back to article Boss regrets pointing finger at chilled out techie who finished upgrade early

Friday is upon us once more, which can mean only one thing: it’s time for On Call, our weekly instalment of Reg readers’ tech support frustrations. This week, “Luca” tells us how his hopes of a chilled-out Friday – and possibly plans to kick back reading this very column – evaporated in the face of an angry boss. At the time …

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

        True, but @Mk4 didn't claim it was a hack job. For all we know, they could have documented it up the wazoo, pointed out it's criticality, and even gotten sign off from a Higher Being...but that's no guarantee that a busybody in another part of the org couldn't insist it be taken down.

        Being real life, of course, this can go both ways:

        A: "Ach, I'll just roll my own crypto". Busybody: "Hell no" - BB probably saved the day there.

        A: "Ach, I'll just write some glue code" Busybody: "Hell no" - BB probably cost the company $$$ as now the swarms of IBM/SAP/$expensive consultants arrive to tear apart the business.

        1. Cynic_999

          Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

          "

          True, but @Mk4 didn't claim it was a hack job

          "

          He did however state that it was written in a language that the company did not permit to be used on their system, so it was an unauthorised (and hence unapproved) modification. So I honestly cannot see that it would have been nicely documented in the appropriate place. Things like that end up being a mess that someone else will have to deal with at some time in the future. Perhaps it was needed to circumvent the consequences of someone else's unauthorised mods ... ?

          1. Stevie

            Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

            He did however state that it was written in a language that the company did not permit to be used on their system,

            The report said that the language was not approved; not quite the same thing.

            Personal example. After trying to get my own enterprise of the day to look at Lotus 123 for some critical analysis type stuff (it was a very long time ago) I got cricket noise.

            A few years later someone from Head Office announced they had just done a report in Excel (which had come along in the interim) and it was the best thing since sliced bread and he was recommending that everyone use it for such purposes.

            I "replied all" to his email saying I quite agreed and could we please have three copies, one for each member of the DBA team.

            His boss then responded that Excel was not an approved product and no-one would get a copy until it was. Notice that the original document had been received with widespread approval.

            At this point in time, excel was the industry standard spreadsheet tool. Our leather ledgers and beam engine enterprise was lagging about ten years behind the rest of the western world in office automation and had not put MS Office products though the approval process.

            Yes the place "did not permit" excel, but only because those with the power to approve it hadn't heard of it and you couldn't put in a PO unless the software was approved. Two years later, once Windows 95 had put a PC in everyone's home, everyone in that enterprise had a copy. By that time I was working elsewhere.

            I came back in mid '96 though, just in time to get caught in the "Let's not install TCP/IP for our state-wide network. Lets stick with our own proprietary protocol with some home-written extensions to make the things it won't do work" six-month-long farcical waste of time.

            1. Alan Brown Silver badge

              Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

              > "Let's not install TCP/IP for our state-wide network. Lets stick with our own proprietary protocol with some home-written extensions to make the things it won't do work"

              It was misadventures like this (various iterations of network stacks) which taught me that people can adapt to different networking standards pretty easily - and that the majority of the resistance to IPv6 is because IPv4 "seems to work fine, so why bother changing it?" (for the same reason you changed away from the other cruft at various times, you fucktards!)

      2. Mk4

        Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

        Hello AC - no offense taken. When we found the problem we tried to have the SQL query changed to correct the problem, but we had to get approval from 6 (count ‘em - 6) mid to senior managers. Just getting them on a call was hard enough, trying to get a proposed change approved did not work as it always expired before we could get the managers to all sign off. Jesus - you have no idea how disfunctional the governance processes for systems like this were. The next step was to try and figure out why the mainframe messages were coming in in the wrong order but that was an exercise in screaming into the abyss. No response of any kind (although I got the distinct impression that the abyss was looking back with a wry smirk on it’s face). In the end I decided that given the graph of order quantity over time (which looked pretty steep) we better do something to keep the system working and give us breathing space.

