Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
I second your sentiment (and I scream ever time I'm offered an app prefixed "my")
In GIMP's case it's less of a Journey and more of a Quest.
It may be poor man's Photoshop, but GIMP casts a Long Shadow with latest update
There appears to be no rest for Wilber as the GIMP team has updated the venerable image editor to version 2.10.6. We were delighted to see the arrival of the Straighten button in version 2.10.4, mainly due to our inability to hold a camera straight. Version 2.10.6 extends this handy feature to include vertical straightening, …
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 09:57 GMT bombastic bob
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
"Why does everything have to be an effing "experience" these days"
This reminds me of a light bulb joke:
Q. How many 'Silly Valley' residents does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Three. One to actually change the bulb, and 2 to "share in the experience"
And I bet I answered your question, too.
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 10:20 GMT Loud Speaker
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
it's not an "experience" it's a "journey".
In the case of Gimp, it is a wrestle - with an alligator!
Just try to add some text in a specific place, font and size. Even one word can take an hour as all your settings get eaten by vultures or kidnapped by aliens - you set 12 points? Well tough - it goes back to 17 pixels before you can press a space bar. You selected "Pillar box red"? Well, you did, but the default is black, so that is what you get?
As for changing the brush size? well you will need to sacrifice more than a goat for that to work!
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 23:24 GMT Trilkhai
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
Odd. I'm only moderately technically-oriented, learned Photoshop up through an advanced (class) level about 17 years ago (last version prior to the "CS" junk), but had little trouble switching to GIMP in 2008. I believe GIMP's UI is fairly similar to that old version of Photoshop -- I know that when I tried using a recent CS edition, I was frustratingly lost due to the UI changes.
To respond to some of the things mentioned in this thread:
-- Choose a brush/pencil size: select the shape in the tool box, then tweak the "size" control beneath it or use the [ and ] keys to increase/decrease size.
-- Draw (or erase) a straight line: select the brush or pencil and a size, then click at the starting point on the image, hold down the SHIFT key and click around the endpoint (as long as you don't release the SHIFT key you can readjust it).
-- Undo: hit ctrl-z... Or use the Layers & History box: IIRC 'history' is the second tab from the left; once it's selected, you can step backwards through every action you've taken.
I admit that the UI could definitely use a lot of work and that it needs a name change. Yeah, yeah, we know what the acronym stands for, but we all refer to it as GIMP, which *is* an insulting term.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 17:35 GMT ilmari
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
From my observations of random people trying gimp, they can't find anything because the buttons are all in windows floating around, sometimes with scrollbars, sometimes not.
Then, eventually, they try close gimp, except most of the time they close all the toolboxes before closing whichever window that makes gimp actually close. On next start, all the toolbox windows are gone, and user wonders where everything went, or concludes that maybe he/she misremembered and that gimp actually has no features.
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 10:12 GMT bombastic bob
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
"except most of the time they close all the toolboxes before closing whichever window that makes gimp actually close"
yeah some parts of the UI need [quite] a bit more user friendliness. I just tried that with a different login context, and had a little trouble getting the main toolbox back the way I wanted it.
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 09:20 GMT steviebuk
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
Especially when saving. File save as. What? Why can't I save as JPG etc.
Oh, what? I have to choose "export" instead? Really when every other fucking program just has it in the Save As bit. Why did they go the "export" route?
Still. Can't complain, it's free.
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 13:18 GMT Holtsmark
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
In my eyes, the Gimp UI is not a problem. I am still loosing the toolboxes every now and then, but otherwise the menu's do what they say that they do, inclunding the opening of new toolboxes.
Gimp covers all my personal and professional needs for bitmap processing (including website work).
Expanding my free toolbox, Inkscape covers all vector graphics needs, including backporting pdf's to dxf for import into CAD (reverse engineering parts that do not come with a 3d model).
Libre Office writer is good enough to handle large technical documents including operating manuals with very complex page numbering (LO-Calc remains lacklustre).
If you want a horrible UI, then go look at Blender3d. All other programs (except, maybe dwarf fortress) pale in comparison. This is a pity, since the program itself is getting mighty powerfull. (I work in CAD on a daily basis and I used to handle 3dsMAX in various versions, so it is not a matter of not knowing 3d),
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Friday 24th August 2018 06:58 GMT herman
Re: Forget the geeky stuff, sort out the user experience.
I never used Photoshop and once when I tried it, the UI was bloody awful. The GIMP is so much more logical and intuitive and it is properly designed for use on three screens - try to use Photoshop on three dissimilar screens - a total disaster.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 09:43 GMT Mage
Not just Photoshop, but PSP.
