want."

        A newly-qualified lawyer in magic circle firm can be £425/hour (story in Independent, if anyone's interested). No-one's going to hire lawyers to resolve this, although if some of that profession decide to prove that they actually did go into law to help people, and take on MS pro bono, for their own hourly rate times two to three hours work, then that could be a lot of fun to watch ....

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    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fit for purpose

      Imagine a double glazing firm, lets call them Microglaze: You paid them for version 7 of their windows for your house (which worked fine) and they came back a few years later in the middle of the night, ripped out your windows while you were sleeping to 'upgrade' them version 10 of their design (better locks and prettier mouldings), only to find that you needed new lintels to use them, and so ran away leaving them half installed new version of their windows lying on your patio - you know trading standards would be all over it like a puppy and burst football...

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      1. Sir Runcible Spoon
        Reply Icon

        Re: Fit for purpose

        For the person in the street (in the UK) I wonder if they (M$) could be taken to the small claims court for a payout?

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    4. energystar
      Reply Icon
      Childcatcher

      Re: Fit for purpose

      Anyone knows of a Win7 'look-alike' personalization on Win10?

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fit for purpose

        Anyone knows of a Win7 'look-alike' personalization on Win10?

        Try Classic Shell. It even made Win 8 pleasantly useable.

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        1. energystar
          Reply Icon
          Childcatcher

          Re: Fit for purpose

          Thanks!

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        2. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Fit for purpose

          Classic Shell was a sanity saver when my wife's W7 made a warning-free update to W10. Highly recommended (and paid for).

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    5. SImon Hobson Bronze badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Fit for purpose

      Go to the Police and report it as a crime - Section 3(3) of the Computer Misuse Act 1990. My suspicions are that you'll get one of two equally unhelpful responses, but you never know.

      The first one I'd expect would be "Eh ?"

      The other might be "Ah, another one"

      If, just if, enough people actually complain then they might have to take some action. And there's just that tiny tiny chance that if the office in Reading gets a visit from plod asking awkward questions about criminal activities then they might just change tack.

      Or we wait till someone with the wherewithall starts a class action and sues them to oblivion - in the US of course.

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  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I wouldn't have W10 now even if Microsoft paid for the hardware. Anyone using arsepipe tactics like this has thoroughly disqualified themselves from access to my machinery. They clearly cannot be trusted if they are prepared to stoop to tactics like we have seen; and have repeatedly demonstrated that they will further their own agenda irrespective of the wishes of, and cost and damage to their customers.

    We're seeing a bit of a sea-change with software companies, possibly driven by the advertising industry who have been using our time, electricity, bandwidth and MIPS without permission for ages (and who then have the temerity to bitch about it when they're blocked). Then the likes of Adobe started getting on board...there really isn't that much justification for a graphics manipulation program to be online unless you're storing everything on the cloud and using online images which not everybody does. That and the "stop whatever you're doing because it's Adobe time until we say you can have your computer back".

    Now it's one thing for advertisers to be trying this sort of thing, because they are unprincipled lying fucks and we've got used to that. Adobe seem to be getting away with it so far; but I have seen a number of designers who have walked away.

    An operating system, though, is on a completely different level. It's the foundation for everything else that happens on that computer. If the trust is gone, you don't have a product anymore. Microsoft is a behemoth, so the full effects will take some time to show themselves. If they survive this sort of behaviour, I shall be quite disappointed in my species.

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    1. Charles 9
      Reply Icon

      "An operating system, though, is on a completely different level. It's the foundation for everything else that happens on that computer. If the trust is gone, you don't have a product anymore. Microsoft is a behemoth, so the full effects will take some time to show themselves. If they survive this sort of behaviour, I shall be quite disappointed in my species."

      I'm ALREADY disappointed. Just look at the American political picture. We seem to be down to choosing between a megalomaniacal misogynist and a corporate-toeing political windbag who's been around the block several times already. And no other country really offers any better, which leads me to believe this is no more or less than standard human behavior at work, which means we're pretty much doomed; the only question is how soon. Do we slouch increasingly into nothingness or do we just start World War III and go out with a bang taking the planet with it?

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      1. Mr Flibble
        Reply Icon

        I'm expecting WW Ⅲ sometime this century anyway, so I don't suppose that it matters all that much. Still, hopefully I'll be proven wrong about that.

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      2. tekHedd
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        "megalomaniacal misogynist and a corporate-toeing political windbag"

        ... yes, but which one is which?

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        1. Charles 9
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          A female misogynist would hate HERSELF, though.

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          1. Bloakey1
            Reply Icon
            Joke

            "A female misogynist would hate HERSELF, though."

            Yes but in her case who cares! *cough*

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  5. Wolfclaw

    What I would like to know, is if Microshaft force WIn10 updates that lead to large estate of borked PC's that are not 100% WIn10 compatible and costing lots of man hours and money to put right or worst case, a death in a medical situation, are they liable, or do they have a pet lawyer/judge/politician/president somehere making rules up as they go along ?

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      It's short-termism and money. Microsoft have enough cash and influence to make suing them a long and arduous (not to mention expensive) process. By which time the people actually responsible for this will have fucked off over the horizon with their golden parachutes.