        The situation you describe is indeed very bad but reacting to the potential for that situation to emerge by making it impossible to fix things also has drawbacks :-)

        1. Gene Cash Silver badge

          Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

          > that was an exercise in screaming into the abyss

          I would have used the resultant "crash" when the script was turned off as leverage on the mainframe guys and the 6 useless managers. Maybe use it to get the attention of whatever SVP was over them.

          "Nope, my script isn't approved... the mainframe folks need to get their shit together"

          1. Denarius

            Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

            Gene, that does not work. The techie is told to "fix it" and just shut up. Or both. It is never the fault of the manglement class. Most of there "processes" are there to allow technically incompetent to exercise power without accountability. Once in a large hellhole IT staff were supposed to have planned months ahead for zero day type exploit patching. Of course scheduled regular downtime was nonexistent because this was a 24/7/365 organisation in name. I have _never_ seen a study of the cost of this official obstruction.

            Most of us have had the irritation of change control droids gloating that about disapproving changes for process reasons. One time I worked with a change control team who understood their role was to ensure the process was done correctly and pointed out problems before the change meetings so necessary work got done on time as scheduled. It was an effective workplace.

            1. Alan Brown Silver badge

              Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

              "Most of us have had the irritation of change control droids gloating that about disapproving changes for process reasons. "

              Change control droids like that are control freaks who need their faces introduced to their desks at speed a few times.

        2. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: "Can you turn it back on. Please?"

          " Just getting them on a call was hard enough, trying to get a proposed change approved did not work as it always expired before we could get the managers to all sign off."

          The trick is to arrange for men in balaclavas with sawn off shotguns to be standing behind their desks until they do.

          Or just disable their networking.

  1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Back in the days of dumb terminals talking to Unix servers we had an accounts package that had to be fed a new re-licensing key at intervals and it would simply issue a reminder that that was falling due at the start of every terminal session. I'd cobbled together an arrangement (in modern parlance, written an bot) that enabled our order processing system to make account enquiries on it. That got into trouble when it first encountered the reminder. Eventually, because back then our database system, Informix, shared a C-ISAM base with the accounts package, it was possible to persuade it* that the accounting files were database tables and read them directly.

    *Create a database with tables corresponding to the structure of the foreign package, delete the data and index files and replace them with links to the files you want to read.

    1. MrBanana

      Tetraplan by any chance? I used to do custom development of their accounts package using their weird conversion of BASIC to C via convoluted macros. The C-ISAM link to I-SQL trick was a common dodge so that a real forms entry system and report writer could be used instead of the horrors of the Tetraplan code.

      1. Captain Scarlet

        That wasn't TetraCS (ERP) was it?

        The name sounds is very close but can't find anything on Google. (Tetra CS which used to use CISAM data files before going SQL before being brought out by Sage to become Sage Line 500)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > Back in the days of dumb terminals talking to Unix servers ...

      I think they're called "HR staff", "sales droids", and "management" these days.

    3. MrBanana

      Oh, and you needn't have bothered so much about problems with renewing license keys. Once you'd figured out the relationship between the modules and their keys, it wasn't difficult to clone a valid key for one module and activate any other module you wanted.

      [ In a future On-Call, I could tell the tale of how we managed to got hold of the Tetraplan system source code. ]

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It was a dark and stormy morning...

    ... some time in the early 90s, and we're hacking out C code in a semi-abandoned warehouse somewhere in Docklands.

    Our company had just been taken over, and our shiny (as in 'freshly polished by Andrex') new CEO had this particular morning just been spammed by something called the Federation Against Software Theft, and being one of those types who believed everything he read, he called the tech boss (who we'll call Simon, for that was his name) into his office, where he told him 'Look at this... illegal software, humph... will not be tolerated... inspect the underlings' computers at once... harrumph', etc.

    Simon (emerging from the CEO's office) : "OK, everyone, stop work at once. Nobody is to do any work until further notice."

    CEO (following him out) : "What? What on earth do you think you're doing? I told you..."

    Simon : "I heard what you said. Actually there isn't a single legal copy of the C compiler in the whole company."

    1. Alien8n

      Re: It was a dark and stormy morning...