I used to really like Paint Shop Pro. It seemed to go "off" more and more after Version 7, so I uninstalled and went back to 7. Occasionally I tried The Gimp, but text baffled me. Then I switched entirely to Linux Mint + Mate desktop + TraditionalOK theme (or similar customised earlier). I figured out how to do text, which was actually FAR better than PSP7. I found the PSP native format plug in wouldn't work, so booted my old 2002 XP Laptop and converted all my PSP7 native stuff to Photoshop format (the Tif, png, bmp, jpg was no problem in Gimp). No problem importing the photoshop format.
The Gimp isn't something to be figured out in 10 minutes, but once you put half a day or a day into it, it's actually easier to use than PSP7. Much easier than later PSP versions with their baffling inconsistent GUI compared to 7.
I've used Photoshop and in the days of Win 3.x, Aldus Photostyler, sad it was eaten.
~
With PSP now "broken" by Corel, Windows "broken" by MS and Adobe a Rental model that fails if their server or internet is down, now Photoshop is only for corporate funded Mac users?
~
Ages ago they added decent Pen support and ability to have one window.
My Gimp is 2.8. My LibreOffice only 5.2, My Firefox is 52 ESR. I COULD update direct, but actually using Mint and letting the Ubuntu and other users test the newest version of stuff is turning into a nice strategy.
I'll look forward to getting LibreOffice 6.x and its enhanced custom dictionary mode, though Tabbed documents like Gimp & Firefox has would be nice. I look forward to this newer Gimp, eventually.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:57 GMT sabroni
Re: once you put half a day or a day into it, it's actually easier
That really doesn't matter. You've lost most of the potential users in the first half day.
A good user interface is inviting, uses standard elements that users already know and invites experimentation by ensuring undoing stuff is as easy as doing it. It doesn't matter how much fancy stuff your app does, if it's not easy to use and there are alternatives then most users will go somewhere else.
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 01:28 GMT eldakka
Re: once you put half a day or a day into it, it's actually easier
That really doesn't matter. You've lost most of the potential users in the first half day.
If they can't spend a day or 2 learning how to use it, then they aren't the target audience anyway, they weren't potential users, therefore nothing has been lost by them giving up after half a day.
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 02:05 GMT Teiwaz
Re: once you put half a day or a day into it, it's actually easier
That really doesn't matter. You've lost most of the potential users in the first half day.
Anyone with that short an attention span was probably never going to use any piece of software to it's full extent, they'd be better off with MS Paint or something for small children to use with their grubby fingers leaving smudges over the screen.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 13:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Not just Photoshop, but PSP.
"With PSP now "broken" by Corel, Windows "broken" by MS and Adobe a Rental model that fails if their server or internet is down, now Photoshop is only for corporate funded Mac users?"
I couldn't agree more!
The Adobe rental model is a particular bugbear of mine, it's why we're still stuck on CS4...
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 09:54 GMT WylieCoyoteUK
I use Libreoffice and GIMP a lot, also Scribus, which nicely integrates with GIMP, and Inkscape.
Nice to be able to work on the same files with the same apps across different platforms. My preferred OS is Linux, but I use Windows at the office, most of the competition are Windows or Mac only.
I actually like the multiwindow UI, great with multiple screens, I can work with the image on one screen and the layers and toolbox on another. But you can have a single window if you prefer.
Such a powerful image editor is never going to be simple, especially when some people try to use it as a drawing program, for which there are far better tools.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:03 GMT smudge
First thoughts on Straighten
We were delighted to see the arrival of the Straighten button in version 2.10.4, mainly due to our inability to hold a camera straight. Version 2.10.6 extends this handy feature to include vertical straightening...
First thought was that I wished I'd had that when I was scanning about 10,000 old family photos that came down to me. I would do several in one scan, then, using GIMP 2.8, cut out each individual one, and nearly always had to rotate them a little because it's impossible to place them exactly on the scanner platen.
But I have just tried the new "straighten" function, and I think that hitting shift-r and rotating the image manually is probably quicker. And not every photo has a handy vertical or horizontal straight line.
Still, I'll give it a proper trial when I come to scan the thousands of my own photos, which SWMBO wants out of that cupboard!
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:16 GMT FelixReg
Re: First thoughts on Straighten
@smudge I've digitized 10000 to 15000 slides and also some pictures and a handful of 8MM movies from the 1930's. All through ScanCafe. They have regular sales with considerable discounts. I have no other connection to them except being a happy customer who tells friends and relations to go that route. (Note: I'm the type of person who gives 4 stars if a product is completely satisfactory. 5 stars mean, "Wow!")
I ran a few dozen or so slides and pics through ScanCafe first to evaluate.