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      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge
        Reply Icon

        Having lots of lawyers only helps if the case is arguable. If the situation is that the end-user expressed a desire to skip the upgrade, but was overruled and then the upgrade broke the computer, then that's a fairly open and shut case of hacking in most parts of the world. (The fact that a massive corporation used inside knowledge to hack into your system is not going to mitigate in their favour.)

        The question is ... is that the situation? I've got quite a number of Win7 boxes that I keep for testing and they all have the GWX icon in their notification area, but none are forcing me to upgrade. As far as I know, I haven't done anything. (That's deliberate. I keep these as clean system images, for testing.) I'm just not getting the arm-twisting that I see reported elsewhere.

        So what's the full story?

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        1. VinceH
          Reply Icon

          You aren't alone. I know of someone who gets the nagware prompt him occasionally, but he dismisses it and it then leaves him alone for a while.

          Yet I also know of plenty of forced installations - and before I took control of Windows Update on my own hardware, I was almost upgraded against my wishes a couple of times, late last year.

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          1. Roland6 Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            @Ken Hagan - I've got quite a number of Win7 boxes that I keep for testing and they all have the GWX icon in their notification area, but none are forcing me to upgrade.

            @VinceH - I know of someone who gets the nagware prompt him occasionally, but he dismisses it and it then leaves him alone for a while.

            Much seems to depend upon Windows Update and GWX registry settings specifically the DisableOSUpgrade key - Remember GWX Control Panel doesn't actually do anything special, it just makes GWX's configuration settings visible and presents them in a user understandable way ie. it is a Control Panel for GWX. (Okay it also does a few other useful things, like check for the Win10 download folders.)

            But in general if you have the GWX icon in the system tray then GWX is active and there is a high probability your system will be upgraded at some point in the coming weeks via the GWX scheduling update described in the article. Because it is only in the system tray because OS Upgrade is enabled.

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            1. VinceH
              Reply Icon

              Yes - but the person I mentioned hasn't installed anything to try to resist. No Never10, no GWX Control Panel (and updates are still set to automatic).

              It's just the raw Microsoft nagware letting him off the hook.

              So far.

              I have told him I fully expect that to change - and because he's a non-technical user, I've suggested the various tools. However, because he hasn't seen any signs on his computer of the update using trickery or trying to force its way in, he's unconvinced it happens, and so has declined the tools.

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              1. Updraft102
                Reply Icon

                You don't leave malware on a PC because it hasn't done anything bad yet.

                You remove it. It's malware. It doesn't belong there.

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            2. Dadmin
              Reply Icon

              It sounds to me as if he's protecting his images inside a blocked network, and applied patches manually. Yeah, you're not going to get forced upgraded in there, unless you drop the force10fromRedmond package on it and go to town. My copy of XP is well protected as well, on a DVD-ROM disc in a drawer. Same thing.

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              1. VinceH
                Reply Icon

                If you're talking about the person I was referring to, then no, he isn't. He's just a typical, non-techie user who has a Windows 8.1 laptop that he connects to his network at home, and to the one in the office.

                If you're talking about Ken Hagan above, then (being a reader of this esteemed site) I think he'd probably know what he's doing and would know why he's not getting the forced updates instead of pondering why in this discussion.

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                1. Roland6 Silver badge
                  Reply Icon

                  @VinceH - re: He's just a typical, non-techie user who has a Windows 8.1 laptop that he connects to his network at home, and to the one in the office.

                  Wouldn't surprise me if his "use case" is what's protecting him, so the background drip of Win10 downloads really is a drip and not a steady flow. I've seen this with a non-techie user where they only have sub-1mbps ADSL and had the system on only when they were using it, when I investigated some problems last month, it was still downloading the November 2015 update to Win10 (v1511 Build 10586)...

                  Aside: Apologies in my post, I didn't explain why I mentioned GWX CP, the main thing was that running it in standalone mode (something a non-techie user can do without too much techie hand holding), made the real status of the machine with respect to GWX visible; normal users don't usually have all system folders and hidden folders visible in file explorer, so don't see the Win10 download folders and the system recovery folder, slowly and quietly growing in size. Hence running GWX CP, was a simple way to determine the state their machine was in, without them doing any fiddly techie stuff.

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                  1. VinceH
                    Reply Icon

                    "Wouldn't surprise me if his "use case" is what's protecting him"

                    It's a good thought, but I don't think so.

                    When he's using the laptop to work at home (and sometimes when away), possibly - I don't know how much use he makes of it, or what his internet connection is like.

                    I do know about the office, though - it's a full working day, usually four or five days per week, and they make extensive use of the internet. And the same connection has been good enough for a number of other machines to have had Windows 10 unexpectedly installed.

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                  2. Ken Hagan Gold badge
                    Reply Icon

                    @Roland6: I'll buy that theory. Whilst my test machines do get used, they also get rolled back to whatever state they were in at the end of the previous month's visit to Windows Update. As far as that disc image is concerned, the machine was installed many years ago but is only ever switched on once a month and left on long enough to pull down the latest Win7 updates and then (depending on my whim) it is either switched off again or it is subjected to a full disc clean-up and then switched off.

                    None of this would be conducive to downloading many gigs on the sly.

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      2. paulc
        Reply Icon

        the US government could exercise it's right of 'Eminent Domain' and take them into public ownership and stop this shenanigans...

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