      I posted elsewhere about an ex IT Manager boss, but this just reminded me of yet another idiot moment he had.

      FAST somehow managed to persuade him that open source software was ILLEGAL. The argument being that to be legally used by a business you had to apply for a license to use it. And that involves paying for said license. As there was no way to apply for a license to use free software it must therefore be illegal to use.

      Completely ignoring the fact that open source software that is free to use in a commercial environment comes with a lovely little box when you install the software that informs you of the open source license agreement that you accept to continue installing. That or it's just in the T&Cs on their website...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It was a dark and stormy morning...

        FAST and FACT, both media distributor funded extortion rackets

        I remember the old "video piracy, daylight robbery" that came on every video even if retail. My sympathies were always with the market trader such that "(suck teeth) tracking is touchy", " said's no good mate" and "verbal contract? not worth the paper its printed 'on" became my favourite support phrases.

        1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
        2. Nick Ryan Silver badge

          Re: It was a dark and stormy morning...

          FACT... an organisation that lies so badly they even made their name a lie.

          It is rather hard to steal copyright. It is, however, relatively easy to violate copyright through making a copy of something that is copyrighted without prior permission to do so or without being able to rely on one of the various standard acceptable use clauses.

          Theft is taking something and depriving the owner of the use of it. Making a copy of something, even where making money off the copy is not, and cannot be, theft. The same goes for boarding a train without a tickt - this is not theft either (looking at you, Thameslink, although who would want to use their shoddy, randomly cancelled services if they had a choice I don't know).

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It was a dark and stormy morning...

          I remember the old "video piracy, daylight robbery" that came on every video even if retail.

          I prefer the more recent ads they showed at the start of films, supposedly to stop teenagers from downloading movies.

          The problem is, the ad is a limited length, show it shows the miscreant teenager downloading a whole Blu-Ray quality feature-length film in about 3 seconds.

          Wouldn't that be more ENcouraging? "Look how quick and easy it is!!!"

          Torrents, and the pre-web internet protocol that I shall not name (1st rule, etc....) never give me those speeds! [Ignoring the fact my downloads seem to top out at about 24Mbs]

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It was a dark and stormy morning...

        That sounds just like the guy that came into a municipal authority I used to work for and ripped out all the shiny new open-source-powered servers, firewalls, etc. that his predecessor had rolled out, citing concerns over the legality of OSS. He migrated them all back to Windows and also issued a decree that all schools, etc. must replace all their open-source systems with Windows ones.

        This process was completed just in time for SQL Slammer to come visiting via his wonderfully secure IIS firewall, followed a few months later by a friendly visit from Blaster, to which he responded with an emergency plug-pull on everyone's WAN/internet connections until a team had visited each site and scanned & cleaned all the computers.

        A few of us had resisted his pressure to remove our non-Windows systems. Funnily enough, we were the only ones whose networks turned out to be completely clean when the team came around.

        He didn't stay for much longer after that.

        1. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: It was a dark and stormy morning...

          ...having accomplished his mission.

  3. Andrew Moore

    Beancounters...

    Just back from holiday- before I went away, I put in an order for some critical infrastructure; I'd done everything, identified kit, found supplier, got quotes, pro formas, everything. All Accounting had to do was arrange a bank transfer to pay for it and the jobs done. I get back from holiday and everyone's running around like headless chickens. Our client is up in arms because the equipment we are meant to install this week hasn't even arrived. So, because I was away, the blame got landed in my lap in-abscentia. Until I provided the paper trail, and a statement from the supplier, all pointing the fingers at the Accounts Dept not paying for the order yet.

    Now I need another holiday...

  4. kmac499

    Rug Pulled by pissed off third party..

    Not being experts in Hosting and unified comms the small company I was in had a shared hosting resource with a partner company (aka 'Kev'' the unified telecomms guru) . For some unknown reason 'Kev' had a falling out without the actual hosting company and closed his super account without telling anyone else.. Which of course cast all our sites adrift as well.. 'Kev' remained in a huff and out of contact, so we had to mad scramble an alternative hosting platform recreate the sites and wait for DNS's to catch up. An interesting Monday morning..