Hope this helps.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:44 GMT Dave 126
Re: First thoughts on Straighten
Picasa by Google was always very good for quickly straightening photos manually, far quicker than Photoshop. The speed was partly that photos didn't have to individually opened, edited, and, saved, and partly the straightening slider tool automatically displayed guidelines and cropped images. One worked from a page of thumbnails, and edits were saved to the original file. After editing a batch, the whole batch could then be saved with changes to a new folder.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 11:19 GMT smudge
Re: First thoughts on Straighten
@smudge I've digitized 10000 to 15000 slides and also some pictures and a handful of 8MM movies from the 1930's. All through ScanCafe.
You mean this lot? https://www.scancafe.com/
Hmmm - Indianapolis, Lausanne, or Bangalore.
If I am scanning photos, it's because I attach some value to them. So there is no way I am sending them anywhere!
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 11:54 GMT FelixReg
Re: First thoughts on Straighten
@smudge Worry about shipping around the world was one reason why I tested with a small batch for each of the two big runs I did. My first ~10,000 slide run were slides from a recently deceased parent.
So far as I know all slides went through Bangalore. Took a month or so. The movies where done in Fremont, probably. The pics, I'm not sure. They took a while, like the slides.
The pics came back in better shape than I sent them. Pictures from around 1900 can be difficult to send and I'm not the world's best packer. I shipped in boxes, each with around 5000 slides in them, plus some pics, etc.
I do know when one of the 8mm movies came out blank (no surprise, I'd already seen that, but lazily put it in the big box anyway.) they sent back an overhead video of the unpacking and handling procedure along with apologies. What I figured from that video was:
1) They probably video all handling.
2) The video showed a professional-level production setup.
Yeah, I was impressed. Surprisingly, they did recover the other videos, in very bad shape as they were.
Also, I'd done quite a bit of experimentation myself using two or three methods and equipment, etc. And, some of my own slides I'd had done by a pro photography place long ago at something like a buck or two a slide. ScanCafe's results were notably superior to all methods I tried.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:04 GMT Anonymous Coward
+1 about the GUI ...
It's the Achilles heel of Linux. With no big vendor with a dog in the race (cf Microsoft) we've ended up with a fractured disparate approach which is the kiss of death when trying to plug Linux over Windows.
Whilst generally that can be considered A Good Thing, it makes it very hard to deliver a Linux version of a Windows box. Even if all the applications are better.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:32 GMT I Am Spartacus
Re: +1 about the GUI ...
You want to deliver a Linux version of a Windows box?
Why? Seriously, why would you want to do that?
One of the key points of Linux is that you can choose, and then customise, the desktop, and the UI for most applications, to do what you want. And specifically, not what some eager young thing in Seattle decides is the right way to build ribbon bars and that no, I don't need that menu item that I used for the last 5 years, so we hid it for you. Yes, Excel developers, I am talking to you here.
If you REALLY want a Linux box that looks like Windows (shudder), then I suggest you first try and learn how to use Google. Honestly, it really isn't that hard to use. I tried Google and searched for "windows 10 theme linux" and the first hit was b00merang
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 14:37 GMT elgarak1
Re: +1 about the GUI ...
"It can be configured" unfortunately very often translates to "must be configured, as the presets are abysmally bad". A lot of Linux distributions, Linux UIs, and Linux originating apps suffer from it. GIMP is a prime example. (Interestingly enough, the styles in Word are another good example. It's not just on Linux...)
Now, if a user sets out to configure, one realizes that configuring GUIs and GUI elements is actually quite hard work to make it good. Which is why a lot of users flock to somewhere where this hard work has been done by professionals. Which often means having to pay cash.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 13:20 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: trolling
All of my applications* on Linux have the same UI style. I can select from 100s of others, or even tweak them myself. All applications will respect my configuration.
On Windows, there's win10 desktop (sometimes you'll see win 95 style), UWP (Ugly Windows Phone), and then there's a multitude of applications all using their own different themes. It's a fucking mess!
*except, of course, Skype and VS Code, but they're not too far off.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 13:36 GMT defiler
Re: trolling
In Linux you can have as many as you like! As long as you keep thinking that's an advantage Linux is staying in the server room.
I'm with this argument. It's the techie's approach. We can make it customisable, therefore we must make it customisable. It gets to the point where there's too much choice, and people are paralysed in making a decision. So they stick with Windows because it's what they know and it's less confusing.
Sometimes choice is a bad thing. I hate buying toothpaste because it's all powdered rock, fluoride, mint and a binding agent but somehow there are 50 options when I'm in front of the shelf. At that point I take the simplest option. And when it comes to GUIs, for most people the simplest option is to stick with Windows / OS-X.