    (BTW Always make sure you have ALL the passwords from your supplier\support guys to your unified comms IP voice data PABX box.)

    1. Anonymous South African Coward Bronze badge

      Re: Rug Pulled by pissed off third party..

      Which makes me wonder - what if somebody outsources all IT services, then neglects to pay the outsourcer...

      1. Clockworkseer

        Re: Rug Pulled by pissed off third party..

        Well, that would be an Interesting Day.

        1. DuchessofDukeStreet

          Re: Rug Pulled by pissed off third party..

          Only for the user community surely as there would be no "IT function" in the company any more? And no IT system would mean no finance system and no means of tracking or paying anyone....?

          It probably depends on the size of the respective parties but outsourcing companies are probably more likely to tolerate delayed/lack of payments than an employee would.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Rug Pulled by pissed off third party..

        Do businesses that use AWS use a credit card to pay the bill like us mere mortals do?

        I was curious, after reading all these comments, how it works at Netflix. Maybe there's someone in Netflix' accounts payable department who has the mother of all credit card bills every month...but being an accountant, is also using one of those points/cashback cards so that they never need to pay for a hotel or airfare again.

        1. EdFX

          Re: Rug Pulled by pissed off third party..

          No, once you reach a certain bill size AWS (and Rackspace) will invoice you... Guess rest do too.

      3. Shadowslayer

        Re: Rug Pulled by pissed off third party..

        I worked for an outsourced IT company and a client didn't pay their bill for four months. We tried desperately to get ahold of them, but they claimed they wanted to switch providers. So we simply deleted their virtual servers, and the backups. When they called foul our lawyer mentioned that based on the contract we could have done it without notice after the first month. So they just had to deal.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Had a fairly similar situation a few years ago.

    We provided and hosted the ticketing website for a prominent Train operating company, and late one Friday night the website disappeared off the internet.

    Turns out the TOC still controlled the company domain name on which the site was hosted, and they had steadfastly ignored all the renewal letters and emails from their domain registrar, so the registrar suspended the domain.

    Come the Saturday morning, and a veritable shit-storm of abuse is hurled at us from just about every senior member of the TOC staff, threatening all sorts of reprisals up to and including legal action.

    They were slightly hampered by the fact that the same domain was used for all their company emails, but they still blamed us anyway.

    When we tried to explain that it was out of our control - and in fact only within their control to fix it, we were met with demands - not requests but demands - that we do something about it immediately.

    So, given that our agreed support contract was only for office hours, Monday to Friday, we chose to ignore the increasingly desperate threats and cajoling for the rest of the weekend.

    On Monday morning I rang the TOC's grandly named "Head of Technology" and slowly and carefully explained the situation. Again. After further investigation, it appeared that the member of staff responsible for managing the company domains had been "let go" and had been the only person who had the log-in details for the domain registrar account.

    It took until the Wednesday afternoon before the site was returned to normal operation.

    1. AndyMulhearn

      GWR?

      It took until the Wednesday afternoon before the site was returned to normal operation\

      If I recall correctly GWR went thought this a while ago. Attempts to access their loathsome site resulted in a domain not registered, or some such similar “they fucked up” page.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

    From (bitter) personal experience.

    You work for MegaCorp, where it can tale a geological age to get a purchase order examined, approved and actioned. Which is your project put back 6 months.

    So you try and speed things up by using *your* credit card and claiming back on expenses.

    Which works fine. Everyones happy. And now, of course, because it's all working, why bother to switch payments. Just carry on submitting the invoices and getting the money back on expenses.

    Until you're made redundant, and lose access to the systems to remove your card details. And now you can't even claim the money back on expenses (as that can only be paid to employees).