Pare it down to 6 options that'll work with desktops, servers and laptops. Have an "expert" mode with all the configuration buttons you like, but keep them hidden by default. That is how you'll attract users.
Honestly, for developers they don't seem very good at Keep It Simple, Stupid.
(I think it's been 3 years since I last saw a GUI on a non-Android Linux machine. It used to be my daily driver, and it was definitely viable. Now all my Linux is on the server end.)
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 16:00 GMT h4rm0ny
Re: trolling
I don't think it's bad that there are lots of options in itself. But what it results is balkanization of all the developers and users so that no single UI ever gets the level of polish and progress that it would. Windows has a single UI that is linear and iterative. I like it these days. KDE, GNOME, et al not so much. I actually use Xfce almost all the time on GNU/Linux because it's light, simple and has reached that level of polish by simple virtue of being both these things.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 19:03 GMT Malcolm 1
Re: +1 about the GUI ...
In my limited experience Linux UIs tend still to give the impression of being wrappers around console apps. Which is the Linux way of course (and provides the scripting superpowers) but doesn't lend itself to fluid user experiences which often require deeper interaction with the application runtime.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:36 GMT mark l 2
GIMP does take some time to get used to, on a previous job version 2.6 was the only tool I had available when I needed to do some graphics work on the PCs. I was used to using photoshop and the Corel suite. So I sat down for a while and learned how to use it and then actually showed some colleagues who had attempted to use it before and given up and they actually became fans of it.
I do think the UI does require some work, this can often be a problem with open source software. The people who develop it aren't coming to use it for the first time so they find the UI easy where as newbies can struggle to work out how to do even basic functions. Such as have you ever tried to draw a filled shape in GIMP such as a circle or square? Not obvious how to do it for someone who has never used the software before.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:58 GMT frank ly
Use of the selection tool (rectangular or elliptical) to define an area, then applying a colour inside the selected area with the fill tool is a standard technique across various raster graphics applications. It's also very simple as a concept and a task to do.
If someone has never used this type of application before, or has spend a long time with vector graphics applications like Inkscape, then there will of course be a learning curve but it's hardly a steep one.
I've lost count of the number of computer applications I've tried where I've said, "How the heck am I supposed to do XYZ?" and after a short time I realised it was quite simple.
The GIMP UI is 'old fashioned' and has some irritations and annoyances but these are in the details. The basics are superb.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 10:55 GMT Anonymous Coward
I've used GIMP for a long time. I migrated to that after PSP8 - although agree with the comments above on the UI - I still prefer the user interface to something like Paint.NET
In terms of professional editing - I still struggle with the lasso and layer tools in GIMP. I used to use Adobe CS3 so worked a lot in Adobe Fireworks and Adobe Photoshop. The layering within those products is really good and it's possible to pick up a now old copy of CS3 for professional editing.
However, I can't grumble too much as GIMP is free.
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 13:14 GMT jrd
Picked up a cheap second-hand copy of Photoshop CS2 some years back after failing to get to grips with GIMP. CS2 does everything. Not at all easy to learn, but there's such an established user base that I can type "cs2 how to ..." for just about anything and find an an article or video to help me out. It's also been rock solid (probably the most reliable non-trivial application I've ever used).
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Wednesday 22nd August 2018 16:03 GMT Charles E
Failure version 2.10.6
GIMP will never gain widespread acceptance, because the industry standard tools like CMYK separations, Pantone colors, etc. are all proprietary code and thus cannot be included in GNU-license software. Sorry, that's just a fact of life for professional graphics creators. Amateur software is only good for amateurs.
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 12:20 GMT Charles 9
Re: Failure version 2.10.6
And there's a reason no open-source implementation can be made? Pantone perhaps is out of reach because of patents, but CMYK is basic enough. Last I checked, CMYK is simply low priority because DTP isn't the bulk of GIMP's users (you still have photographers, web image designers, et al).
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Thursday 23rd August 2018 13:27 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Failure version 2.10.6
CMYK management it's not a DTP operation only - if you're a photographer and you're going to print your work using an halftone CMYK printer - you may want to control the process to ensure the best results.
Gimp also lacks many needed features for proficient photo editing, like larger RGB color spaces, and adjustment layers. Even to open RAW files you need to add third party application like DarkTable or RAWTherapee (Photoshop comes with ACR fully integrated).
As it is now, it's really mostly a tool for web image designers who don't need a more powerful tool.
Anyway, making inroads in the prepress industry is not easy, most workflows are based on what became de-facto standards, and you'll need a truly excellent product to have chances. Lacking Pantone support for spot colors when it's a must doesn't help either.
And I don't know how many Gimp developers have the required hardware to develop and test high-end CMYK functionalities...
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