    1. Wellyboot Silver badge

      Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

      Bill the company (+ a nice%) you're a 3rd party supplier now. :)

      1. Valeyard

        Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

        you phone up and request a new card. that one dies and the company gets a little redundancy karma

        Really though, no project is important enough for me to use my personal payment details. If that means a 6 month delay then so be it

        1. Sixtysix
          Pint

          Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

          > Really though, no project is important enough for me to use my

          > personal payment details. If that means a 6 month delay then so be it

          Whilst I usually agree, when:

          - the goods required (MS Surface3, not 4 as Win 7 was essential) are not available new

          - the user is the new CEX, who started today and wants "new" shiny tomorrow

          - Company (government) credit cards are not approved on Auction/Second hand tat sites

          ...sometimes it pays to be able to wander into town and visit local CEX with personal card to preserve employment. I had no issues getting that expense pushed through ;p

          1. Jason 24

            Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

            " the user is the new CEX, who started today and wants "new" shiny tomorrow"

            If he has CEx is his title he will have surely have a personal card with a much much bigger limit than my own, he can damn well buy it himself.

            1. MachDiamond Silver badge

              Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

              "If he has CEx is his title he will have surely have a personal card with a much much bigger limit than my own, he can damn well buy it himself."

              A little sucking up can be in order until you find out how much this new lobotomy patient can impact you job. Visit their office and tell them you have already found the best price on this item (a lie, pick the one that can deliver the fastest) and come prepared with a laptop you can use to place the order with their card right then and there. You hand them back their card and the next day visit them again with their new toy all set up, charged and ready to sit on the side of the desk gathering dust.

          2. PerlyKing
            Meh

            Re: Personal payments

            > the user is the new CEX, who started today and wants "new" shiny tomorrow

            I wasn't there etc, but I hope that in a similar situation I'd get the new CEX (what's a CEX anyway?) to shell out from his own pocket before paying from mine.

            I'm sure there's an adage about never lending money to anyone richer than yourself - an amount that matters to you probably seems petty to them, to the point of genuinely slipping their minds.

          3. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

            "- the user is the new CEX, who started today and wants "new" shiny tomorrow"

            That new CEX should have a shiny new card or at least some pull to get a check cut or some other CEX's card to purchase the gear.

            You always want a paper trail. You want that paper trail on paper. You don't don't want to justify that purchase of new shiny 8 months down the road when there is a department audit with that CEX having left the month before and not around confirm that they requisitioned the kit and it wasn't just you buying yourself a nice new toy. They probably took the device with them when they left too if it was a portable device. It's not like the firm is going to chase after a departed executive for a few hundred quid worth of used tech.

          4. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

            So an S3 is essential to their work , however they do not own one and are incapable of acquring one.

            How long have they been negotiating for this position? How long have they worked in some kind of business situation? When were they planning to learn to "think one step ahead"?

            If I call a plumber I expect them to have at least a plunger and a wrench of some sort...

            It baffles me how some supposed hot-shot can be taken seriously if they can't even be arsed to acquire the very device that they claim is so vital to their ability to work.

        2. psychonaut

          Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

          actually, that isnt true.

          credit card numbers dont die. even if you get a new card, there is still an authorisation to use the old number and it cannot be blocked (at least not by amex and lloyds, cant vouch for anyone else) . i was gobsmacked when i found out.

          you have to put a block on a particular supplier on that account.

          this is from experience for a client, who was having hundreds of pounds a week spent by one of his kids' friends on xbox crap on his amex and lloyds cards

          1. Allan George Dyer

            Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ...

            @pschonaut - "credit card numbers dont die. even if you get a new card, there is still an authorisation to use the old number and it cannot be blocked"

            I found the same thing when I was changing ISPs. Fortunately, I was planning ahead, I didn't want the ISP to 'forget' to stop charging me, so I called my bank and told them I was de-authorising the ISP. They told me I couldn't revoke the authorisation and I tried explaining that I could: I signed the form authorising it, so it was me who could revoke it. They didn't agree. So I cancelled the card. All complete before the ISP's next billing date.

            A nasty trick is when you find you've taken a loan for future service. A friend was pressured into buying a course of beauty treatment, "pay with your credit card and it's only this much a month". She had the first session, found it painful and didn't want to continue. When she tried to cancel, it emerged that the beauty company had already been paid up-front by the credit card and she couldn't back out (note: your applicable consumer protection laws may be different).

            TL;DR: credit card companies will collude with anyone to screw you over... whether by paying when you don't want them to like this, or by not paying when you do want them to, like in the On-Call story.

            1. Stevie

              Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ... 4 Allan George Dyer

              Yep, that "never-ending charge" scam was widespread in NY in the mid 80s with gyms, most infamously Jack LaLanne's franchise.

              The "put the charge on a card that you are willing to cut up and not replace" technique was for many years the ONLY way to sever financial ties with them.

              Of course, in those days you could get a credit card simply by waiting for an application to drop in the mailbox. They fell like maple leaves in autumn.

              When we bought our house we had about a dozen cards for that reason. We made a terrible mistake and cut most of them up as "unused". Closing out the cards dinged-up our credit rating (because the model assumes if you close an account it is because of debt consolidation and hence you are a bad risk).

              1. Allan George Dyer
                Holmes

                Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ... 4 Allan George Dyer

                @Stevie - "Closing out the cards dinged-up our credit rating (because the model assumes if you close an account it is because of debt consolidation and hence you are a bad risk)."

                If I were cynical, I'd suggest that your behaviour had flagged you as the sort of person that manages their finances so that they don't end up paying high interest rates for years, so, yes, a bad risk of the bank not making enough profit.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Usually gets worse, the bigger the company ... 4 Allan George Dyer

                  @Stevie - "Closing out the cards dinged-up our credit rating (because the model assumes if you close an account it is because of debt consolidation and hence you are a bad risk)."

                  @AllanIf I were cynical, I'd suggest that your behaviour had flagged you as the sort of person that manages their finances so that they don't end up paying high interest rates for years, so, yes, a bad risk of the bank not making enough profit.

                  I closed out our a couple of unused cards at USAA several months ago. My credit score as reported by USAA dropped from 730 to 690. USAA's suggestions as to how to improve my score was 1) get a mortgage (I own my house outright) 2) get consumer loans (I have none) 3) take on revolving credit (nada again). I use a CC to get a cash kickback (2.5%) and pay my bill off every month via autopay from a savings account. It would appear that I am not one of their favorite customers.

                  I bought a new car (Subaru) giving 0% loans w/o dealer participation (couldn't get a better deal for cash - tried at 4 dealers), put 3K$ down on cc (the max CC down the dealer would allow) and have the rest earing 2% as I pay it off. Screwball...

                  .

          2. Stevie

            Re: spent by one of his kids' friends on xbox crap on his amex and lloyds cards

            Which is fraud.

            Charges will be reimbursed and kid will be ... well if my experience is anything to go by, the kid will be ignored because it turns out the bank won't initiate action with the police.

            The last time this sort of thing happened to me one of the store assistants being presented with my number called me because her spidey senses were tingling when the name on the shipping and the name on the card were different and the address on the card was in NY and the shopper was in California (several other businesses didn't figure that out, sadly for them). She told me that she had the name and address of the idiot trying to buy scuba gear from her and if the bank would care to contact her she would be happy to share.

            When I told the bank this I was informed that *I* would have to file a police report. In California, which is the other side of the country from me.

            So I just said "okay" and let the bank issue me a new card and rescind all the dodgy charges those less astute had accepted.

          3. Pascal Monett Silver badge

            @ psychonaut

            That sounds wierd to me. My personal experience in card renewal is that my MMORPG subscription is cut every time my VISA card gets renewed.

            I always have to wait until getting my new card to get the situation back to normal.

            1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

              Re: @ psychonaut

              In the UK the law is now that ongoing credit card payments must be cancelled if the cardholder says so. Admittedly last time I heard a BBC consumer program go at one of the banks on this, the bank were still trying to claim that this wasn't what the law said and refusing to comply. But then some banks still try to claim that you have to get refunds for incorrect Direct Debit transfers from the company that took it. Which is also a lie. The banks must refund you on the day you ask them to, and then sort out who the money belongs to later.

            2. Alistair
              Windows

              Re: @ psychonaut

              @Pascal, And this is why I hunt down WoW time cards rather than give them a CC number. Damn I can't wait for Blizz to get the BlizzCash cards out......

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